Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[Son of Spion]

What I don't get in the image above, why is Lovren doing the robot dance when everyone else is trying to handle the ball?

[dimwit]

Kraftwerk

We are the Robots

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/oA7eOZ3d8ts" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/oA7eOZ3d8ts</a>

[Miltonred]

Having the VAR overrule the Centre Ref is a different law. That's what a number of people are advocating.

Having the power to overrule is definitely a big change that I simply cannot see ever happening, as well as being the wrong thing to do for all sorts of reasons.
Assistant referees often consult with the referee and change the initial view of a referee, so consultation is already a part of officiating. I don't see how VAR is any different in that respect.

I'm also of the view that a referee who has clearly seen an incident and judged it to be, or not to be an infringement, shouldn't necessarily accept the guidance from a VAR, unless that person offers some information he has not seen. A good example would be the TAA handling incident. Atkinson had a clear view, judged it not to be infringement, even though he saw it hit the arm, and waved off claims immediately. If the VAR had said, "hey look it struck his arm, I might have given handball there", I think the onfield referee can still stick to his judgment. The position of the arm being natural or unnatural is not, and cannot be clearly defined, so the onfield referee has to stick to his initial call.

[TepidT2O]

What is hand ball.

Left to me, I would hardly award any.

The CL final?  Not deliberate. 

Hechoz in Cardiff .... not deliberate...

They are hardly ever deliberate, and players are hardly ever using their arms to increase the size to help block the ball.


This idea of ‘natural’ positions? It’s fucking stupid.  You don’t run, or turn, or jump, or header, or shoot, or tackle with your arms by your side.

They move, they balance you, they follow your body. 

The whole thing is fucking nonsense governed by people who seem ignorant of how humans actually move.

[GreatEx]

Having the power to overrule is definitely a big change that I simply cannot see ever happening, as well as being the wrong thing to do for all sorts of reasons.
Assistant referees often consult with the referee and change the initial view of a referee, so consultation is already a part of officiating. I don't see how VAR is any different in that respect.

I'm also of the view that a referee who has clearly seen an incident and judged it to be, or not to be an infringement, shouldn't necessarily accept the guidance from a VAR, unless that person offers some information he has not seen. A good example would be the TAA handling incident. Atkinson had a clear view, judged it not to be infringement, even though he saw it hit the arm, and waved off claims immediately. If the VAR had said, "hey look it struck his arm, I might have given handball there", I think the onfield referee can still stick to his judgment. The position of the arm being natural or unnatural is not, and cannot be clearly defined, so the onfield referee has to stick to his initial call.

You mean Oliver, not Atkinson, right? The only way Atkinson wouldn't have penalised Trent is if he got so excited he swallowed his whistle.

[rob1966]

What is hand ball.

Left to me, I would hardly award any.

The CL final?  Not deliberate. 

Hechoz in Cardiff .... not deliberate...

They are hardly ever deliberate, and players are hardly ever using their arms to increase the size to help block the ball.


This idea of ‘natural’ positions? It’s fucking stupid.  You don’t run, or turn, or jump, or header, or shoot, or tackle with your arms by your side.

They move, they balance you, they follow your body. 

The whole thing is fucking nonsense governed by people who seem ignorant of how humans actually move.

There are a lot more deliberate handballs than you suggest. John Terry was a master of spreading his arms and blocking the ball and it is an art a lot of defenders have learnt

[Barneylfc∗]

What is hand ball.

Left to me, I would hardly award any.

The CL final?  Not deliberate. 

Hechoz in Cardiff .... not deliberate...

They are hardly ever deliberate, and players are hardly ever using their arms to increase the size to help block the ball.


This idea of ‘natural’ positions? It’s fucking stupid.  You don’t run, or turn, or jump, or header, or shoot, or tackle with your arms by your side.

They move, they balance you, they follow your body. 

The whole thing is fucking nonsense governed by people who seem ignorant of how humans actually move.

What is a foul?
How many times in a match do you see a foul given for the slightest contact? A player falling to the ground because their arm got touched? Falling over because they felt the slightest contact on their leg?
In rugby we see 16/17/18 stone men running at full speed and get met side on, face on with another big mother fucker and they still dont go down. I get that they're 2 totally different sports, but if a guy the size of a rugby player cant bring down someone while wrapping their arms around them, then how the hell does touching someone on the arm bring a footballer down?

[Filler.]

Hechoz in Cardiff .... not deliberate...

What!? What is this heresy!? That was one of the finest saves in FA Cup Final history!

[farawayred]

What is a foul?
How many times in a match do you see a foul given for the slightest contact? A player falling to the ground because their arm got touched? Falling over because they felt the slightest contact on their leg?
In rugby we see 16/17/18 stone men running at full speed and get met side on, face on with another big mother fucker and they still dont go down. I get that they're 2 totally different sports, but if a guy the size of a rugby player cant bring down someone while wrapping their arms around them, then how the hell does touching someone on the arm bring a footballer down?

You have clearly neglected to account for wind speed in your analysis.

[rob1966]

What is a foul?
How many times in a match do you see a foul given for the slightest contact? A player falling to the ground because their arm got touched? Falling over because they felt the slightest contact on their leg?
In rugby we see 16/17/18 stone men running at full speed and get met side on, face on with another big mother fucker and they still dont go down. I get that they're 2 totally different sports, but if a guy the size of a rugby player cant bring down someone while wrapping their arms around them, then how the hell does touching someone on the arm bring a footballer down?

Footballers are fannies.

[Alan_X]

What is a foul?
How many times in a match do you see a foul given for the slightest contact? A player falling to the ground because their arm got touched? Falling over because they felt the slightest contact on their leg?
In rugby we see 16/17/18 stone men running at full speed and get met side on, face on with another big mother fucker and they still dont go down. I get that they're 2 totally different sports, but if a guy the size of a rugby player cant bring down someone while wrapping their arms around them, then how the hell does touching someone on the arm bring a footballer down?

Touched on the arm - probably shouldn't go down. Tap on the leg or foot? Can easily bring someone down if they're running at speed.

Back in my schooldays, we learned how to tap someone's foot into their other foot, sending them sprawling. You could do it at walking pace if you got it right.

[Phatz]

You have clearly neglected to account for wind speed in your analysis.

Laden or unladen?

[rob1966]

Alan is right, it doesn't take much to trip someone running. Rugby players are expecting the hit and they are WAAAAAY stronger than footballers. What gets me is the theatrics in the fall. You get tripped and you aren't playing best man dead, you go down like a sack of shit, you don't fly through the air, legs folded under, head thrown back arms all over the place.

Heres Luke Shaw in an unexpected trip

[Dr. Beaker]

I remember a game between CFC and Barca where Terry and Ronaldinho were both playing. Ronaldinho was playing to his usual standard and was quite often fouled, behaving like footballers normally behave when fouled. However a situation then arose where he was going through a gap just outside the penalty area - if he got through, it was a goal. Terry spotted this and raced across to him at speed to body check Ronaldinho from the side at full speed - a formiddable force. Ronaldinho new it was coming and adjusted his centre of gravity (ala Dalglish) and Terry bounced off him (!) - goal. That shows what can be done when you know whats coming. I agree with the above though that when moving at full speed the slightest shove or ankle tap (which is easy to disguise as accidental, although anyone who has ever played knows, you know when you're too close) and your a goner - and their are no aeronautics, chin ploughs furrow in most undignified fashion.

[vblfc]

I think we are trying to use VAR as an added insurance with the offside trap on opponent free kicks inside our half. 
To defend the free-kick, our defense lines up on 18yrd line and pushes up just as the free kick is taken to render any advancing attackers very likely offside. Then I guess there's a good chance Allison sweeps up anything in behind. VAR should make this work better ie. We will sometimes need VAR for attackers crossing over defenders which are marginal.  We do this a lot now and commentators have pointed it out or said that sometimes it doesn't work  (offside isn't given) But it seems that's generally if there is no goal even when striker is clearly offside on replay (based on linesman instructions to not raise flag initially, if a marginal offside?). 
One exception was Villa goal, which itself was close to offside, but you could see the attacker timing his run from far out to beat the trap.
It has been very effective up to now but, have to be honest - it makes me nervous and needs discipline (and probably VAR) to execute correctly.

[rob1966]

One to get PoP fuming 

Could have done with it in the Bromley V Bristol City FA Cup replay. Bromley throw, takes it long, goes in - correctly disallowed as didn't touch anyone on the way in, Bromley players and crowd not happy, especially as they had a first half goal ruled off for offside - wrongly according to BT commentators.

[Nessy76]

Alan is right, it doesn't take much to trip someone running. Rugby players are expecting the hit and they are WAAAAAY stronger than footballers. What gets me is the theatrics in the fall. You get tripped and you aren't playing best man dead, you go down like a sack of shit, you don't fly through the air, legs folded under, head thrown back arms all over the place.

Heres Luke Shaw in an unexpected trip

You want to be sure that the ref sees it. If you have been fouled, you deserve a penalty. No point at all in pretending that you have not been fouled and giving up a chance to do what you are paid thousands of pounds a day for. So if you just quietly totter and keep your feet, who does that help? If you feel contact, go down, and make sure everyone sees it.

[rob1966]

You want to be sure that the ref sees it. If you have been fouled, you deserve a penalty. No point at all in pretending that you have not been fouled and giving up a chance to do what you are paid thousands of pounds a day for. So if you just quietly totter and keep your feet, who does that help? If you feel contact, go down, and make sure everyone sees it.

Yeah go down, but don't make it look like Tom Daly off top board 

[markedasred]

You know what this thread needs? A scoreboard above it. How many times VAR has won us a game, a point or a penalty, versus pens points and games lost on the same. We could then say, at the end of the season, VAR was this or that for LFC in 19/20.  My suspicion is that already it has suited us better, but will let the stats have last word quite happily.

[SteveZissou]

Man City fan: So, I see you've turned into VAR FC, that's why you're favourites to win the league now.
Me: Yeah, that's true. I called it at the beginning of the season. VAR is here to stay for another 500 years, so if we are VAR FC we are going to win the league 500 times in the next 500 years. You better go and watch Gilli Danda, there's no video assistant referees in that sport.

[4pool]

LiVARpool....

[Jaz]

You know what this thread needs? A scoreboard above it. How many times VAR has won us a game, a point or a penalty, versus pens points and games lost on the same. We could then say, at the end of the season, VAR was this or that for LFC in 19/20.  My suspicion is that already it has suited us better, but will let the stats have last word quite happily.

A post I did way back which is now out of date now by one matchday:

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/english-premier-league/story/3988620/premier-league-without-var-man-city-reduce-liverpools-lead

"Liverpool have surged clear at the top, and believe it or not VAR has not been working in Jurgen Klopp's favour with overturns having no effect on their points tally. Liverpool are given a victory at Manchester United (drew 1-1) and a draw at Chelsea (won 2-1), which even themselves out. Maybe the title isn't going to be won in the VAR room."

[farawayred]

^^^ Don't turn this into a Greek tragedy - a beautiful Hypothesis murdered by an ugly Fact.

[Hazell]

Man City fan: So, I see you've turned into VAR FC, that's why you're favourites to win the league now.
Me: Yeah, that's true. I called it at the beginning of the season. VAR is here to stay for another 500 years, so if we are VAR FC we are going to win the league 500 times in the next 500 years. You better go and watch Gilli Danda, there's no video assistant referees in that sport.

VARCity Blues.

[farawayred]

LiVARpool....

That's what you mean?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF_39AYw6Ms

[SteveZissou]

A post I did way back which is now out of date now by one matchday:

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/english-premier-league/story/3988620/premier-league-without-var-man-city-reduce-liverpools-lead

"Liverpool have surged clear at the top, and believe it or not VAR has not been working in Jurgen Klopp's favour with overturns having no effect on their points tally. Liverpool are given a victory at Manchester United (drew 1-1) and a draw at Chelsea (won 2-1), which even themselves out. Maybe the title isn't going to be won in the VAR room."

This is currently wrong, as firstly it doesn't count today's game so we are already in the positive points column again.
Secondly, it doesn't count Man City's lost points, which is also important to us in the title race.
Thirdly, a count like this is never accurate cos VAR can make a decisive judgment in the first 5 minutes (or any point in the game) then how can you judge the rest of the match when the VAR universe has already been changed...
Also, there are cases where VAR makes a decision, but in the old system the ref might've made the same decision as well - but some people tend to count that as a VAR decision anyway.
It's also like that the other way around, for example with City visiting us nearly everyone says VAR benefited us but in reality, VAR just backed up what hte ref would have decided anyway... so VAR had no effect on those decisions.
Ultimately, one can't say VAR has zero effect, it obviously not only effects a match after a VAR decision is made, but it also psychologically effects how players perform from the start of the game... Don't believe the complicated science? Well, it obviously effects how players tackle and cheat on the pitch. So, a Ferguson kick the opposition off the field technique would be less successful with VAR. You say, with VAR we can get away with yellow card, tactical fouls. True. But many of those Scholes and Keane tackles were red card tackles.

[4pool]

That's what you mean?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF_39AYw6Ms

 

[SteveZissou]

Goal disallowed for City now. That has an effect on the goal difference, if you haven't thought about it, oh calculators.

[stockdam]

Goal disallowed for City now. That has an effect on the goal difference, if you haven't thought about it, oh calculators.

It was tight.

[stevieG786]

Goal disallowed for City now. That has an effect on the goal difference, if you haven't thought about it, oh calculators.

Tbf that sort of offside eos bobbins

[kesey]

Goal disallowed for City now. That has an effect on the goal difference, if you haven't thought about it, oh calculators.

Cost me a 100/1 double.

[rob1966]

Cost me a 100/1 double.

Stooped the keeper looking a c*nt, the weak wristed tart.

[toe punt]

Mike Dean is to ref the derby with Martin Atkinson on VAR apparently so the dream team right there. Putting their incompetence to one side, how can a Tranmere fan from the Wirral get this game? His family are reds apparently so there’s a fair bit of fewm about this selection.

[BoRed]

Mike Dean is to ref the derby with Martin Atkinson on VAR apparently so the dream team right there. Putting their incompetence to one side, how can a Tranmere fan from the Wirral get this game? His family are reds apparently so there’s a fair bit of fewm about this selection.

He was given the derby a few years ago. If I remember correctly, he was so terrified of having to send someone off (probably afraid of being accused of bias) that he just let everything go. We won, but I remember most of all being relieved no one got injured.

[Legoland]

Mike Dean is to ref the derby with Martin Atkinson on VAR apparently so the dream team right there. Putting their incompetence to one side, how can a Tranmere fan from the Wirral get this game? His family are reds apparently so there’s a fair bit of fewm about this selection.

What the  fuck

[farawayred]

I'm quite surprised that this topic hasn't been bumped up on top since the Napoli game...

The goal against us didn't start from a foul, seriously? The guy was looking at Van Dijk all the time, never glanced at the ball; as clear a foul as they get. Then Salah's man-handling by Koulibaly, what the actual fuck?!

VAR supporter here... Fuck VAR!

[rob1966]

I'm quite surprised that this topic hasn't been bumped up on top since the Napoli game...

The goal against us didn't start from a foul, seriously? The guy was looking at Van Dijk all the time, never glanced at the ball; as clear a foul as they get. Then Salah's man-handling by Koulibaly, what the actual fuck?!

VAR supporter here... Fuck VAR!

The onfield ref was a c*nt last night, so to expect the VAR refs to be any better was a waste of time. As the comms said, Mo should have just gone down and the ref gives it, staying on your feet doesn't mean its not a foul

[classycarra]

Missed another handball in a goal today (first southampton goal). Huge error rate in the easiest call to interpret.

For those saying the technology is fine, VAR people themselves told MOTD that they didn't get hold of an angle for ten minutes.

Hawkeye and the british broadcasters aren't free of blame, just because we know english refs are bad too

[Alan_X]

You know what this thread needs? A scoreboard above it. How many times VAR has won us a game, a point or a penalty, versus pens points and games lost on the same. We could then say, at the end of the season, VAR was this or that for LFC in 19/20.  My suspicion is that already it has suited us better, but will let the stats have last word quite happily.

How would you know? We play to the final whistle and our mentality monsters just keep going.

Say VAR chalks a goal off for the opposition and we win 1-0, playing out the last fifteen minutes comfortably, bringing on defensive players to close things out. You would claim that’s a win for VAR.

But if the goal stood do you really believe this Liverpool team would not respond and try to get a winner? Would we make the same defensive subs or would we bring on attackers to get the winning goal?

[BoRed]

So how come that Brighton goal was allowed to stand? Putting aside the fact that Atkinson had no business whistling when Adrian was still setting up his wall (otherwise no goalkeeper would ever be able to set up a wall knowing the ref could whistle at any time), their players were all over our wall, and the rules clearly state they're not allowed within a yard of the wall. Another case of the VAR not knowing basic rules of the game?



They measure offside by armpits, but they miss this by half a yard.