Topic: Are we punching above our weight?

[alvaro]

Right now we have regressed to the level we belong which is top 6 but we overachieved so much during the first 11 games that we have a good chance of winning top 4. After those 11 games we have  earned 40 points from 23 games which is top 6 material but not good enough for the top 4 in any way.
For me having more than 70 points in this season would mean a clear step in the right direction which should be a cause for optimism in the long run. Finishing with more than 75 would mean that we could challenge for big honours next season with a couple of additions.

Right now we dont really know where we stand becasue we still need to see if the players have any bottle or not, we dont know if they have the right mentality for the last few games.

[alvaro]

Our results against the top 7 say it all, on our day we have the best team in the league.    The team that wins the league has to be "on its day maybe 30 out of 38 days".   We need a psychological overhaul of our approach against many of the so called lesser lights, and we have lacked the strength in depth, maybe 4 or 5 more first team players would have put another 8-10 points on the board.

A third decent central defender would have us with top 4 locked.

[MrRaptorTurtle]

Punching above our weight?
We're Liverpool fucking Football Club.
If anything we're punching below it!

[Gnurglan]

A third decent central defender would have us with top 4 locked.

I wish it was that simple. We are strange in the way that we have conceded so many goals, yet a key problem has been to open up the most defensive sides. Even if we've managed to score lots of goals in total...

[rocco]

I wish it was that simple. We are strange in the way that we have conceded so many goals, yet a key problem has been to open up the most defensive sides. Even if we've managed to score lots of goals in total...

Seems we concede a high percentage of goals on target against us ?

[jamie_c]

Our results against the top 7 say it all, on our day we have the best team in the league.    The team that wins the league has to be "on its day maybe 30 out of 38 days".   We need a psychological overhaul of our approach against many of the so called lesser lights, and we have lacked the strength in depth, maybe 4 or 5 more first team players would have put another 8-10 points on the board.

completely disagree with this, the problem against shit teams is tactical not mental. 

We can't break down bus parkers and the defence always looks bad on the break/ set pieces.  Spurs came to anfield and played a high line against Mane!! No surprise they got turned over with that approach.

The team structure needs to change, we need a more defensive shape as the results against the top 6 are unsustainable and we need to find a way to win against defensive teams.

[Gnurglan]

Seems we concede a high percentage of goals on target against us ?

Except when we play the best sides. Then we're focused.

[Day1983]

No, we should be doing better as a club.

[Suareznumber7]

Except when we play the best sides. Then we're focused.

I don't think it's about being focused as much as it is tactics.  We tend to send a lot of players into attack against the lesser sides which doesn't leave any cover for our CB's who tend to be a bit rash at times.  Against the best sides we aren't quite as open so it's easier for us to defend. 

[thejbs]

Punching above our weight?
We're Liverpool fucking Football Club.
If anything we're punching below it!

This is the bravado that other teams' fans laugh at.

We haven't won the league in over two decades.  Haven't won a big trophy since 2005/6.  We've finished in the top 4 once since 2009/10, including a mid-table finish last season. We have, arguably, the 6th best squad in the league. 

If we finish 3rd with this squad, we'll have done very well.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

the title is unrealistic and will be a bonus if we ever do win it. Don't need unwarranted pressure on Klopp if he can make us a consistent top 4 team before he leaves that would be acceptable.

The title is "unrealistic"?

In what time-scale are you imagining? 

Because it reads like you think we'll never win it again, in which case you may as well give up on following the reds.

[Anfield Kopite]

Punching above our weight?
We're Liverpool fucking Football Club.
If anything we're punching below it!

I understand where you are coming from but come on mate. We finished 8th last season with 60 points. Now I agree that was punching under our weight. But then most of our rivals spent some money in the summer and we had a negative nett spend. This meant that although our starting 11 probably improved our squad depth was seriously diminished. So at the start of this campaign I expected a small improvement. Maybe 65 points and finishing around about 6th or 7th. If we get top 4 (3rd would be better) then we will have punched above our weight squad strength wise. Some decent investment in the summer and we can improve again. I'm happy with our season.

[Kopendscorer]

Punching above our weight?
We're Liverpool fucking Football Club.
If anything we're punching below it!

Exactly !!

[Kopendscorer]

This is the bravado that other teams' fans laugh at.

We haven't won the league in over two decades.  Haven't won a big trophy since 2005/6.  We've finished in the top 4 once since 2009/10, including a mid-table finish last season. We have, arguably, the 6th best squad in the league. 

If we finish 3rd with this squad, we'll have done very well.
But we are Liverpool Football Club.

[Kopendscorer]

Agreed mate it's a great season as we rarely finish top 4,  the title is unrealistic and will be a bonus if we ever do win it. Don't need unwarranted pressure on Klopp if he can make us a consistent top 4 team before he leaves that would be acceptable.

Loser

[Gerry83]

We are punching above our weight in my opinion in terms of resources others have and wages they are able to pay. On the pitch we have a devastating attack and the pressing game we'd seen in the first quarter of the season was almost impossible to live with for any other team in the league.

Where we are consistently let down is both the stength of the squad and the back 5 and probably the midfield to an extent. I think if we are to make strides we need 2 new fullbacks, a centre back,one in midfield, a winger and a striker. 3 of those would slot straight into the first team and the other 2-3 at the expense of Sturridge and Klavan (and Sakho)... and maybe Lucas but we cant go into next season short on numbers or with the same back 5 that plays every week for us.

[stockdam]

I think we are about where we should be. Spurs are over-achieving compared to their budget and squad. Chelsea and City are about where they should be. Utd are under-achieving as they have spent more than anyone but still can't defend. Arsenal are slightly under achieving but they need more investment in their first team.

We have Lallana, Firmino, Coutinho, Mane, Sturridge and Origi up front. That's as good a bunch of forwards as anyone. We now need to strengthen in some areas and we'll march forward.

[Haggis36]

We are punching above our weight in my opinion in terms of resources others have and wages they are able to pay.

I think this is a common misconception - in our most recent set of accounts we had (iirc) the third highest wage bill in the league, above City, Arsenal and Spurs did we not?

We have the ability to pay big wages (see Lovren's new contract) but I don't think we're particularly smart about who and how much we pay or how we reward certain players (out of interest, it'd be interesting to see the cumulative wages of our current first choice back 5 compared to other top 6 clubs, given how shite we are defensively. I daresay it might make quite grim reading...).

Another problem we have is the way in which we structure wage offers - new players generally aren't offered big wages to join, with us instead waiting until players have performed for us before rewarding them. It's a nice idea, and players do usually do well out of it in the event they contribute, but it's somewhat romantic and means we quite often miss out on the very top bracket of players where there is any competition.

[Mighty_Red]

Been meaning to reply to this one as it has been a bone of contention for a while. The answers should be obvious - if we are talking about challenging for the title then yes we would be punching above our weight. If we are talking about challenging for a top 4 place then no we are absolutely where we should be.

There are two distinct groups in the top 6 from a financial point of view:
- Utd, City & Chelsea - These 3 have financial power that none of the rest have. The source of this money may be debatable but since nothing has been done by the authorities thus far it will simply be something we have to deal with. They can afford to buy/outbid anyone but as we have seen in the last few years, all of them can be beaten.
- Spurs, Arsenal & ourselves - We are all around the same level financially. Yes, the exact order may change depending on the exact year and Arsenal may have a little bit more based on a bigger stadium & regular CL but we are not talking about a vast difference.

We should be challenging for a top 4 place every season without fail. Yes, that doesn't mean that we would necessarily achieve it every year but we should be in the mix. If you look back on the last 5-6 seasons you will find that our poor points totals have been the reason we have finished where we have and not because other teams have done unbeatable jobs. In the last two seasons we could've achieved CL qualification with 70 points but we were even worse than the rest.

As we discussed in a Paul Tompkins thread a few years ago, in order for us to challenge for the title everything needs to go for us and that includes the top 3 playing below their level. Spurs have shown it is possible to stay at a high level two years running, and we can do the same but only if we correct the large issues we have in the squad right now.

[CraigDS]

I'd actually put ourselves and Arsenal separate to Spurs, as we've both vastly bigger resources than they have.

[PeterTheRed ...]

I think that we are slightly overachieving, considering that our manager has been at the club for less than 20 months, and only had one summer to rebuild the squad. From our starters, only Mane, Wijnaldum and Matip are his signings. The likes of Karius and Grujic are projects for the future, and Klavan is only a cheap stop gap. I expect that we will see further improvement next season, with Klopp adding another 3-4 of his players to the team, but I am not expecting to see us in full force next season. Maybe in the 2018/19 season.

[DanA]

I still think we aren't quite properly balanced if we'd have had Mane without AFCON and his injury we'd probably be fighting with Tottenham for 2nd spot, but without him, the squad has no ability to break down defenses.  We need at least one more in his style if not two.

We're punching above our weight according to the wage bill, we're probably on par in terms of performances but IMO we are punching well below our weight compared to the talent we have. I think with a few tweaks to the squad we can be competing for the title rather than top 4.

[ToneLa]

I think that we are slightly overachieving, considering that our manager has been at the club for less than 20 months, and only had one summer to rebuild the squad. From our starters, only Mane, Wijnaldum and Matip are his signings. The likes of Karius and Grujic are projects for the future, and Klavan is only a cheap stop gap. I expect that we will see further improvement next season, with Klopp adding another 3-4 of his players to the team, but I am not expecting to see us in full force next season. Maybe in the 2018/19 season.

I'm absolutely buzzing at the idea of a team that's mostly Klopp's picks. I'm sure a few of our existing players can make the grade, but I don't think Klopp's stamp has been made on the team yet.

It'll take a while to happen but when it does I think it'll be amazing.

[kingkenny79]

if we ar punching above our weigth, why oh why we have dreadful records against teams that have less money than us.

[ollick]

if we ar punching above our weigth, why oh why we have dreadful records against teams that have less money than us.

Because it is easier for them to sit back knowing we don't have the depth in squad to either change the legs or change the plan.  I think that we should be beating those teams on paper but it isn't always that easy. Also think that Klopp has made some mistakes in formation/subs that haven't helped either.

As someone above said another 4 signings of Klopp type players and I think we will be a totally different beast next season and could easily see us adding 7/9 points to whatever we finish on this season as well as domestic cup.

[The North Bank]

I dont like this question, it limits teams. There is always more that a club can do, to improve.

[jepovic]

I think we are about where we should be. Spurs are over-achieving compared to their budget and squad. Chelsea and City are about where they should be. Utd are under-achieving as they have spent more than anyone but still can't defend. Arsenal are slightly under achieving but they need more investment in their first team.

Looking at the CL performance the last few years, I would argue that teams like ManC and ManU are punching far below their weight. Last season was an exceptionally poor PL generation, but this is hardly stellar either. Liverpool 08/09 would cruise through to the title in comparison.

We're doing ok, but not more. It will take time to renovate the team after years of lousy management since Rafa left.

The key positive is that the recent signings have made a positive impact on the team.

We need a few more good signings like Mane to get back where we belong.

[Mighty_Red]

I'd actually put ourselves and Arsenal separate to Spurs, as we've both vastly bigger resources than they have.

Depends on whether you mean resources to spend on the team or overall. Remember Spurs are spunking £750M on a new stadium so they are obviously well funded (at least in terms of taking on and servicing the huge debt). Hopefully this debt will mean that they cannot spend big but we don't really know whether we can either hence grouping us into a similar bracket. In fact, both our plans are pretty similar based on a manager who can develop the side without spending crazy money. They are just a little further down the road of implementing his vision than we are.

Arsenal should have more than both of us but they have massive issues both on and off the pitch which need to be resolved before they can properly go forward.