Author Topic: The Level 3 Thread  (Read 1190145 times)

Offline scatman

  • Slutty enough to make Jordan blush - and hard enough to piss in the wrong bush! Missing a shift key.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,087
  • This is my world, you just WORK here :D
    • directions to football stadiums
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13640 on: February 15, 2010, 12:03:14 pm »
go for it son. Gotta say was utterly disappointed with your team on saturday though, what a bunch of c*nts.
Would sacrifice Fordy in a sacred Mayan ritual to have him as the next Liverpool manager
Football stadiums in England

Offline No666

  • Married to Macca.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,767
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13641 on: February 15, 2010, 12:28:17 pm »
Aye exactly, and it would seem the staff are actually having a serious think about the future of the site (not just OTSD) so we should maybe be thinking about helping them out rather than hiding away in here.

I'd rather have RAWK to escape to than this thread, I've got to say, and I agree with everything the site stands for. I don't think there's any reason we couldn't have the debate we have here some place else.

Point taken. I wonder if this thread in its recent incarnation has indirectly been part of the reason the round-table discussions petered out.

Anyway, it's been a pleasure meeting you guys by the virtual water cooler...

Offline armchair-fan

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,252
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13642 on: February 15, 2010, 12:37:40 pm »
Did I get to the party just as all the cool guys were leaving?  Dammit.  Anyway, I'm excited as I'm making a rare foray to Anfield on Thursday (it's once in a blue moon that tickets go on general sale & I'm available to go).  I'll be the person jumping around as though a 1st leg tie against Unirea is the biggest game of the season!  I hope Aquilani is available, I think he's the sort of player that'll be easier to appreciate 'in the flesh'.  Mind you, the last of our games I saw from the stands was Fulham away in '08 and Pennant and Voronin looked excellent that day, so what do I know?

Offline Roger Federer

  • Christ imagine naming yourself after Roger Federer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,424
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13643 on: February 15, 2010, 12:49:44 pm »
There are so many posts in each thread on the main board, any intresting discussion gets swamped by WUM, insults, bickering, or just by the page turning every other minute. It's almost impossible to follow a good debate there, but someone usually posts the best stuff in here, making this thread the best one. Even if it's not the same as in the beginning, I think you should keep it open.

Offline scatman

  • Slutty enough to make Jordan blush - and hard enough to piss in the wrong bush! Missing a shift key.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,087
  • This is my world, you just WORK here :D
    • directions to football stadiums
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13644 on: February 15, 2010, 01:45:40 pm »
There are so many posts in each thread on the main board, any intresting discussion gets swamped by WUM, insults, bickering, or just by the page turning every other minute. It's almost impossible to follow a good debate there, but someone usually posts the best stuff in here, making this thread the best one. Even if it's not the same as in the beginning, I think you should keep it open.

touche, one of the threads which has had viewpoints on the team/manager from all standings. There are criticisms of posts everywhere even on this thread, however what deviates from the rest of the site is the construct.
Would sacrifice Fordy in a sacred Mayan ritual to have him as the next Liverpool manager
Football stadiums in England

Offline Joe_Singh

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,135
  • My idea is always to win trophies, not just games
    • Joe Singh
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13645 on: February 15, 2010, 02:51:19 pm »
I already venture around RAWK, but this is where I am happiest.

Roy you or someone will have to keep updating the Quality Posts you may have missed thread more often if you close this down.
What I love about this, and several other of Kenny's press conferences, is that he manages to say something to the effect of  'Shut the fuck up, you fucking helmets and don't fuck with me or my football club or I'll make you eat your own balls', without actually using th

Offline rednich85

  • Gargantuan Wanker. Intimately linked to Keys and Gray.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,631
  • Stay Black. That's the most important thing.
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13646 on: February 15, 2010, 03:02:12 pm »
Do it Roy, close this mother down.

I'm proud that you are sacrificing your pride and joy for the benefit of RAWK!

We should definately get the 'round table discussion' going after each match now.
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons."

@rednich85

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

  • Almost as nice as Hellmans and cheaper too! Feedback tourist #57. President of ZATAA.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,467
  • In an aeroplane over RAWK
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13647 on: February 15, 2010, 03:05:00 pm »
Drum rolls.

Trumpeter plays the last post as a single solemn rifle round shatters the silence.

Tweeting shit about LFC @kevhowson Tweeting shit about music @GigMonkey2
Bill Shankly - 'The socialism I believe in is not really politics; it is humanity, a way of living and sharing the rewards'

Offline koolkamal

  • There's a kind of hush
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,440
  • Our dreams are what make us who we are.
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13648 on: November 3, 2010, 12:21:20 pm »
I've been on RAWK for 7 years and only just found this topic.

Wish I had found this years ago... no wonder some of you sound so sane (you had this to come to).

Really sensible and great discussions and a lot of insight on here.

Thanks. :)
"All our dreams can come true, if we have the courage to pursue them". Walt Disney

Offline conman

  • Ohh aaaah just a little bit, Ooh aahh, a little bit more. Aerial stalker perv. Not cool enough to get the lolz.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 27,498
    • Cocopoppyhead
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13649 on: November 3, 2010, 12:30:40 pm »
i guess level 3 is out of sight at the moment.

Offline Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion. Phil's Official Biographer, dontcherknow...it's all true. Honestly.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,484
  • The first five yards........
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13650 on: November 3, 2010, 12:33:51 pm »
Where the hell's Juan Loco gone? He lowered RAWK's collective IQ by half on the day he packed away his pencils.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline JP-65

  • FA/UEFA/FIFA are not fit for purpose
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,774
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13651 on: November 3, 2010, 12:47:29 pm »
Should be renamed to the "Ground Zero" thread ;D

Offline Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion. Phil's Official Biographer, dontcherknow...it's all true. Honestly.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,484
  • The first five yards........
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13652 on: November 3, 2010, 01:17:40 pm »
Should be renamed to the "Ground Zero" thread ;D

Yeah but then we'd get El C wanting to build a Mosque on it.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline JP-65

  • FA/UEFA/FIFA are not fit for purpose
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,774
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13653 on: November 3, 2010, 01:53:21 pm »
Yeah but then we'd get El C wanting to build a Mosque on it.

Kwality ;D

Offline scatman

  • Slutty enough to make Jordan blush - and hard enough to piss in the wrong bush! Missing a shift key.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,087
  • This is my world, you just WORK here :D
    • directions to football stadiums
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13654 on: November 3, 2010, 02:24:59 pm »
how did this get reopened? I thought it was locked, who petitioned for it to be reopened?
Would sacrifice Fordy in a sacred Mayan ritual to have him as the next Liverpool manager
Football stadiums in England

Offline lionel_messias

  • likes pulling cocker spaniels out of Kim Kardassian's ass
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,590
  • 'You can throw your plan in the purple bin'
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13655 on: November 3, 2010, 04:41:20 pm »
This was one of my favourite threads, though I never had much to contribute myself.

Do we take it that the signing of Damien Commolli and a long term strategy for football @LFC has re-opened it?

Great news, as you were lads, now about Moneyball ...
Follow me on twatter: @JDMessias

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,329
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13656 on: November 3, 2010, 05:21:33 pm »
sacrilege - sequels are never as good as the original - Hope Mr Hendo et al agreed to this
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13657 on: November 3, 2010, 05:24:06 pm »
It's open for reference only dudes - there are a lot of posts worth quoting - opening the thread makes it possible to quote. :)

Fresh shoots grow from its rotting carcass. :)

Offline koolkamal

  • There's a kind of hush
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,440
  • Our dreams are what make us who we are.
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13658 on: November 3, 2010, 08:02:07 pm »
I came across it by accident and sort of bumped it up. :)
"All our dreams can come true, if we have the courage to pursue them". Walt Disney

Offline impz

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 802
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13659 on: November 3, 2010, 09:10:41 pm »
Best thread ever.
from the land of ice and fire.

Ohh and the occasional bank collapse and finacial crisis.

Offline Ycuzz

  • of the wonderful things he does! I've soiled myself..
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,089
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13660 on: November 3, 2010, 10:05:50 pm »
Hey!

Just noticed this one back up. Excellent.

@Yvanicuzz

Offline thechulloran

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,607
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13661 on: November 18, 2010, 11:51:42 am »
as mentioned in the earlier pages of this thread

the pressing of level 3...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/nC9ia5NSkJ4?fs=1&amp;amp;hl=en_US" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/nC9ia5NSkJ4?fs=1&amp;amp;hl=en_US</a>

"Blackstone was targeted by Internet terrorists" - Tom Hicks

Offline Joe_Singh

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,135
  • My idea is always to win trophies, not just games
    • Joe Singh
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13662 on: November 18, 2010, 12:00:00 pm »
You couldn't contribute to this thread in the current climate anyhow.

We're playing level 0 football at the moment
What I love about this, and several other of Kenny's press conferences, is that he manages to say something to the effect of  'Shut the fuck up, you fucking helmets and don't fuck with me or my football club or I'll make you eat your own balls', without actually using th

Offline nocturnalvin

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,627
  • Justice For The 96.
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13663 on: November 18, 2010, 12:34:49 pm »
its reopened. anti-climax though.

Offline Halibut-Thumb

  • I apologise for my shit user name and piss-poor spelling. You know, my friends and family tell me they are surprised I couldn't think of anything better. Ah well, such is life.
  • No new LFC topics
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 760
  • Lesbian ham?
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13664 on: November 20, 2010, 03:32:37 am »
The problem with us, is even though the majority of the team has been drilled thoroughly in pressing football, we don't have anywhere enough possession ourselves to give the players a break so that they are able to maintain it. Pressing football is such hard work, a team can only keep it up for short periods at a time broken up by lengthy periods of control and possession. Barcalona get those "breaks", we don't.
In Soviet Russia, fish fingers you.

Offline Des Equilibrante

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,332
  • Ex-pat Pie-Eater
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13665 on: December 19, 2010, 09:49:08 am »
Not sure where to put this, but I figure this is as good as any. It's from a City forum, I think Blue Moon, but not sure.

-----

In reference to: http://www.manchestercity.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=184393

Originally Posted by nick.nikky
I'm not the guilty party here though it's almost identical, but you're actually spot on by proxy - Mancini incorporates the same exact defensive system we had under Sven (pressure and support) and even started out using 4-4-1-1 before scrapping it and venturing into another one of Sven's prefered system; the under England much scolded 4-3-1-2.


The one thing I didn't like about the article was for him to call it "catenaccio". In broad terms it was somewhat correct, but this is a mix of Rinus Michels, Sven's, Bob Houghton's/Roy Hodgson's (from their days at swedish 1st division), Antonio Herrara and Nils Liedholm's school of football which Sven used to garner success around Europe with an inferior Swedish team and later used to polish Benfica and Lazio (and more) into wonderfully organized sides. It transfered in it's initial form to Italian football via Nils Liedholm's proteges (Ancelotti, Capello, Trapattoni, Scala, Maldini, Baresi, Conti) and it got solidified by Sven's Houghton/Hodgson/Rinus Michels/Swedish mix.

That's why all of these guys - Sven, Mancini, Hodgson, Capello, Trapattoni, Ancelotti and Scala... all have a very similar brand of football. They're all intertwined and know each other on a personal level. In short:

*The Swedish/Italian mob - Capello was assistant coach under Liedholm and manager under him when he was chief advisor for Roma. Leidholm coached Milan. Trapattoni played with and trained under Liedholm. Both of em used Liedholm youth graduates Maldini and Baresi (Liedholm let them have their debutes at 16 and 17 respectively). Bruno Conti was given the nod at 19. Ancelotti at 20. Sven was handed the Roma job under Liedholm. Sven coached Ancelotti. Sven coached Mancini (also assistant coach under Sven). Both Sven and Mancini coached Sampdoria, Lazio and City. Ancelotti currently coaches Chelsea for Sven's pal Abramovich. Capello snagged the England job. Brian Kid worked for Sven, Brian kid works for Mancini... etc...

*The Swedish/Fulham mob - Bob Houghton was assistant to Bobby Robson at Ipswich. They played together at Fulham. Bobby R later managed Fulham. Houghton went to Sweden and Malmö FF where he took them to the European Cup finals. Through Houghton's advice Hodgson got hired by Halmstad where he introduced what he called the "English school of football". Later by Malmö. Hodgson coached Mancini's Inter. Hodgson coached the United Arab Emirates (hehe). Hodgson was on cue for the England job when they decided to go for Sven instead. Hodgson is back at Fulham, where it all started with Robson and Houghton, a job he executes for Fayed, with his new player Geovanni... etc...

So in reality it's not "Italian" football but a mixture of English(zonal defense and training application)/Swedish(team play. Zonal became mixed zonal or pressure and support)/Dutch football(total football)/Italian(catenaccio) - and it's initially mostly Sven's brand of football adopted by the "Gentlemans Club" and perfected through trade. Pure catenaccio is an entirely different thing.

And since Sven was the first to peice them all together, it should if anything, be called Svenaccio or something because what he did was to fuse all of it together into a perfect system as well as introducing it in both Portugal and Italy with great success. There'd been no Mourinho without a Sven... just as there would have been no Sven without a Lidholm or a Hodgson... or a Hodgson without a Houghton... or a Houghton without a Robson.

And there most certainly wouldn't have been a Mancini. Catenacio - it is not.


This also touches on another subject. Somehow all of this manages to pass over the pundits heads, but there are coaches that truly are worth more than others on so many levels. And Hodgson is one of those guys. He's connected with The Gentlemens Club. Just like Mancini.

Hughes, the arrogant ****, never got this. Cook, I'm sure, is still pretty clueless. The former City board certanly didn't know **** all. But ADUG is on cue... Hodgson's United Arab Emirates pals... ******* ADUG... thank you Shinawatra...

Managers like Sven are in this sense is more than just managers. They are indeed a ******* Dons. When Sven calls his sheik friends (the real ones) or picks up the phone and gives his opinion on his former player Ancelotti, Kaka deal killer and Ronaldinho hirerer Ancelotti, to his buddy Abramovich - **** will happen.

You simply do not **** with these guys. They all know each other. And they rule football behind the svenery.


It is impossible to describe how much the appointment of Mancini (or Sven at his time) really means and meant. Hughes was a ******* parenthesis in a job Sven got started. The money he spent, the gloating little prick, came about through Sven's connections. And now it's sorted. On and upwards.

Let's hope the board isn't as lax this time around...

-----

If it's the wrong place or entirely irrelevant, ignore it.

On some level, I don't think we are ever going to be a Barcelona 'level 3' side. I don't see us becoming another Arsenal. I guess the best way I see it is we become an amped up Fulham. The ideal we seem to be going towards does seem to be more to this ideology, the whole pressurising teams The unnerving prospect is, Ancelotti, Mancini - it's imbued in them. We can all see what Mourinho did at Chelsea and now Inter, what Sven did at City, and Lazio and England to an extent... and what Hodgson is doing with Fulham, and we all know Ancelotti's Milan and Mancini's Inter whilst not King's of Europe certainly have reigned Italy. We even know Bobbby Robson's Barca and Newcastle sides. It's that kind of side I see us as, not the Cruijff, Rijkaard, Guardiola, Wengerball sides..
Hmm. Thought this was worth another read given events since February...
Some say he haunts Rawk threads.

All we know is, he's called Des Equilibrante

Offline scatman

  • Slutty enough to make Jordan blush - and hard enough to piss in the wrong bush! Missing a shift key.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,087
  • This is my world, you just WORK here :D
    • directions to football stadiums
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13666 on: December 20, 2010, 12:50:46 pm »
Aye I remember posting that post of yours a few months back when Roy first arrived. You can see where the turgid football comes from
Would sacrifice Fordy in a sacred Mayan ritual to have him as the next Liverpool manager
Football stadiums in England

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,444
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13667 on: December 20, 2010, 09:47:56 pm »
"Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and of making yourself available to receive a pass. It is terribly simple." - Bill Shankly

In one sentence Shankly laid down the blueprint for footballing success. 
There is no mention of accurate shots, of a religious fanaticism to a formation, an adapting to the opposition, or even of a defence.
Yet the more you think about it the more it makes sense.  If your whole team can pass the ball how important is a shape?  If the opposition cannot get the ball how important is your defence? If you never lose the ball then why bother changing?

In 2007 I was at Anfield to see a Barcelona side that was rigid, hard and wholly lacklustre. A far cry from the side that visited in 2001 and passed us off the park.  I was then fortunate to visit Barcelona one week before going to the Champions League final.  The white hankies were out when I visited the Nou Camp, Riijkaard's side had been humiliated in a 1-1 draw by Real Betis, who would go on to finish 16th in the league.

What I saw was a side that contained Xavi, Iniesta, Deco, Messi, Ronaldinho, and Eto'o look once again more concerned with where they were on the pitch, with adapting to the opposition, and with defence first.  A feast of attacking and passing delights was rotten to the core with a lack of self belief and an approach to the game that would make the great Shankly laugh in derision...I know I did, we were about to face Milan the next week and I'd be there.

As a lover of Spanish football I watched with interest at Barca's next move. Rijkaard's formula that had brought a much sought double to the club was tearing at the seams, it was being matched and bettered by Rafa Benitez, it was being found out by the opposition and within 3 seasons Barca had gone from 1st, to 2nd, to 3rd - they had gone from winning the European Cup to being beaten in 2 consecutive seasons by English teams bettering the style Rijkaard was trying to rediscover. In 2008 Barca took a gamble on a reserve team manager.

What Pep Guardiola brought with him is what is required at our club - revolution.  Out went the troublemaking talismans of Ronaldinho, and Deco in came unknown Buquets from Barca B and the Manchester United "reject" Gerard Pique, who was deemed a lesser talent than the mighty Jonny Evans. 

These players, along with Xavi, Iniesta, and Messi had been raised on the simple football that Shankly preached, and Cruyff embodied.  A style that at the time only appeared to exist in spirit at Barcelona and not in action.  The modern game had moved on, athletes dominated and simply trying to pass the ball into the net was derided and seen as an over-complication of a simple game of defend then attack.  Total football was dead coaches like Benitez and Mourinho had the modern game mastered and coaches who attempted to persist such as Arsene Wenger were seen as Jurassic idealists destined to play pretty football without reward.

The story of Guardiola is one intertwined with Cruyff:

"In his first week at the club, Cruyff turned up unannounced at the 'Mini' stadium, a venue just down the road from Camp Nou used by the youth and B teams. Just before half-time he wandered into the dug-out and asked Charly Rexach, the youth team manager at the time, the name of the young skinny lad playing on the right side of midfield. 'Guardiola – good lad' came the reply. Cruyff ignored the comment and told Rexach to move him into the middle for the second half, to play as pivote, a difficult position to adapt to and one not used by many teams in Spain at the time. 'Pep' Guardiola adjusted immediately, as Cruyff had suspected he would, and when he moved up into the first-team in 1990 he became the true fulcrum of the Dream Team."

I sat down to watch Guardiola's first game in charge, and was ready for the revolution.  The child of Cruyff, a man and a team that had been raised to play Shankly's way.  Simple, elegant, and deadly.  I expected the revolution to start with the storming of the Bastille, a 5-0 victory.
Barcelona were beaten.

Beaten by Numancia, a  newly promoted team destined to finish 19th.  I was shocked, this wasn't on the cards.  The dream team mark 2 had tried to play a new brand of football but were humiliated.  A blip?

With the same style of football on show Guardiola's Barca had a home game next, a tricky tie against Racing Santander, perpetual plucky underdogs surely in front of the faithful Pep's side would show what was to come. 
Again the side stuttered and failed to produce the result expected.  This time they were spared defeat by a 71st minute Messi penalty.

2 games into the new season and any manager would be forgiven for changing, for considering the old style dead and put his experiment down to failure in order to keep his job. At this point it's important to view another quote, this time from a player versed in Guardiola's philosophy:

Our secret is that we play the same way against each opponent. - Leo Messi

With that in mind Barca were away to Sporting Gijon, 1 point from 6.  1 goal from 180 minutes, a penalty at that.
What was to unfold was "tiqui-taca" the simple game of pass, control, pass, move.
Barca won 6-1.
They went on to win the next 8 league game in a 9 game streak that saw an aggregate score of Barcelona  35 - Opposition 10
Tiqui-Taca had arrived, Guardiola had weathered the storm, the Bastille was stormed.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago, Barcelona play a football that has been adopted by the national team.  Guardiola has won everything, and did it in his first season.  The footballing world looks on with envy. 
Only one man can challenge this way of football, the man who had knocked Barcelona out of the Champions League only several months before - at their own ground.  With a galaxy of riches at his feet Mourinho had organised Real Madrid into a feared unit - his style of football the antithesis to that of Cruyff, Guardiola, Michels, Sacchi and Shankly. 

Whatever doubts remained were quashed.  An annihilation in which Real Madrid were lucky to touch the ball.

The world had awoken "Best team ever!" were the shouts.
I thought I had seen it all, and then away from home in a local derby I saw this:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/unVOYx-Zcw4?fs=1&amp;amp;hl=en_GB" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/unVOYx-Zcw4?fs=1&amp;amp;hl=en_GB</a>


Soon our club will have a decision to make.
Roy Hodgson's spell at the club will be over.  By this time I am positive we will be faced with a difficult scenario, the Rafa Benitez scenario.
I love Rafa, I know he loves us but for me we have the opportunity to rebuild our club from the ground up - to reinstate Shankly's vision of simple passing football in a pressure free scenario.  I for one would welcome a risky appointment an Owen Coyle, or from what I have heard Villas-Boas or a Klopp, or even a Dalglish would bring.

The state of the premier league is deteriorating and is awaiting the stamp that simple pass and move football can bring.
I will be made up if Rafa comes back but I'm an idealist and if we can bring in a Guardiola type autocrat determined to play the right way then I'll get what I've been waiting for about 20 Christmases for.


Offline bleedsred1978

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,428
  • Get Behind Brendan Rodgers
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13668 on: December 20, 2010, 10:10:10 pm »
Enjoyed that Degs.  :D

I love the vision you promote. My only fear is that we would need at least 5 years , maybe 10 of bringing through youth schooled in the system. I dont want to get into Rafa chat in here as me head hurts from the main board but I do believe he understood this fact and I hope the next man whomever it is will work with the new owners to achieve what we want.
From here on in its all FSG's doing. Good or bad they will stand or fall by the decisions they have made in the summer of 2012. Lets hope they have gotten it right.

Offline scatman

  • Slutty enough to make Jordan blush - and hard enough to piss in the wrong bush! Missing a shift key.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,087
  • This is my world, you just WORK here :D
    • directions to football stadiums
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13669 on: December 20, 2010, 11:45:19 pm »
Absolutely brilliant post Degs, great read, can someone tweet it to our esteemed owner :D
Would sacrifice Fordy in a sacred Mayan ritual to have him as the next Liverpool manager
Football stadiums in England

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13670 on: December 21, 2010, 09:58:55 pm »
Best thing I've read in ages, Degs. I love the Messi quote.

In my most optimistic moments, the current apparent "delay" in the inevitable departure of Hodgson is that Dalglish and Comolli are analysing every young coach possible to find the right one to progress such a vision. I don't care if I've never heard of him. I don't care if his only experience is managing a Division Two reserve side, if he's the right man with the right qualities.
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13671 on: December 21, 2010, 10:07:27 pm »
I love the vision you promote. My only fear is that we would need at least 5 years , maybe 10 of bringing through youth schooled in the system. I dont want to get into Rafa chat in here as me head hurts from the main board but I do believe he understood this fact and I hope the next man whomever it is will work with the new owners to achieve what we want.

I don't think it has to take that long. There are players around with the right qualities - like Cruyff seeing Guardiola in that reserve match, it's just a question of spotting them. If done right, the short term can be 'bridged' with the introduction of some younger (21-26) players - not necessarily expensive 'stars' - funded by a little investment, the sale of many of our 29+ year olds (the squad is top heavy with them, at the moment) and significant reductions in the wages bill. That can provide a breathing space of a few years to bring through youngsters who have the footballing strategy ingrained from a young age, while we have a few promising ones at the club already.

It does need a clear strategic vision, though, and a 'coach' who fits the system, rather than a manager who imposes one. This came up during the ownership discussions too, but it's time the Liverpool manager was recruited more on the basis of his footballing philosophy than on his CV. That philosophy, for our club, should be clear - it's pass and move. Now, who wants to coach it?
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13672 on: December 21, 2010, 10:24:36 pm »
Great stuff again that Degs - I saw Guardiola's 1st ever game at the helm :) (In Dundee.)

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13673 on: December 21, 2010, 11:02:52 pm »
Belter post, Degs, enjoyed that.

Offline socrates the sophist

  • No new LFC topics
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 805
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13674 on: December 25, 2010, 09:26:27 am »
In light of Degs' phenomenal post I thought I share this link with you which describes Guardiola's philosophy through reviewing the season of the 6 trophies.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWoltSgZcqU&feature=channel

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k52oh4HZBTg&feature=channel

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbp1Slr2PLI&feature=channel

One thing that I noticed about us ever since NESV is that there is a clear idea of our recruitment policy,  but there doesn't seem an indication of how we intend to play. So when they mention  their admiration for Wenger they merely admire the fact that brought youngsters up rather than his style of play. And I am wondering whether the lack of a playing philosophy is  something we should be concerned  about now (As fans)? Or is it natural that we haven't identified one yet?

Offline James Mac

  • Sabu Pundit's PR
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,244
  • Return of the Mac
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13675 on: December 26, 2010, 12:42:13 am »
One thing that I noticed about us ever since NESV is that there is a clear idea of our recruitment policy,  but there doesn't seem an indication of how we intend to play. So when they mention  their admiration for Wenger they merely admire the fact that brought youngsters up rather than his style of play. And I am wondering whether the lack of a playing philosophy is  something we should be concerned  about now (As fans)? Or is it natural that we haven't identified one yet?

I guess the key is to wait for the new CEO, and then, following that, the new manager. I'd imagine that those two (although obviously mainly the manager) plus Damien Commoli will start drafting what will become "us", at least for a time. I hope it's a philosophy of simplicity, dynamic tenacity and efficiency. As much as Barcelona's possession based passing game is pretty with its triangles, it all seems a bit pointless. Play the simple game, to paraphrase Shankly. If that means going direct then so be it. I suppose I want us to play like we did at the end of 08/09. A well-oiled machine that cannot be stopped.

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,444
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13676 on: December 26, 2010, 10:46:38 am »
I guess the key is to wait for the new CEO, and then, following that, the new manager. I'd imagine that those two (although obviously mainly the manager) plus Damien Commoli will start drafting what will become "us", at least for a time. I hope it's a philosophy of simplicity, dynamic tenacity and efficiency. As much as Barcelona's possession based passing game is pretty with its triangles, it all seems a bit pointless. Play the simple game, to paraphrase Shankly. If that means going direct then so be it. I suppose I want us to play like we did at the end of 08/09. A well-oiled machine that cannot be stopped.
You're missing the point of the Shankly quote though, playing simple means receiving the ball, controlling it, passing it, and moving into space.

Of course it's "pretty" but it's also massively effective in tiring your opponents and finding space all over the pitch, my auld fella always has a saying when we have the ball and somebody is getting pissed off "As long as we have it they don't".


Offline Not funny reecehenebry

  • Pitbull #2. Fanning the flames of debate since 03/06/10.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,806
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13677 on: December 26, 2010, 10:36:33 pm »
Great post Degs.

It's not a question of how we should play, pass and move has been the framework for our success. It's more a question of how to get to that position.

First off we need a proper youth system that teaches it from the very very start. The system needs to teach and not just nurture certain abilities. We don't need uber athletes or tricky widemen. We need players that understand the game and have those other attributes. Look at Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Sergio. All understand the game. You could play any of them in any position the others play in with little difference. If you have young players with great ability and manage to teach them that, they will be top top players.

Arsenal fail on this very point. They have the ability and the one touch passing, but fail to understand the game as a whole. I never see them press the opposition high and hard. That lack of basic understanding is were they fail. The question has to be is Wenger's approach of buying players at 14/15/16 rather than teaching them from 9/10/11 the root. At 15 only a few players will truly learn this because they have already been successful with what they have already. Barca have a huge area to pick talent from so they can get young players early. Can Arsenal? Does the area which these players come from change the success ratio? For example in Spain football is played by the middle class while in England it's always been the bastion of the working class.
Is it a case of education or lack of. Do we have a less educated player in England?
These are problems we will face also.

Shankly was given 7 years to re mould the team. During that time he didn't play pass and move all the time. He needed to have a functioning team, and when he bought players he needed to look at what the team needed and what the plan needed. It's not easy to find players with ability on the ball that can play anywhere. Like i mentioned above if your youth system is set to it you can produce them, but other than that you need to either buy very talented and expensive proven players or buy young players with good ability and hope that they have it, or can learn it.
Of course the appointing of a DoFS is exciting because he can implement these methods across the whole club. Any manager brought in needs to understand the philosophy. If he can't replacing him won't be the end of the line.

Degs you marked Rafa as being unlike Shankly and the others in your list. I think you are wrong. the man clearly needed to build what i have spoken about and in order to do that he needed to stabilize the first team and start changing the methods back to what were at the club. I do believe he tried that and was stopped, firstly by Parry and later Purslow. See i believe the philosophy of the club was lost during the early 90's. I also believe the people at the club since then have had no understanding of it. That includes the youth staff. The players we have in the team that came through the ranks under Heighway have little or no understanding of it because of this. We claim Gerrard and Carra are Liverpool through and through but they are not. They were never taught the Shankly ideal. That's really not a knock on them, and i am sure in every other way they are, but not the pass and move Liverpool way.

I do believe Fsv have the ideals right, and we will get back our Liverpool. I really think we are closer to it than we think. Fsv setup a DoFS but had to do little else with the youth setup. The systems were already in place.

Why are you looking past this season?

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,444
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13678 on: December 26, 2010, 11:22:26 pm »
Great post Degs.

Thanks, and thanks for the reply I'll go through it now.

Quote
First off we need a proper youth system that teaches it from the very very start. The system needs to teach and not just nurture certain abilities. We don't need uber athletes or tricky widemen. We need players that understand the game and have those other attributes. Look at Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Sergio. All understand the game. You could play any of them in any position the others play in with little difference. If you have young players with great ability and manage to teach them that, they will be top top players.

I'm a football coach for under 8s, been up to Kirkby and Finch Farm and have seen/had my team against the excellent, excellent, youth teams that both Liverpool and Everton have.  The problem though is that the players you mention Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta would have had the odds massively stacked against them if they had been born in Walton and the reason for this is height. 

I see players getting let go at 10 because they are "too small". Making pass and move the philosophy at our club should stretch right down to the 7 year olds we sign.  We are far too concerned with churning out a physical specimen than enshrining a style of football.  If your football gets you into our Academy the thing most likely to get you out of it is your body type. 

We shouldn't have an Academy that looks to output "Premiership-type" players but footballers.  That's been the case at both Liverpool and Everton and you see the players that have come through in the past 2-3 years.
Liverpool's top one has been Kelly (6'3"), Everton's is Rodwell (6'2"), it's no coincidence.


Quote
Arsenal fail on this very point. They have the ability and the one touch passing, but fail to understand the game as a whole. I never see them press the opposition high and hard. That lack of basic understanding is were they fail. The question has to be is Wenger's approach of buying players at 14/15/16 rather than teaching them from 9/10/11 the root. At 15 only a few players will truly learn this because they have already been successful with what they have already. Barca have a huge area to pick talent from so they can get young players early. Can Arsenal? Does the area which these players come from change the success ratio? For example in Spain football is played by the middle class while in England it's always been the bastion of the working class.
Is it a case of education or lack of. Do we have a less educated player in England?
These are problems we will face also.

I'd say it's less to do with direction and more to do with a self-fulfilling mantra of defeatism.
Wenger may be trying to play mind games with others and keep his team out of the spotlight but by doing it he doesn't instil an attitude of win at all costs.

If Ferguson had the Arsenal kids they'd be on for the title. Not to mentions Arsene's reluctance to admit defeat in his search for a keeper.

Quote
Shankly was given 7 years to re mould the team. During that time he didn't play pass and move all the time. He needed to have a functioning team, and when he bought players he needed to look at what the team needed and what the plan needed. It's not easy to find players with ability on the ball that can play anywhere. Like i mentioned above if your youth system is set to it you can produce them, but other than that you need to either buy very talented and expensive proven players or buy young players with good ability and hope that they have it, or can learn it.
Of course the appointing of a DoFS is exciting because he can implement these methods across the whole club. Any manager brought in needs to understand the philosophy. If he can't replacing him won't be the end of the line.

I'd say in Shankly's time it was more difficult.  He took over a struggling 2nd tier side with poor facilities and poor players in an age when the odd punch was part of the game.
As it is now our next manager will inherit a team that contains, arguably, the best goalkeeper, midfielder, and striker in the world, has money to spend, and a fanbase receptive to somebody trying to instil football.

Owen Coyle has shown how quickly you can transform a side's style of play in the modern age and how our league is still receptive to "proper" football, the high flying Burnley and Bolton sides show this.

Quote
Degs you marked Rafa as being unlike Shankly and the others in your list. I think you are wrong. the man clearly needed to build what i have spoken about and in order to do that he needed to stabilize the first team and start changing the methods back to what were at the club. I do believe he tried that and was stopped, firstly by Parry and later Purslow. See i believe the philosophy of the club was lost during the early 90's. I also believe the people at the club since then have had no understanding of it. That includes the youth staff. The players we have in the team that came through the ranks under Heighway have little or no understanding of it because of this. We claim Gerrard and Carra are Liverpool through and through but they are not. They were never taught the Shankly ideal. That's really not a knock on them, and i am sure in every other way they are, but not the pass and move Liverpool way.

I believe Rafa was a builder, Rafa was a fighter, and Rafa knew how to get the people on his side.
Stylistically though Rafa was, and books/friends such as a A Season on the Brink back me up on this, defensive first and foremost.  While Shanks loved his commanding centre halves he knew that first and foremost is victory, not avoiding defeat. If we have the option tomorrow to appoint an attacking, pass and move Guardiola type then let's go for him

Quote
I do believe Fsv have the ideals right, and we will get back our Liverpool. I really think we are closer to it than we think. Fsv setup a DoFS but had to do little else with the youth setup. The systems were already in place.

FSV aren't making rash decisions, and I like that, but so far they've done nothing bar appoint Comoli.
Until they splash some cash, sack Roy, and appoint the right manager we'll have to wait.

There is only 1 appointment at the club that will truly make a difference from now on.  We can have a new director of football, a new head of youth development, a new CEO, but now the old Yanks have gone we CANNOT progress until the man in the dugout changes - the longer he's here the more damage he does.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 11:27:44 pm by Degs »

Offline John C

  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,262
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13679 on: December 27, 2010, 12:50:28 pm »
Brilliant Degs, lovely read mate.