Author Topic: Bundesliga Thread  (Read 1070453 times)

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13920 on: June 18, 2020, 03:27:39 pm »
Sky Germany reporting Bayern have extended Coutinho's loan until end of CL season
https://sport.sky.de/fussball/artikel/fc-bayern-philippe-coutinho-in-champions-league-spielberechtigt/12009594/34171

Offline afc tukrish

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13921 on: June 18, 2020, 04:24:29 pm »
been rumours of Jesse Marsch as well.


 

This entire thread will crash and burn if that transpires... ;)

And Marsch would be a risky but interesting appointment, has the modern ideas and personality you referenced above...
Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...

Offline Dim Glas

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13922 on: June 18, 2020, 04:30:37 pm »
This entire thread will crash and burn if that transpires... ;)

And Marsch would be a risky but interesting appointment, has the modern ideas and personality you referenced above...

the personality thing is definately interesting, as it’s an obsession with Dortmund - maybe a bit of an unhealthy one! And it’s a big part of why a lot of fans just can’t let Klopp go, and it’s a problem for all new coaches - that they can’t match up to.  And that is one of the reasons why Marsch is interesting an option, as he seems to have that about him, a bold personality and he seems a strong character.

I think Dortmund is similar to Liverpool in that the fans want that strong bond, and give a lot of value to a coach that understands the culture of the area and ‘gets’ the people.

Offline kloppagetime

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13923 on: June 18, 2020, 04:56:25 pm »
I think Nagglesmen is a very good coach but I feel like he's underachieved in the league with Liepzig this season. Some of the draws they have had at home especially yesterday have been absolutely shocking.

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13924 on: June 18, 2020, 05:01:29 pm »
I think Nagglesmen is a very good coach but I feel like he's underachieved in the league with Liepzig this season. Some of the draws they have had at home especially yesterday have been absolutely shocking.

yeah I think he has too, lots of missed opportunities this season, they will likely end up on the same points total as last season. But because they did so much better in Europe in comparison to last season, it’s probably seen as a fair exchange!

But of course, losing one of his top players in werner, it’ll be intersting to see how they strengthen in this climate and if they can push on and improve in the league, it’ll be tough.

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13925 on: June 18, 2020, 05:09:46 pm »

But of course, losing one of his top players in werner, it’ll be intersting to see how they strengthen in this climate and if they can push on and improve in the league, it’ll be tough.

Schick seems obvious. He looked great in Sampdoria. He's a reclamation project now, although I'd be surprised if he fits well with Poulsen. Oh and they'll probably sign someone from Salzburg

Offline kloppagetime

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13926 on: June 18, 2020, 05:13:55 pm »
Oh and they'll probably sign someone from Salzburg
Patson Daka that guy is an absolute baller and has done a great job filling the Haaland void for Salzburg.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 05:16:26 pm by kloppagetime »

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13927 on: June 18, 2020, 11:02:35 pm »
Bayern's dominance has really raised the bar in terms of points needed.  I feel like before the BVB and Bayern teams of the past decade, somewhere around 70 points should get you a title challenge or even win it occasionally.  BVB's 76 last season would've been good enough to win the league on many occasions.  Bayern, though, at their peak, are pushing 80 and higher.  Bayern's 78 points last season was the lowest of their league winning totals in their most recent run (they're at 76 now with 2 matches left).  But until they started this winning streak, they never had a season topping 78 points since the league went to 3 points a win.  Their 9 league titles from 1995 to 2010, they averaged 73 points in those wins.  In their 7 league titles from 2013 to 2019, they averaged more than 84 points.  Extrapolating points per game to 38 games, their pre-2010 titles averaged 81 points.  Their post-2013 titles averaged 94 points.  Last year's "paltry" 78 points is still 87 in a 38-game season.

The standard has just gotten really high, and while Dortmund and others had chances, beating even 78 points is difficult as I believe Klopp's 2012 Dortmund with 81 points had been the record!  And yet since then, that's at the lower end of Bayern's totals.

I do agree that BVB could do better given their talent and their much higher profile now, but Bayern's consistency in reaching the heights along with their quality and depth make it really hard to compete against.

Tuchel's a good coach and still quite young, but it's clear he's difficult to get along with for some players and some executives.  It's always going to be become an issue if trust starts breaking down.  The other coaches since then haven't hit even his heights (Tuchel got to 78 points in 2015-16), though Favre was close last year.

Maybe some of it is a mentality issue.  They had a 12-match stretch in the middle of the season where they scored 40!!! goals but conceded 20 goals, 7 wins, 2 draws (Paderborn 3-3, Leipzig 3-3), and 3 defeats (Bayern 4-0, Hoffenheim 2-1, Leverkusen 4-3).  They had a stretch of 3 league matches in a row scoring 5 in that 12-game run.  But only ended up with 23 points in those 12 matches, which is below 2 points per game, despite averaging 3+ goals a match.  They're not as prolific overall as Bayern, but they score enough in their good seasons to be competitive, but it's not quite enough to win.  They've already scored 80+ goals this season in 32 matches but can only hit 72 points max.  In general, the Bundesliga seems to be higher scoring at the top than the 2000s for example, but scoring 80+ goals and barely cracking 70 points is an anomaly compared to history (80+ goals and 70+ points could be memorable champions if this were the 2000s), but it's nowhere near enough this season.  Again, Bayern upping their game.  They're just a bit better, and it's hard to get to that extra level.

Imagine if there was a PL team averaging 94 points a season for 7 years.  You'd have to be among the greatest teams ever to finish ahead of them.  Despite BVB being really good, they're just not quite there.  One can argue, given the investment, development, and profile, they should be there, but it's a hard task.  BVB should be hitting 80+ points to challenge Bayern, but the rest of the league is fairly strong.  Bayern have been able to get into that extra gear to get past their tough tests, but BVB come up just short.  Their head-to-head meetings are a problem too, as Bayern have dominated those recently.

Defensive consistency should help.  They scored 9 in two matches against Paderborn but got only 4 points.  6 in two matches against Union Berlin but only 3 points.  They have to find it in them to win 1-0, 2-1, etc and not just score 5+ when they're in the mood but concede a bunch of crucial goals when they're off their game.
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Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13928 on: June 18, 2020, 11:10:07 pm »
Bayern's dominance has really raised the bar in terms of points needed.  I feel like before the BVB and Bayern teams of the past decade, somewhere around 70 points should get you a title challenge or even win it occasionally.  BVB's 76 last season would've been good enough to win the league on many occasions.  Bayern, though, at their peak, are pushing 80 and higher.  Bayern's 78 points last season was the lowest of their league winning totals in their most recent run (they're at 76 now with 2 matches left).  But until they started this winning streak, they never had a season topping 78 points since the league went to 3 points a win.  Their 9 league titles from 1995 to 2010, they averaged 73 points in those wins.  In their 7 league titles from 2013 to 2019, they averaged more than 84 points.  Extrapolating points per game to 38 games, their pre-2010 titles averaged 81 points.  Their post-2013 titles averaged 94 points.  Last year's "paltry" 78 points is still 87 in a 38-game season.

The standard has just gotten really high, and while Dortmund and others had chances, beating even 78 points is difficult as I believe Klopp's 2012 Dortmund with 81 points had been the record!  And yet since then, that's at the lower end of Bayern's totals.

I do agree that BVB could do better given their talent and their much higher profile now, but Bayern's consistency in reaching the heights along with their quality and depth make it really hard to compete against.

Tuchel's a good coach and still quite young, but it's clear he's difficult to get along with for some players and some executives.  It's always going to be become an issue if trust starts breaking down.  The other coaches since then haven't hit even his heights (Tuchel got to 78 points in 2015-16), though Favre was close last year.

Maybe some of it is a mentality issue.  They had a 12-match stretch in the middle of the season where they scored 40!!! goals but conceded 20 goals, 7 wins, 2 draws (Paderborn 3-3, Leipzig 3-3), and 3 defeats (Bayern 4-0, Hoffenheim 2-1, Leverkusen 4-3).  They had a stretch of 3 league matches in a row scoring 5 in that 12-game run.  But only ended up with 23 points in those 12 matches, which is below 2 points per game, despite averaging 3+ goals a match.  They're not as prolific overall as Bayern, but they score enough in their good seasons to be competitive, but it's not quite enough to win.  They've already scored 80+ goals this season in 32 matches but can only hit 72 points max.  In general, the Bundesliga seems to be higher scoring at the top than the 2000s for example, but scoring 80+ goals and barely cracking 70 points is an anomaly compared to history (80+ goals and 70+ points could be memorable champions if this were the 2000s), but it's nowhere near enough this season.  Again, Bayern upping their game.  They're just a bit better, and it's hard to get to that extra level.

Imagine if there was a PL team averaging 94 points a season for 7 years.  You'd have to be among the greatest teams ever to finish ahead of them.  Despite BVB being really good, they're just not quite there.  One can argue, given the investment, development, and profile, they should be there, but it's a hard task.  BVB should be hitting 80+ points to challenge Bayern, but the rest of the league is fairly strong.  Bayern have been able to get into that extra gear to get past their tough tests, but BVB come up just short.  Their head-to-head meetings are a problem too, as Bayern have dominated those recently.

Defensive consistency should help.  They scored 9 in two matches against Paderborn but got only 4 points.  6 in two matches against Union Berlin but only 3 points.  They have to find it in them to win 1-0, 2-1, etc and not just score 5+ when they're in the mood but concede a bunch of crucial goals when they're off their game.

I don't think anybody would reasonably argue that BVB should consistently be better than Bayern.  What you seem to be saying in all of this is it's incredibly hard to beat Bayern, BVB have done reasonably well and yet should do what in going forward?  They probably only have another 1-2 year window before both Sancho and Haaland are gone and this starts all over again. 

I see a lot of other posters are saying Watzke has said that he cannot see being able to hire a Klopp again where they aren't established big names but without some outside of the box thinking what is going to change?  More defensive consistency isn't going to guarantee anything changes as they also have games were they are remarkably toothless as well.  They're going to need to hope that Bayern under performs their average as you are pointing out as otherwise the odds are they'll be in the same place as before.  Why not roll the dice on a Klopp type then when you really have nothing to lose and it's what the fans are crying out for?  Seems odd to me.

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13929 on: June 18, 2020, 11:13:59 pm »
I think what Dortmund need now is a ready made, world class coaching staff. They're still going for coaches that don't belong in that company or they think might reach that level one day. They are past the point of needing to do that now.

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13930 on: June 19, 2020, 12:32:23 am »
I don't think anybody would reasonably argue that BVB should consistently be better than Bayern.  What you seem to be saying in all of this is it's incredibly hard to beat Bayern, BVB have done reasonably well and yet should do what in going forward?  They probably only have another 1-2 year window before both Sancho and Haaland are gone and this starts all over again. 

I see a lot of other posters are saying Watzke has said that he cannot see being able to hire a Klopp again where they aren't established big names but without some outside of the box thinking what is going to change?  More defensive consistency isn't going to guarantee anything changes as they also have games were they are remarkably toothless as well.  They're going to need to hope that Bayern under performs their average as you are pointing out as otherwise the odds are they'll be in the same place as before.  Why not roll the dice on a Klopp type then when you really have nothing to lose and it's what the fans are crying out for?  Seems odd to me.

I think what Dortmund need now is a ready made, world class coaching staff. They're still going for coaches that don't belong in that company or they think might reach that level one day. They are past the point of needing to do that now.

Very differing opinions.  ;D

I think this is the crux of the issue right?  To figure out what type of coach they need, they need to think about who they want to be as a club.

DN and others can speak to it much better than I can, but BVB can be very hierarchical and complex as a club, right?  They're not as drama-filled or Hollywood-y as Bayern, but they've had a lot of characters over the years.  The problem is:  you need a coach that's really good but also willing to work within constraints and with egos.  Klopp is a rarity in the footballing word.  Whether as a coach leaving Mainz or walking into meetings with FSG, he's willing to work with others, build strong relationships, and influence that way.  He's not demanding complete control or demanding changes immediately after moderate success and then falling out with everyone.  On transfers, he's one of the few modern managers that's built such a good relationship with the clubs he's been at.  Liverpool is a great example:
-He's willing to wait for players he wants (VVD being a prime example).  He'll spurn alternatives, and when things go south (like after our 4-1 defeat at Wembley), he doesn't throw people under the bus.  Think about how managers (even less experienced ones) might behave in that scenario.  You'd have the manager leaking to the board that they screwed it all up and then the sporting director/executives leaking that the manager didn't take alternatives.  Klopp doesn't do that.  He works on solutions and is willing to wait.
-He's also willing to change his mind.  We've read that Mane, Salah, etc might not have been his first choices.  Cool.  He can be convinced.  He's not pulling nonsense like "if you sign player x, I want player y" or anything like that.
-Bottom line:  even as a manager with his pedigree, he's willing to work with everyone and build strong relationships.

This just isn't easy to find.  You had a young up and coming manager in Tuchel that people thought could be that next Klopp (in so many ways), but he's not easy to work with.  Would Marsch, Rose, or the others?  Who knows?  And even if they're willing to put up with low control immediately, they may want to try to play the power game when their reputation increases.  This is especially the case with the subtext of Bayern's dominance hanging over their heads.

If you go for a ready-made top class coach but have a structure where you don't necessarily want this manager to have all the control, it's a problem already.  Few of them will work in those conditions, especially if the goal is to catch Bayern.

So the ball is in BVB's court on how much control they want to give a coach and then figure out what type of coach they want.
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Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13931 on: June 19, 2020, 02:27:04 pm »
Hadn't realized Lewis Holtby now plays for Blackburn. What a fall considering the hype around him

Offline kloppagetime

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13932 on: June 20, 2020, 01:48:42 am »
Hadn't realized Lewis Holtby now plays for Blackburn. What a fall considering the hype around him
I thought him and Draxler were both gonna be absolutely world class when they were breaking out around the same time at Schalke, both defeintly haven't delivered on the hype they had.

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13933 on: June 20, 2020, 02:41:08 pm »
Gladbach take the lead against Paderborn; Augsburg beating Düsseldorf too

Offline potatomato33

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13934 on: June 20, 2020, 02:56:14 pm »
Gulacsi's been keeping Leipzig in the game against Dortmund. This should be much better then the Brighton-Arsenal affair.

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13935 on: June 20, 2020, 02:57:31 pm »
Huuuuuuuuge goal for Mainz  8) Quaison bundles a shot over the line.

Werder Bremen’s issues get worse and worse.

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13936 on: June 20, 2020, 02:58:47 pm »
Some very interesting results so far in the Bundesliga. Could officially be the end of Werder's run in the Bundesliga

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13937 on: June 20, 2020, 03:00:47 pm »
2-0 Mainz  8) Great goal from Boetius.

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13938 on: June 20, 2020, 03:02:45 pm »
Totally lucky bounce off Reyna's foot for Haaland to put away, very fortunate for Dortmund... ;)
Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13939 on: June 20, 2020, 03:06:44 pm »
Mainz playing really well, almost 3-0, but Pavlenka waith a great double save.

Already been 8 shots on target in this game, 6 for Mainz, 2 for Bremen.

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13940 on: June 20, 2020, 03:51:25 pm »
Some life for Bremen as the pull one back, nice finish from Osako.

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13941 on: June 20, 2020, 03:57:05 pm »
Hertha still beating Leverkusen and now Paderborn have gone down to ten men against Gladbach.

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13942 on: June 20, 2020, 03:58:26 pm »
Hertha still beating Leverkusen and now Paderborn have gone down to ten men against Gladbach.

wow, this could be massive for Gladbach. Still lots of time left of course though!

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13943 on: June 20, 2020, 04:00:02 pm »
Also Schalke are getting hammered. 0-4 at home to Wolfsburg

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13944 on: June 20, 2020, 04:01:17 pm »
Come on Gladbach and Hertha.  ;D
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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13945 on: June 20, 2020, 04:01:53 pm »
Mainz have had a few chances to kill this game off, if Bremen get something out of it, they can thank their goalie Jiri Pavlenka, he’s made some very good stops.

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13946 on: June 20, 2020, 04:02:10 pm »
Leverkusen not beating Schalke was a shocker of a result for Leverkusen and if results stay the same it will be the result that most likely will cost them Champions League football.

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13947 on: June 20, 2020, 04:04:49 pm »
Leverkusen not beating Schalke was a shocker of a result for Leverkusen and if results stay the same it will be the result that most likely will cost them Champions League football.

Yep. I still think Havertz will stay next season, but they need to hope they beat Mainz next week and Hertha show up against Gladbach.

Offline kloppagetime

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13948 on: June 20, 2020, 04:09:34 pm »
Yep. I still think Havertz will stay next season, but they need to hope they beat Mainz next week and Hertha show up against Gladbach.
Be interesting to see what happens to Bosz as well as not qualifying for the Champions League would be regarded as a failure for Leverkusen, as when you compare their squad with Gladbach Leverkusen have the much superior squad but when it comes to the managers of both teams Rose is better than Bosz all day long. Gladbach are defeintly going places under Rose and with Champions League most likely next season they are only gonna get better under him.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 04:14:08 pm by kloppagetime »

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13949 on: June 20, 2020, 04:12:05 pm »
Mainz have had a few chances to kill this game off, if Bremen get something out of it, they can thank their goalie Jiri Pavlenka, he’s made some very good stops.

Still 2-1 for Mainz?
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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13950 on: June 20, 2020, 04:15:12 pm »
Yep. I still think Havertz will stay next season, but they need to hope they beat Mainz next week and Hertha show up against Gladbach.

Leverkusen did say that they wo’nt stand in his way though, but of course - only IF the right offer comes in, and right now you’d have to think that can only come from maybe 2 teams - Chelsea and Man Utd. So I guess we’ll see! Hopefully he’d stay another year, but he seems keen to leave, missing CL wont help Leverkusen.

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13951 on: June 20, 2020, 04:15:47 pm »
Still 2-1 for Mainz?

3-1 now, just scored  8)

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13952 on: June 20, 2020, 04:27:14 pm »
And it finishes 3-1, could have been a few more too, Mainz created so many chances.

So Mainz are now officially safe to fight another season  8) 8) In fact, they are up to 13th in the table for now  :o

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13953 on: June 20, 2020, 04:28:28 pm »
3-1 now, just scored  8)

Great news. 😀
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Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13954 on: June 20, 2020, 04:30:08 pm »
Did Gladbach and Hertha hold on.
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Offline Dim Glas

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13955 on: June 20, 2020, 04:30:46 pm »
Did Gladbach and Hertha hold on.

yep,  Gladbach won 3-1, Hertha won 2-0.

So it’s in Gladbachs own hands now, they are 2 points clear of Leverkusen.

Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13956 on: June 20, 2020, 04:33:09 pm »
yep,  Gladbach won 3-1, Hertha won 2-0.

So it’s in Gladbachs own hands now, they are 2 points clear of Leverkusen.

Fingers crossed then. At least everything is still interesting for the last week. Well done Mainz though. 😀
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Offline Dim Glas

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13957 on: June 20, 2020, 04:36:16 pm »
Fingers crossed then. At least everything is still interesting for the last week. Well done Mainz though. 😀

going to be a nervy one for Bremen and Düsseldorf next week too with relegation, it’s in Düsseldorf’s hands though. They are away to Union. Bremen at home to FC Köln have to win and hope Union do them a favour, best either can do is the playoff spot, but at least there is a slight hope still for Bremen.

Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13958 on: June 20, 2020, 04:45:41 pm »
going to be a nervy one for Bremen and Düsseldorf next week too with relegation, it’s in Düsseldorf’s hands though. They are away to Union. Bremen at home to FC Köln have to win and hope Union do them a favour, best either can do is the playoff spot, but at least there is a slight hope still for Bremen.

A lot of finely balanced games up ahead and I actually think not having a crowd there will affect me far more than it has so far. You will miss the emotional impact on the back of it, part of the highlight of a last weekend of the season is watching the reactions of all the fans. It's going to be really strange to have none of that.  :(
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Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Bundesliga Thread
« Reply #13959 on: June 20, 2020, 04:49:28 pm »
Also the last EL spot will come down to the wire. Wolfsburg and Hoffenheim are level on points