Topic: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!

[Yorkykopite]

True, they were one of the last absolute monarchies in Europe, and when they got rid of the monarchy they replaced it with Lenin and Co.

Not quite. The real revolution of February was the one that deposed the Tsar, confiscated the lands of the noblemen, established a constituent assembly and democratically-elected workers' and soldiers' soviets, granted independence to Georgia, and held the first democratic elections. This revolutionary government was overthrown in the October coup d'etat by Lenin and the Bolsheviks. Lenin suppressed the soviets, closed down the parliament, took away everyone's vote, rendered all other political parties illegal, and began the murder of his socialist opponents. This autocracy expanded and became imperialist and finally threw up the Tsar of all Tsars in Stalin.

So, briefly, before Lenin decided he wanted to be the new Tsar, there was the basis of democratic government in Russia.

There was of course another brief period of democratic possibility after the fall of the CPSU in the early 90s. Before Putin and the gangster capitalists got cracking.

[west_london_red]

I was trying to summarise 400 odd years into a sentence so missed out a few of the nuanced periods of Russian History, there was also the creation of the Duma after the 1905 Revolution, and before that Alexander II made some tentative reforms to move away from previous absolutism if I remember correctly (well until Lenin’s brother and the People’s Will done him in).

When looking at the history of Russia over the last 200 odd years, it’s actually quite impressive they have managed to even get as far as they have as a country when you consider the leaders they have had. The Tsars were at best incompetent, Stalin only second to probably Hitler in mass murder, Putin perhaps the biggest thief in history.

[[new username under construction]]

I was trying to summarise 400 odd years into a sentence so missed out a few of the nuanced periods of Russian History, there was also the creation of the Duma after the 1905 Revolution, and before that Alexander II made some tentative reforms to move away from previous absolutism if I remember correctly (well until Lenin’s brother and the People’s Will done him in).

When looking at the history of Russia over the last 200 odd years, it’s actually quite impressive they have managed to even get as far as they have as a country when you consider the leaders they have had. The Tsars were at best incompetent, Stalin only second to probably Hitler in mass murder, Putin perhaps the biggest thief in history.

You'd think at some point the population would wake up

[RedSince86]

During Lockdown#1 i listened to this audiobook on this website on my Tablet, flew through it in a just over a week.

It's 19 hours of lectures in 36 parts on the history of Russia by Professor Mark D Steinberg, he's also done a couple more with the same format on the history of The Romanovs and and the fall of Soviet Communism.

https://goldenaudiobooks.com/the-great-courses-a-history-of-russia/

[Red Beret]

You'd think at some point the population would wake up

Our lot voted for Brexit and Boris mate.

[Yorkykopite]

Our lot voted for Brexit and Boris mate.

Of course it's hardly the same. As you said yourself, they "voted."

[Red Beret]

Of course it's hardly the same. As you said yourself, they "voted."

The point I was drawing a comparison to was you would think a population would, at some point, wake up.  The British have even less inclination to rebel against the toffs in charge then the average Russian.

In Russia, people are used to strong-arm leaders; over here you just need to have bumbled your way through fucking Oxford or Eton.

[Yorkykopite]

The point I was drawing a comparison to was you would think a population would, at some point, wake up.  The British have even less inclination to rebel against the toffs in charge then the average Russian.

In Russia, people are used to strong-arm leaders; over here you just need to have bumbled your way through fucking Oxford or Eton.

Because the "toffs in charge" are not remotely like the Russian ruling class. And because the British people have won for themselves political, civil, social and economic rights that the Russian masses can only dream of.  There is simply no comparison between the two 'responses' to state power. Anyone who wishes to make one - even by throwing 'Eton' into the mix - is on extremely rocky ground.

If Keir Starmer had been poisoned by the State and threatened with Siberia (like Navalny) and if his followers were being imprisoned and murdered by unbadged police thugs and if - after these provocations - the British people stuck by Johnson and all his purloined wealth, then we might be able to start comparing the two situations. 

[Red Beret]

Because the "toffs in charge" are not remotely like the Russian ruling class. And because the British people have won for themselves political, civil, social and economic rights that the Russian masses can only dream of.  There is simply no comparison between the two 'responses' to state power. Anyone who wishes to make one - even by throwing 'Eton' into the mix - is on extremely rocky ground.

If Keir Starmer had been poisoned by the State and threatened with Siberia (like Navalny) and if his followers were being imprisoned and murdered by unbadged police thugs and if - after these provocations - the British people stuck by Johnson and all his purloined wealth, then we might be able to start comparing the two situations.

I really think you are taking my comment way too seriously.

Nobody is making a like for like comparison. I am simply pointing out that us Brits, for all our supposed advantages over the Russian people, still manage to frequently go against their own self interest. At least the Russians have a legitimate reason for not waking up.

You're wasting a lot of energy arguing against a throwaway comment that wasn't even aimed at you, mate. Ease up.

[Yorkykopite]

I really think you are taking my comment way too seriously.

Nobody is making a like for like comparison. I am simply pointing out that us Brits, for all our supposed advantages over the Russian people, still manage to frequently go against their own self interest. At least the Russians have a legitimate reason for not waking up.

You're wasting a lot of energy arguing against a throwaway comment that wasn't even aimed at you, mate. Ease up.

It's no sweat, honest. Just a bit of debate. But if you don't enjoy it I won't pursue.

[Red Beret]

It's no sweat, honest. Just a bit of debate. But if you don't enjoy it I won't pursue.

[mainstream_shambles]

There was of course another brief period of democratic possibility after the fall of the CPSU in the early 90s. Before Putin and the gangster capitalists got cracking.

You missed out the important section in between where the democratic reformers like Yeltsin and Gorbachev basically imported "Liberalism", "Capitalism" and "Democracy" on a society that did not have the support structures for it and took a hammer blow to everything they had built over 50 years leading to the economy imploding and the country collapsing leading to the rise of the Oligarchs who gobbled up state wealth. Not to mention Yeltsin bombing his own parliament with tanks.

Whilst Putin is probably corrupt (as is every politician in a democracy as well) he brought stability to a country on the verge of anhilating itself into oblivion brought an end to the gangster rule of the mob. People who remember that era will always back Putin.

This guy Nalvany or whatever is on record calling Muslims cockroaches and is a "Nationalist" as well who is pro-gun :

https://www.ft.com/content/c3adf28c-07d0-11ea-a984-fbbacad9e7dd

This is a great reformer? Has the West learned nothing from the failed Arab spring? It is madness how long this hubris will continue to go on far. Let Russia be Russia, leave them alone, stop encroaching on their "near-abroad" and they will leave the West alone. Simple!

Stalin only second to probably Hitler in mass murder, Putin perhaps the biggest thief in history.

"Probably" is not good enough when discussing serious issues like this. Churchill was "probably" responsible for one of the biggest genocides in history [Bengal famine] worse than Pol Pot.

I will not defend Stalin but if you want to point out all the flaws of Russian civilization then the elephant in the room remains : The reform of Western Europe was fueled with mercantlism, resource extraction from the rest of the world, racial supremacy and dummy capitalism with countries forced open as false markets. [This continues to this day with France controlling the CFA franc in a futile attempt to re-create a French empire whilst pointing the finger at China].

Russia pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps and China is following. Concepts of Marxist-Lenninism is making a comeback under Xi and America is imploding. May we live in interesting times.

[Yorkykopite]

You missed out the important section in between where the democratic reformers like Yeltsin and Gorbachev basically imported "Liberalism", "Capitalism" and "Democracy" on a society that did not have the support structures for it and took a hammer blow to everything they had built over 50 years .......

 

Yes, the Russian economy was going great guns before Gorbachev took the reins.

[mainstream_shambles]

Yes, the Russian economy was going great guns before Gorbachev took the reins.

Depends how you look at it I suppose, it sure as hell was doing a lot better than what came after the "glasnost" reforms where vultures tore the country apart, a decline in GDP for more than a decade, a spike in death and poverty rates which finally turned around only after Putin came into office

Are we really going to ignore the fact that the nation which was the first amongst humanity to walk among the stars created an industrial base from scratch in under thirty years after being absolutely shattered during WW2 for doing the heavy lifting to save the world?

[So… Howard Philips]

Depends how you look at it I suppose, it sure as hell was doing a lot better than what came after the "glasnost" reforms where vultures tore the country apart, a decline in GDP for more than a decade, a spike in death and poverty rates which finally turned around only after Putin came into office

Are we really going to ignore the fact that the nation which was the first amongst humanity to walk among the stars created an industrial base from scratch in under thirty years after being absolutely shattered during WW2 for doing the heavy lifting to save the world?

So who do you think we need to sign at centre back then?

[lobsterboy]

Because the "toffs in charge" are not remotely like the Russian ruling class. And because the British people have won for themselves political, civil, social and economic rights that the Russian masses can only dream of.  There is simply no comparison between the two 'responses' to state power. Anyone who wishes to make one - even by throwing 'Eton' into the mix - is on extremely rocky ground.

If Keir Starmer had been poisoned by the State and threatened with Siberia (like Navalny) and if his followers were being imprisoned and murdered by unbadged police thugs and if - after these provocations - the British people stuck by Johnson and all his purloined wealth, then we might be able to start comparing the two situations. 

There are millions of english gammons who would happily stick by Johnson if he did all that.

[Yorkykopite]

So who do you think we need to sign at centre back then?

Trotsky! I mean Kamenev. No, no, Bukharin. Errr...ok, you got me. I don't like football.

[So… Howard Philips]

See Navalny is calling for sanctions against Abramovic and Usmanov.

That would be fun.

[Yorkykopite]

See Navalny is calling for sanctions against Abramovic and Usmanov.

That would be fun.

Not fair on little Tommy Tuchel if that one sticks.

[Bullan]

See Navalny is calling for sanctions against Abramovic and Usmanov.

That would be fun.

Is that not the only real tool left to isolate Putin?
Freeze the assets of his enablers and sanction them to death seems to be the only thing that can erode some of his support.

[Red-Soldier]

‘The perfect target’: Russia cultivated Trump as asset for 40 years – ex-KGB spy

The KGB ‘played the game as if they were immensely impressed by his personality’, Yuri Shvets, a key source for a new book, tells the Guardian
David Smith in Washington

Donald Trump was cultivated as a Russian asset over 40 years and proved so willing to parrot anti-western propaganda that there were celebrations in Moscow, a former KGB spy has told the Guardian.

Yuri Shvets, posted to Washington by the Soviet Union in the 1980s, compares the former US president to “the Cambridge five”, the British spy ring that passed secrets to Moscow during the second world war and early cold war.

Now 67, Shvets is a key source for American Kompromat, a new book by journalist Craig Unger, whose previous works include House of Trump, House of Putin. The book also explores the former president’s relationship with the disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein.

“This is an example where people were recruited when they were just students and then they rose to important positions; something like that was happening with Trump,” Shvets said by phone on Monday from his home in Virginia.

Shvets, a KGB major, had a cover job as a correspondent in Washington for the Russian news agency Tass during the 1980s. He moved to the US permanently in 1993 and gained American citizenship. He works as a corporate security investigator and was a partner of Alexander Litvinenko, who was assassinated in London in 2006.

Unger describes how Trump first appeared on the Russians’ radar in 1977 when he married his first wife, Ivana Zelnickova, a Czech model. Trump became the target of a spying operation overseen by Czechoslovakia’s intelligence service in cooperation with the KGB.

Three years later Trump opened his first big property development, the Grand Hyatt New York hotel near Grand Central station. Trump bought 200 television sets for the hotel from Semyon Kislin, a Soviet émigré who co-owned Joy-Lud electronics on Fifth Avenue.

According to Shvets, Joy-Lud was controlled by the KGB and Kislin worked as a so-called “spotter agent” who identified Trump, a young businessman on the rise, as a potential asset. Kislin denies that he had a relationship with the KGB.

Then, in 1987, Trump and Ivana visited Moscow and St Petersburg for the first time. Shvets said he was fed by KGB talking points and flattered by KGB operatives who floated the idea that he should go into the politics.

The ex-major recalled: “For the KGB, it was a charm offensive. They had collected a lot of information on his personality so they knew who he was personally. The feeling was that he was extremely vulnerable intellectually, and psychologically, and he was prone to flattery.

“This is what they exploited. They played the game as if they were immensely impressed by his personality and believed this is the guy who should be the president of the United States one day: it is people like him who could change the world. They fed him these so-called active measures soundbites and it happened. So it was a big achievement for the KGB active measures at the time.”

Soon after he returned to the US, Trump began exploring a run for the Republican nomination for president and even held a campaign rally in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. On 1 September, he took out a full-page advert in the New York Times, Washington Post and Boston Globe headlined: “There’s nothing wrong with America’s Foreign Defense Policy that a little backbone can’t cure.”

The ad offered some highly unorthodox opinions in Ronald Reagan’s cold war America, accusing ally Japan of exploiting the US and expressing scepticism about US participation in Nato. It took the form of an open letter to the American people “on why America should stop paying to defend countries that can afford to defend themselves”.

The bizarre intervention was cause for astonishment and jubilation in Russia. A few days later Shvets, who had returned home by now, was at the headquarters of the KGB’s first chief directorate in Yasenevo when he received a cable celebrating the ad as a successful “active measure” executed by a new KGB asset.

“It was unprecedented. I am pretty well familiar with KGB active measures starting in the early 70s and 80s, and then afterwards with Russia active measures, and I haven’t heard anything like that or anything similar – until Trump became the president of this country – because it was just silly. It was hard to believe that somebody would publish it under his name and that it will impress real serious people in the west but it did and, finally, this guy became the president.”

Trump’s election win in 2016 was again welcomed by Moscow. Special counsel Robert Mueller did not establish a conspiracy between members of the Trump campaign and the Russians. But the Moscow Project, an initiative of the Center for American Progress Action Fund, found the Trump campaign and transition team had at least 272 known contacts and at least 38 known meetings with Russia-linked operatives.

Shvets, who has carried out his own investigation, said: “For me, the Mueller report was a big disappointment because people expected that it will be a thorough investigation of all ties between Trump and Moscow, when in fact what we got was an investigation of just crime-related issues. There were no counterintelligence aspects of the relationship between Trump and Moscow.”

He added: “This is what basically we decided to correct. So I did my investigation and then got together with Craig. So we believe that his book will pick up where Mueller left off.”

Unger, the author of seven books and a former contributing editor for Vanity Fair magazine, said of Trump: “He was an asset. It was not this grand, ingenious plan that we’re going to develop this guy and 40 years later he’ll be president. At the time it started, which was around 1980, the Russians were trying to recruit like crazy and going after dozens and dozens of people.”

“Trump was the perfect target in a lot of ways: his vanity, narcissism made him a natural target to recruit. He was cultivated over a 40-year period, right up through his election.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/29/trump-russia-asset-claims-former-kgb-spy-new-book

[So… Howard Philips]

Not fair on little Tommy Tuchel if that one sticks.

Where's your sympathy for Carlo Fantastico and the dreams of the Bitterdrome by the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey then?

[west_london_red]

See Navalny is calling for sanctions against Abramovic and Usmanov.

That would be fun.

As with much of organised crime the guy at the top is insulated so you have to start with the support structures and people they use to protect themselves.

[So… Howard Philips]

As with much of organised crime the guy at the top is insulated so you have to start with the support structures and people they use to protect themselves.

The problem is that Putin's underbosses in the UK have done a good job of insinuating themselves into our society and, unsurprisingly, are large donors to the Tories.

[west_london_red]

The problem is that Putin's underbosses in the UK have done a good job of insinuating themselves into our society and, unsurprisingly, are large donors to the Tories.

Well, I was quite pleasantly surprised when the revoked Abramovich’s visa so you never know.

[Yorkykopite]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/31/russian-protests-continue-for-second-weekend-in-support-of-jailed-kremlin-critic-alexei-navalny

The protests are growing!

That coward Putin will be literally shitting his pants. We took great joy from seeing Trump humiliated. But can you imagine the ecstasy of democratically-minded Russians if and when Putin is thrown out and stripped of everything he's looted off the Russian people?

[Alan_X]

Is that not the only real tool left to isolate Putin?
Freeze the assets of his enablers and sanction them to death seems to be the only thing that can erode some of his support.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitsky_Act

[KMKYWAP]

Whilst Putin is probably corrupt (as is every politician in a democracy as well)

"Probably" is not good enough when discussing serious issues like this.

A take of two probably's. The first doing a spectacular amount of whataboutery

[Yorkykopite]

“His only method is killing people. However much he pretends to be a great geopolitician, he’ll go into history as a poisoner of underpants.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/02/russian-opposition-leader-alexei-navalny-jailed

The Russian State, directed by Putin, tries to murder the leader of the opposition by injecting him with poison. It fails. So he's sent to prison instead.

The calamity of Putinism in action folks. The Russian regime stinks.

[Yorkykopite]

Some of the scenes of police brutality in the last 24 hours beggar belief.

[Red Beret]

“His only method is killing people. However much he pretends to be a great geopolitician, he’ll go into history as a poisoner of underpants.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/02/russian-opposition-leader-alexei-navalny-jailed

The Russian State, directed by Putin, tries to murder the leader of the opposition by injecting him with poison. It fails. So he's sent to prison instead.

The calamity of Putinism in action folks. The Russian regime stinks.

You really think Putin is in realistic danger? 

I mean, yeah, the ridiculous, obviously rigged elections, and how every single opposition leader mysteriously ends up dead or in prison for various, vague crimes might have started to wear a bit thin on the people; but let's face it, he'll only be cast down by those who support him and who fear for their own positions. 

Makes you wonder about how the security services are such automatons who seem to act without every questioning why.

[Yorkykopite]

You really think Putin is in realistic danger? 

I mean, yeah, the ridiculous, obviously rigged elections, and how every single opposition leader mysteriously ends up dead or in prison for various, vague crimes might have started to wear a bit thin on the people; but let's face it, he'll only be cast down by those who support him and who fear for their own positions. 

Makes you wonder about how the security services are such automatons who seem to act without every questioning why.

I don't know enough to say. I don't suppose the Russian working class will rebel against him since they seem to be permanently crushed, sunk in classic Russian apathy, and easy meat for nationalist appeals. But the western-looking liberal middle class is not a tiny thing in Russia anymore. And it's always had a high regard for itself, hating to be humiliated by state power. Navalny has been very clever in producing that video which is all about humiliation. It's also the kids and the students of the middle class who are on the streets getting battered right now.

One thing we know: it's  harder for Putin to hide corruption (and police fascism) that it used to be. Russia Today obviously doesn't cover what's happening in the streets right now (except to say it's all being orchestrated by the USA), and it has never had anything to say about the lack of democracy in Russia (shame on you Corbyn). But social media is a wholly different thing.

There seem to be a lot of young people out on the streets recording to State terror right now, just as there were in Belarus. I am blown over in admiration for their courage.

[mainstream_shambles]

A take of two probably's. The first doing a spectacular amount of whataboutery

I don't think so, the poster made the insinuation that the reason Russia is corrupt is Putin and a transition to democracy is guaranteed with to come with transparency etc. This is hubris and not in line with history as the rise of Putin is responsible for LESS CORRUPTION  relative to the first decade of the post USSR era.

But the western-looking liberal middle class is not a tiny thing in Russia anymore.

Even if it reaches 50% it won't matter. Why? Because the vast majority of the people will always look at the "Western looking liberal middle class" as sell-outs and traitors in civilizational states like Russia, Iran, India, China, Indonesia etc.

The only places where it is debatable if it has worked is Turkey and Japan but then Attaturk was a general/statesmen who'se credibility was boosted by the fact that he led the Turkish in defeating the West initially and even then it is not clear yet which direction Turkey will take.

Japan only because they were bombed into submission but even there the re-making of Japan as an Asian civilization is underway and accelerating.

The world doesn't want to be Western or an honorary member of the West and that's that. If Democracy etc are universal values then they are not Western value and people striving for them is not because they look "West" but as history unfolds it is clear that the "End of History" thesis was rubbish and Democracy is neither the end goal for many civilizations and neither is it the ideal state. There are multiple paths to development, prosperity and a way for their citizens to feel "respected"

[Yorkykopite]

I don't think so.......

A little tip my Fascist-loving Russian friend.

Don't post on RAWK when Liverpool FC are playing (that's the club you're meant to support). It never looks good.

[Max_powers]

A little tip my Fascist-loving Russian friend.

Don't post on RAWK when Liverpool FC are playing (that's the club you're meant to support). It never looks good.

I think I know who this is. He is not a bot btw. He is a real poster with a real hardon for authoritarian regimes. Or he may be paid a few pennies to make posts online.

I don't think he supports Liverpool either, just Putin, CCP, and other wanna be authoritarians regimes like Modi, Erdogan etc.

I reckon he has been banned from rawk more than anyone. The instant giveaway is he/she makes an account from different location every time, never posts a single thing about LFC and jumps straight into defense of these type of regimes.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

A little tip my Fascist-loving Russian friend.

Don't post on RAWK when Liverpool FC are playing (that's the club you're meant to support). It never looks good.

To be fair, I think a lot of people were looking at doing something else than watch that

[west_london_red]

Or he may just be like me and refuses to pay for BT sport!

[Yorkykopite]

I think I know who this is. He is not a bot btw. He is a real poster with a real hardon for authoritarian regimes. Or he may be paid a few pennies to make posts online.

If he's not being paid for those opinions then he's in a very worrying place. I mean why would you go onto a website like ours, which is known for its left-of-centre opinions, and do nothing except defend authoritarian regimes? What's the bloody point - other than to remind everyone how happy we are not live in shit-hole like Putin's Russia?

[west_london_red]

If he's not being paid for those opinions then he's in a very worrying place. I mean why would you go onto a website like ours, which is known for its left-of-centre opinions, and do nothing except defend authoritarian regimes? What's the bloody point - other than to remind everyone how happy we are not live in shit-hole like Putin's Russia?

There’s an awful lot of Nationalists out there, and an awful lot of governments and leaders who actively encourage and engender those views. Some of them are bound to end up on here just out of sheer probability as much as anything else.

[Dr. Beaker]

Bad time of year to be out on the streets in Moscow. Learned nothing from Maidan Square. A water cannon must be like a WMD this time of year. Are Russians as hard as Ukrainians I wonder, and have they got any decent centre-backs!