Author Topic: Lionel Messi (Read 922987 times)

markmywords · « **Reply #8600 on:** May 11, 2019, 07:50:08 pm »

Quote from: Broad Spectrum on May 11, 2019, 05:47:52 pm

Quote
Incredibly, Messi is the sixth highest scorer against the big six Premier League sides since notching his first in May 2009.

Sergio Aguero is in a league of his own on 52, leading Wayne Rooney, Jamie Vardy, Eden Hazard and Robin van Persie. Then comes Messi, despite only playing against the big six in European competition.

This was taken from an article before our match.

Incredible that he has outscored Cristiano Ronaldo against the big 6, when Ronaldo spent 4 yrs at man U!!!

PoetryInMotion · « **Reply #8601 on:** May 11, 2019, 07:50:46 pm »

Quote from: Iska on May 11, 2019, 05:42:51 pm

I’ve come to find these debates quite interesting actually - they’re a good window into what people put most value on. Personally I’ve realised what I go for is drama, the highest possible peak and amn’t interested in longevity particularly. Also like everyone else I basically think the best stuff is whatever was current when I was a teenager.

They’re a good window on people’s biases as well - somebody upthread was discounting half of Maradona’s career for being in a ‘piss-poor’ Argentine league. Like, how would anybody know? Most players played at home in those days, Argentina were the world champions, and the only time their clubs ever came near our clubs was in the Intercontinental Cup, where the South American sides won half of them.

Similar to Pele in Brazil. I have read articles from football historians that the Brazilian League then was much much stronger than it is now, and it seems logical. South American players were not rushing to European Leagues then, as much as they do now. Now, the moment you're spoken about as a prodigy, in come European sides to take you in. South American Leagues were pretty strong then.

So, yes. There's always context that is important.

PoetryInMotion · « **Reply #8602 on:** May 11, 2019, 07:53:33 pm »

Quote from: rushyman on May 11, 2019, 04:23:28 pm

Oh god please don’t tell me this has turned into soccer AM style ‘who’s better’ stuff

A debate for 8 year olds

I mean fucking hell guys, we really are better than this

Why is sharing football knowledge and discussing football history or experience about different players for 8 year olds/embarrassing in any way? It's what football historians do, it's what real football authors write about.

If you're comparing this to a tribal 'banter' culture 'who's better' argument, you're wrong. It's a proper discussion if you're interested in the details and look for them.

rushyman · « **Reply #8603 on:** May 11, 2019, 07:56:22 pm »

Quote from: PoetryInMotion on May 11, 2019, 07:50:46 pm

Similar to Pele in Brazil. I have read articles from football historians that the Brazilian League then was much much stronger than it is now, and it seems logical. South American players were not rushing to European Leagues then, as much as they do now. Now, the moment you're spoken about as a prodigy, in come European sides to take you in.

So, yes. There's always context that is important.

I think you give the debate far more credence than it deserves. I wish it was from the standpoint you both mention

But at this point it’s utter tribalism. I like Messi or ILike Ronaldo

They’ll see Ronaldo score an overhead kick and be devestated he did it not enjoy it for what it was as with the other way when Messi sits 3 defenders on there arse and dinks the keepers

They only care about what banner they fly under. It’s unbelievably pathetic

farawayred · « **Reply #8604 on:** May 11, 2019, 07:57:49 pm »

Quote from: markmywords on May 11, 2019, 07:50:08 pm

This was taken from an article before our match.

Incredible that he has outscored Cristiano Ronaldo against the big 6, when Ronaldo spent 4 yrs at man U!!!

But you are comparing a young Ronaldo and Messi in it's (extended) peak.

PoetryInMotion · « **Reply #8605 on:** May 11, 2019, 07:59:24 pm »

Quote from: rushyman on May 11, 2019, 07:56:22 pm

I think you give the debate far more credence than it deserves. I wish it was from the standpoint you both mention

But at this point it’s utter tribalism. I like Messi or ILike Ronaldo

They’ll see Ronaldo score an overhead kick and be devestated he did it not enjoy it for what it was as with the other way when Messi sits 3 defenders on there arse and dinks the keepers

They only care about what banner they fly under. It’s unbelievably pathetic

If you're referring to the average twitter culture or on sites where people just sign up to argue or 'banter', then I take your points.

What I'm saying is that the current discussion here at RAWK is unlike anything of that sort. We're bringing in various players that warrant to be in this discussion and weighing in the merits and demerits of each of them.

PoetryInMotion · « **Reply #8606 on:** May 11, 2019, 08:01:10 pm »

Quote from: farawayred on May 11, 2019, 07:57:49 pm

But you are comparing a young Ronaldo and Messi in it's (extended) peak.

That young Ronaldo was no slouch actually. His last season had an insane scoring record, especially for a winger (he had not become a full striker then). It was similar to what Salah did last season.

Maybe, that's why it's surprising that he hasn't scored more against the big sides according to this stat.

rushyman · « **Reply #8607 on:** May 11, 2019, 08:02:37 pm »

Quote from: PoetryInMotion on May 11, 2019, 07:59:24 pm

If you're referring to the average twitter culture or on sites where people just sign up to argue or 'banter', then I take your points.

What I'm saying is that the current discussion here at RAWK is unlike anything of that sort. We're bringing in various players that warrant to be in this discussion and weighing in the merits and demerits of each of them.

Fair play I shouldve known better

But my original comment was after a flurry of posts that stated to look just like the kind of mindless nonsense mentioned.

Coolie High · « **Reply #8608 on:** May 11, 2019, 08:02:42 pm »

Quote from: PoetryInMotion on May 10, 2019, 08:53:31 pm

I brought him up because of the off the pitch experience and impact he may have had on the team. Everyone is about Maradona, the leader, right? They had quality defenders on the pitch as well (I mentioned Ruggeri), and they only conceded 3 goals before the final in the 86 World Cup is completely relevant to what we are talking. It was not a one man show. Their defense was excellent & their tactical set-up was stable.

Which tactical set-up of Argentina during Messi's era was stable? I know the answer by the way. None. Zero. Nada.

The summer they got to the final? Messi had an all time great Dm in Mascherano playing at an elite level.

PoetryInMotion · « **Reply #8609 on:** May 11, 2019, 08:18:29 pm »

Quote from: Coolie High on May 11, 2019, 08:02:42 pm

The summer they got to the final? Messi had an all time great Dm in Mascherano playing at an elite level.

They weren't tactically that good, certainly nothing like Argentina in 1986, where they among the masters of 3-5-2 system.

In 2014, it was two great players playing out of their skins to get to the final (Masch & Messi). Look at their lineup. They had Romero, a slow and a struggling Demichelis who was a disaster at Man City at that time, an under-achieving Garay, Marcos fucking Rojo, under-achieving Lavezzi, Enzo nobody Perez and a choking Higuain. Zabaleta & Biglia were their only reliable players outside of Messi and Masch.

To be frank, this team had no business to be challenging that Germany team full of World Class players at their peaks then.

Fine margins in a final though, conceded in extra-time. If Higuain scored a couple of his chances, we'd be talking about that campaign and the game in a whole different context.

Although I agree that Sabella was better for Argentina than all the other disasters they had in and around that campaign in Maradona, Martino, Sampaoli and the likes. Pekerman was okay.

Xabi Gerrard · « **Reply #8610 on:** May 11, 2019, 10:09:36 pm »

Quote from: markmywords on May 11, 2019, 07:50:08 pm

This was taken from an article before our match.

Incredible that he has outscored Cristiano Ronaldo against the big 6, when Ronaldo spent 4 yrs at man U!!!

The stat is for May 2009 onwards, i.e. since Ronaldo was a Madrid/Juve player. Don’t think he’s played many English top 6 teams in that time.

farawayred · « **Reply #8611 on:** May 11, 2019, 10:44:11 pm »

Quote from: PoetryInMotion on May 11, 2019, 08:01:10 pm

That young Ronaldo was no slouch actually. His last season had an insane scoring record, especially for a winger (he had not become a full striker then). It was similar to what Salah did last season.

Maybe, that's why it's surprising that he hasn't scored more against the big sides according to this stat.

I don't disagree, in general. I just think that scoring against the "big teams" goes hand in hand with the ability to carry a team, and both are greatly enhanced by experience. It's all hypothetical, but I think that had Ronaldo gone to Madrid then United and a reversed order, he'd have been a lot more effective against the top six.

Lush is the best medicine... · « **Reply #8612 on:** May 11, 2019, 10:49:15 pm »

Don’t think Ronaldo played against arsenal since going to Madrid which is probably who messi scored most of them against

idontknow · « **Reply #8613 on:** May 12, 2019, 01:41:22 am »

Quote from: PoetryInMotion on May 11, 2019, 07:50:46 pm

Similar to Pele in Brazil. I have read articles from football historians that the Brazilian League then was much much stronger than it is now, and it seems logical. South American players were not rushing to European Leagues then, as much as they do now. Now, the moment you're spoken about as a prodigy, in come European sides to take you in. South American Leagues were pretty strong then.

So, yes. There's always context that is important.

From 1958 to 1970 all Brazilian players were playing in Brazil. And all at different teams. Leagues on top of leagues to decide who was the best. And for a World Cup squad of 22 they narrowed it from 60-odd. They still would have won. Santos won the whole caboodle 6 or so times when Pelé was there. Never won a thing before, and I think they won it again about 10 years ago. And that's without the friendly tours Santos did to Europe, boats all across Europe, 2 matches a day sometimes, and Pelé had to play, otherwise no money.

Once upon a time his playing schedule was online, always back up good stuff - it was gruelling to read, he played and scored in game after game.

Although Brazilians I know seem to prefer Garrincha. And certainly Maradona disses Pelé whenever he can, but not Garrincha, Garrincha would have nutmegged Diego, left the ball stationary, and walked off.

(Apologies for the accent keeps appearing on Pele, my phone does it, and maybe it should be there.)

markmywords · « **Reply #8614 on:** May 12, 2019, 08:07:04 am »

Quote from: Xabi Gerrard on May 11, 2019, 10:09:36 pm

The stat is for May 2009 onwards, i.e. since Ronaldo was a Madrid/Juve player. Don’t think he’s played many English top 6 teams in that time.

Fair enough..

But are you sure about that?

The articles I've read say reference that date as when Messi scored his 1st goal against English teams, but not that that was from when they started counting

If you are positive about it, then I will take your word for it

Xabi Gerrard · « **Reply #8615 on:** May 12, 2019, 09:31:53 am »

Quote from: markmywords on May 12, 2019, 08:07:04 am

Fair enough..

But are you sure about that?

The articles I've read say reference that date as when Messi scored his 1st goal against English teams, but not that that was from when they started counting

If you are positive about it, then I will take your word for it

Yeah I'm 99.99% certain of it mate - as well as the wording, the only players mentioned who have scored more than him are players who were active post 2009. Off the top of my head, Fowler and Henry would also have easily scored a lot more V the big 6 than the players mentioned (not that City and Spurs were 'big 6' pre 2009). I'm sure lots of other players from yesteryear (Owen, Shearer, Rush, Greaves, Charlton) also would have scored more.

mikey_LFC · « **Reply #8616 on:** May 19, 2019, 08:14:18 pm »

Messi has now scored more senior club career goals than Cristiano Ronaldo.

Messi - 602 goals in 686 games

Ronaldo - 601 goals in 805 games

El Lobo · « **Reply #8617 on:** May 19, 2019, 08:16:55 pm »

At last he has a legitimate claim to be better than Cristiano Ronaldo

mikey_LFC · « **Reply #8618 on:** May 19, 2019, 08:41:47 pm »

Quote from: Eel Lobo on May 19, 2019, 08:16:55 pm

At last he has a legitimate claim to be better than Cristiano Ronaldo

Clayton Bigsby · « **Reply #8619 on:** May 19, 2019, 10:01:49 pm »

Past it

idontknow · « **Reply #8620 on:** May 20, 2019, 03:54:49 am »

Quote from: mikey_LFC on May 19, 2019, 08:14:18 pm

Messi has now scored more senior club career goals than Cristiano Ronaldo.

Messi - 602 goals in 686 games

Ronaldo - 601 goals in 805 games

Show offs.

JLStretton · « **Reply #8621 on:** May 20, 2019, 05:42:46 am »

Don't see the fuss, can not see him making it in game and if he does drugs!!!!!!!!!

Suareznumber7 · « **Reply #8622 on:** May 20, 2019, 12:33:19 pm »

Quote from: mikey_LFC on May 19, 2019, 08:14:18 pm

Messi has now scored more senior club career goals than Cristiano Ronaldo.

Messi - 602 goals in 686 games

Ronaldo - 601 goals in 805 games

Pretty incredible really. Whatever you think of them (and I'm not a fan of Ronaldo at all), we have been pretty privileged to be able to watch their careers. They are both two of the best to ever play the game.

farawayred · « **Reply #8623 on:** May 20, 2019, 06:03:17 pm »

Quote from: Suareznumber7 on May 20, 2019, 12:33:19 pm

Pretty incredible really. Whatever you think of them (and I'm not a fan of Ronaldo at all), we have been pretty privileged to be able to watch their careers. They are both two of the best to ever play the game.

That's my take on things too. And I think that both having the (freakishly broad) peak of their careers at the same time fueled the competition and made them even better than what they would be without each other.

RyanBabel19 · « **Reply #8624 on:** May 20, 2019, 10:14:03 pm »

602 goals in 686 games is an insane return, shouldn't even be possible

Clayton Bigsby · « **Reply #8625 on:** May 21, 2019, 05:07:09 am »

Quote from: RyanBabel19 on May 20, 2019, 10:14:03 pm

602 goals in 686 games is an insane return, shouldn't even be possible

It isn't possible. We wont see it again. Football manager stats

deFacto please, you bastards · « **Reply #8626 on:** June 5, 2019, 11:15:18 pm »

Messi's 3 year old son taking the piss out of him

One-club man Messi, 31, who has netted 603 times for Barca in 687 outings, has three sons – Thiago (born 2012); Mateo (born 2015) and Ciro (born 2018) but reveals that his middle boy is an incredible wind-up merchant who uses Jurgen Klopp's side to goad his own father during family kickabouts.

Messi told TyCSports: “We played at home, and last time, we kicked it about, he would tell me, ‘I’m Liverpool , who beat you. You are Barça, and I’m Liverpool.’

Gnurglan · « **Reply #8627 on:** June 6, 2019, 01:18:34 pm »

Quote from: deFacto on June 5, 2019, 11:15:18 pm

Messi's 3 year old son taking the piss out of him

One-club man Messi, 31, who has netted 603 times for Barca in 687 outings, has three sons – Thiago (born 2012); Mateo (born 2015) and Ciro (born 2018) but reveals that his middle boy is an incredible wind-up merchant who uses Jurgen Klopp's side to goad his own father during family kickabouts.

Messi told TyCSports: “We played at home, and last time, we kicked it about, he would tell me, ‘I’m Liverpool , who beat you. You are Barça, and I’m Liverpool.’

soxfan · « **Reply #8628 on:** June 6, 2019, 01:58:20 pm »

Quote from: deFacto on June 5, 2019, 11:15:18 pm

Messi's 3 year old son taking the piss out of him

One-club man Messi, 31, who has netted 603 times for Barca in 687 outings, has three sons – Thiago (born 2012); Mateo (born 2015) and Ciro (born 2018) but reveals that his middle boy is an incredible wind-up merchant who uses Jurgen Klopp's side to goad his own father during family kickabouts.

Messi told TyCSports: “We played at home, and last time, we kicked it about, he would tell me, ‘I’m Liverpool , who beat you. You are Barça, and I’m Liverpool.’

Sign him up!

gazzalfc · « **Reply #8629 on:** July 4, 2019, 10:07:22 pm »

So hows your Summer been?

afc tukrish · « **Reply #8630 on:** July 4, 2019, 10:35:01 pm »

Quote from: gazzalfc on July 4, 2019, 10:07:22 pm

So hows your Summer been?

You should ask Lingard how his summer has beans...

Illmatic · « **Reply #8631 on:** July 4, 2019, 10:40:06 pm »

Quote from: mikey_LFC on May 19, 2019, 08:14:18 pm

Messi has now scored more senior club career goals than Cristiano Ronaldo.

Messi - 602 goals in 686 games

Ronaldo - 601 goals in 805 games

Quote from: Suareznumber7 on May 20, 2019, 12:33:19 pm

Ronaldo numbers are insane.

Well Messi what more can you say really? You looks at Messi's stats, you watch him play you really have ask yourself why there even a Messi/Ronaldo debate?

Ronaldo is complete freak but Messi is even better.
Pretty incredible really. Whatever you think of them (and I'm not a fan of Ronaldo at all), we have been pretty privileged to be able to watch their careers. They are both two of the best to ever play the game.

oojason · « **Reply #8632 on:** January 4, 2020, 02:49:44 pm »

If we didn't know better we'd think this is just twitter / social media bollocks - that someone has got their facts wrong or mis-typed on the calculator etc...

^ from https://twitter.com/SkyBet/status/1213173180719751169?s=09

but no... it's true. Immense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Messi

Samie · « **Reply #8633 on:** January 4, 2020, 02:54:07 pm »

Meh!

semit5 · « **Reply #8634 on:** January 4, 2020, 04:25:37 pm »

Quote from: Illmatic on July 4, 2019, 10:40:06 pm

Ronaldo numbers are insane.

Well Messi what more can you say really? You looks at Messi's stats, you watch him play you really have ask yourself why there even a Messi/Ronaldo debate?

Ronaldo is complete freak but Messi is even better.
Pretty incredible really. Whatever you think of them (and I'm not a fan of Ronaldo at all), we have been pretty privileged to be able to watch their careers. They are both two of the best to ever play the game.

Anyone else read this in Nessa’s voice?

oojason · « **Reply #8635 on:** February 22, 2020, 05:23:30 pm »

After today's 4 goals vs Eibar...

Messi 1st goal on 14' - https://90mingoals.me/dskf (Ray Hudson on comms

)
Messi 2nd goal on 37' - https://90mingoals.me/blsd
Messi 3rd goal on 40' - https://90mingoals.me/dd
Messi gets his 4th on 87 mins - https://90mingoals.me/whag

'696 goals.
306 assists.

Lionel Messi is the first player to ever achieve over 1,000 total goal contributions.'

^ https://twitter.com/SkyBet/status/1231262357025890304

Hazell · « **Reply #8636 on:** February 22, 2020, 05:25:37 pm »

Quote from: oojason on February 22, 2020, 05:23:30 pm

After today's 4 goals vs Eibar...

'696 goals.
306 assists.

Lionel Messi is the first player to ever achieve over 1,000 total goal contributions.'*

*After Pele**

**which included goals scored in his back garden

Pheel · « **Reply #8637 on:** February 22, 2020, 06:03:04 pm »

to be fair, we are lucky to be able to witness the sheer audacity of the pair of them. I think Ronaldo has had to work harder, Messi... blessed from whatever higher power may exist. We will all be talking about them both with our Kids and Grandkids. ( Robbo messed up Messi's hair though) That means Robbo is Boss! :-)

Marty 85 · « **Reply #8638 on:** February 22, 2020, 10:26:41 pm »

Quote from: Pheel on February 22, 2020, 06:03:04 pm

to be fair, we are lucky to be able to witness the sheer audacity of the pair of them. I think Ronaldo has had to work harder, Messi... blessed from whatever higher power may exist. We will all be talking about them both with our Kids and Grandkids. ( Robbo messed up Messi's hair though) That means Robbo is Boss! :-)

That would be human growth hormone [emoji382]

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

SamAteTheRedAcid · « **Reply #8639 on:** February 24, 2020, 04:46:22 pm »

Quote from: Marty 85 on February 22, 2020, 10:26:41 pm

That would be human growth hormone [emoji382]

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/741027/systematic-review-effects-growth-hormone-athletic-performance
Not according to the science.

He's just a genius with the ball. Drugs can't make you do what he does. It's not the running, or the athletic component to his game. It's the vision and the magic.