Author Topic: Coates confirmed  (Read 132288 times)

Offline babraham

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1000 on: October 12, 2011, 09:58:53 am »
Don't scare me like that, babra!  I saw his thread on top and thought "Another injury!!"
;D

Pity he didn't get on the pitch. Oh well...
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Offline Camarero25

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1001 on: October 18, 2011, 10:10:51 pm »
Bump.

Looked very promising tonight, couple of mistakes, but that's to be expected.

Offline GEMSTAR58

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1002 on: October 18, 2011, 10:21:07 pm »
Decent performance

Offline Discipline

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1003 on: October 19, 2011, 05:36:27 am »
How well did he do with Agger?
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1004 on: October 19, 2011, 06:06:06 am »
MOTM for me along with Doni
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Offline Carra-ton

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1005 on: October 19, 2011, 11:17:15 am »
How well did he do with Agger?

He made a couple of glaring mistakes. His positional sense went missing at times. But, having said that he is still a baby. The thing that impressed me was, when he was aware of what was happening, he was in control, good tackling, good heading. Cool and composed out of defence. But, it will take years before we can rely on him as the rock at the back.
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Offline Lebron

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1006 on: October 19, 2011, 11:27:50 am »
The thing that impressed me about him was his passing ability, long passing that is.  On the several occasions were he went long with passes he seemed to find his target every time, he never seems to panic either.  All in all a good showing from him in my opinion.

Offline Chirpy Red

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1007 on: October 19, 2011, 11:40:59 am »
Pretty positive performance considering it's his 3rd game for us.

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1008 on: October 19, 2011, 11:41:20 am »
He made a couple of glaring mistakes. His positional sense went missing at times. But, having said that he is still a baby. The thing that impressed me was, when he was aware of what was happening, he was in control, good tackling, good heading. Cool and composed out of defence. But, it will take years before we can rely on him as the rock at the back.

A 'baby'? 'Will take years before we can rely on him'?

He's 20 isn't he? He's played in Uruguay's Copa America winning team and was voted best young player at the tournament. Since he made his debut for Nacional two years ago he was never dropped or rested once. He's played in the Libertadores with great distinction. He's about the age that Hansen, Thompson, and Carragher were when they cemented their first team places at Anfield. He's in the Phil Jones, Smalling generation.

Let's not start this rubbish again about centre-backs having to be in their late 20s before they are worthy of selection.  The longer he goes on without first-team action the ropier he'll be when he eventually gets it.
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1009 on: October 19, 2011, 11:43:10 am »
A 'baby'? 'Will take years before we can rely on him'?

He's 20 isn't he? He's played in Uruguay's Copa America winning team and was voted best young player at the tournament. Since he made his debut for Nacional two years ago he was never dropped or rested once. He's played in the Libertadores with great distinction. He's about the age that Hansen, Thompson, and Carragher were when they cemented their first team places at Anfield. He's in the Phil Jones, Smalling generation.

Let's not start this rubbish again about centre-backs having to be in their late 20s before they are worthy of selection.  The longer he goes on without first-team action the ropier he'll be when he eventually gets it.

well said, if this lad is good enough he will be in our starting 11 come the end of the season/ beginning of next.
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1010 on: October 19, 2011, 11:46:44 am »
He made a couple of glaring mistakes. His positional sense went missing at times. But, having said that he is still a baby. The thing that impressed me was, when he was aware of what was happening, he was in control, good tackling, good heading. Cool and composed out of defence. But, it will take years before we can rely on him as the rock at the back.
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1011 on: October 19, 2011, 11:48:47 am »
He'll be starting by the end of the season, we'll ease Carra out IMO.

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1012 on: October 19, 2011, 11:52:02 am »
A 'baby'? 'Will take years before we can rely on him'?

He's 20 isn't he? He's played in Uruguay's Copa America winning team and was voted best young player at the tournament. Since he made his debut for Nacional two years ago he was never dropped or rested once. He's played in the Libertadores with great distinction. He's about the age that Hansen, Thompson, and Carragher were when they cemented their first team places at Anfield. He's in the Phil Jones, Smalling generation.

Let's not start this rubbish again about centre-backs having to be in their late 20s before they are worthy of selection.  The longer he goes on without first-team action the ropier he'll be when he eventually gets it.

Amen brother!!

Offline RacerX34

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1013 on: October 19, 2011, 12:00:49 pm »
He'll be starting by the end of the season, we'll ease Carra out IMO.

I'd agree with that.
Easing him in while he adjust to the pace of the game and learns the language can only be good for his development.

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1014 on: October 19, 2011, 12:19:43 pm »
I think he needs games. Thing is, his ideal partner is someone like Carragher with pace. Maybe Skrtel rather than an Agger.

The reason I say that (although it is early days) his positioning on the pitch seems to be "high" and he doesn't look like he'll put his body on the line. Who knows. He seems to have vision as a centre-back, its more of a long pass than a carragher hoof, he seems decent with both feet. For a big man, he doesn't have that aerial prowess yet, but I think that would come. Maybe its just the aura. He seems to have a relaxed style of play, he's calm, and he makes things look easy.

I'd like to see him start with Skrtel against Norwich.
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Offline Lucas DuoFlush

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1015 on: October 19, 2011, 12:21:42 pm »
I think he needs games. Thing is, his ideal partner is someone like Carragher with pace. Maybe Skrtel rather than an Agger.

The reason I say that (although it is early days) his positioning on the pitch seems to be "high" and he doesn't look like he'll put his body on the line. Who knows. He seems to have vision as a centre-back, its more of a long pass than a carragher hoof, he seems decent with both feet. For a big man, he doesn't have that aerial prowess yet, but I think that would come. Maybe its just the aura. He seems to have a relaxed style of play, he's calm, and he makes things look easy.

I'd like to see him start with Skrtel against Norwich.

This is pretty much what I was saying in another thread. I think the combination of Agger and Coates is a little too adventurous for the Premier League.
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Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1016 on: October 19, 2011, 12:22:15 pm »
This is pretty much what I was saying in another thread. I think the combination of Agger and Coates is a little too adventurous for the Premier League.

If they can defend whats the problem?
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1017 on: October 19, 2011, 12:26:36 pm »
A 'baby'? 'Will take years before we can rely on him'?

He's 20 isn't he? He's played in Uruguay's Copa America winning team and was voted best young player at the tournament. Since he made his debut for Nacional two years ago he was never dropped or rested once. He's played in the Libertadores with great distinction. He's about the age that Hansen, Thompson, and Carragher were when they cemented their first team places at Anfield. He's in the Phil Jones, Smalling generation.

Let's not start this rubbish again about centre-backs having to be in their late 20s before they are worthy of selection.  The longer he goes on without first-team action the ropier he'll be when he eventually gets it.

ah yorky always a pleasure to read your posts.

This is pretty much what I was saying in another thread. I think the combination of Agger and Coates is a little too adventurous for the Premier League.

its pre-prem but we did very well with hansen and lawrenson as our central defence with gillespie an able replacement for lawro further down the line. 

Offline Carra-ton

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1018 on: October 19, 2011, 01:20:37 pm »
A 'baby'? 'Will take years before we can rely on him'?

He's 20 isn't he? He's played in Uruguay's Copa America winning team and was voted best young player at the tournament. Since he made his debut for Nacional two years ago he was never dropped or rested once. He's played in the Libertadores with great distinction. He's about the age that Hansen, Thompson, and Carragher were when they cemented their first team places at Anfield. He's in the Phil Jones, Smalling generation.

Let's not start this rubbish again about centre-backs having to be in their late 20s before they are worthy of selection.  The longer he goes on without first-team action the ropier he'll be when he eventually gets it.

Well, good to make high claims sitting here. But, what about that offside where he switched off, or where he missed the tackle on their front man as he raced through on goal. He completely let go of his marker on a couple of corners. Easy to say things, but show me a defender who when 20 is commanding the back line for a team with potential title aspirations. Stop speaking like an amateur.
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Offline Lucas DuoFlush

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1019 on: October 19, 2011, 01:26:20 pm »
If they can defend whats the problem?

I've never seen Hansen or Lawrenson play but if its possible obviously its preferable to play two centrebacks with that kind of ability. I just have slight reservations about their eccentricity regarding our shape, defensive lines and cover etc. We'd have to wait and see obviously, but playing a young foreign centreback in such an adventurous centreback pairing might be asking for trouble.
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1020 on: October 19, 2011, 01:27:13 pm »
Well, good to make high claims sitting here. But, what about that offside where he switched off, or where he missed the tackle on their front man as he raced through on goal. He completely let go of his marker on a couple of corners. Easy to say things, but show me a defender who when 20 is commanding the back line for a team with potential title aspirations. Stop speaking like an amateur.

Smalling played 16 games in the PL and 33 in total for United last season ages 20/21.

Evans played 17 league games in 08/09 aged 20. And 18 the following year.

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1021 on: October 19, 2011, 01:28:38 pm »
I've never seen Hansen or Lawrenson play but if its possible obviously its preferable to play two centrebacks with that kind of ability. I just have slight reservations about their eccentricity regarding our shape, defensive lines and cover etc. We'd have to wait and see obviously, but playing a young foreign centreback in such an adventurous centreback pairing might be asking for trouble.

What do you mean by adventurous?  do you just mean decent on the ball?
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Offline Lucas DuoFlush

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1022 on: October 19, 2011, 01:30:08 pm »
Smalling played 16 games in the PL and 33 in total for United last season ages 20/21.

Evans played 17 league games in 08/09 aged 20. And 18 the following year.

His inclusion is needed, but we need to remember he is also adapting to; a) a new life b) climate c) language and d) the Premier League and how it is played. Given these factors, we can expect him to maybe start less games than Smalling or Evans did, can we not?
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Offline Carra-ton

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1023 on: October 19, 2011, 01:31:30 pm »
Smalling played 16 games in the PL and 33 in total for United last season ages 20/21.

Evans played 17 league games in 08/09 aged 20. And 18 the following year.

Players who have grown playing in England, this kid has come here in to a completely different league. Smalling and Jones played plenty of games for smaller clubs in the premier league before being given the chance to play for ManU. He is not ready, yet, and even in the South American championships needed Lugano to steer him all the way. He has attributes, but he needs to develop a lot more before he becomes a starter.
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1024 on: October 19, 2011, 01:31:44 pm »
What do you mean by adventurous?  do you just mean decent on the ball?

Good on the ball, with Aggers consistent trait of making a run through the centre of the park. Given that, who would you prefer to be the last man if he loses the ball, Coates or one of Agger, Skrtel or Carragher? I know who I would.
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1025 on: October 19, 2011, 01:35:28 pm »
ah yorky always a pleasure to read your posts.

its pre-prem but we did very well with hansen and lawrenson as our central defence with gillespie an able replacement for lawro further down the line. 

Hansen and Lawrenson were way better than anything we have seen in the premier league. They were one of a kind, and not even the John Terrys and Rio Ferdinands come close to those two. If we had a Hansen, I would be all for him taking up our CB duties, but we don't have anyone with the skills and potential(which was realized) that Hansen had.
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Offline MolbyLovesGravlax

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1026 on: October 19, 2011, 01:37:01 pm »
Seems everyone is too far to one extreme or the other. He is a fantastic talent, and is big match proven in the Copa and match in match out proven in club football in Uruguay. He is not multiple seasons away from being worthy of a starting position.
But, he is in a new country, in a very different style of league facing very different styles of player. I would like to see him spending this year playing any and all cup games and be in contention for the league and get some starts and lets see where it leads.
I have a feeling he will get a chance late in the season to impress and he could well be replacing Carragher for the start of next season.
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Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1027 on: October 19, 2011, 01:39:21 pm »
Good on the ball, with Aggers consistent trait of making a run through the centre of the park. Given that, who would you prefer to be the last man if he loses the ball, Coates or one of Agger, Skrtel or Carragher? I know who I would.

The best defender, who may or may not be good with ball at their feet.
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1028 on: October 19, 2011, 01:41:50 pm »
Hansen and Lawrenson were way better than anything we have seen in the premier league. They were one of a kind, and not even the John Terrys and Rio Ferdinands come close to those two. If we had a Hansen, I would be all for him taking up our CB duties, but we don't have anyone with the skills and potential(which was realized) that Hansen had.

i love your 'glass half full' sense of optimism after coates second full game for us.

i also look forward to yorky's response.

i'd get your tin hat on if i were you.

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1029 on: October 19, 2011, 01:45:21 pm »
The best defender, who may or may not be good with ball at their feet.

Yeah - I'd say it was pretty hard to argue that Coates is our "best defender" at least for now. All i'm saying is there is an increased risk of defensive frailty by playing two centrebacks who like to make forward runs, which I assume you'd agree with?

Edit; whether the the positives of having that ability in our defenders outweighs the negatives is another matter - for example if we had two Aggers then obviously both would be played, but given Coates age and other factors which will hinder him at the moment its probably best we pair him with a more solid, basic centreback.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 01:47:01 pm by Lucas DuoFlush »
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1030 on: October 19, 2011, 01:48:16 pm »
i love your 'glass half full' sense of optimism after coates second full game for us.

i also look forward to yorky's response.

i'd get your tin hat on if i were you.

I would rather we not lose goals and destroy the young mans confidence than see fans be proved right. Why is it so hard to understand. Lucas took 2-3 years to show his full potential. We are not relegation battlers, we cannot afford to have players learning on the trade in the league unless they are good enough to handle anything that gets thrown at us.
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Offline RedMichelFerri

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1031 on: October 19, 2011, 02:23:16 pm »
I think he will be tested in cup games and as his understanding of new league and his team mates improves, he will slowly introduced to team in PL matches.
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1032 on: October 19, 2011, 02:25:55 pm »
I really hope he doesn't go in the same way Wilson does in that he will never get a game. I think he will start around 10-12 games next season which would be solid progress. Depending on the score at the 60th minute we should always look to bring him on, after all when you are leading and you bring on a defender it can't be the worst thing can it? Even if he does start out rusty in the first few games.

Same goes for Robinson & Flannagan(sp?), obviously not every game otherwise we would be changing our entire back line but a few carling cup games, early fa cup games and 5-6 games in the league? As in not starts but if he plays 450 minutes in the league alone (the amount of minutes if he had started 5 games) as a sub and 1-2 starts then i'll be pretty happy about his progress. 450minutes sounds reasonable to me. 450minutes in the entire season might be more realistic rather then just in the league. I'm quite ambitious when it comes to playing the youth, like to see them get good game time. Anyway enough about them two in a Coates thread!

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1033 on: October 19, 2011, 02:31:21 pm »
He made a couple of glaring mistakes. His positional sense went missing at times. But, having said that he is still a baby. The thing that impressed me was, when he was aware of what was happening, he was in control, good tackling, good heading. Cool and composed out of defence. But, it will take years before we can rely on him as the rock at the back.

You're being extremely harsh there, I can think of two mistakes off the top of my head. That was it. He was calm in possession, his short passing was okay and his long passing rather good imo. Good and hard in the tackle and I think his positioning and reading of the game was excellent to be honest, he'll make mistakes and that's to be expected. I think he was better than Agger on the night to be honest.

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1034 on: October 19, 2011, 02:33:31 pm »
You're being extremely harsh there, I can think of two mistakes off the top of my head. That was it. He was calm in possession, his short passing was okay and his long passing rather good imo. Good and hard in the tackle and I think his positioning and reading of the game was excellent to be honest, he'll make mistakes and that's to be expected. I think he was better than Agger on the night to be honest.

The odd mistakes will be there and will be ironed out as he knows the league and players better. It takes time for understanding with your partner.
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1035 on: October 19, 2011, 02:33:59 pm »
He's replaced Kyrgiakos for this season. Kyrgiakos made 10 starts and 6 sub appearances for us last season. That seems a good starting point to me. If he performs well perhaps we could see more of him.
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1036 on: October 19, 2011, 02:54:19 pm »
He is our fourth choice center back. He knows it. The fact that he is just as good as Soto and has a potential to be 10 times better is amazing. He will make mistakes in a new league. Who doesnt? In a year or year and a half he will be our 3rd choice quarter back, plus with experience, he will be competing with Skrtel and Agger to be in the top 2.

So many people crying out for his game time, chill the fuck out. Injuries happen, lad will get 4 to 5 starts easily this year. Also, I like the suggestion to bring him on at the 60 if we are leading 3-0 or something. Mancini has done that with Savic. I am sure Kenny/Clarke have it in their minds, just a little problem would be we are not leading any games 3-0 at the 60 yet.

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1037 on: October 19, 2011, 02:59:09 pm »
Played ok last night.

KK is doing the right thing in easing him into the English game. His growth will be matched by Carra's gradual decline - when Coates is consistently better than Carra, he'll get the position full time.

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1038 on: October 19, 2011, 03:29:11 pm »
I think we really have to just trust Kenny and his staff to know when and how to start playing Coates.  It is clear he has a high level of ability, and a very high level of potential, but whether he is a regular in our side by the end of this season remains to be seen (and, to no small degree, depends on our injury situation).

To judge from the little we've seen to this point, he seems to have a very aggressive style to his defending.  He makes a lot of interceptions by stepping into passing lanes ahead of the attacking player, and then seems more than decent on the ball once he takes it.  However, this style, if not very carefully played, can lead to huge mistakes that leave us open at the back, and I think the coaching staff will be working on his judgment in this area.  He's a bit like Hyypia in that sense, except that Hyypia was excellent positionally, and Coates still is learning this part of the game.  Again, I'm going only on what we've seen here and this summer in the Copa America, but you watch him and just feel that if he can put it all together, he could be a top player.  He doesn't have a huge amount of pace, but when he's on the ball he seems to always be looking for a red shirt and makes good decisions, and it's great to see that in a central defender.

My only worry is that while he's learning, he'll cost us a game or two with an attempt at an interception that he misses, or a crunching tackle just a fraction too late that gets him sent off, and the fans will react the way they did with Lucas.  That's a risk with any young defender, but particularly with one who plays the way Coates does.
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1039 on: October 19, 2011, 05:06:27 pm »
I would rather we not lose goals and destroy the young mans confidence than see fans be proved right. Why is it so hard to understand. Lucas took 2-3 years to show his full potential. We are not relegation battlers, we cannot afford to have players learning on the trade in the league unless they are good enough to handle anything that gets thrown at us.

what is so hard to understand?

i'd argue that lucas was showing his potential to the more enlightened supporter from the off.

he lit up the reserves when he first joined the club and then had to learn a new position before he got a run in the first team.

you only get better by playing games and you're using the benefit of hindsight to suggest that hansen is a better player.

first up hansen is a contender for our best ever player; second we won't know about coates until he plays a few more games.

he certainly joins us with a much better pedigree than hansen who joined us from partick thistle.

coates is big, has some pace and eye for a pass three things which are missing from carragher.

he doesn't have the same amount of first team experience but really that's all chicken and egg.

i'd certainly like to see him start more starting against norwich.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 05:08:10 pm by hassinator »