Topic: Thousands at Hong Kong protest as Occupy Central is launched

[Redcap]

Yes, those seem like reasonable questions.

I don't know if there's anything to the theories that Beijing insiders were stirring up the crowd. It's fairly difficult to maintain the discipline in any group of people as large as this, and there are going to be some that want to go further than others. I wouldn't rule it out, but I just don't think it's a necessary condition for what's happened.

I do think it's reasonably likely that the HK Government (directed by Beijing or otherwise) anticipated the possibility that if left unattended, the LegCo would get stormed by some of the more radical protesters, and that would be more harmful to them than the Government.

[mercury]

This is the second episode of the Occupy Central in 2014.

I very seldom talk about politics after 2014, cos what happening now is inevitable.   The line was crossed back then, and each episode would only escalate until the point of no return. 

For those who are interested, not much change to the political system since then.  But distrust has festered as key people instigating or leading the 2014 movement were tried and handed prison sentence, plus a few Legislators being disqualified for being disrespectful vs Beijing when they took the oath into office.

Is it fair?  Depends on where you stand.   "White Terror", some said.  "They did break the law, knowingly", others pointed out. 

Talking about violent instigators in the crowd by Beijing really miss the point and what's happening  here. 

Most Hong Kong people (60%, if we reference the historical vote distribution of  Legislative Council direct elections) and the press in particular are condoning or at least have great sympathies what the protestors are doing and even protect them, e.g. the press always cover faces of protestors in their photos of violent scenes now. No one dare to point finger at the vandalism at the Legislative Council except in very very mild terms, but great admiration afforded to those leaving a few dollars for taking drinks from the canteen, without mentioning the damage to the canteen (and LegCo) and its business as a result of the vandalism. 

This time round, the Beijing camp is the one  believing there are instigators amongst the protestors to escalate the protest (whether it is true or not, one may decide oneself.)   

The police did not "dare" to - some may say it's a tactic - counter the protestors  after they were severely criticized for using excessive force when they fired rubber bullets on 12 Jun.  The protestors did flow stone and things and use force at the police.  But many saw police use excessive force.  The police are demonised and even using a baton is not on for most people now.

The protestors are now going around the city, picking new protest spots each week.  Summer holidays so it will go on at least for a while.

[Max_powers]

China has a lot of soft power across the globe through trade, foreign investment and support of some questionable foreign governments and dictators. They can do whatever they want in Hong Kong and I doubt that they would face much opposition around the globe other than some negative press and few politicians telling them to place nice. I would argue they have taken over from US as biggest and most influential superpower across the globe.

I mean look at a case like Xinjiang, it fits the definition of ethnic cleansing. Yet there have been no sanctions against them. There have't been any major powers or UN holding them accountable. Even most of the Muslim countries hasn't kicked a fuss.

[classycarra]

Huge protests today.Police are teargassing indiscriminately. Blockades are up all around the city. Protests in Admiralty being kettled into the park.

Two taxis have tried to drive through protests (I don't think at life threatening speeds) now - needs knocking off before someone gets killed. Police have given triad thugs a free reign to hurt protesters and other civilians so while protesters are hugely peaceful it's not a leap to think people could take justice into their own hands knowing the police won't.

Things are in a fine balance tonight. It won't take much to really shift that.

[Kashinoda]

It's been escalating week on week for the last 2 months now.

Triads running amock on the order of Police, people being run over, beaten up, stabbed and attacked with fireworks. China releasing military-heavy propaganda videos in Cantonese.

Police have absolutely no control and are run by absolute morons. China must be very close to deploying armed forces there.

This is the chief of police: 


I have friends out there, spent the best part of my youth there and honestly I'm scared about what's going to happen. Brexit is really nothing in comparison.

[Kashinoda]

Right on schedule:

China warns Hong Kong protesters not to 'play with fire'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-49246304

[classycarra]

Hadn't realised Lam was using as extreme rhetoric as this part:

She also accused activists of using the extradition bill as a cover for their real goal, which was to "destroy Hong Kong".

And while the police's cowardice, contempt for protest, and encouraging/appeasing of triad thugs, was clear I had no idea the public face of the police was so childish. Thanks for sharing those pictures.

Hard to see next steps, because the protests aren't stopping and there is no sign of the police being reigned in. If there was a functioning international diplomatic community right now, I think that China would have more quickly relented again after the suspension of the bill and withdrawn it. They were clearly rattled.

Sustained economic harm during protests has probably got to remain the goal.

[zabadoh]

Good luck to all the HK RAWKites out there.

[Giono]

Hadn't realised Lam was using as extreme rhetoric as this part:

She also accused activists of using the extradition bill as a cover for their real goal, which was to "destroy Hong Kong".

And while the police's cowardice, contempt for protest, and encouraging/appeasing of triad thugs, was clear I had no idea the public face of the police was so childish. Thanks for sharing those pictures.

Hard to see next steps, because the protests aren't stopping and there is no sign of the police being reigned in. If there was a functioning international diplomatic community right now, I think that China would have more quickly relented again after the suspension of the bill and withdrawn it. They were clearly rattled.

Sustained economic harm during protests has probably got to remain the goal.

You are right about the absence of an international diplomatic community. Trump is in a trade war with China but says nothing about Hing Kong, etc. Any sane US administration would be ratcheting up the pressure out of shared values or out of self-interest.

[Max_powers]

You are right about the absence of an international diplomatic community. Trump is in a trade war with China but says nothing about Hing Kong, etc. Any sane US administration would be ratcheting up the pressure out of shared values or out of self-interest.

Problem with someone like Trump bringing this issue forward is that China can just do some whatabouterry and point out Trump's treatment of migrants and refugees.

A big issue with what Trump has done domestically is that it takes away US's ability to act like they have moral integrity in front of the international community.

Like you I am surprised he hasn't done more either but him talking or tweeting about it won't have changed much anyway.

US is quite isolated nowadays internationally.

[classycarra]

Problem with someone like Trump bringing this issue forward is that China can just do some whatabouterry and point out Trump's treatment of migrants and refugees.

Chinese government have cited Nancy Pelosi and Jeremy C*nt as being provocateurs over some innocuous comments, so it's happening anyway even without the orange one tweeting. As you say, that'd do no good. But the US State Department and particularly the UK Foreign Office would have been working hard on this ten years ago. Not any more.

[Max_powers]

Chinese government have cited Nancy Pelosi and Jeremy C*nt as being provocateurs over some innocuous comments, so it's happening anyway even without the orange one tweeting. As you say, that'd do no good. But the US State Department and particularly the UK Foreign Office would have been working hard on this ten years ago. Not any more.

He is an isolationist and probably more than likely he knows fuck all about what is happening in HK.

The only reason why he may want his government to be involved would be if he can get some PR out of it, or if he could use it to taunt China and rally some domestic support for his trade policies.

See his handling of NK situation for example, there has been no progress but he got some photo ops out of it so he keeps hanging out with his buddy Kim.

[Kashinoda]

No one wants to piss off China unfortunately.

As far as I'm aware it's only our MPs who've spoken out about this, but no real follow through for the time being and I don't hold my breath. It's the UK's fault they're in this situation anyway.

At the same time I'm not sure what China can actually do here, the clamp down hasn't worked at all and has only rejuvenated the population further. These aren't just youths any more, mass protestants from the bankers, lawyers, airport staff and more recently.

If China decides to have a more substantial involvement which involves the military they would effectively ruin Hong Kong as an international business hub, it's still a large player and a gateway to the mainland - it's not as unimportant as China would like it to be. For all their stern words and propaganda so far they're still reliant on corrupt police and hiring thugs.

I have a (maybe optimistic) feeling that there might be a back-down from the Hong Kong government over time, it's reached a point where that's all you can do. Short of arresting the entire population.

Either way Hong Kong has changed forever.

[Kashinoda]

If China decides to have a more substantial involvement which involves the military they would effectively ruin Hong Kong as an international business hub, it's still a large player and a gateway to the mainland - it's not as unimportant as China would like it to be. For all their stern words and propaganda so far they're still reliant on corrupt police and hiring thugs.

Nevermind.

China amasses troops on the border, hoping this is yet more propaganda.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/bKjTmJM5tdU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/bKjTmJM5tdU</a>

[mercury]

Nevermind.

China amasses troops on the border, hoping this is yet more propaganda.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/bKjTmJM5tdU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/bKjTmJM5tdU</a>

An opinion piece for interest:  https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3020395/hong-kong-needs-clean-its-self-made-mess-because-beijing

The writer is quite senior and has good connections.

My another two pence:  a pinch of salt re media reports or social media.  The media have taken sides heavily in their reporting.   Anything that reflect badly on the police is being taken as truths -- I'm not even disproving those allegations, just that people are so desperate to reaffirm their own belief that the police is evil, they'll gazump anything that is bad about them without thinking or questioning .  The protests have ceased to be peaceful or rational for a long time.  I can understand why it has taken a turn to violence (yes a sad state of affairs, massive mis-governance), but please do not dress it up or for us HK people to be so self illuded as to call the protests peaceful or rational.   

By the way, the young turks on the social media are called "scorched the earth faction" for a reason, and "攬炒", meaning everyone sinks together (probably they want to do it to China, not only HK), are the phrase they use.

[Kashinoda]

An opinion piece for interest:  https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3020395/hong-kong-needs-clean-its-self-made-mess-because-beijing

The writer is quite senior and has good connections.

My another two pence:  a pinch of salt re media reports or social media.  The media have taken sides heavily in their reporting.   Anything that reflect badly on the police is being taken as truths -- I'm not even disproving those allegations, just that people are so desperate to reaffirm their own belief that the police is evil, they'll gazump anything that is bad about them without thinking or questioning .  The protests have ceased to be peaceful or rational for a long time.  I can understand why it has taken a turn to violence (yes a sad state of affairs, massive mis-governance), but please do not dress it up or for us HK people to be so self illuded as to call the protests peaceful or rational.   

By the way, the young turks on the social media are called "scorched the earth faction" for a reason, and "攬炒", meaning everyone sinks together (probably they want to do it to China, not only HK), are the phrase they use.

When police firing tear gas into indoor areas and shooting people at point blank range when they're already stationary and have no where to run - it's hard to call the police anything other than incompetent. I could list lots more, no one's saying they're evil but they have absolutely no control right now.

There are still many peaceful and rational protests, to place an umbrella (pardon the pun) over the whole movement isn't really possible.

[bahrainexpat]

Carrie Lam facing a hostile press conference today.
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/hong-kong-leader-carrie-lam-grilled-at-press-conference

[classycarra]

An opinion piece for interest:  https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3020395/hong-kong-needs-clean-its-self-made-mess-because-beijing

The writer is quite senior and has good connections.

My another two pence:  a pinch of salt re media reports or social media.  The media have taken sides heavily in their reporting.   Anything that reflect badly on the police is being taken as truths -- I'm not even disproving those allegations, just that people are so desperate to reaffirm their own belief that the police is evil, they'll gazump anything that is bad about them without thinking or questioning .  The protests have ceased to be peaceful or rational for a long time.  I can understand why it has taken a turn to violence (yes a sad state of affairs, massive mis-governance), but please do not dress it up or for us HK people to be so self illuded as to call the protests peaceful or rational.   

By the way, the young turks on the social media are called "scorched the earth faction" for a reason, and "攬炒", meaning everyone sinks together (probably they want to do it to China, not only HK), are the phrase they use.

I don't think people think all police are evil. If generalising, one could say that they're out of their depth, scared, mismanaged, cowardly, indiscriminate, acting out their cowardice through aggression and violence. I've no doubt some reporters are taking having tear gas fired at them (not into them) and being on the receiving end of rubber bullets and batons personally, and taking sides against police brutality. Who can blame them? That doesn't mean one can't analyse sources and video and come to a more reasonable conclusion about what is happening (more reasonable than just trying to cast doubt on all reporting, with your generalisation "the media have taken sides heavily in their reporting"). You apply the same kind of soft generalisation to cast aspersions on the entirety of those protesting by saying it's "turned violent" and not "rational" - which you should be wary of doing in case people reading your post make the same mistake you accuse HKers of doing with police where "anything that reflect badly on the [protesters] is being taken as truths" instead of understanding how peaceful the vast majority of protests have been.

It's perhaps worth applying that same pinch to your opinion piece. She is suggesting this is Hong Kong's own "self made mess", while hyperlinking to the Extradition Bill page - so Beijing has played no role in that bill? Or in the way HK executive is governing? Is that accurate? Seemed like a whitewashing job to me. I don't know enough to say this with great confidence, but it reads like propoganda. The referring to the "embattled police force" while in the same sentence downplaying the police allowing (and politicians encouraging) thugs attacking civilians with weapons on the MTR as "much-criticised handling" with no reference to the brutal violence is telling

[mercury]

When police firing tear gas into indoor areas and shooting people at point blank range when they're already stationary and have no where to run - it's hard to call the police anything other than incompetent. I could list lots more, no one's saying they're evil but they have absolutely no control right now.

There are still many peaceful and rational protests, to place an umbrella (pardon the pun) over the whole movement isn't really possible.

All I want to say earlier, the story is not one sided (and yes those have power have more responsibility).   I really really abhor the mentality that moral high ground can justify any action.  Same for police.  Same for protestors.   

With that, I rest my case.

[Trada]

Getting bad at the airport they think they have caught an under cover cop, and they have cable tied him to a trolley and some people are hitting him.

[Kashinoda]

British consulate worker missing, suspected arrested at Chinese border on 8th of August:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-49403619

Twitter says Chinese government using over 900 accounts to "deliberately and specifically attempting to sow political discord in Hong Kong, including undermining the legitimacy and political positions of the protest movement on the ground."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49402222

Chinese propaganda strategy leaked, translation in the description:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/csj4ca/chinas_propaganda_strategy_for_the_hong_kong/

Two police officers torture a 62 year old man in his hospital bed:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/cstj3u/hong_kong_police_tortured_a_patient_in_hospital/

[classycarra]

British consulate worker missing, suspected arrested at Chinese border on 8th of August:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-49403619

12 days ago, and only today the UK foreign office is saying they are "seeking further information". We are not a serious diplomatic country anymore.

[JovaJova]

All I want to say earlier, the story is not one sided (and yes those have power have more responsibility).   I really really abhor the mentality that moral high ground can justify any action.  Same for police.  Same for protestors.   

With that, I rest my case.

The protests / riots or whatever you want to label them are sadly out of control this week and have essentially paralysed the city.

I find the whole thing rather hopeless. You have a mix of teenagers / students and other young protesters who have effectively been brought up with Western values and therefore struggle immensely with their Chinese identity but are faced with a future where amongst other things they will never be able to buy their own home in their own country. These kids are so angry at their perceived lack of hope in their future that they are resorting destroying their own country and throwing away their futures.

On the other side you have a police force who have never really had to do anything because this territory has so little crime and are therefore extraordinarily under equipped to deal with the level of violence and destruction they are currently facing.

Mix this together and you get the current situation where the rioters have got away with abusing the rule of law for so long now that they believe they can do and destroy whatever the hell they want. The police are so ridiculously restrained that these cat and mouse battles just play out on the streets every night while the rioters just continue to destroy the city.

How can it all end ? The rioters have not shown any signs of wanting to negotiate which is hilarious and ironic given this is all masquerading as a cry for democracy. The police are too scared to actually police for fear of how it will be perceived. So on and on it will go until the sad day when these rioters push the police over the edge and a bigger tragedy occurs.

[Gnurglan]

The protests / riots or whatever you want to label them are sadly out of control this week and have essentially paralysed the city.

I find the whole thing rather hopeless. You have a mix of teenagers / students and other young protesters who have effectively been brought up with Western values and therefore struggle immensely with their Chinese identity but are faced with a future where amongst other things they will never be able to buy their own home in their own country. These kids are so angry at their perceived lack of hope in their future that they are resorting destroying their own country and throwing away their futures.

Sounds bad.

Is it because HK has become too expensive? I have been told lots of rich people from China have bought things in HK. Plus these people have been using HK to move their money out of China.
Is there any truth in the view that China's real intent is to basically prevent that from happening, which is why they want to bring those people to justice in China?

[demain]

Sounds bad.

Is it because HK has become too expensive? I have been told lots of rich people from China have bought things in HK. Plus these people have been using HK to move their money out of China.
Is there any truth in the view that China's real intent is to basically prevent that from happening, which is why they want to bring those people to justice in China?

Yes, HK is beastly expensive because of the size constraint and demographics. The cost of living is part of the problem but I don't think it's a fundamental issue. HK has always been expensive by several multiples compared with the mainland.

The second point is frankly not all that important: HK, Malaysia, Singapore, UK, and even Australia have all been viable avenues to funnel money out of the mainland. In fact, that's the whole rationale behind HK being established as a global financial centre in the first place. It's hardly a secret and HK's financial status has actually allowed China to more efficiently enact monetary controls on the mainland without impacting trade flows so significantly that it was detrimental to economic growth. It wasn't in their interest that HK lost its status as a key financial centre.

However, the problem now is that this has become an issue of identity and culture which can potentially impact the level of control imparted by the centre. They cannot afford the status quo to continue and will probably need to further liberalize regulations in Shanghai or Shenzhen to reduce HK's impact on the economy.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

However, the problem now is that this has become an issue of identity and culture which can potentially impact the level of control imparted by the centre. They cannot afford the status quo to continue and will probably need to further liberalize regulations in Shanghai or Shenzhen to reduce HK's impact on the economy.

Yep,  and China had already tried to start that process way before this issue,  with the Shanghai -  Shenzhen -  HK Stock Connect among other things like introducing the offshore yuan (CNH).

Ultimately how quickly China is willing to remove controls on the yuan (mainland),  ease of transfer,  will play a big part in the speed of development of alternative financial hubs on the mainland. Right now it's only their banks and approved participants that are part of the CNY trading mechanism,  set daily within a 2% band to the dollar, transfers out strictly controlled: all factors that inhibit a financial port on the mainland.

[Gnurglan]

Yes, HK is beastly expensive because of the size constraint and demographics. The cost of living is part of the problem but I don't think it's a fundamental issue. HK has always been expensive by several multiples compared with the mainland.

The second point is frankly not all that important: HK, Malaysia, Singapore, UK, and even Australia have all been viable avenues to funnel money out of the mainland. In fact, that's the whole rationale behind HK being established as a global financial centre in the first place. It's hardly a secret and HK's financial status has actually allowed China to more efficiently enact monetary controls on the mainland without impacting trade flows so significantly that it was detrimental to economic growth. It wasn't in their interest that HK lost its status as a key financial centre.

However, the problem now is that this has become an issue of identity and culture which can potentially impact the level of control imparted by the centre. They cannot afford the status quo to continue and will probably need to further liberalize regulations in Shanghai or Shenzhen to reduce HK's impact on the economy.

Thanks. I just happened to read about HK yesterday. It was about universtity students that couldn't/shouldn't go anymore because of safety concerns. Knowing how media sometimes twist news mean it's hard to say how bad things really are.

Do you think it's likely that they will liberalize Shanghai? From my perspective that sounds good. Unfortunately it's not something I'd expect to happen. The other option I can think of is to apply a tough stance and basically 'invade' HK to end the protests.

[demain]

Thanks. I just happened to read about HK yesterday. It was about universtity students that couldn't/shouldn't go anymore because of safety concerns. Knowing how media sometimes twist news mean it's hard to say how bad things really are.

Do you think it's likely that they will liberalize Shanghai? From my perspective that sounds good. Unfortunately it's not something I'd expect to happen. The other option I can think of is to apply a tough stance and basically 'invade' HK to end the protests.

They have to liberalize the economy and ease trade restrictions, they have no other choice. It won't be an overnight process, but I expect over the next decade or so you'll see incremental easing of controls.

As surfer alluded to above, they have been slowly moving to introduce mechanisms to trade the yuan offshore to reduce reliance on the dollar peg.

In addition, there are lots of free trade zones that are being earmarked to attract foreign capital. For example, Shanghai has allocated zones with beneficial tax treatment and less stringent custom controls for foreign companies to set up manufacturing facilities. Tesla has been on a major recruitment drive in China over the past few months as it's taken advantage of these incentives to set up a giant manufacturing plant outside Shanghai where they'll produce about 250,000 electric cars annually.

You'll see similar incentives for financial institutions to move staff from Hong Kong to Shanghai or Beijing over the next few years.

[mercury]

The protests / riots or whatever you want to label them are sadly out of control this week and have essentially paralysed the city.

I find the whole thing rather hopeless. You have a mix of teenagers / students and other young protesters who have effectively been brought up with Western values and therefore struggle immensely with their Chinese identity but are faced with a future where amongst other things they will never be able to buy their own home in their own country. These kids are so angry at their perceived lack of hope in their future that they are resorting destroying their own country and throwing away their futures.

On the other side you have a police force who have never really had to do anything because this territory has so little crime and are therefore extraordinarily under equipped to deal with the level of violence and destruction they are currently facing.

Mix this together and you get the current situation where the rioters have got away with abusing the rule of law for so long now that they believe they can do and destroy whatever the hell they want. The police are so ridiculously restrained that these cat and mouse battles just play out on the streets every night while the rioters just continue to destroy the city.

How can it all end ? The rioters have not shown any signs of wanting to negotiate which is hilarious and ironic given this is all masquerading as a cry for democracy. The police are too scared to actually police for fear of how it will be perceived. So on and on it will go until the sad day when these rioters push the police over the edge and a bigger tragedy occurs.

All true.  "this is all masquerading as a cry for democracy" makes me especially sad.  It's very hard in the midst of violence and the destruction of our own city by our own people.  The destruction is not only buildings, the rails or the economy.  Something is very broken in the soul. 

A couple of days ago a young rioter is diagnosed as brain dead from a fall from a building.  He's being held as a martyr by the rioters and their supporters, notably the media and all those hosts of radio shows, and these people have been trying their best to tag the blame on the police, despite CCTV  shows that there is no police in sight, no tear gas being shot, at the time of the incident.   Today, a 70-old man died from a brick thrown by rioters in a scuffle between the black clothes (the rioters) and  common people.  A week ago a 57-year man suffered 60 degree burns after being set alight in petrol by a rioter for daring to stop them destroying the MTR station and said I'm a Chinese.  Yet, the rioters as well as their supporters /media just brush all these aside, barely mentioning them.   Almost Orwellian but in reverse.  And these people are so very eager to lap up rumours and "fake" reports , just to believe in what they want to believe to build their "momentum".   They attack Mainland people / students, shops or banks or someone just speaking Putonghua!  It is racist and deplorable.  The loss of compassion, principles and rationality, the hatred in the air and the eagerness to build on it is stunning. 

Xi Jinping made a statement yesterday.  I read it as strong action against the rioters soon, but it will not be the PLA (unless the rioters are so insane or stupid as to attack the PLA barracks or the Central Liaison Office). Even if the riots have calmed, Hong Kong will not recover from this in every aspect anytime soon, if ever. 

As for further opening up, it is in the policy papers.  The Central Government may be very careful about this but they do act on their policy papers.  Shenzhen is the city to watch.

This is a good interview by Tim Sebastian with  Joey Siu a student leader on DW...  he really shows the rioters up.  (The ironic thing:  the girl has been actually praised by the rioters for her stand!) 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9nNeO0yWyk&list=PLBL0jHFf3ZhBGw0FnD2YIL7S8N9kl1jHz&index=2

And US Senator Marco Rubio makes me sick.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Appreciate your opinion on this,  mercury,  as always.

[JovaJova]

All true.  "this is all masquerading as a cry for democracy" makes me especially sad.  It's very hard in the midst of violence and the destruction of our own city by our own people.  The destruction is not only buildings, the rails or the economy.  Something is very broken in the soul. 

This is a good interview by Tim Sebastian with  Joey Siu a student leader on DW...  he really shows the rioters up.  (The ironic thing:  the girl has been actually praised by the rioters for her stand!) 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9nNeO0yWyk&list=PLBL0jHFf3ZhBGw0FnD2YIL7S8N9kl1jHz&index=2

And US Senator Marco Rubio makes me sick.

One of the very worst things about this whole sorry situation is the way the western media have reported on it. You have American and British press all portraying these rioters as heroes fighting for democracy and you have utterly clueless American politicians constantly stating that these brave Hong Kongers are standing up for their freedom in the face of evil tyranny and oppression from China. It is an appalling misrepresentation of what is actually taking place. I can imagine the Chinese government must be infuriated by foreign support for what is effectively a racist attack on their nationality, by a small subsection of their own people. A really critical factor in these protests is racism and Hong Kongers self perceived superiority over mainland Chinese.

Hong Kong is an amazing place to live and these protests are easily ignored if you want to, but the hatred built up inside these young kids is life changing for them. A lot of the really sensible and clever young kids I work with are now essentially brainwashed into thinking the police and government are this violent evil mob. This actually could not be any further from the truth but the kids sadly are so brainwashed and set in their ways they are incapable of thinking rationally anymore. Very sad all round and there is no real solution to it either. No government should give in to violence and as useless as Carrie Lam and her government are, they should not give any more than they have already done. To be honest the best way for this to end is for the police to actually do their job properly. They are getting all sorts of abuse for police brutality when in fact they could have been any more restrained. They may as well now start actually policing like any other countries police force would to start to really snuff out these rioters.

 

[classycarra]

I’m not sure in a week when police shot an unarmed 21 year old you can be quite as hyperbolic as suggesting they couldn’t be more restrained.

Why is it you think Lam et al shouldn’t give any more? What’s wrong with the demands for an independent inquiry into the policing? And for universal suffrage?

[Kashinoda]

One of the very worst things about this whole sorry situation is the way the western media have reported on it. You have American and British press all portraying these rioters as heroes fighting for democracy and you have utterly clueless American politicians constantly stating that these brave Hong Kongers are standing up for their freedom in the face of evil tyranny and oppression from China. It is an appalling misrepresentation of what is actually taking place. I can imagine the Chinese government must be infuriated by foreign support for what is effectively a racist attack on their nationality, by a small subsection of their own people. A really critical factor in these protests is racism and Hong Kongers self perceived superiority over mainland Chinese.

Hong Kong is an amazing place to live and these protests are easily ignored if you want to, but the hatred built up inside these young kids is life changing for them. A lot of the really sensible and clever young kids I work with are now essentially brainwashed into thinking the police and government are this violent evil mob. This actually could not be any further from the truth but the kids sadly are so brainwashed and set in their ways they are incapable of thinking rationally anymore. Very sad all round and there is no real solution to it either. No government should give in to violence and as useless as Carrie Lam and her government are, they should not give any more than they have already done. To be honest the best way for this to end is for the police to actually do their job properly. They are getting all sorts of abuse for police brutality when in fact they could have been any more restrained. They may as well now start actually policing like any other countries police force would to start to really snuff out these rioters.

 

Sorry but that's a lot of waffle.

The highlight being Hong Kong is an amazing place to live. 

Also find it beyond hilarious that the Chinese may feel like they're being racially attacked. This a country that runs what are essentially concentration camps for their Uighur population.

I find it a little hard to sympathise with a country that brainwashes its civilians, commits ethnic cleansing in Xinjiang and is aiming to turn it's country into an episode of Black Mirror by 2030 with their social score big brother bollox.

What a country!

[J_Kopite]

Jova is also keen to ignore the older protestors, the "silver hairs", are they brainwashed too?

[JovaJova]

I’m not sure in a week when police shot an unarmed 21 year old you can be quite as hyperbolic as suggesting they couldn’t be more restrained.

Why is it you think Lam et al shouldn’t give any more? What’s wrong with the demands for an independent inquiry into the policing? And for universal suffrage?

This is actually a week where the protesters have been on the streets from morning until night in many different districts, destroying countless public areas / shops / roads etc etc, goaded the police with petrol bombs, blockaded a university as a base camp for their violence and to top it all off, they actually killed a 70 year old man who was employed to clean up the mess they were creating so that the rest of the country can go about their daily lives. They also set a Chinese man on fire for arguing with them, with 60 degrees burns over his body. I'm sorry but in the face of all of this destruction, it is miraculous that there are so few incidents of real police retaliation. The shooting happened about about 500 yards away from where I live. A protester was being arrested and another was trying to grab the gun off the arresting policeman before he was shot. The other example of police firing live bullets a few weeks ago was after six of the protesters had wrestled the cop to the ground and were hammering him on the floor with iron bars.

I honestly fail to see how any rational person can defend this ? In the states or UK so many of these people who instantly be shot dead. Yet the headlines are about police brutality ?

Universal suffrage is clearly an enormously complex topic. Hong Kong is a Chinese territory who just so happened to be under British rule for many years. An inconvenient truth is that Hong Kong actually had less freedom under British rule than they do now. The underlying cause for the protests in my opinion anyway is not really linked to pure democracy, it is linked to social issues such as land and housing and the fear of the unknown for what will happen in 2047, underlined of course by a genuine dislike and mistrust for mainland Chinese among many of the HK population. If the protesters want democracy then surely they have to actually practice democratic values to push their cause. Violence, destruction, beating up people opposed to their views, destroying anything Chinese in the city, forcing their views upon everyone else is not succeeding and will never succeed.

[DanJay87]

Jova is also keen to ignore the older protestors, the "silver hairs", are they brainwashed too?

He’s keen to ignore a whole lot more than just that.

[JovaJova]

He’s keen to ignore a whole lot more than just that.

Such as ?

I am keen to understand the views of people who still support the way this movement is being conducted so please do tell.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

This is actually a week where the protesters have been on the streets from morning until night in many different districts, destroying countless public areas / shops / roads etc etc, goaded the police with petrol bombs, blockaded a university as a base camp for their violence and to top it all off, they actually killed a 70 year old man who was employed to clean up the mess they were creating so that the rest of the country can go about their daily lives. They also set a Chinese man on fire for arguing with them, with 60 degrees burns over his body. I'm sorry but in the face of all of this destruction, it is miraculous that there are so few incidents of real police retaliation. The shooting happened about about 500 yards away from where I live. A protester was being arrested and another was trying to grab the gun off the arresting policeman before he was shot. The other example of police firing live bullets a few weeks ago was after six of the protesters had wrestled the cop to the ground and were hammering him on the floor with iron bars.

I honestly fail to see how any rational person can defend this ? In the states or UK so many of these people who instantly be shot dead. Yet the headlines are about police brutality ?

Universal suffrage is clearly an enormously complex topic. Hong Kong is a Chinese territory who just so happened to be under British rule for many years. An inconvenient truth is that Hong Kong actually had less freedom under British rule than they do now. The underlying cause for the protests in my opinion anyway is not really linked to pure democracy, it is linked to social issues such as land and housing and the fear of the unknown for what will happen in 2047, underlined of course by a genuine dislike and mistrust for mainland Chinese among many of the HK population. If the protesters want democracy then surely they have to actually practice democratic values to push their cause. Violence, destruction, beating up people opposed to their views, destroying anything Chinese in the city, forcing their views upon everyone else is not succeeding and will never succeed.

Unless you're talking about decades ago (why would you) that is complete bollocks.

[Kashinoda]

Unless you're talking about decades ago (why would you) that is complete bollocks.

Laughable isn't it.

I didn't know selling controversial books under British rule lead to state orchestrated abduction and prison.

[classycarra]

I also didn't get an answer from Jova about why it's important that there isn't universal suffrage and important there isn't an independent inquiry into the policing.