Topic: Some quality/important posts you may have missed

[Hinesy]

Stickied this, for as the wise say "As the cream rises, so it pushes the shite further down"

[Arcadian]

Stickied this, for as the wise say "As the cream rises, so it pushes the shite further down"

Call me an elitist, but I rather enjoyed that it was buried away.

[Hinesy]

Elitist.




thing is mate, I'd agree with you but then we take the time to pan for gold, whereas many of our posters are the MacDonald generation... want it shiny, instant and now. So I'd rather point out there is better stuff around than Lucas: he's a wank threads.

[deadlybuzz]

In case people have missed this in the Lucas Thread - a long insightful post on Brazilian football - compared with English football and where Lucas fits into it. A phenomenal 1st post.

First of all, what was supposed to be a small explanation, ended up being one of the biggest posts I've written in my entire life. So I will divide it into sections so that you (meaning anyone reading this) can skip some stuff if you can't take it anymore or if you wanna come back to it after taking a nap, eating, taking a shower, Christmas or something like that. The sections titles will be in BOLD (if i can make it work).

Oh yeah, in case you don't want to read this, I suggest you at least take a look at the video I mentioned as one to watch in "Chapter" 10. You won't regret it, I bet on it.

Anyway, let's go:





1 - WHAT'S THIS ALL ABOUT?


That's the problem you (now it's really you Pistolero) see, you seem to understand Lucas' qualities very well, but you don't understand his role, he is not the be all and end all of CMs simply because he is not a CM, even if he has the technical ability to be one.

Let me explain something about Brazilian tactics, it may be long and a bit boring, but I think it will help understand who was the player who arrived at Anfield 4 or 5 years ago.





2 - AN OVERVIEW ON THE BRAZILIAN 4-4-2 (AND A BIT MORE)*
*By the way, this is in no way a full explanation on Brazilian tactics, this is only a part of it, a part that really only started in the 80s, and even then, it's not complete on that, I just talked about the stuff I though was relevant to the topic... which shows I have no idea what "relevant" means.


In here, the most used formation for a long while is the 4-4-2, but our 4-4-2 is completely different from yours (even in the other formations like 4-3-3 for example, the roles are quite different from the ones you have there), it works likes this:


----------------------1-------------------------
--------------3---------------4----------------
------------------------------------------------
---2----------------------------------------6---
----------------------------5-------------------
------------------7-----------------------------
------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------8--------------
-----------------------10-----------------------
------------11---------------------------------
------------------------9-----------------------




Now, the names we give to these positions are (in between braquets are the literal translations):

1- Goleiro (Goalkeeper)

2- Lateral-Direito (Right Side)

3- Zagueiro Central (Central Furthest Back)

4- Quarto Zagueiro (Fourth Furthest Back)

6- Lateral Esquerdo (Left Side)

5 - Primeiro Volante (First Steering Wheel)

7 - Segundo Volante (Second Steering Wheel)

8 - Meia-armador (Attacking Midfielder-Playmaker)

10 - Meia-atacante [or "Ponta-de-Lanca"] (Attacking Midfielder-Attacker) [or Spear-Head]

11 - Segundo Atacante [or simply "atacante"] (Second Attacker) [or simply "attacker"]

9 - Centro-Avante (Center Forward - yeah, that one is the same)





3 - SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN IN ENGLAND?


Now, as you can see, some of those names in English don't really say much of what they do, so, if we try to find their respective positions in English tactics here is what we would have:

1 - GK. That's exactly as it is up there, except for the rare technically gifted enough goalkeeper to play the sweeper role.

2 - RB, RWB, RMF. Yep, that's right, that's why the word we use, "lateral" means simply "side", he is both the wide player in defense and in Midfield. in the 4-4-2 he even does the job of the Winger and of the RWF too (just so you have an idea, the only criticism Maicon has here as a Fullback, is that he is too defensive, I'm not kidding). That's just in 4-4-2 though, in our 4-4-3 or 4-2-3-1 we also have the "Pontas" which were basically WFs. In 3-5-2 our "alas" are more similar to Wingers.

3 - CB. Our number 3 is Carragher. He is big, he is scary, he hoofs and he screams. He is Lucio.

4 - CB. Our number 4 is also a CB, but he usually the more technical one who goes for the second challenge or to collect the loose balls, David Luiz is an example of that. Most of our CBs though can do both jobs as they are similar, Thiago Silva for example excels at both.

6 - LB, LWB, LMF. Exact same thing as the Number 2, just on the left side.

5 - DM/Sweeper/CB. Now is when things starting getting confusing, the number 5 role is very similar to your DM or holding midfielder, but not exaaactly the same, I will explain more of this later. This is the position Lucas plays in the Brazil National Team now.

7 - DM/CDM/CM. Now this is the most difficult one, he is more offensive than your DM, but he is more defensive than even your most defensive CM, that's the role Lucas played in Gremio, which as you can see has nothing to do with an AM as people claimed, Anderson was the AM in that team (until he left). Again, I will explain more on this later.

8 - CM/AM. It's the playmaker, whose job you know very well, but this playmaker doesn't play behind the midfield as in there, he plays near the opponent's goal area. Zidane was almost like this (he had a bit of a number 10 too), as was/is Riquelme (this one was a 8/10 halfbreed to be fair) or maybe Nedved (haven't watched him enough to be sure). But the more classical examples would be Socrates, Gerson or Didi. Veron is the only pure Number 8 in the modern game I can think of right now. Don't worry about this too much though, this position is a little blurry even for us 

10 - AM. This player is Pele, Zico, Maradona, Kaka (when Milan Played two strikers), Seedorf (when Kaka played as forward), Gerrard (under Benitez), Lampard, Ronaldinho (in the 2002 WC winning team), Deco (in the Barcelona team Ronaldinho played in), Messi (when he has the ball, when he doesn't he is a number 9, we call that here a "false number 9", it's an European invention from (I think) the Dutch, or maybe the Hungarians, i'm not too sure, so you may know it), Sjneider (has a bit of a number 8 too) etc. As you can see, it's hard to find a pure example since they play under different tactics in Europe, but mostly this man's job is to receive the ball from the numbers 5 and 7 and to create a scoring opportunity with swift runs and dribbling from the middle, and then either shoot it himself or create a 5-10 yards pass to a free teammate (usually number 9) as the defenders come at him. Exactly what Gerrard was doing with Benitez. Of course, since this player is usually the most technally all-round gifted in the team, he can do pretty much whatever he wants and is often given free-reign of the team in the field.

11 - SS. This is the support striker. This one should be easy as you guys have more names and divisions for it than we do. A Number 11 for us includes fairly diverse players as Cristiano Ronaldo (can be number 9 or a "Ponta"), Luis Suarez (can be number 9, but best as 11), Aguero (can be both 9 and 11, I like him more as a 9), Pato (I'd like him as a 9, but he needs better finishing and area presence), Rooney (who could also play number 10, I believe), Di Maria (could also be a "ponta"), Kuyt (seems like he can play wherever people put him), Henry (can be Number 9), Villa (can be number 9, but not as efficient), Pedro (could be a "ponta"), Forlan (can be an AM and used to be a number 9, he has brilliant understanding of the game, as does Suarez btw, that's why he likes Lucas so much) and plenty more. If you want to know what a number 11 should do, just watch Suarez for 10 minutes, there's your answer. By the way, that's why Suarez plays from the sides so much even when he is theorically being played behind Carrol, his instinct as a number 11 is to look for the weaker side of the defense and to try to break in from there.

9 - CF. Pretty much the same. The way they play may change a little here since they are more involved in close range passing with the numbers 10 and 11, but as in there, they stay in or close to the box, they must score a lot, hold the ball for the players coming from behind, take in headers etc. Romario was the perfect 9, Ronaldo had less number 9 qualities than him (still way more than pretty much anyone) but also had plenty of number 11 skills, not to mention that beautiful shooting technique that allowed him to score buckets of goals without ever having to shoot a ball hard in his life. Aguero has some of Romario's qualities, but he is still far from that level obviously. But talking about players who are not from another planet, we have Torres, Drogba, Benzema, Adriano, Diego Milito, Carrol, Adebayor, Van Nistelrooy, Luis Fabiano etc.



Now, from 8 to 11 it's not so different so it should be easy to get it, as are numbers 1, 3 and 4. But the whole point of me talking about all of this was to discuss numbers 2, 6, 5 and 7.





4 - THE TACTICAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO 4-4-2 FORMATIONS


As I said, we have two "Volantes", which are somewhat like DMs, and two "Laterais" who do a hell of a lot of stuff.

The "Laterais" have the winger's job of creating width in attack, but they also have the job of the English CMs of building-up play. Yeah, I know it seems weird, but just watch one Brazil match and you will see it. Weirdly enough, this is also the job of the DMs. These four are the guys who bring the ball from the defense to the attacking players (numbers 8, 9, 10 and 11). They are not responsible though, for the creation of scoring opportunities as CMs also are in England, their job is only to take the ball there, and then, if opportunity arises, to join the attack as a surprise man (with crosses for laterais or through passes and forward runs from the volantes).

That's also the reason we have two "AMs", since there are no CMs trying to score and dribble their way into the area, those 2 players, the numbers 8 and 10, are the ones who create chances for numbers 11 and 9.

On the other side, for these two players, numbers 8 and 10, to be effective, they must ALWAYS be part of the attacking play, so they don't defend. that's why you get so many Brazilian midfielders groaning about how managers want them to tackle, in Brazil tackling is not the job of the creative midfielders, we'd never have a Gerrard or Xabi Alonso MARKING someone (although numbers 11, 10 and specially 8 do come back to fill up space and help a bit, but they are not expected to tackle or to steal balls, they mostly try to not allow the laterais and volantes to get the ball to the attackers and meias).

So, we have 2 players (numbers 3 and 4) who mostly only defend and 4 (numbers 8, 9, 10 and 11) who mostly only attack. While in England you have 4 who mostly only defend (the two CBs and two SBs) and 2 who only attack (AM/SS depending on what you wanna call it and the CF).





5 - WHY THE **** DID I WRITE ALL THAT? or THE TACTICAL THING THEY HAVE IN COMMON somewhat


Now, every team must have it's balance, and in both countries, the 4 players remaining (Numbers 2, 6, 5 and 7 in Brazil and the pairs of CMs and Wingers in England) are the guys with the responsability of providing this balance, all of these guys do both things, ATTACK and DEFEND. But since in Brazil, there are more offensive "fixed" players than defensive ones, these 4 will focus more in defense than in offense, while in England, since there are more "fixed" defensive players than there are offensive ones, they will focus more on offense. It's about 70% to 30% in both cases. The main point here, is that laterais and volantes as a whole, are more defensive than CMs and Wingers.





6 - HOW THAT BALANCE WORKS IN BRAZIL (INCLUDES LUCAS AND THE NATIONAL TEAM)



In Brazil, to achieve the 70% defence to 30% offense balance, there are a couple of ways to go, you can use two fairly offensive volantes, that would be ALMOST( I said ALMOST) CMs to pass the ball in the middle, while keeping the laterais in the defense. With the volantes playing in a more advanced position, the numbers 8 and 10 would have to move a bit to the wings to give them the space in which to work, thus providing the width lost with the laterais staying back (when this is done, it becomes very similar to the English 4-4-2, which shows that they are indeed closer to each other then one would guess at first, considering that only 4 players have the same role in both - the GK, the 2 CBs and the CF). Or you could do exactly the opposite, keep the Volantes at defence at all times and have the laterais blast towards the opponent's flanks all game long, the AMs would then play very centrally while the Volantes would become almost CBs (that's why I put "CB" as the third option next to number 5). Or you could of course use any other mix of these factors.

The second option (marauding laterais and CB volantes) has been the most used BY FAR in Brazil though for a long time for two main reasons:

Number 1 is the success of 1994's National Team who played just like that.
Number 2 is that this was the time when we started losing our stars to the European Clubs.

Every one wants to copy a champion, and that explains number 1. Number 2 is easy too, with less quality left for our clubs to use, they couldn't have a player like Dunga or Mauro Silva to use as a "DM almost CB", those were extremely good defensive players with decent technique (for Brazilian standards, btw there were considerable differences between the two, but let's not get too much into that), they could only have either those two player's decent technique, OR they had their defensive ability and NO technique. They chose the second option and more and more our laterais became almost pure attackers and our DMs almost pure defenders, since they couldn't pass the ball, taking away the options we used to have for balance. And that's why Gilberto Silva played 3 World Cups (he was a CB until he was 20 years old in case you don't know).

Only since 2005, when Sao Paulo beat Liverpool in Japan with 2 volantes with some technical ability (Josue and Mineiro, who scored the winning goal in that match by the way, something he really rarely did) did people start to rethink that, and then some technical volantes started to reappear, the very first of them, being your very own Lucas in Gremio, who was soon followed by Hernanes, Ramirez, Sandro, Cicero and others, which are now the ones that Mano Menezes wants to use in his team.

What the Brazil side is now TRYING to do, is to get back to the old times of having options for balance, like we did in 1982 when our 2 volantes were simply Falcao and Cerezo and our 2 laterais Junior and Leandro (damn I'm getting goosebumps just thinking of it lol, these 4 defensive players had the technique to make Kaka look like Terry). Anyway, what I'm trying to say, is that, although Mano is using 3 strikers (but neither Robinho or Neymar are wingers, something that Man City coach couldn't understand, and that's coming from someone who hates Robinho), the idea of balance between the two DMs and SBs is still there, we still have Maicon/Daniel Alvez and Andre Santos (ugh) going up, but the DMs, Lucas and Ramirez, even if still more defensive than the laterais, are also a part of the attacking play, Lucas mainly doing what he does at Liverpool, although from a deeper position, while Ramirez supports him with that providing option and doing forward runs into space when they open up in the opponents defense. They are not Falcao and Cerezo obviously***, but they have been great until now, unfortunately, our attacking quartet hasn't quite found it's best way to play together yet, because, as you can see in the Paraguay match, the ball arrives in their feet from Lucas and Ramirez time and time again.

*** Btw, just thought of something, I read a lot of people in the British media at the time saying that they were told Lucas was similar to Falcao.... so how the hell did people come to the conclusion that Lucas was an AM??? He was a Primeiro Volante, in fact, he played EXACTLY how Lucas is playing now, with more quality obviously, but still at the exact same role, in the exact same position in the field, doing the exact same thing (get the ball, start the new attack, receive the ball back if the forwards can't find a way to goal, move the ball around, repeat.) Want to know how Falcao was? Watch the Lucas match vs Fulham and you will know. The only difference is that Falcao played like that week in week out.


And that's a DM's role, he makes sure the balls gets to the feet of the AMs and Strikers as often as is possible, and then move into space so that if those players can't find any space into which to create an opportunity, they can give the ball back to the DMs so they can do it again.





7 - HOW THAT BALANCE WORKS IN ENGLAND (LUCAS HERE AND LIVERPOOL AS A WHOLE)


Obviously in an English tactics it's a bit different, but not too much, let's see that:

In England, they can also use their 4 players in different ways to achieve this 70% offense to 30% defense balance, they can have one winger be more offensive while another stays back more to protect the back of both fairly offensive CMs, or they can find whatever other solution (that's the coach's job) they prefer for this.

What Kenny has done in the last match, was to have one winger play almost as an striker (Downing), the other winger in a more reserved manner but still fairly offensive, the same with Adam. So, having the other three players in a more offensive role, he kept Lucas back to give that balance, even when he was namely a CM, in this formation he acted as a DM (and any formation that wants to get the best out of Lucas will do that), playing almost like he does in Brazil (in Brazil he is a little more defensive though). This is similar to how in Brazil we would make the number 5 into pretty much a CB so that the laterais could go on an all out offensive.

I don't think this is the ideal (I at least believe that, only my opinion) though, I'd have Lucas playing in this exact way he has in the last game, but as officially a DM, with two classic style CMs (you guys understand that role better than me) who could be two of Gerrard, Aquilani, Adam, Henderson or Raul ahead of him in a triangle formation. up front I'd leave Downing as a pure offensive Winger (maybe make he even MORE purely offensive) and add another one to the other side (who could be Kuit or Suarez, but only if they are REALLY purely offensive) with Suarez or Carrol as Target Man. They are completely different players I know, but both can work there, Suarez played as the only striker for Uruguay in Copa America and you know what happened (Forlan was more of a Number 10 than anything else, as you can see from he only scoring in the final even though he played an awesome tournament). It would be down to "What is better? Kuyt as an Attack Winger or Carrol as a Center Forward?" unless Kenny prefers one style or the other, both could work so it's his choice really.

This formation would put a lot of defensive strain on Lucas since Gerrard and Aquilani are not the most defensive guys around, BUT I think he can pull it off. Actually it would be a great test for him, only a World Class DM could do an effective DM job (tackling/intercepting and moving the ball around) in a formation like this, and if, while playing this formation I mentioned, he still manages to do his job, I'm 100% sure Liverpool can win the EPL. Just imagine if he can keep a considerable flow of balls arriving at the feet of the likes of Gerrard, Aquilani, Downing, Suarez and Carrol all at the same time, all in the opposition's half. I know only of one guy who does that in a similar formation and that guy is Busquets, who helps make sure that Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, Pedro/Sanchez and Messi keep getting the ball all the time (although those 5 steal lots of balls in the attack as well, which is why they are the best by far, Liverpool won't become that this season, probably not even in the next one, but if Lucas can pull it off, in some seasons, depending on how much is spent on transfers and how well the money is spent, it could become an outstanding force capable of making the mancs look like fools just like they did against Barca).

Lucas is confident now, looking better than ever, maybe this could be the time to take the next step, I'm sure Kenny would love this to happen, I hope he's thought of it.




8 - I FINALLY GET TO THE POINT


Well, anyway, I got terribly side-tracked, the reason i wrote all of this was to say:

Lucas is a DM, a player who needs to have an incridible rate of stealing the ball, who must understand the big picture of a match very well to know when to fool, which pass to pick (thinking ahead some 2 or 3 moves so that he can analize which way is the better one to attack through). He is not perfect at those things, but he IS very good at them as you have mentioned yourself, you just thought that wasn't enough to make him a really outstanding DM, but that's really all his need.

Because his job isn't to score goals, dribble defenders or even place pinpoint passes inside the opposition's defense, his job, the end product of the DM game, is to allow the ones who are most capable of doing these things (ie. Gerrard, Suarez, and the other attacking players) to have as many chances of trying them as possible.
And that's important because even with Gerrard being as good as Gerrard is at long shots for example, if he only has the opportunity to try it 2 times a game, he will rarely score, but if Lucas does his job well and the ball keeps getting in good conditions to Gerrard, he will be able to try it 10 times instead of 2, and the chances of 1 in 10 being a goal is MUCH greater than 1 in 2.

That's why people rate Lucas so highly, his attributes are perfect for that job.




9 - I EXPLAIN WHAT I JUST DID THERE WITH A SHORT STORY ABOUT VALUE AND RESPECT. Seriously, it's short, I wrote a 30 pages one as an answer for a youtube comment once, it obviously didn't fit though.


PS: Just a weird exercize on getting the importance of this support. Imagine you are in an archery duel, you and your assistant against an opponent and his assistant. These assistants are crafters who make arrows. Now, the goal of the duel is to shoot a particular deer before your opponent does it.

As you both set on into a forest you both find the deer, now, thing is, you are MUCH better than your opponent, really, by far, you take the first shot...

Chance is, you probably hit the target, because you are great, and great people are great for a reason. But there's a chance of you missing (a fairly small chance in archery -when you are REALLY good- , not so much in Football -even for the best players- ). Your opponent then shoots and misses too.

Thing is, each one of you only had one arrow, (because we were talking about football and football only has 1 ball in the field at a time so I will arbitrarily say you only had 1 arrow or the whole story would be pointless) and that's why you brought your crafters with you.

After both of you missed your shots, both crafters went to work into making new arrows with the wood's trees. You were still very confident, you were MUCH better than him after all, the chances of you missing again are minimal...

You look to your opponent and he is shooting his second arrow, and he misses again, again with the third. and with the fourth.

And your crafter is still making the second.

Your opponent shoots the fifth, sixth and seventh arrows, missing again. On the eighth one, he hits the target. You both go back to town, where they greet your opponent and proclaim him the best archer ever, they give him free beer at the local pub and he gets free service from every one of the cities' huh... working ladies.

You are on the verge of exploding in anger, you tell everyone that he is not really so good, that he missed 7 shots while you only missed one, and that he only won because his crafter was much better and faster than yours. Everyone laughes at you obviously, because everyone knows crafters don't decide matches.

You fire your crafter, hires your opponent's crafter who was annoyed that no one was congratulating him and you tell him:

"Don't worry mate, everytime I win a match from now on, I will tell them of how important you are, and from now on, neither me nor anyone else will ever say that - He who doesn't shoot the arrow, can't be the one who kills the deer."

And so may it be that one day, no one else will say that - He who doesn't score the goal, can't be the one who wins the footbal match.




10 - WANNA SEE THE 4-4-2 THAT I HAVE MENTIONED AT IT'S BEST?


By the way, try searching for this in the youtube search engine:

"Brasil 1982 - The 11 Greatest Goals of Brasil 1982's Magic 11"

You may want to look at this one too, but it's sad    ... You will see what I mean.
"Brazil 1982 - A tribute to the art of football"

That's the perfect Brazilian 4-4-2, the greatest team ever that didn't win, if only Reinaldo or even Careca was fit to play Number 9...
Anyway, there will never be any build-up play like the ones performed over and over again dozens of times in every match by Leandro (Number 2), Junior (Number 6), Falcao (Number 5), Cerezo (number 7), Socrates (Number 8 ) and Zico (Number 10). Not even the 70 team had that (but it was better in the front).

PS: The numbers there are their positions in the team based on my explanation on the 4-4-2 up there, not their actual numbers, I'm not sure of which numbers were Socrates and Cerezo wearing.

PS2: Junior, Leandro and Zico played for my club, maybe someone here remembers these players and their club.




11 - AKA - THE END - WHO THE **** AM I?


Oh yeah, this may be a little weird, you know, me writing a God knows how many lines post considering it's my very first post here on rawk, but I first read the old Lucas thread about 2 years ago I think, and I have been following it since the Argentina x Brasil game last year (I read the whole thing... seriously, it took me like 2 weeks to catch up with it the first time). It started with me wondering "hey, how is that Lucas lad from Gremio I liked so much doing in Liverpool? I bet he's their captain already by now!". So I did a little research and well... let's just say I was surprised, and VERY pissed, murmuring stuff about stupid Brits and their hoofball (btw, reading this was the first step into opening my eyes into the good sides of English Football, and there are plenty of good sides too! Although I still hate hoofball). So as I tried to find someone saying anything GOOD about him, I ended up in that thread.


COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC, YOU MAY WANT TO SKIP THIS PARAGRAPH AND COME BACK WHEN THIS SECTION IS OVER. I WOULDN'T THOUGH, IT'S ABOUT HAIR:

Btw, what was your problem with his hair? Maybe the Brazilian League is not exactly a standard, but his hair was among the most normal ones we have here! Don't believe me? Look at this (if you are worried if these links are safe or not, let me explain from where they are: The first one is from Terra, one of the biggest internet portals in Brazil, kind of like The Sun but without the newspaper. The second one is from Editora Abril, Brazil's biggest publisher with magazines that sell over 10 Million copies a week. So I'm pretty sure they are too rich to rob people. Anyway, if these sites aren't acceptable by the forums rules, please feel free to delete these links and for God's sake don't ban me in my first post, I swear I will read the rules again 3 more times and paying more and more attention each time if that's the case) : http://img.terra.com.br/i/2011/07/21/1960411-7968-atm14.jpg or this http://clubalfa.abril.com.br/top-10/futebol/10-piores-cortes-de-cabelo-do-brasileirao-2011/).



BACK TO LUCAS

Well, there was a lot of crap about him there too, but some very smart comments, and I ended up getting caught up in it and the rest is history.

End of story is, I know some guys here, like sangria, leivapool, red_new etc, better than I know most of my friends, at least when it comes to football obviously, just from the sheer amount of great stuff I've read from them.

So I'm sorry if I - have gone/will mostly likely go - over the top sometimes since to me it feels like I've been taking part in these discussions for over an year 

[El Campeador]

Hahahahaha

Fucking BELTER of a post.

[hitnrock]

Never seen more written in one post   

[redtrev]

Fuck me that's a great effort. Lucas is still shite though!!

Seriouly super post and Lucas will one day captain this club I feel. Was fucking shite against sunderlabd like but thankfully that's the exception nowadays Lucas!

[SMD]

Wow.


A good wow.

[Arcadian]

Must admit I was weary of starting that fucking novel, however it's worth the read if anyone else is debating it. Lighthearted too so no need to be a statto. Great post.

[GEMSTAR58]

PATIENCE. That was the key word written, over and over, by journalists and supporters in assessment of Liverpool’s opening weekend.

Patience. Furiously shorthanded in every notebook and tapped on every laptop, urging the supporters to give Kenny Dalglish and his squad time after a 1-1 draw with Sunderland.

I’ve used the word patience a number of times in this column over the past year, but not this week. Patience, in this instance, is wrong; patience indicates there’s something systematically at fault with the manager or the squad that needs time to be rectified.

Patience was needed once Dalglish took charge as he strived to strengthen the defence, sharpen the attack and give confidence to those bereft of it as a consequence of the previous six months.

It was also needed this summer, as the club gathered players right for the club – indeed, it’s still needed now, as the manager shapes the squad into his own.

You can understand why the word has been used so frequently, though.

After an hour against Sunderland, Anfield became restless. Songs had metamorphosed into sighs. Every misplaced pass was bemoaned; every scuffed shot and missed opportunity met with a collective head in hands. It sounded like impatience.

But this wasn’t impatience. There was nothing to be impatient about. Supporters witnessed what the side was capable of within the opening 15 minutes.

A penalty from Luis Suarez – albeit missed – created from his endeavour; a goal created by Charlie Adam’s left foot. Two things Anfield expected to see this season.

There were other things, too; the crowd had come to expect Pepe Reina commanding, Agger imperviously defending and Lucas tempo-setting. They had been told of what the new signings would bring; Enrique’s intelligence, Henderson’s energy and Downing’s penetration.

Half an hour of the new season had yet to pass and Liverpool supporters saw all of those things. Enrique’s balls to Suarez, Henderson’s relentless partnership with Lucas on the right, and then, what could have been the exclamation point – Downing’s individual attempt at breaking the crossbar in two.

And of course, there was a fine Andy Carroll goal, struck off for having the temerity to jump higher than the defender.

An excellent opening 45 minutes was immediately eradicated when Dowd began the second half. Larsson’s goal acted as a switch; agitation and restlessness followed, both on and off the pitch.

Anfield knew what this newly-constructed side was capable of already. This wasn’t impatience, this was anxiety and frustration - anxiety at not getting the result the first half performance deserved; frustration that the anxiety was well-founded.

Despite what some will say, there were few poor individual performances against Sunderland; the team simply couldn’t regain their first-half form – form the supporters already know they’re capable of.

In the first half, the team appeared on a telekinetic conveyor belt at times, sliding into position perfectly as they waited to receive the ball. The defence looked composed, the midfield fluid and Carroll and Suarez asked the Sunderland defence a lot of questions, most primarily the conundrum of which one they wanted to mark. It was never really answered.

Dalglish’s new men adapted admirably while last year’s stalwarts continued to impress. It changed in the second half, but it was enough to show that, while things will improve, there’s a solid foundation to begin with.

Dowd’s full-time whistle acted as a sharp, piercing needle, popping the pre-season optimism. As the swollen Kop deflated into the streets outside, it was disappointment, not anger, which resided amongst the chattered drone of Walton Breck Road.

It’s not patience Liverpool supporters have to afford the club because already, after one game, they’re aware of the squad’s capabilities. What they’re looking for is context.

The draw against Sunderland is an occurrence throughout every season for every top team. Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester City and Tottenham all dropped points at home in games they should have won. Even Manchester United, with their incredible home record, stumbled to a 2-2 draw against West Brom – a record slightly tarnished by their mediocre away form, worthy champions though they were.

But at the start of a season, it feels different for supporters.

It’s a new start, an unblemished league table, a chance to fantasise with friends about what the next nine months will bring. To exhibit the tempo, understanding and merger of genuine threats all over the pitch in the first half, and fail to replicate that in the next 45 minutes, was disappointing; a disappointment heightened by it coming on the opening weekend.

Sunderland was merely the first game of a long season, and the first half had every supporter abuzz with optimism.

Pepe Reina, Jamie Carragher and Daniel Agger won’t forget how to form a strong defence. Lucas won’t forget how to patrol a midfield. Charlie Adam won’t forget how to deliver a set-piece. Stewart Downing won’t forget how to find Andy Carroll, and Luis Suarez won’t stop being Luis Suarez.

What will be forgotten soon enough is the disjointed second-half performance aided by a very well-organised Steve Bruce side, a poor refereeing performance, injuries to players and the side’s main attacking outlet feeling the strain of Uruguay’s successful Copa America campaign.

When Liverpool line up at the Emirates this weekend, that context will have clarity. Liverpool mightn’t necessarily take the three points, but the support won’t need patience, just the knowledge that the players are capable of playing out Dalglish’s vision of his squad. Over the course of a 38 game league season, that will tell – especially when the first-half performance is maintained throughout the whole game.

Soon, Johnson, Gerrard will return to full fitness, and Suarez will be capable of playing the full 90 minutes. Three players who are a big part of what Dalglish is trying to achieve. Johnson marauding down the right, Gerrard utilising space in the midfield and Suarez finishing everything those two create.

The supporters mightn't need patience, but they're forgiven not wanting to wait much longer to see that in full flow.

http://thekop.liverpoolfc.tv/_Why-context-not-patience-is-needed/blog/5045484/173471.html

[locultom]

Fuck me, that Lucas post was sensational. Well worth a read. Thanks Felipe.

[trenchtownrasta]

I am surprised to find out that Lucas has always played in a similar position to the one he plays in now. It is also great to hear that we as a club actually knew what we were buying before he came in, as opposed to buying "the next Riquelme" and turning him into an ancor man.

Great post, enlightening, but why didn't you post that a year ago? It would have totally blowed my mind back then and fried the brains of some of the imbeciles bouncing around here.

[BabuYagu]

Very interesting post this IMO regarding the management of our wages. Thanks DutchRed

Something funny I just found out. According to the article, 6 of our new boys have a combined wage of 13M a year. So, that's Downing, Adam, Enrique, Coates, Doni and Henderson. Over at Manchester United, there is this fella named Wayne Rooney and when he threatened to leave the club his wages were up to 250.000 a week. 250.000*52 makes up for an annual wage of... 13M! Somewhere else I red that Carroll and Suarez have a combined wage of 6M a year and Bellamy probably has a similair wage. Over at Chelsea there is this Fernando Torres fella who makes 9,1M a year.

So, to conclude: Rooney and Torres are more expensive than Downing, Adam, Enrique, Coates, Doni, Henderson, Suarez, Carroll and Bellamy. God how I love FSG!

[leivapool]

Would it be appropriate to put sabupundit's posts in here from the round table threads, they are genius?

[Hinesy]

help yourself mate.

[Hinesy]

this one is one my favs:

From the thread Will the Torres Saga Help Heal our Club?

my scouse the Bart (not Simpson) saying in most tragic play ‘bout life an’ times Sid James (King Leer) “sharper than serpent tooth is ungrateful child” and terribly sorry my old bean but, with a regret, scouses are finding out hard weigh how much true is this in relation off El NINNY the kid cobra snake in questions WRIT SABU PUNDIT.

This little ball shitter Basturk is done a Dioufing of the dummy an’ flob all over Ma Libpole isn’t it? She is divorce us now an’ can be call former child star, she is a Shoddy Temple, an’ false gods in general.

Perhap Canny Sahib should smack it in face with fishing stick because “spare rod and spoil child” as proverbs. This ex Ninny Scouse is in fax RAT an’ spoil all shiny memories an’ forgettin’ like sum Alzheimer all loves and excuse the good trustin’ scouses was makin’ for it when blatantly, in albeit a 20/20 arse-site, she not given a god damn ‘bout World Finest Club for good wile now. As Pussy Sludge; If she plays him for a fool He's the last one to know, Lovin' eyes can't ever see the truth. You fallen idle when really a fallen idol all time, rat face. Like a stupid “we love you long time” but scouses not Saigon slag, in FAX you is slapper, what fake romance when your a gender (always in question what with so hairless) is entire separate. SHAME Ninny! SHAME!

El Ninny she is Barings bank off razor edge tooth snappy at hand what used fed it. She make awful despise worthy commentaries in press Kong-France when unveil or more proper unmask as Chesney player.  Filthy ape turned-coat an’ ironic WORTHLESS Quisling pipe “join big club now”. This so cock-eye Marty Feldman jealous, oh Ninny. “I just want be at the level I supposed to stay at”: not only contemptible lack humility but simple solution: make house in sewer (not Emiliano) wiv’ Diouf as lodger.

This child flown nest but Libpole re-COOP plenty dollar from fleeing chicken Nando. She busy French kiss Chesney badge these day but even them “fan” must figure it emptier than double mastectomy bra. Hissy villain, yore fork tongue is plane to see.  Thank you very much.

[leivapool]

Laughed too much at this one.  The bit about Raul is even better given his subsequent departure.

my scouse this hysteric victories what shod be cellar braided, like subterranean Desmond's, 'cos bean a dick ate off waitin' after the Mr Booby Camera snap shot up Semen BUTT instead some pricks is folk arse why she ain't 0-6 vs Arseholes FC when she was weeker than Oliver!'s cruel gruel "so police Canny, we want sum whore." Kaur lummy! Them cants wanna strangulate by Boston's finest an' then there be Morgana Phelan off satisfaction in vengeful yet benevolent heart of SABU PUNDIT rites SABU PUNDIT.

Mata (not Juan, no, nut for us, my deers) plaid into the Libpole graspin' hand when this boy-tank had a red cart inserted up his PingPong wiv' foul more tasteless, more offensive than even pinta Green Kink IPA on our Mr Luger Sliver. This a pivot hole mormon in style Osmond's, a turnin' point, am think the scouse will agree.

Heir plait impotent part in this fixer. Witless it, the beer liga, lickpenny Cut-Price Waterhouse accountant manger Arson Wanga an' his barnet. Once so luxuriant, oh so viscous, yet shockin' red-juiced to Aloo-Pea-Sheer granny by miserable shower (both Wether an' the ex-sporters). This former Samson wish he still had a Sansom, innit, instead o'pack o'puppies he busy groomin' an' later flog at mark-up preposterous. His era of totalitarian football is comin' to a glistenin' end like GadaffiDuck's. An' Mr Roma Relish, who inexplicable glue sparse pelted AIDS ravaged stoat on bonce, like sickly Travis Biggles. His alms greener than ink critter boo Hulk, he SMASH from lethal bench. In dated gag, his combine with electrifiyin' Mr Loose Wires was slicker than Florida coast.

Libpole she in courage wiv' vast majority poor session at 51%. I'm sayin' to you, Mr Surly Atom is bloated waddlin' gat toothed slug to sum but he remorseless conductor in Mittal off park an' an instrumental in maintain the ball. Plus he show unexpect yet touchin' sentimentalism by Mr Alan-Zorro spoof shots to embarrass them's Steve Backley goatkeeper call Watch-it Chesney. An' furthermore, water 'bout the Mr Hearsay Eureka who school infant terrible Master Walnut? Eureka be olive oil lappin' an' muscular Spinich: a scouse Popeye. Thank you very much.

[i6uuaq]

In case people have missed this in the Lucas Thread - a long insightful post on Brazilian football - compared with English football and where Lucas fits into it. A phenomenal 1st post.

The quality on RAWK is incredible.

[thegoodfella]

In case people have missed this in the Lucas Thread - a long insightful post on Brazilian football - compared with English football and where Lucas fits into it. A phenomenal 1st post.

Belter of a post, I wonder what was Pistolero's reply.

[redbyrdz]

Belter of a post, I wonder what was Pistolero's reply.

If you click on the link in the quote - where it says "Quote from:", it'll take you to where the post is. That's just cost me an hour because there's some really good stuff bang in the middle of the Lucas thread. Been avoiding that for ages because i thought it's full of 'he's shit' type of posts.

[El Campeador]

The greatest response to a simple question I ever read on RAWK.

"What was your first derby?"

Everton 0 Liverpool 4, 4th Round FA cup 29th January 1955. My Dad got me a ticket for this match after the Reds had managed to defeat the mighty Lincoln City at home in a replay on the afternoon of 12th January. No floodlights at Anfield or Goodison in those days of course, so the match started at 2.15 pm.

Everton were undefeated at home, and at the top of Division 1 (having been promoted the previous season whilst LFC were relegated). No European Cup in those days, but according to their fans the Blues were the top team in Europe because Everton had recently been the first side to defeat the Wolves after that team had beaten Honved of Hungary in a televised friendly. The Hungarian national side in those days were generally recognised as probably the world's best and the nucleus of that team played for Honved.
 
In contrast the Reds were struggling mid table in the Second. Their home form was OK, but was pitiful away having gained just two draws and ten defeats shipping 39 goals in the process including 9 at Birmingham the previous month. I suspect my Dad let me have the front row, halfway line, upper Bullens ticket because he bottled it !

All around were Blues fans apart from the father and daughter on the row behind me. When Billy Liddell opened the scoring in the first half he went berserk. "Doesn't matter about the result, we've scored" and he was even happier when Johnny Evans made it two. Dave Hickson decided to even things up early in the second with a very late tackle on Laurie Hughes which put him out of the game. No substitutes in those days either so Laurie stayed out hobbling on the left, but despite effectively being down to ten men the Reds scored a further two. Evans again and A'court I think.  Well before the end of the game the terraces had emptied of blue scarves, and when the final whistle sounded, the eight year old Everton fan sitting next to me (who had with his Dad been joshing me for an hour before the game) burst into tears. For a nano second I almost felt sorry the Reds had won.

No derby victory since then has surpassed the euphoria I felt that day, but the '86 Final came close

[sattapaartridge]

That Lucas post was absolutely top notch!

Absolutely fantabulous. Thanks.

[royhendo]

Great from Stanfo on the newly changed Academy rules. A great discussion on the thread generally.

I can understand why from a purely fans/football club perspective removing the distance rules might seem appealing, however for the 95-99% of kids within the academy system, who are there to make up the numbers, it will only create problems.

Imagine you are a 13 year old lad (I use this age as U14 is really the start of "serious" academy football) and you live in lets say Nottingham. You are at a local academy, but suddenly Liverpool, Everton, Man Utd or even Chelsea show an interest in you. You are a very good prospect, but not one of the 1-2% of "certainties" that exist within the system, what do your parents do? Do they completely disregard your schooling and undertake the 2 hour plus journey 5 or 6 times a week, including maybe £20+ petrol costs each day, or maybe move house if this is financially possible (and yes this does happen). Remember most academies schooling option is only really set up for scholars, who have already done their GCSE's and even then it is poor, in the shape of BTEC's in sport. What a choice for a 13 year old's family, driven by the dream of fame and fortune, when the reality as we all know from this thread, even for the 18-19 year olds who have "made it" is sadly different.

The previous scenario is bad enough, but that is for the top 5-10% of kids within the 10,000 or so currently playing academy football every year. Imagine the problems and uncertainties it will cause for the other 90% who may not make it in football (thats roughly 9,000 kids every year), but who are still needed to enable the top kids to play what is a 16 player team sport. Where now they live in a world of uncertainty, where they or their parents are looking over their shoulder for the latest "local" kid to take their place, now it becomes a worldwide threat, with the inevitable comings and goings.

All this is without the previously mentioned threat to smaller clubs and their sometimes excellent academies, run on a shoestring budget, who have actually developed some of the talent that the big clubs will be poaching. As a lifelong red I obviously want the best team with the best players, but not at the expense of children who are already in most cases used like pieces of meat.

[leivapool]

This post sums up everything that needs to be said about those who don't rate Lucas, particularly the last paragraph.  Some of our fans are more anyonebutLucas than anyonebutManU:

And criticism has to be considered in the context of what's going on elsewhere. If Lucas is the only player in the team who can do the covering work to a satisfactory level, then him moving out of that position and into the attacking third means there is a gap in an area of the pitch where such a gap is poison. While this doesn't mean he can't do it at all, it means he has to pick his chance, when he is confident the opposition aren't capable of exploiting that gap. Which means his chances of getting forward are very rare indeed. And if there are few chances of getting into the attacking third, how fewer are the chances of getting a decent sight on goal? And just what proportion of these chances do you expect him to convert, for him to satisfy you with his goal tally? We've seen the specialist forwards waste chance after chance, and yet Lucas is expected to convert a far higher proportion of much rarer and much less clearcut chances. In addition to being held responsible for protecting the defence.

I think Lucas will be a better player in all aspects than Souness by the time he satisfies his critics, such is the superhuman level he's expected to reach and maintain. There is criticism, then there is unreasonable criticism. Still, at least unreasonable criticism is a step up from media cliches, so things have improved a bit. Expecting him to score a decent total is unrealistic in the current situation, but is hopeful and postive, and isn't much different from the unrealistic hopes that I have for other players.

Now only passes sideways, gives away free kicks, can't tackle, most unBrazilian Brazilian ever, now that's just shite. The really shit posters you can recognise by their opinion that a player is better than Lucas by virtue of being NotLucas. They don't really look at how the game is played, but they're adamant that Lucas Isn'tGoodEnough, and therefore NotLucas is automatically better. Quite a few of them looked forward to Poulsen and Adam displacing Lucas from his position, which they were perfectly equipped to do given their skillsets, because they were NotLucas.

[royhendo]

I do too.

One of the reasons Skrtel is able to move with the ball now is that he has more room. When Carragher plays opponents don't bother marking him or the space in front of him. There's no point because there's no chance of Carragher moving with the ball at his feet into those vacant spaces. So what do opponents do instead? They concentrate on Skrtel and make sure he has no time to play the ball and no room in which to move. The ball tends to end up with Reina. Obviously when Agger is playing this strategy becomes impossible. Indeed it becomes suicidal because Agger needs no second invitation to advance with the ball. Opponents try to block him off. Ergo, more space and more time for Skrtel.

In the modern game it's important that both centre backs are comfortable on the ball and that both are capable of starting attacks. The medieval idea that teams need to pair a 'no-nonsense' centre back with a 'nonsense' one is an idea that should never get beyond the Brittania stadium or the Reebok where insecurities always override ambition. That so many Liverpool fans have subscribed to such a 'loser's idea' for so long is merely an index of how far we have fallen since the Hansen-Lawrensen days. We came to believe that a hoofer was necessary to counterbalance the flair of the man alongside him. In fact it counteracted it. The man with flair (Agger in our case) struggled to express it because he was trying to do a two-man job.

The Agger-Skrtel partnership should have been allowed to develop about three years ago. I know Agger's injuries haven't helped matters, but we all know that these were less important than the sacred status of Carragher in the Liverpool defence. And Carragher's permanence had dreadful consequences for the way Liverpool played. Alone among the top teams we struggled to recycle the ball with pace and fluency and therefore our midfielders were always short of time. Probably the single most important explanation for our better retention of the ball this season is Carragher's demotion to the bench.

I feel a little sorry for Skrtel though. I think his days will be numbered at Anfield. Not because of Carragher, but because of Coates. Coates is better in the air, obviously braver, and much, much quicker to pass the ball. Except for one brain-fart near the end Skrtel was excellent in defence on Saturday and - as we've all noted - very decent on the ball too. But he's still a little reluctant to move into empty space whenhe has possession. He still stutters with the ball at his feet where Agger glides. The opportunity will eventually come to Coates. I'm hopeful he'll grasp it - and then we'll see some football. Some real stuff.

[Mutton Geoff]

Great from Stanfo on the newly changed Academy rules. A great discussion on the thread generally.

This happened not at 13 but at 15 for a Nottingham lad called Mellis, he was already at Sheffield United and education was already of no real importance to him, however during his year 11, aged 15-16  Chelsea paid Sheffield 100K for him, and since has been in the youth and reserves and was loaned out to Southampton for a while, he plays in midfield and as he is still at the club his career is at a point of stagnation where perhaps better and younger players are pushing to get in the first team before him.
For me had he stayed at the Blades he would by now I am certain have featured in their first team often, and gained much better experience and possibly watched by Prem Scouts.

[royhendo]

Thought this was brilliant, as was the exchange that led to it. In a post match thread. There is hope.

I included you mate not ‘cos of anything you’ve written tonight, but because of a post I saw you make the other day (on the main board I think) where you were arguing that it has to be this season. I think it was after Alan_F made reference to our co-efficient in Europe falling with another season out. For what it’s worth, I agree with you about a few of the posters who I think we’re both too kind to mentioned by name, but I’m pretty sure we’d come up with the same list of four or five if pushed.

I think you’re using the context of the other teams and not looking at whether we ourselves are improving, and that’s what I disagree with. I’m not saying the others aren’t a team in transition. United, Arsenal and Chelsea all are. And United and Arsenal are showing it on the pitch. Chelsea seem to be going back and forth deciding whether they’re going to commit to that transition or not.

My point is that you’re saying we’ve got to do this and we’ve got to do it now or we’re going to fall away. You’re judging off what’s going on around us and not ourselves. We’re obviously a better team. And we’re obviously in transition. Whether you like that or Jaffod finds it difficult to palate doesn’t really matter does it. I don’t know about United, but I checked this – I think it was after the Swansea match – and roughly half of our match day squads are made up of players who haven’t been at the club a year. That wasn’t including Doni either. Nor was it including Spearing, Kelly and to a lesser extent Flanagan and Robinson when they’re involved. How many players who are actually involved for us aren’t new? Lucas, Reina, Johnson, Agger, Skrtel, Carragher, Kuyt, Maxi, Gerrard, Aurelio. I don’t think Gerrard’s managed 5 games under Kenny either. I’m not using it as an excuse. I think it’s too legitimate to be an excuse. The turnover of players in the last 12 months has been immense. So whether it sits well or not, the argument that we’re in transition has validity.

Let’s get this right. You may think that we need to get Europe this season, for a number of valid reasons, but the owners did put a time table on it themselves just last year. People have run with them saying we should be aiming for top four (which we should, and we clearly are, even if we’re falling short presently). They said on the LFCTV channel that their view of it is as a three year project. Whether that sits too close to Houllier’s Five Year Plan or whatever else, but that’s what they said. Coincidentally Kenny has a three year contract at the moment.

When does it stop being a work in progress? I’m not going to say when. People make up their own minds about that. I thought after 6 years that it was Rafa, most on here didn’t. People will decide when they do. I do think that it’s unfair as hell to burden Kenny with this pressure of having to make-do double quick because others have taken so long. He’s six months into his job proper, and I think we’re quite fortunate that we’ve already got his team sorted. There’s a fair argument to say that the others, especially Rafa, spend a good two or three years waiting to get something resembling their own squad. Kenny’s had it in 6 months. So now the work of going forward should start.

I’ll say this as well. I think by doing so well with a team that squad back end of last season Kenny has made a small rod for his own back this. He gave people the false impression that we could go forward with a lot of that lot when I don’t think that was ever the intention, or possible personally. By doing what we did against Birmingham and Fulham I think people have come in with the expectation that we should be ripping teams apart from the off (and we are to an extent, just not finishing the chances).

I was listening to someone the other day (can’t remember who, just some press gobshite) making the point that Mancini spent his first season at City – where he also failed to get into the Champions League – making sure they were very good defensively, then built on going forward. Rafa spent the first two seasons getting us the best defence in Europe, and even whilst scoring more, we weren’t this good going forward (nor were City IMHO). Houllier did the same thing as well. Mourinho does it as well usually. A lot of managers build teams from the back. At the moment we’ve got the best defensive record in the league, and for my money, the best balanced defence since I’ve been watching the club. I think we’ve had better individuals in certain positions, but we haven’t had a defence where each individual is so comfortable in a 1-vs-1 situation, which I think bodes much better than our previous defences for playing attacking football.

So yeah, before I completely veer off Mt Tangent. I don’t go along with throwing the “it’s just a work in progress” away as a lame excuse, or being aggravated by it given when using it in context to the other teams around us. Really, we can only focus on ourselves at the moment. I think we’re moving forward pretty fucking quickly, as we should be given the resources. Maybe you don’t, or maybe you don’t think it’s quick enough relative to those around us, but we can’t control that.

[royhendo]

Only fair to post the reply aswell.

See mate, that's all I'm asking for, some reasoned debate without people going mental at each other.

I appreciate the reply, and I don't want to give people the wrong idea here because I think somewhere people are misunderstanding what I've been saying. I'm not dismissing Kenny or the fact that it's his first season in charge, and neither am I writing off the season. This started by me simply asking why people who aren't happy with the way we've played tonight get shot to pieces, and where it's headed makes me look like I'm moaning about every aspect of the season so far, whereas that's really only come about because of answering others' questions.

What it boils down to for me is that I genuinely believe we're going to get left behind if we aren't smarter with who we buy, and I believe we'll start to really really see that next season if we don't qualify for the champions league. I think quite a few are really missing just how important that competition is to this club, and just how necessary it is that we're back there right away. I can't stress that enough to people who constantly say "give it time", as it's a view that I completely disagree with. We don't have time. Time is what teams like Aston Villa thought they probably had before they got completely set adrift. Time is what Chelsea and Arsenal don't have on their side now when competing against Man City. That luxury is gone, it's right out the fucking window. Someone above said that the 08/09 season came after several years of building. It did. It also came at a time when Spurs and Man City were nowhere. That time is now also over. We do NOT have the luxury of time anymore, and I cringe every time I hear someone talking about "next season" and "so-and-so is here for 5 years, give them time". Nah, I won't give them time because we really just do not have time to give them.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to be playing for the Europa League every season then yes, we have time. We can bed in several players all at once, hope that comes off, maybe even spend another £55m on two really average players just to secure 5th or 6th place, but don't expect us to be finishing in the top 4 because I'm afraid it's just not going to work out that way. It's one or the other for me - take our time and finish as also-rans, or be a bit more prudent and break back in to the top 4.

So what do I mean by "be more prudent"? Well, why the fuck do people keep saying we've bought potential in Andy Carroll for £35m? Why not play Suarez upfront on his own for 6 months (because let's face it, that's what we're doing now!) and then see who's available in the summer? And then try to sign someone who is actually currently nearer the finished article? Why did we suddenly decide that we're in a position to spunk £35m on a player who might take several years to actually blossom in to a top striker? Especially when our current set up doesn't even play to his strengths, doesn't even INCLUDE the guy. Sure you'll get some disagree with that and that's fine, but for me it's a really shitty move by the club, and it absolutely stunk of us just trying to make a statement and not much else. I would have preferred we waited, thought about it, got the right player for now and worried about the future at another time.

Anyway, for me it's about that luxury of time, and I truly believe we do not have it at all. Nothing to do with anything else really, I just come back to that thought whenever I see us play like shit, drop some points, and then see others harping on about time like we don't have several clubs pulling away from us constantly.

[Rafa_La]

I'm sorry but I am still getting my head around how wonderful our response has been.

Luis has had a horrible week. His name has been dragged through the mud and he has been labelled one of the most dispicable things you could be labelled and punished out of turn on the basis of one mans word.

And though he and his family will be hurting;

Kenny Dalglish the Club's greatest no. 7 and your manager, your boss, the fella who decided whether you play or not, walks out wearing a t-shirt with your name above his famous number on his back and your face on the front. For the world's media to see. Backs you on twitter, in an official statement, to the FA, on the television.

While your teammates wear the same t-shirt and issue an incredible statement.
The supporters sing your name relentlessly, and fly your national flag proudly.
The whole Club backs you to the hilt, wholeheartedly, sticking their neck on the block to clear and preserve your good name.

Luis will be hurting, he will hate England, he will be unsettled, but he will bloody love Liverpool FC more than ever.
It is your home Luis, and we are all behind you.

If not suitable etc etc.

[fosspowered]

Thought this was exceptional.

There's something a lot of people aren't really picking up on. Racism isn't simply just a case of saying things like (and I beg your pardon in advance, I'm merely using these terms as example) n*gger, p*ki, desert rat, k*ke, etc. It's perfectly possible to be racist without using explicit language.

In 2003, the day war was declared on Iraq I decided to carry one of the placards that were used in the protests in London against the prospect of going to war. It was one of the official 'Stop the War' ones, so not something I made myself. All I did was carry it around. I took it with me to school and displayed it prominently in the car and carried it around the school campus. My school had a large cadet movement and quite a few teachers were members of the TA who faced the prospect of being called up. Needless to say, it was a massive talking point and I was well aware that I would be drawing attention to myself but I did it anyway. Many teachers commented in class or in private to me that they either agreed or disagreed with my point of view but respected the way I protested.

Except one teacher who stopped me in the hallway and asked me what passport I had. I'd never been taught by this particular teacher so I was confused that she'd ask such a blunt question without introducing herself or even asking me why I was protesting. I asked her why she wanted to know and why it was important and after going around in circles, she conceded that she was interested in my insight. I explained that I was British but my roots were from Iraq. She seemed satisfied by this answer and walked away.

The next day, I was telling a mate about this and told him it was really confusing. He said that he'd been in her class that afternoon and she asked them if anyone was friends with me or knew me. Then she started asking them if I was British and then wondered if I "paid any taxes" and then concluded that my family and I "must have enjoyed the benefits of the education and health systems."

Now, forget the details for the time being. For someone, anyone at all, to say that about me and my family is utterly disgraceful and at best xenophobic and at worst horribly racist. I was absolutely appalled and shaken and the only thing I could think of doing was calling my dad. Who incidentally worked in the public sector the entire time he was in this country (so directly giving something back to the country) as well as sending me to a private school (albeit on a large scholarship, otherwise there was no way we could afford it). So our 'burden' on the state was much lower than average, not to mention directly contributing to this daft cow's pay.

Needless to say, my dad went nuclear and was on the phone to the school, solicitors, you name it. Official statements were taken and the best the school could offer was that she 'didn't recall' what she said and she apologised for any distress caused. She didn't even have the guts to say this to my face, let alone in public similar to the initial comments to the class I wasn't even in.
Given the school's weak stance, I ended up simply leaving the week after.

She didn't call me a sand n*gger, she didn't even say anything to my face. Basically, she just regurgitated the sort of crap you read in the Daily Express or Mail in front of other people. I doubt you'll find anyone who will defend her actions, though, at the very least in airing political views in school. I found it incredibly insulting.

What does this have to do with the Suarez issue? In my opinion, this dilutes the issue of racism in such a way that can only harm the fight against prejudice and ignorance. I said when the allegations first surfaced that I couldn't believe Luis was racist but if he was, I wouldn't want him at the club a day longer. When I heard he said the word 'negrito', rather than immediately jump to conclusions I waited for the club's reaction and for a more informed explanation of the connotations of that term.
In fact, the whole issue has just made Evra look much worse. Saying 'get your hands off me, you South American' is far worse in my eyes than calling someone 'negrito'. The connotations of Evra's statement suggests that 'South American' is a derogatory term, much like that teacher implying that my family had no place in the country and that we offered nothing to society, are far more serious than Suarez calling him negrito. In fact, if Evra was communicating with him in Spanish, would that not suggest that Evra was well aware of the nuances of Spanish-speaking cultures? Particularly with Hernandez at the club who has shown since 2007 that he uses that term as well.
I wish that we lived in a society here that didn't give two shits about someone's skin colour or ethnicity. I don't label myself as anything other than British because what else am I? I was raised here and my mother tongue is English. Sure, I have a different background and I'm not ashamed of it. But why am I different to any other Brits because of where my parents or grandparents were from? Is coming down hard on Suarez for using the word 'negrito' going to bring us closer to that? I doubt it. But I can tell you that letting Evra's words slide is more damaging.

Racism comes in many shapes or forms, to different degrees. You could argue the toss about the place of 'negrito' in British society all you like but there's absolutely no call for saying something like 'get your hands off me, you South American.' And right now, there's only one person who has admitted to saying something in anger and it wasn't Luis Suarez.

[El Campeador]

I remember that story - boss post SMD.

[archie]

Thanks for highlighting those Roy, once again showing the importance of this thread.

[Alf Garnett!]

Red number seven deserves a mention for this..

Really not that simple, even though I understand why you're saying it is.

In terms of a strict, technical application of the law, you can argue that it is. After all, Suarez used a term that a reasonable man could take to be insulting and made reference to black, which is the colour of Evra's skin, and Evra took offence. This fits the definition and therefore makes him guilty.

BUT

1. Evra openend the conversation with (it seems) a pretty vile, racist insult, IN SPANISH.

2. Suarez response was patronising (I don't think it was endearing or friendly use of the word negro/negrito, nor do I think it was meant in a racially perjorative way) and also IN SPANISH.

3. The initial insult and response have been translated into English such that they both lose their meaning in the language in which they were used, the language in which Evra started the exchange in Spanish. The two terms are now entirely different pollluted as they are by British colonial history and racism rather than Spanish colonial history and racism.

4. The charge is about racist language. One of two things should have happened.

Either...It should not be translated. It should be judged in the idiom and with the context this gives.

Or... After translation, Suarez could only be found guilty, but the culturo-linguistic complexities should've completely mitigate Suarez's sentence such that it should merely have been a large suspended sentence hanging over him, with LFC guaranteeing to educate him and the FA/PFA/Kick it out campaign learning from the experience and setting up bespoke educational packages for foreign players to understand the cultural differences and aceeptable norms in Britain.


But no, scapegoat the foreigner, make a cheap political point and bury the real problems. The FA way

[BabuYagu]

I particularly liked this timeline of events montysmum put up in Luis Suarez FA charge thread. It was in response to this whopper:-
Quote from: Third Account on Today at 07:01:33 PM
You're spot on. We've embarrassed ourselves big time on this issue.
I couldn't believe the club printed t-shirt. When you think what that gesture is usually reserved for, global emergencies, serious tragedies, the urgent support of charities.
Face the music and accept the punishment so we can move on. Only more damage is being caused as far as I'm concerned.

So let me get this straight.

You think the fact that Liverpool Football Club, its manager and players standing strongly behind a player they believe has been persecuted and wrongly labelled a racist is embarassing?

You would rather they sit back, see the newspaper headlines yelling RACIST, hear the crowds screaming abuse at one of our players and just bow their heads and do nothing.

As far as I am concerned, if they had taken that course of action it would have been embarassing, in fact it would have been disgraceful.

This is a ridiculous statement.  I got some t shirts printed for Christmas - was that wrong?  Should I have been told by the shop that they only deal with natural disasters?  The players obviously feel deeply that what is going on at the moment is wrong.  Their statement and show of support couldn't have made that plainer, and if people want to throw their hands up in horror over that, I would suggest that they are pandering to the newspaper headline writers and TalkSport journo's rather than examing the events of the past few weeks.

Ok, lets have a look at what has happened, and the punishment meted out.

As far as I am concerned Suarez has been made a scapegoat and is paying the price for a series of events that have built up together.

**  England get badly mauled at the World Cup bidding and accusations about illegality in the bidding process are made that cause great embarrassment and trouble for Sepp    Blatter and his cronies.

         The FA oppose Blatters re-election.

**     Suarez hits the Prem and teams find him a nuiscance.

         Ferguson labels him a diver,  TalkSport devote a programme to debate 'Is Louis Suarez the dirtiest player in the Prem, some no mark goalie calls him a diver.

**     Suarez starts to get the wrong end of decisions in games, and little if any protection from referees.

**     Blatter makes a comment about how racist remarks on the pitch should be dealt with by a handshake, causes fury (mainly in this country) and is forced to apologise.

**     Evra makes a post match complaint about Suarez making a racist remark, and the FA investigate.

        They do not subsequently investigate or punish Evra for using a pejorative word even though he admitted the offence.

**     The FA hand out an unprecendented ban and fine, to make Blatter and his cohorts see how this sort of offence should be handled, a great excuse for some more FIFA    bashing.

**     Daily Mirror has a bold banner headline saying simply RACIST. Talksport spend days focussing on pulling one of our players to bits, while every time he now sets foot on the pitch he is subjected to boos and abuse.

**     John Terry (subject of a Police investigation into racist comments) plays and gets the following headline in the papers -"John Terry a heroic Leader", "The caring side of John Terry" (picture of him with a black baby).

**     Even if found guilty in a Court of law, Terry can  not  be awarded a ban for 8 games, or a £40,000 fine.  Instead, he can be given a maximum fine of £2500.  A bit of a difference there isn't there?

and despite ALL of this you think the club should have sat back, accepted what the FA have done without any protest or sign of discontent?

You say that Liverpool fans should make up their own minds about all this, well believe me I have done a lot of reading, a lot of listening, and I have made my mind up.

The treatment of Suarez stinks.  I know it, the players know it, the manager, who I happen to think is a fairly decent chap, knows it and an awful lot of decent Liverpool supporters know it.

Shame you don't feel the same.
       

[the 92A]

Sometimes they don't have to be long and wordy they just make complete sense, loved this one from Vulmea in the blackburn post match roundup, maybe because it's one of the most sensible I've read recently anywhere.
 
 
 

Thought this was the well considered, none knee jerking thread? Seem to have stumbled into the we're all doomed, isn't it terrible thread?

We've missed more chances than any other team - we've also created more - for this to be explained as we aren't good enough is missing the bleedin point isn't it? Someone's cup is well and truly half empty eh?

The keeper pulling off one blinding save in a match isn't a result of our players being crap its a result of the keeper pulling off a blinding save.  The 'we need better finishing' argument is fine and even yesterday there were at least two occasions when a better finish would have been a goal ok but offside goals, keeper mistakes, mishit shots, deflections, the ball just to one side of the keeper, through their legs,   etc happen all the time - just not to us currently.

Belief is a funny old thing in football - keepers are turning up believing they'll have  a blinder, our strikers are believing they can't score  - whether its  a stand in keeper, a lad playing against his idols, first time at anfield etc etc it shouldn't really matter but it does - every team seems to have a story at the moment - whether is bottom of the table blackburn, resurgent Wigan, plucky Swansea, plucky Norwich, unbeatable City...blah blah blah and next its Super Krul - we should be planting the seed now that he's had so much luck all season friday he's going to have  a mare, that some team is going to be obliterated and its going to be sooner rather than later and that when they do all the others will follow
someone will get a battering, there will be a game thats going to see everything we hit go in, maybe three games, maybe half a season - the players and the fans need to keep believing that - the crowd have lost that belief and so have the players and now its starting to look like some self fulfilling prophecy

we need a change - we need to believe that when we shoot its going to go in - how Kenny makes that happen I dont know - a change of personnel, put them in blindfolds, tell them to use ttheir wrong foot,  stand on one leg and spit over their left shoulder, he needs to get them to play without the fear of missing which is crucifying us-  I've no bleedin idea how but somehow he needs to tap in to that inner voice in people , the one thats currently telling people same ol, same ol as soon as we miss a chance - and get it to shut the fuck up along with those blerts who are judging players based on undeserved results,  when the lads are low in confidence but still outplaying teams

didn't think we played great yesterday but again we did more than enough to win regardless of the percieved performances of certain players - other teams turn games where they dont deserve to win into victory we do the reverse = we need to chnage that around and that less to do with whether Carroll is good or very good and more to do with whether he believes he's going to score.

[royhendo]

Good time to repost this I reckon. It's a bit special.

Got to say something here, it saves answering all the PM's I'm getting about Ray. It's nice but people think I'm on the ale and going off the rails. So, to clear it up...
Never mind the leathering Ray would have gave us if he'd got his arse back in here, if he was here right now he'd be getting the toe of my boot right up his jacksie. But I'm not on the piss or loosing the plot. And Ray would rightfully leather me if I was. As we all know, that's the sort of lad he was. And that's the sort of lad I have all the time in the world for.

Yes, we hit it off and I can't speak for him, but from my side of things... we'd became really good friends. But again, that was the sort of lad Ray was. So when people are wondering why they are so upset at loosing someone they only knew from the internet... I never had the pleasure of meeting Ray myself.

Something always seemed to stop it from happening despite us planning it many times. I'll say more about that in a moment. But it was strange, we made arrangements to meet up on loads of occasions but somehow it just never happened. I was boycotting going throughout the H&G fight and the Hodge Podge debacle. But even on the times I went to Anfield before that, for one reason or another Ray couldn't make it. Which is weird when you consider how many home games the lad had missed. I wish I had his record at hand. I can't remember it off the top of me head, but it was phenomenal.

But sadly, it's just the way it was... he even got me tickets to one game, but couldn't meet me and we even missed each other at away games we were both at. And here's the topper... at the SOS march before the home game against United we somehow even missed each other because Ray, being the lad he was, had given his ticket to his own lad, and he just went on the march and left after it. Obviously, before and after, I just went on the piss. So, that was that. We must have been marching up the street together and didn't even meet because I probably swerved off into one of the watering holes en route.
And I don't believe in fate or any of that bollacks but that's what happened, and we never did meet.

But here's the thing about getting to know someone through these boards, and why people really have lost someone close even if they haven't met the man... I spent hours on end talking to Ray on here, in the threads, in private and on the phone. I probably spoke to him more than me own family over the last year or so. I know she threatened to bin bag me on many occasions because I was.... "Click, click, fucking clicking again."

So, yeah I knew Ray better, and spoke to him more, than I do with me best mates. And Ray was a mate, a really good one. So no one should feel weird for grieving over a lad they only knew from on here. Look at how many people he affected just through his posts. When do any one of us really listen to people's opinions face to face, without butting in and forcing our own on it or just blanking it or whatever we do. Well, you couldn't do that when talking with Ray anyway, but of course people couldn't help but be affected to some degree by such bang on fact, wisdom, intelligence, philosphy, opinion and humour. I'll miss that greatly.

And there was no way I could have spent all that time talking to the lad and not loving him. Yes. We all can all imagine what he'd say if he seen that. I can hear the ribbing now, but you all know what I mean. And here's the thing... obviously you all know that once you got to know Ray it was impossible not to like and respect the fella. But why Ray took to me is absolutely beyond me. Make no mistake, when I spoke to Ray I knew I was talking to a far more intelligent man than myself. But again, that was the sort of fella Ray was... He could drink with Toffs and Tramps. Or as me Aul Fella would say... he covered converse with Cabbages and Kings, never mind about them.

We got close, like we all did, during that struggle we had. It's hard not to feel a bond with lads who are fighting a common cause. But the thing about Ray was, if someone needed a boot up the arse, he was more than capable of handing it out. But with me, he was the calming influence when I went raging in like a dickhead.  But when I was kicking off, or doing me general rebel rousing, which was all I really did, Ray was always there to either calm me done or to help me with his nouse, intelligence and the facts that he always seemed to have when he needed to back up anything he said. And him being a rag arse like meself, I take me hat off to him for that. Lying in gutters and looking at stars, and all that good stuff.

There was some very intelligent and highly educated lads involved in that fight. All of them were cleverer than me. That's not false modesty. It's truth. I have no problem with that. And whenever I come unstuck over something, usually making a knob of meself, I had Ray there to back me up. But again, that's the sort of fella Ray was. The sort of lad who wouldn't have ran and left you in the bad old mad days when we was kids, but who grew up and was able to more than hold his own when digs weren't enough to win the fight anymore. You only have to consider the impression he made on John Henry to know what an intelligent but bang on decent fella he was.

To me, Ray was like a throw back to them old socialist fellas who we were lucky enough to have known as kids... a rag arse who refused to be held down and learnt to fight them at their own game. That's another reason why loosing Ray feels this horrible. He was one of a dying breed. There ain't many left.

As for the meeting up...
We were actually plotting a few things when he was taken. Neither of us mentioned it in here, but we would have. I even feel a bit funny saying it now, but I'm not talking out of school...
it's far easier for me to get to away games, even Euro aways than come home. Ray hadn't been to a Euro away in years and would always quiz me when I got back from one. And he really fancied going on a Euro away.

So we made a pact... once Hodge Podge was gone, we'd be on one an all. And we was making plans to get to at least one European away game this season and taking the better halves with us. It was only at the plotting stage, but we was both really looking forward to it. Sadly, I don't know why. But it seems it was never meant to be, even though I think all that stuff is a load of shite. And I had a few other little things going on that Ray was helping and advising me with. So, yes. If I could I would boot his arse right now.

We'd better start watching ourselves lads. I've buried some real good uns, no older than meself over the last year or so. In fact, I've been to that many funerals lately, all of good lads that should have many years left in them, that I turned over a bit of a new leaf...
I haven't had a bevvie since New Year. And I've been on a bit of a health kick lately. Of course I wanted to get bladdered when I got the news, but funny enough knowing Ray it gave me more determination to carry it through...
I've been on this cabbage soup diet melarkey for a week. It's a twat of a thing, absolutely minging. But done right it burns the aul ale belly and moobs rah off in no time. But it has to be done in an exact order to work proper. Well, yesterday was the treat day at the arse end of it.

The soup would honestly knock a pig sick, but yesterday was me bannana and milk day... up to eight bannanas and as much of that no fat, piss water milk as you want. So, I walked up the shop to get the gear in, even done that power walking melarkey dead sly up the jigger where no one can take the piss. Obviously, I had other things in me head, but I bought me nannas and milk and spent the day on them.

She was a bit shocked to say the least, because for the first day in a week I wasn't moaning for once about it. I even told her it was sound. I'd only had 3 bannanas in milk and drank the rest of the 4 pints of milk. But I was telling her the truth... I wasn't even hungry, I'd enjoyed the bannanas, and even the milk wasn't as bad as I thought it'd be...
Shithot Sherlock goes the bin and...
"No wonder, yer daft twat."

I'd only bought some dead creamie full fat milk melarkey and fucked up the whole week of torture for me and her of me eating that shite. I wouldn't mind half the reason I was eating the shite was so I could get me best gear on when we went to a Euro and met Ray. So, yes. I'd boot his arse right now if I could. He left us far too early. He deserves a welly for that. And many a person's world will be worse for not having Ray in it. But he'd be laughing his bollacks off at that and calling me all the daft bastards under the sun.

And yes. I know we all grieve in our own way, the way we do. But let's not forget the man's wit and sense of fun. As he reminded me himself on many occasion, when I was raging and kicking off. A great, clever, funny and genuine lad, sorely missed. And I hope I'm wrong about all that melarkey because I owe him a good boot up the arse and if I ever do see him... he's getting it.

[Red_Isle_Chap]

Thanks Roy, great post from Fats that.

RIP Ray, really miss reading his posts still.

[royhendo]

From Chopper (AKA Benson and Hedges). Blink and you'll have missed it.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=284692.msg9677415#msg9677415

---

I had a pet Lima once that was called 'last minute amazing goal line save' I fed it and I watered it and I loved it, and it loved me.

On the night of Istanbul, I set it free as an act of human kindness towards the animal kingdom, that lima, that very same lima, my little last minute amazing goal line save managed to get onto the last flight out of JLA and stowed it's little self away in the colostomy bag of an Exeter red's handy urination attachment and made its way to Istanbul. Were as look would have it, the Liverpool kit man was placing all the kits into the kit bag, so he jumps inside the kit bag and once inside he lay quiet, not moving, just blinking his little eyes every now and again and following through due to his in-flight meal. Within a few hours he found himself in the changing rooms of the Liverpool team were, after hiding in the kit bag till half time came out, and when on coming out, found gerrard and carragher crying whilst mummbling cantations from a lucky bag's bazooka joe they'd bopught earlier at the souvenier shop and Benitez curling his hear and humming the Italian job theme tune, in a nappy. And there, in thew shower still thinking he was uin Aldi was Jerzy dudek stacking the soap in the showers,(old habits die hard) he then, yes my little last minute amazing goal line save, he, he gave an impassioned speech to all the team about the will to win, do it for the fans and then looked Dudek right in the eye and you know what he said?...he said Jerzy, son, promise me son not to do the things I've done, walk away from trouble if you can. Jerzy looked at him, winked and muttered the immortal words 'I am job' shook my little last minutes amazing goal line saves hand, picked up his lucky potato and ran onto that pitch knowing he was going to do something for my little last minute goal line save.

My pet Lima made that save.

[exiledintheUSA]

Just in-case this gets lost in the thread -

From Dr.
I'll be honest, for the last week or so I've been thinking about how I would react when these papers were released. I've almost been psyching myself up for it, because I had to actually entertain the idea that the findings would point to Suarez 100% using racist language, along with video evidence, witness statements, and all manner of hard evidence and proof to back up their verdict. I've had to entertain that idea knowing that I'd backed him to the hilt, and I've had to consider what my view would be if indeed it turned out that he had racially abused Evra and had every intention of doing so. It wasn't exactly easy to have to admit that you would need to turn your back on someone should they give you no choice, especially having been so unwavering in your support of them up until this moment.

Now it's almost something of a disappointment, and I know that sounds stupid because I obviously didn't wish for Luis Suarez to be 100% guilty of this, it's just that I did actually expect to have the proof in front of me and to have to make up my mind one way or another. Instead I'm met with this fucking nonsense. A 115 page document detailing how the FA have cherry picked which parts they'd like to believe and actually formed their judgement on probability alone. Not evidence, not proof, not corroboration - the three things you'd actually need in a court of law - but just solely on probability and who they'd like to believe is telling a version of the truth.

At the same time they've openly admitted to discrimination. They've chosen to ignore Luis Suarez's use of the word "negro" and subsequently an entire culture's use and definition of the word, because in good old England it can mean, can mean, something different. Nevermind that the conversation was instigated by Patrice Evra IN SPANISH, and that the entire conversation took place IN SPANISH, and that the context of the use of that word should therefore be considered as it is meant IN SPANISH, or that Patrice Evra was the one who started the argument with a slur on Suarez's family (later the FA decided that it didn't have to mean "your sister's c*nt", it could mean anything really) and then referred to his race as a reason for not wanting to be touched by him. As long as the FA have got their man then I'm guessing none of this matters.

Now, once again, we have to hear from the experts on the matter. The Daily Mail, Sky, the red tops, the ex-players (especially the black ex-players, they're the most important for some reason), the pundits, the journos, and everyone else underlining the juicy parts from the findings and reporting it to the unknowing like these are the only facts, all while a man once again has his life turned upside down because of probability, while he has his reputation tarnished on the words of another alone.

I wanted to be clear by now, and I really entertained the idea that I might just be wrong about Luis Suarez's side of things, and that I'd have to concede that he might just be as terrible as they all made out, and that the club might have embarrassed itself, and that we now all look very silly indeed. But none of that's happened. What HAS happened is that I have even less faith in this country and the sport's governing body than I had a week ago, and that's fucking saying something. I can't quite believe what I've read today, I really can't.

[hassinator]

Elitist.




thing is mate, I'd agree with you but then we take the time to pan for gold, whereas many of our posters are the MacDonald generation... want it shiny, instant and now. So I'd rather point out there is better stuff around than Lucas: he's a wank threads.

respect due to you