Author Topic: Paris  (Read 185065 times)

Offline Usman1987

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Re: Paris
« Reply #240 on: May 30, 2022, 03:18:38 pm »
Don’t think he’s said anything controversial there. There were fake tickets readily available before the game. They weren’t the primary reason for the debacle outside the ground but for sure it was a contributory factor

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Paris
« Reply #241 on: May 30, 2022, 03:19:53 pm »
Reads like its victim blaming to be honest, whether that's what he intended or not
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline redmark

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Re: Paris
« Reply #242 on: May 30, 2022, 03:21:49 pm »
Le Monde: The chaos at the Stade de France is the culmination of French fan management policies

https://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2022/05/29/le-chaos-au-stade-de-france-est-l-aboutissement-des-politiques-francaises-de-gestion-des-supporteurs_6128104_3242.html

It also has a very unfortunate resonance with the Hillsborough disaster and its 95 deaths in 1989, for which the responsibility was immediately and falsely attributed to Reds fans, while it was the result of the negligence of the organizers and the police forces.

The intimate knowledge of this drama by the Liverpudlians probably played a role in preventing crowd movements whose outcome could have been fatal. Several witnesses reported the atmosphere of fear, without exasperation taking away.

---

In a nation that was proud to host this final, after the sidelining of St. Petersburg, which claims to host major sporting events and is two years away from the Paris Olympics, this bankruptcy is all the more alarming as the designation of scapegoats still takes precedence over any acknowledgment of responsibility.

Six years ago, however, the Euro football tournament highlighted serious shortcomings. "If a few heads fell, there was no feedback, no independent investigation. Six years and a lot of complacency later, the same archaic devices lead to the same problems," said Ronan Evain, executive director of Football Supporters Europe (FSE).

The hope is that the international exposure of this masterful failure will finally contribute to a questioning. The desolate attempts by the security forces to prevent journalists from filming the most compromising scenes for them will not be enough, this time.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 03:25:17 pm by redmark »
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Re: Paris
« Reply #243 on: May 30, 2022, 03:22:04 pm »
This isn't a UEFA response, it's the French government (and there are some complex political issues involved for them - which shouldn't be our problem, but we're an easy target: we don't have a vote). There are things to hold UEFA to account for, and ultimately they're responsible for the hosting of the CL Final, but much/most of the issues on the ground seem to be the fault of local authorities and the police. Suggestions in the various threads suggest UEFA aren't thrilled at the tarnishing of their pinnacle event.
Thanks my mistake, good to know, thought UEFA had made made similar comments as the French after the match.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #244 on: May 30, 2022, 03:22:06 pm »
Don’t think he’s said anything controversial there. There were fake tickets readily available before the game. They weren’t the primary reason for the debacle outside the ground but for sure it was a contributory factor

For a start there’s a world of difference between acknowledging that fake tickets were around prior to kick off and labelling them one of the root causes of the problem.

Secondly, I’d be interested to see your evidence for establishing that they were a contributory factor.

Fake tickets are around for almost all over subscribed events; whether it’s people innocently buying them from scammers or deliberately making them to jib in - the point is they exist and they’re not particularly hard to make to a good enough standard to be hard to spot, therefore they should form part of the plan for sound event management as they’re a near certainty to be around.

I’m sure that there were ticketless fans being c*nts, the point is that the numbers of them were by the sounds of it so small that it had no credible impact on the events anymore than any other number of irrelevant factors.

Offline johnybarnes

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Re: Paris
« Reply #245 on: May 30, 2022, 03:24:19 pm »
Don’t think he’s said anything controversial there. There were fake tickets readily available before the game. They weren’t the primary reason for the debacle outside the ground but for sure it was a contributory factor

There are fake tickets before any major final - I believe he lives in America so how is he drawing any conclusions about the 'root cause' let alone his cringeworthy suggestion of a chant next time there is a crush.

Jesus christ.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #246 on: May 30, 2022, 03:25:48 pm »
Don’t think he’s said anything controversial there. There were fake tickets readily available before the game. They weren’t the primary reason for the debacle outside the ground but for sure it was a contributory factor
Problem is they couldn't even scan the tickets properly to find out whether they were fake so any stats put forward by the French are worthless. we know genuine tickets were also classed as fake.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Paris
« Reply #247 on: May 30, 2022, 03:32:00 pm »
Thanks my mistake, good to know, thought UEFA had made made similar comments as the French after the match.
UEFA did put out the "late arrival" lie even before kick off, but said that was the message given to them by organisers (similar to how the FA parroted the police in 89). At the moment, we're in the phase where police, local organisers and government blame the fans. Remains to be seen how UEFA react to that now the facts are clearly out there - and some of those affected were UEFA VIPs and ballot ticket holders, not just Liverpool (or Madrid) fans.
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Offline johnybarnes

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Re: Paris
« Reply #248 on: May 30, 2022, 03:32:13 pm »
Dr Phil Scraton is compiling a timeline about Saturday - the approach to stadium, arrival, delays, policing, police response and assaults on fans including tear gassing through to aftermath for use in any potential inquiry. Email your experience to p.scraton@qub.ac.uk

https://twitter.com/TonyEvans92a/status/1531252675555348483

Offline Circa1892

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Re: Paris
« Reply #249 on: May 30, 2022, 03:34:48 pm »
Bizarre that a supposed progressive country thinks you can get away with just outright lying in this day and age. Its not like 1989 where newspapers are the only place to read 'news'. Pretty much every fan there would have had a camera phone, all of the bullshit lies can be debunked in about two minutes

Not sure France can be called a progressive country...

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Paris
« Reply #250 on: May 30, 2022, 03:35:19 pm »
Not sure France can be called a progressive country...

Yeah me either I just couldnt think of the right word
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #251 on: May 30, 2022, 03:36:34 pm »
Le Monde: The chaos at the Stade de France is the culmination of French fan management policies

https://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2022/05/29/le-chaos-au-stade-de-france-est-l-aboutissement-des-politiques-francaises-de-gestion-des-supporteurs_6128104_3242.html

It also has a very unfortunate resonance with the Hillsborough disaster and its 95 deaths in 1989, for which the responsibility was immediately and falsely attributed to Reds fans, while it was the result of the negligence of the organizers and the police forces.

The intimate knowledge of this drama by the Liverpudlians probably played a role in preventing crowd movements whose outcome could have been fatal. Several witnesses reported the atmosphere of fear, without exasperation taking away.

---

In a nation that was proud to host this final, after the sidelining of St. Petersburg, which claims to host major sporting events and is two years away from the Paris Olympics, this bankruptcy is all the more alarming as the designation of scapegoats still takes precedence over any acknowledgment of responsibility.

Six years ago, however, the Euro football tournament highlighted serious shortcomings. "If a few heads fell, there was no feedback, no independent investigation. Six years and a lot of complacency later, the same archaic devices lead to the same problems," said Ronan Evain, executive director of Football Supporters Europe (FSE).

The hope is that the international exposure of this masterful failure will finally contribute to a questioning. The desolate attempts by the security forces to prevent journalists from filming the most compromising scenes for them will not be enough, this time.

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Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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Re: Paris
« Reply #252 on: May 30, 2022, 03:36:50 pm »
Just saw a video of Madrid fans being beaten up and robbed en-masse after the game. Hear the same happened to LFC fans.

Just a depressing thing to think about. The blame will now switch to the 'immigrants' in France I imagine.

Offline RK7

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Re: Paris
« Reply #253 on: May 30, 2022, 03:38:45 pm »
they can apologize 100 times over and over I won't be back

Same, I saw things I'd never seen before on that scale and regret putting my kids through it. It's bad enough if it was just me but feel terrible putting them through this. I will never forget the look on their faces.

Offline Circa1892

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Re: Paris
« Reply #254 on: May 30, 2022, 03:41:35 pm »
Just a depressing thing to think about. The blame will now switch to the 'immigrants' in France I imagine.

It won't.

There's a legislative election in 2 weeks which is massive. Macron (and his shite Ministers) want to preserve a majority. Blaming the immigrants plays into Le Pen's hands, blaming the police plays into Melenchons.

Blaming the English I'd imagine has probably been electoral gold there for about 1000 years... (and vice versa)

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Re: Paris
« Reply #255 on: May 30, 2022, 03:42:41 pm »
Same, I saw things I'd never seen before on that scale and regret putting my kids through it. It's bad enough if it was just me but feel terrible putting them through this. I will never forget the look on their faces.

You weren't to know though. Why shouldn't you be able to take them to something like this. It absolutely stinks.

This coming season I was going to take my 7 year old girl to a game as she's just started paying attention to footy but not now after all this.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #256 on: May 30, 2022, 03:44:13 pm »
Not sure France can be called a progressive country...

46% of the electorate voted for Le Pen recently in the election and a high percentage of the rest where very reluctant Macron voters. Serious problems there (and we know it's bad enough here).
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Re: Paris
« Reply #257 on: May 30, 2022, 03:45:06 pm »
Dr Phil Scraton is compiling a timeline about Saturday - the approach to stadium, arrival, delays, policing, police response and assaults on fans including tear gassing through to aftermath for use in any potential inquiry. Email your experience to p.scraton@qub.ac.uk

https://twitter.com/TonyEvans92a/status/1531252675555348483

The state of some posters on that timeline (I know, I shouldn't have read it).

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Re: Paris
« Reply #258 on: May 30, 2022, 03:45:41 pm »
I wrote this on Reddit copying it on here

" So last night, myself, my brother and two other friends attended the final at the Stade de France. I was also in Madrid for the 2019 final so that was not the first time experiencing this sort of event

First I have to say that from the city the experience was disorganized. First getting inside the fanzone was absolute chaos. We decided to just save ourselves the hassle and go to the cafe shops around the area because it looked dangerous to try to get there.

Around 5 we decided to go to the UEFA event in Hotel de la Ville. The official UEFA guide said the event closed at six, one hour after we arrived so naturally we were told by the security that it was closed for the day.

By then we walked for a bit and around 6.00 we decided to head to the stadium. The metro was chaotic. There were no instructions, no signs of which train to take. We tagged along with a bunch of Madrid fans who went there during Euro 2016 because every metro employee gave us a contradicting answer to where we should head.

We made it to the stadium, to be honest we were seated in Block D, the neutral zone though there were far more Liverpool fans than Madrid fans, so didn't have a problem entering the stadium. We entered around 7 and it was simple for us. But for our section, there was only one cafeteria and one restroom. Meaning it took me and my friend an hour and fifteen minutes to grab beers before the game and another 20 minutes to piss. In both instances, there were a lot of crushes on the concourse and I felt bad for parents taking their kids to the restroom because it was very dangerous to enter.

I won't talk about the game or the football but five minutes before kickoff the Liverpool end looked empty, meanwhile my area suddenly was full of ticketless fans who all looked local, spoke French and sat on the stairs not wearing the colors of either teams, these guys generally caused some trouble by trying to take seats of fans who went to grab a drink or went to the restroom, security was totally absent.

The real worry for me was leaving.  We left just after the final whistle. For some reason, the police decided to prevent us from leaving the stadium, thousands were standing in a bottleneck to go to the metro when all of a sudden the French police again decided to tear gas us and randomly hit people. Meanwhile, some locals from the area were forcing their way to the stadium to catch the trophy ceremony without being stopped whatsoever. I saw one of the locals beat a man on the back of the head with what looked like a lead pipe and the guy didn't get up. It was a horrendous experience all around."
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Re: Paris
« Reply #259 on: May 30, 2022, 03:50:05 pm »
The French authorities don't have control at sporting events anymore for football.  It's sad what happened in Paris.

If you look at Ligue 1 and all the craziness around it, Marseille have had multiple matches abandoned.  Pitch invasions and crowd problems everywhere.

For the Coupe de France final, Nice ultras were clashing with police amidst trouble from some PSG ultras also.  Saint Etienne supporters invading the pitch to attack their own players after relegation.  Lyon-Marseille abandoned.

These are some of the biggest names and games in French football (not some some provincial games), and it's just chaos.

So when our supporters get to Paris, the riot police have no interest in engaging or helping.  They just assume the worst and start treating the supporters with contempt, and it's a disgrace.  When the local gangs and such come up and cause problems, particularly after the match (see what Kitch posted and what Jim Beglin tweeted), the police don't do anything, probably just assuming the same "fights" they see in Ligue 1.  And they just don't really care about foreign supporters getting home.

The French have lost all control at football matches and have resorted to heavy-handed tactics.  But when non-French supporters arrive and behave well, they don't adjust and react the same way, even though the supporters are innocent.  Now that they've screwed up, they'll blame the fans, as authorities do.

Some posters on here have referenced Hillsborough parallels.  You see it with how the French are handling things.  They've blamed fans for a result of their own failures.  And these failures of French government and society go far beyond just today.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/aug/23/nice-marseille-chaos-fans-shame-ligue-1

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/nov/21/lyon-marseille-abandoned-after-dimitri-payet-hit-by-bottle-from-crowd

https://www.france24.com/en/sport/20220530-riot-police-clash-with-pitch-invading-fans-as-saint-%C3%A9tienne-relegated-from-ligue-1
It sounds like France should not be given any more European finals until it sorts itself out.

Maybe we (the club) could boycott any a future matches against french opposition by not taking tickets for the away game.

In this day and age it should be a given that people are safe when attending football stadia. When you aren't even safe from those employed there to keep the peace and assist people then that tells you all you need to know.

I definitely understand police being wary of football crowds, given previous experience, but they should always police the actual occasion on the day, and take as they find. They should not be policing Liverpool and Real Madrid fans in the same way as they might have to police certain domestic games and fanbases.

Going by accounts in here, it appears that France is decades behind when it comes to organisation, flexible policing and also crowd behaviour. They really shouldn't be allowed to treat civilised football fans visiting their country and boosting their local economy in such a neanderthal way.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #260 on: May 30, 2022, 03:52:42 pm »
I don't think there's any doubt that fake tickets were one of the root causes of the problem.

Many, if not most, holders may not have been aware, or had invalidated tickets, but without a system to shunt them without stopping the flow it's just feeding the chaos.

Our lot needs to start chanting "Back Up!" from the front next time a crush comes.  This is another tragic accident waiting to happen and being the best supported Club in the World, you know what's gonna happen next time.

Sorry mate but this is complete garbage. Forged tickets floating around is an issue at every event. That's why tickets have bar codes, holograms and other features. It's not a root cause of anything, it's a basic issue that any competent security operation needs to deal with.

As for shouting "back up" when there's ten thousand people behind you... Jesus wept.



 
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Re: Paris
« Reply #261 on: May 30, 2022, 03:56:00 pm »
Have the club made any comment especially after one of the French ministers suggesting that LFC “failed to control its fans?”  I am really wondering how they will respond to that accusation.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #262 on: May 30, 2022, 03:56:47 pm »

I definitely understand police being wary of football crowds, given previous experience, but they should always police the actual occasion on the day, and take as they find. They should not be policing Liverpool and Real Madrid fans in the same way as they might have to police certain domestic games and fanbases.

Going by accounts in here, it appears that France is decades behind when it comes to organisation, flexible policing and also crowd behaviour. They really shouldn't be allowed to treat civilised football fans visiting their country and boosting their local economy in such a neanderthal way.

You have a situation were the French have seen drunken England fans storm Wembley by pushing past a very thin blue line of PC Dixons, Old Trafford stormed by their own fans and the end of season pitch invasions involving assaults on players and taunting of opposition managers. Allied to the problems the French football authorities have had with their own fans and the unsavoury and heavy handed reputation of the French riot police - a view shared by many of the French - you can see the potential for a tinderbox.

And interesting to see that there were problems outside the ground for their Cup Final.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #263 on: May 30, 2022, 03:59:27 pm »
Don’t think he’s said anything controversial there. There were fake tickets readily available before the game. They weren’t the primary reason for the debacle outside the ground but for sure it was a contributory factor

He said it was a root cause. It wasn't. Forged tickets to big games are a fact of life, especially ones where UEFA decide to have 20,000 'neutral' tickets that are going to be touted and create a huge market for forgeries.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #264 on: May 30, 2022, 04:00:23 pm »
You weren't to know though. Why shouldn't you be able to take them to something like this. It absolutely stinks.

This coming season I was going to take my 7 year old girl to a game as she's just started paying attention to footy but not now after all this.

I would say Anfield, and all PL grounds are safe (not that you’d probably take her to an away game first up!).

Offline getsonmywick

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Re: Paris
« Reply #265 on: May 30, 2022, 04:01:34 pm »
Heres my experience of Saturday.  All times local time, match was scheduled for 9pm. 

2pm.  Went to fanpark after getting off metro at Nation, funnelled into entrance by Police so they could take booze off you.  No worries, someone gave me a free can to drink.  Got in, made our way near the front, waited through to The Lightning Seeds boring the arse off us, then stayed for most of Jamie Webster.  Fantastic ,  place was bouncing, time of our lives.   

5pm.  As the fanpark crowd was long and thin and we were furthest away from the exit we made our way out, before most others did same.  This was a really good move, didn’t realise at the time though.

6pm. Got off metro at Stad De France – Saint-Denis and walked 15 mins toward the stadium where we were funnelled again at that underpass.  Police vans parked to prevent access only in single file.   This felt disorganised but not too dangerous, got through it.  Like I said it was early, the match was hours away.   But I knew this filtering was gonna cause chaos later.   There was a big crowd yet to reach this stage.  Tens of thousands to come through this shoddy filter.  Some fans tried to ask the police what it was all about but they just said they don’t speak English.

6:30pm.  Past this, 200 yards there was the first ticket check.  Mostly stewards, couple of police.  I’d say at most 5 lanes getting through after search & ticket check.     The crowd behind built up and we were starting to get squeezed a bit.  Loads of people telling people behind to stop pushing.  We know better than most what this can lead to so I was concerned but never felt in danger.   Some people were getting upset though, a woman in front of me started crying and we helped get her to the front of the queue by asking people to make way.      At this stage nobody was stressing about not getting in the game, it was still quite early.

6:45pm.   I’m still in this crowd.   A few people are trying move the other way having been denied entry.  This was difficult as the crowd was tightly packed.  Maybe 20 young locals and 5 young scallys I saw being denied.  One scouse lad as he passing answered someones obvious question why he was going the other way “Do I look like I’ve got a fucking ticket?”.   We laughed a bit, we could still breathe at least.

7:05pm.  We got through this.  I had my ticket verified and was quickly searched.   We made our way to Gate Y.   There was a large crowd snaking round but Gate Y was open and we were moving forward slowly.   Jason McAteer was on near us on a platform in between media duties.  So old fella shouted at him and blamed him.  McAteer looked our way with a face that said “What the fuck you shouting at me for?”   We laughed again.

7:30pm.   As we got near the gate there was a load of shouting and a few scuffles the other side.  They were trying to close the gate and eventually did.    We are not in yet.   A few locals wandering around.  One tried to steal something from someone behind me.  Cue more shouting and the young lad came back to throw a bottle after being chased away.   There were no security or police to be seen outside the gate, so this was allowed to go on.

7:45pm.  Gate Y still closed.  This is first time I think I might miss the game, I’d not been to Athens but heard stories of genuine fans being locked out.   Now the crowd was starting to build up.   Some just climbed over the barrier to the front of the queue, fearing they were gonna miss the game.  This wasn’t helping, we were getting squeezed again and lads were shouting at each other to get back.   There were loads of stewards the other side of the gates not really doing much.   A single gate opened to let through this grandad and his grandson, Jack.  The little lad was scared and crying.  Loads of local lads hanging round near the gates.   No stewards or police moving them on.   

8pm.   One of the stewards told us the gate would be opened in 5 minutes.  We were to not push and be calm.   This information was what we needed.  The lack of communication was part of the problem up to this stage.   The gate did open, we got through and my ticket was scanned and OK.  I was relieved as I saw fans turned away shocked who looked like genuine people to me.   I’m convinced the ticket scanners were on random mode.  Found our seats, loads of empty seats around us, no way this game was starting in less than an hour.

9pm.   Went out as I’d heard stories of tear gas.   Could see Gate Y locked again and a massive queue behind the bars of the gate.  Far more people there now, those people think they aren’t getting in.   

Half Time.  10:40pm.   Some people taking their seats at half time rubbing their eyes and swearing.   We know now we got lucky.

Full Time.   Dozens of riot police in the LFC end.  None in the Madrid end.  Still don’t know what the point of that was.  A show of force ?    Shows they were clueless.

My view after was the pre-game situation caused by bad crowd management/planning.   I reckon the police knew that the locals, the bad ones, the ones robbing, fighting, rushing the gates were organised and would be out in force.  Easy pickings, a snatched bag here, a snatched ticket there.  This was the real reason for this flimsy ticket checkpoint.  If you are going to set up an impromptu ticket checkpoint, make sure it can handle 30000 reds looking forward to the game of their lives.

I have seen other people’s stories since.   Fans could have died getting to the game on Saturday due to incompetence.   It was a close thing and we are lucky it didn’t end up like that.

The French authorities will be trying to cover their own arses now.  We won’t let them though, we’ve seen this story before.  This time theres plenty of photos and videos to disprove the lies that will come.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #266 on: May 30, 2022, 04:02:15 pm »
Have the club made any comment especially after one of the French ministers suggesting that LFC “failed to control its fans?”  I am really wondering how they will respond to that accusation.

Can the club sue them?
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Re: Paris
« Reply #267 on: May 30, 2022, 04:02:37 pm »
Have the club made any comment especially after one of the French ministers suggesting that LFC “failed to control its fans?”  I am really wondering how they will respond to that accusation.

As they're responding to the government of France I imagine they'll want to make their statement once they have a clear idea of whats gone on with evidence to back it up. As in not just knee jerk a press conference and wildly spout shite.

Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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Re: Paris
« Reply #268 on: May 30, 2022, 04:02:43 pm »
It won't.

There's a legislative election in 2 weeks which is massive. Macron (and his shite Ministers) want to preserve a majority. Blaming the immigrants plays into Le Pen's hands, blaming the police plays into Melenchons.

Blaming the English I'd imagine has probably been electoral gold there for about 1000 years... (and vice versa)


Well, on the other hand the conservative media in the UK will probably support the fans, anything to make the French look bad. Expecting more and more media to make that stance in the coming days.

Nevermind, just saw Boris criticize the French. It's happening already.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 04:05:17 pm by Bend It Like Aurelio »

Offline johnybarnes

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Re: Paris
« Reply #269 on: May 30, 2022, 04:03:48 pm »
The state of some posters on that timeline (I know, I shouldn't have read it).

Twitter 'banter' is really pathetic - fans of other clubs aren't interested in knowing what actually happened.

Although without social media we wouldn't have all these journalists who were there shooting down the French/UEFA narrative.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #270 on: May 30, 2022, 04:04:19 pm »
Sorry mate but this is complete garbage. Forged tickets floating around is an issue at every event. That's why tickets have bar codes, holograms and other features. It's not a root cause of anything, it's a basic issue that any competent security operation needs to deal with.

As for shouting "back up" when there's ten thousand people behind you... Jesus wept.
I think the fake tickets thing is just a smokescreen.

As you said, pretty much every oversubscribed event anywhere in the world will have forged tickets doing the rounds. Sporting events, music festivals, concerts etc. You name it, if there is more demand for an event than there are tickets, some crooks will be looking to sell forgeries for it.

Competent organisation and security deals with it easily.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #271 on: May 30, 2022, 04:04:39 pm »
I just got back, what is being reported is maybe 20% of what went on....

Bloody hell mate, reading that back giving me chills.

Glad you're safe, this account of events needs sharing everywhere.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #272 on: May 30, 2022, 04:06:26 pm »
I would say Anfield, and all PL grounds are safe (not that you’d probably take her to an away game first up!).

Just feel absolutely put off the whole thing. I was at the cup final against Chelsea which was fine from my experience but just knowing how our fans are treated, the songs we get aimed at us etc.

Feels like a section of society I want to protect her against. After this weekend (I wasn't even there, but reading the accounts on here, Twitter, seeing the videos and hearing from family who were there), I just feel worn out by it all. The shouts of murderers, victims, bin dippers etc. it can just all get to fuck.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #273 on: May 30, 2022, 04:07:58 pm »
The only plausible explanation for it is that UEFA have had enough of British clubs dominating Europe and fancy a lengthy ban to even up the playing fields.

I’m not saying that’s what happened, I’d like to think it was down to incompetence (which is still fucking awful considering what could have happened) but at least better than it being deliberate, but if it was intentional, then I can’t see past that being the intent.

It's obvious that they were trying to get a reaction & the c*nts only ramped it up after their excuses/LIES were quickly called out.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #274 on: May 30, 2022, 04:09:12 pm »
Just feel absolutely put off the whole thing. I was at the cup final against Chelsea which was fine from my experience but just knowing how our fans are treated, the songs we get aimed at us etc.

Feels like a section of society I want to protect her against. After this weekend (I wasn't even there, but reading the accounts on here, Twitter, seeing the videos and hearing from family who were there), I just feel worn out by it all. The shouts of murderers, victims, bin dippers etc. it can just all get to fuck.

Why not take her to a pre season friendly or a Legends game? Decent atmosphere and a bit of a laugh - not for the purist I know.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #275 on: May 30, 2022, 04:11:02 pm »
Football Supporters Europe - collecting information from fans.

https://twitter.com/FansEurope/status/1530842964448141313
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #276 on: May 30, 2022, 04:12:36 pm »
I just got back, what is being reported is maybe 20% of what went on.

The crushing side of things... it is a miracle that nobody died, an absolute miracle. I got caught up in the crush at Gate Y, luckily a security guard for the media area pretty much dragged me through a gap in the fence. From there I was on the safety of the LFC TV studio/gantry - let me just say EVERYONE in that are was superb. Hillsborough survivors were in there with me (they were in fits of tears), 6 year old kids, old people, and they calmed everyone down and looked after everyone including sprays to remove tear gas, water etc.

The policing aspect of Saturday - credit where credit's due - is being reported fairly accurately by our media, for once. They have avoided a massive disaster on a huge scale, purely by luck. I saw countless people, myself included, climbing over a wall maybe 6ft tall to get out of the crunch, if that wall was 3/4 feet higher there is no way that masses of people don't die. I have a video stood on the LFC TV studio, behind the metal fence, and a cop walks up and pepper sprays a journalist in the face who was doing nothing other than watching the events going on. He was on his own (not sure if its relevant, but he was black), and they calmly walked up to him (he was wearing his press credentials) and sprayed him full in the face. When we were asking them why the gates were closed? Why are they tear gassing kids? They all just laughed.

One question that remains unanswered is if they were so worried about the amount of people in there with fake tickets/climbed the fence, then why let us all in? If there was 'thousands' inside the stadium that shouldn't have been, then why let the rest of us in? It is all a load of bullshit.

However, what is being massively underreported is the 'locals'. There was 100's of 'Locals', let's be honest though. African gangs. They were more organised than the police. What I saw from my position makes it very hard to avoid the thought that this was somehow pre-planned with the police. I saw people slashed with knives 6 feet in front of cops, they laughed. I saw people mugged 6 feet in front of cops, they laughed. I saw one guy knocked unconscious (the sound of his head hitting the concrete will stay with me forever), they laughed. Every now and then they would 'charge' at the 'Locals', charge is barely a word I would use, slowly walk towards them is more accurate. They would then disperse, the cops would then leave the area, and the 'locals' would return. I saw around 5 people knocked unconscious, 2 slashed and countless robbed, literally nothing was done. Nothing.

All of this was happening whilst we could hear the opening ceremony taking place inside.

Around 10pm the police then formed a cordon outside from Gate Y down to the corner of the stadium and people were getting in easier. Then the 'locals' returned. LFC TV said they would escort me and a few others to the Gate to get get in. At that point there was no police outside the stadium and 100s of 'Locals'. The media area was only protected by a thin metal fence so at that point it felt safer to be in the stadium.

We were frogmarched by security to the gate and pretty much dragged in by the stewards, I am covered in grazes from being dragged through a group of 'Locals' at the gate. A 6 year old girl and her dad was with me and I have never in my life seen fear in someones eyes like that kid. It was genuinely terrifying.

Once inside I didn't care about the game, I didn't sing, I didn't shout, I wanted to be out of there, a lot felt like that and the atmosphere was flat at best, it 100% contributed. Approaching full time we got a huge group of riot please stand in front of us. Real Madrid end, not one. Literally, not one.

After the game, it was just as bad. ALL sent down one dark underpass where police vans were parked forcing everyone down a maybe 10ft wide space towards the metro. Once past that space, all hell broke loose. 'Locals' were ready. Without exaggerating I maybe saw 10 people slashed and robbed, 20 people smashed in the face, saw one elderly woman screaming because her husband who looked about 80 was pinned down and was having his watch ripped off. If anyone tried to intervene you were met with a blade(s). All of this while the police were watching.

In one incident, I saw 4 'Locals' attack a Red with a knife, took his bag, took his watch and bottled him 3 feet away from police, when a fellow fan punched one of the 'locals' doing it, he got arrested.

What felt like maybe a 15 minute walk of dodging attacks, we got to the Metro station where the police were laughing and saying 'Bye, Bye... Nice to meet you'. I am 38 and have never witnessed distain for human life as much as Saturday. They literally didn't care about any of us.

Earlier in the day, we arrived at the fan park maybe 1pm and stayed until it finished (5pm?), I have never seen that amount of people in one place before, lots of people were drunk, some way to drunk yet there was literally zero issues. No scuffles, no fights, no nothing. I wasn't there at night so I cannot comment on why they were tear gassed, but if it was anything like the stadium, then it was all pre planned and it felt like the police 'had' to do it. As if they were under instruction 'no matter what, use tear gas'.

Personally, I am still dealing with what happened and what I saw. I will never in my life return to France, and would seriously doubt any game outside of England again.

With regards to our 'fans', I have absolutely nothing but good words. I tear up thinking how proud I am of us and how we handled that situation. You can count on one hand the amount of incidents we caused - and that is more than understandable after being treated that way. We are one huge family, there is nothing like us, and there never will be. When we come together we are fucking amazing and an immovable force of nature. They all want what we have. 

A lot of rambling, I know, I am sorry, but that without doubt was a huge scale disaster avoided by pure luck, and how nobody was killed by the 'locals', I have no idea. Now, clearly I have an amount of respect for Hillsborough victims, the families, the survivors and anyone associated with that day on levels that I do not have words to express, but after being in that mini crush, fora. small amount of time, I have no idea how the survivors have battled the establishment for all that time to uncover the truth. It is truly awe inspiring and they are the very, very, very best of humanity.

Everyone should read this.
 
If people were told who actually controlled institutions such as the police in many cities of the Western world, they would simply refuse to believe.

But with enough eye-witnesses to this, and to what undoubtedly will occur at future events, perhaps the scales will begin to fall from people's eyes.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #277 on: May 30, 2022, 04:13:08 pm »
Have the club made any comment especially after one of the French ministers suggesting that LFC “failed to control its fans?”  I am really wondering how they will respond to that accusation.

Not only that. They pointed the finger of blame at Jurgen Klopp too, for encouraging ticketless fans to go to Paris.

That is an astonishing accusation to make. A sign of panic if you like.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #278 on: May 30, 2022, 04:15:39 pm »
Paris has the 2024 Olympics. God help everyone with the policing and security then.  :-X

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Re: Paris
« Reply #279 on: May 30, 2022, 04:17:38 pm »
Paris has the 2024 Olympics. God help everyone with the policing and security then.  :-X

I doubt if there will be any large build up of crowds but a few rich Americans, Japanese, Arabs etc. getting mugged and steamed won't be good publicity.