Topic: RAWK IT professionals - any career advice?

[Mark Walters]

So I have a few friends and relatives who work for the border force (we live near Heathrow) and for their checks 6-12 months is pretty much standard for the checks to be completed, one girl who used to work for us left to join the foreign office IT team and they dug into everything, they interviewed our manager, they even questioned her about people her boyfriend played football with and asked questions about how well she knew them… they don’t mess about!

I can't wait that long!

[west_london_red]

I can't wait that long!

It’s a wonder they manage to recruit anyone the time it takes to be honest, it’s probably worth asking the question beforehand how long the background checks take so at least you have an idea but just be prepared it might take a while.

[Mark Walters]

It’s a wonder they manage to recruit anyone the time it takes to be honest, it’s probably worth asking the question beforehand how long the background checks take so at least you have an idea but just be prepared it might take a while.

It was one of the first things discussed. They only said "months".  The government website suggests somewhere between 6-12 weeks.

[Mark Walters]

Got a potential gig lined up already.  Need to update my CV but also need MoD security clearance and I have no idea what that involves.

Got a written offer for this job. They were looking for a needle in a haystack and I was contacted by 4 -5 different agencies over the summer because they could not find anyone with the required clearance AND the necessary experience.  30-minute Teams interview last Tuesday, verbal offer last Wednesday, written offer today.  I'll start mid-September if all goes well with the security clearance. Not bad considering I wasn't actively looking for a job!

[Claire.]

unexpected job title of the day: Lead UX Developer/Head of IT

[Rhi]

unexpected job title of the day: Lead UX Developer/Head of IT

😭

My dickhead of a senior manager has just hired a test engineer to lead a Gen AI project.

[ELMO!]

😭

My dickhead of a senior manager has just hired a test engineer to lead a Gen AI project.

At my work the IT department has been moved to be reporting to the COO and the COO joined one of our meetings to have a talk and answer questions. He was asked what are the most important priorities for the IT department and his answer was AI.....

Without going into details of my work, there are probably 20 different things that are way more important for IT just to keep everything running (primarily keeping comms up and working well to our offshore rigs, and cybersecurity) so money can come in the door from clients. But to execs, AI is everything right now.   

[PaulF]

Yeah. I'm guessing everyone has to be seen to be doing AI.
I must admit I'm flabbergasted at how quickly it's appeared in lots of things.  Like within a year.   I'm guessing companies had been working on it for a while before chatgpt catapulted mainstream.  Even ML was growing pretty fast , and to be fair a lot more discretely, probably costing consumers millions on stuff they didn't want before.

[bradders1011]

A lot of it isn't AI, it's throwing more processor power at pattern recognition.

[AndyMuller]

Are these bootcamps worth paying for? I'm looking to get into Cybersecurity but have no previous IT experiences besides a GCSE and basis skills.

[Andy @ Allerton]

Are these bootcamps worth paying for? I'm looking to get into Cybersecurity but have no previous IT experiences besides a GCSE and basis skills.

Training doesn't really do it. It's what you do with the training that counts. If you know everything academically then that means nothing in the real world if you can't apply it.

I'd suggest you have a look at Udemy - loads of different courses on there and many provide 'hands on' lessons. BUT you then need to apply these yourself and work with the concepts to create something that actually does something and works.

If you have an old laptop, look at getting ubuntu (or other linux) on it and you can download and run stuff like kubernetes (microk8s), fortinet or palo alto virtual firewalls on it. Then you want to look at stuff like Wireshark and maybe have a look into getting an AWS (or other cloud) account and go through things like IaM, DNS, Edge networking, VPC, VPN, Route53, routing, loadbalancers and the like.

You can set up quite a lot of stuff for free or you can look at getting something like aCloudGuru that lets you spin up AWS/Azure/GCP environments and do real world stuff on the cloud without incurring costs.


Doing a course is the very, very first step. Being able to use and work with stuff and create things that do something from scratch is where your learning comes in.

 
I've got three Ubuntu machines running kubernetes (microk8s - on two nodes), virtual firewalls, AWS (Localstack) and a ton of other stuff that allows me to use Istio (mesh) and wireshark (to probe security) and the other stuff around this that you need to know.


One note. If you have an old machine that's fine, but I'd seriously recommend that you replace the harddrive with an SSD and up the memory (My kubernetes nodes have both got 2TB drives and the combined memory is 96GB) - the SSD and the spare memory really, really speed stuff up. Stuff like Microk8s lets you create a master then slave nodes and stuff like Istio and other microservices really let you get into stuff. My firewalls are in k8s and my other tools and utilities run in there two - which means it's all a lot more 'joined up' as the tools complement each other.

For instance, on my k8s nodes I also have Prometheus (Metrics), Loki (Logging), Kiali (Networking with Istio Mesh), ArgoCD (For deployments), Grafana (For reporting/graphing), Alert Manager (For alerting), node-exporter (For exporting custom metrics) and Jaeger (Tracing).

As these things are all in the mesh then the reporting and security stuff goes hand in hand with wiresharking it and catching packets. Even seeing its routine stuff gives you plenty of scope to learn and build)

[Claire.]

Not my area and I know boot camps are pretty much useless now for my area (ui/ux engineering) but an old colleague of mine used tools like https://www.hackthebox.com/ to get into cybersecurity, he started as a QA, which might be a way in for you.

Another one I’ve seen him use that has a free route: https://tryhackme.com/

[Buck Pete]

Are these bootcamps worth paying for? I'm looking to get into Cybersecurity but have no previous IT experience besides a GCSE and basis skills.

Right, Andy here's my advice. Start at the beginning and get yourself on the CompTIA certification path.  Highly respected IT certifications that will (with a bit of luck) get your foot firmly in the door.

First, do the CompTIA A+ certification, then move on to Network+, then onto Security+

A+ - If you've got the aptitude for it, then the A+ will be a breeze, and you can have it done in a couple of weeks/months.

Network+ - Any cybersecurity role will demand you have a grounding or understanding of computer Networks.

Security+ - An extremely valuable entry-level cybersecurity Cert, and highly respected by employers.  Get this done!!

Although I don't work in cybersecurity, it interests me, so when I got made redundant last March, while I was in-between jobs I did the CompTIA Security+ purely as another string to my bow.  It was really interesting and I thoroughly enjoyed it

I used the Jason Dion Udemy courses and he is great.  But there are tons of others out there.   Do a google and read all about the CompTIA certs and go from there. Good luck.

[west_london_red]

I really didn’t enjoy CompTia at all, did the first course and there was just too much remembering of relatively pointless facts like the different speeds of different version of USB ports and number of pins on different DIMMs, I’ve been building PCs since I was about 16 and can navigate myself around the internal workings of a PC with my eyes shut and I’ve never needed to remember such things, you just work out the comparability with the motherboard, not sit there counting pins.

[Andy @ Allerton]

Right, Andy here's my advice. Start at the beginning and get yourself on the CompTIA certification path.  Highly respected IT certifications that will (with a bit of luck) get your foot firmly in the door.

First, do the CompTIA A+ certification, then move on to Network+, then onto Security+

A+ - If you've got the aptitude for it, then the A+ will be a breeze, and you can have it done in a couple of weeks/months.

Network+ - Any cybersecurity role will demand you have a grounding or understanding of computer Networks.

Security+ - An extremely valuable entry-level cybersecurity Cert, and highly respected by employers.  Get this done!!

Although I don't work in cybersecurity, it interests me, so when I got made redundant last March, while I was in-between jobs I did the CompTIA Security+ purely as another string to my bow.  It was really interesting and I thoroughly enjoyed it

I used the Jason Dion Udemy courses and he is great.  But there are tons of others out there.   Do a google and read all about the CompTIA certs and go from there. Good luck.

You don't need Certification though, I've done IT for 40 years and I'm not certified in anything.

Foot in the door is always a thing to consider. Get in at the bottom, learn all there is to learn and progress.

[Graeme]

You don't need Certification though, I've done IT for 40 years and I'm not certified in anything.

Foot in the door is always a thing to consider. Get in at the bottom, learn all there is to learn and progress.

This was pretty much my route too. Had the skills, knowledge and desire but not much in the way of qualifications.

Volunteered at my kids school helping with basic IT tasks, went for an entry level IT job in an office and the fact I’d volunteered in the field made the CEO give me the job because she said I showed a desire others hadn’t. From their moved into Local Government IT and progressed through a few roles and I know work in Social Housing at IT Architecture level on a very good salary. It’s been a 13/14 year journey from volunteering in my spare times to where I am now but like I say no certifications to show for it, although my employer is funding TOGAF for me in the new year.

[Claire.]

I also have naff all qualifications or certifications.

[Draex]

When did you get your current jobs Andy/Claire? From what I've heard/seen AI is used by HR now to shift through CVs looking for basic skills/qualifications so it's so hard to get even to interview without the relevant ones. I can imagine firms missing out on so many quality people from it.

[Graeme]

My own personal take on this is I only apply for jobs where the post is advertised by the hiring organisation directly and I can apply directly, I won't deal with recruitment agencies.

I might be wide of the mark, but I am of the opinion that pretty much every recruitment agency in the country is a bunch of self-important parasites. That comes from from experience as a both a jobseeker and more recently helping out with some recruitment at my current workplace.

When I see a job I'm interested in, I'll look at the company on LinkedIn, see if anybody I know has worked there and get a feel for what it's like to work there and see if it's the right fit for me.

[Buck Pete]

When did you get your current jobs Andy/Claire?

I'd wager, back when being able to run a few lines of BASIC on a ZX81 was looked upon in awe.  (Same as me I might add ).  When simply showing an interest in IT was enough to get you a job.

Steering the OP (Andy M) away from going out and bagging, some basic certifications and doing some training courses to gain essential IT knowledge that will help get a foot in the door in an entry-level position, is not good IMO.

Submitting a CV with your job history as a shelf stacker in Tesco who happens to have a Linux build at home with Kubernetes on, isn't going to get you anywhere.

Like it or lump it.  Unless you are very lucky, most employers these days want to see some proof of knowledge in black & white.  Hell, It's hard enough for inexperienced applicants to get their CV considered before the plethora of graduates with an IT degree.  Without a cert or proven industry training to back it up. forget it.

I'm not advising on Boot camps btw.  They are a rip-off and knowledge overload IMO.  I am, however, a big advocate of well-structured, hands-on self-placed training courses.

[Claire.]

I'd wager, back when being able to run a few lines of BASIC on a ZX81 was looked upon in awe.  (Same as me I might add ).

think I was in primary school then, Pete, ya cheeky fucker!

When did you get your current jobs Andy/Claire? From what I've heard/seen AI is used by HR now to shift through CVs looking for basic skills/qualifications so it's so hard to get even to interview without the relevant ones. I can imagine firms missing out on so many quality people from it.

about 2009 for me, I got my first job in 2007 that I don't really count and did that for a year, went back to London where I'd gone to uni and with no qualifications or experience found it hard so went for design roles - that I did have qualifications in - and then mentioned in interviews I could do front end as well and it took me about a year to side step to where I really wanted to be.

[Claire.]

Steering the OP (Andy M) away from going out and bagging, some basic certifications and doing some training courses to gain essential IT knowledge that will help get a foot in the door in an entry-level position, is not good IMO.

Submitting a CV with your job history as a shelf stacker in Tesco who happens to have a Linux build at home with Kubernetes on, isn't going to get you anywhere.

Like it or lump it.  Unless you are very lucky, most employers these days want to see some proof of knowledge in black & white.  Hell, It's hard enough for inexperienced applicants to get their CV considered before the plethora of graduates with an IT degree.  Without a cert or proven industry training to back it up. forget it.

I'm not advising on Boot camps btw.  They are a rip-off and knowledge overload IMO.  I am, however, a big advocate of well-structured, hands-on self-placed training courses.

It all depends on what he wants to do before we can even recommend anything, I think it's good to know there's folks who've built careers with nothing formal. In my world, that's a comp sci degree. Andy M just said 'cybersecurity' well it's a big area, I don't work in IT, I'm on the engineering side so it's different stuff. You can go from a QA position that requires no quals and a good attitude to pen testing and all the fun shit, I know because I've seen people do it.

[Andy @ Allerton]

When did you get your current jobs Andy/Claire? From what I've heard/seen AI is used by HR now to shift through CVs looking for basic skills/qualifications so it's so hard to get even to interview without the relevant ones. I can imagine firms missing out on so many quality people from it.

Started coding when I was about 7. Had some mates I used to hang with and they went with that. I brought money in to the house - we were a bit poor - and did some stuff for a company that turned out to be IT guys. Wrote their stuff and got more money in and contracted and worked and brough more money in.

My mates are mutli-millionaires and you'd know their names and games


Do I regret just doing what I did? Nah. Did pretty well myself. Helpe quite a few people on the way



BUT

I'm a games coder and a game guy and no one has done my ideas.

Maybe one day. I have so much more to give.

Maybe. One day.

It all depends on what he wants to do before we can even recommend anything, I think it's good to know there's folks who've built careers with nothing formal. In my world, that's a comp sci degree. Andy M just said 'cybersecurity' well it's a big area, I don't work in IT, I'm on the engineering side so it's different stuff. You can go from a QA position that requires no quals and a good attitude to pen testing and all the fun shit, I know because I've seen people do it.

[Ben S]

Starting a shitty website / forum and putting the Linux experience that came with that on my CV was my way in.

Also did Comptia A+ as part of Labours New deal but that was a boring waste of time in all honesty.

[Kashinoda]

With regards to qualifications - it may very well be industry dependent.

I flunked out of Uni but managed to pick up a job as an IT Administrator about 10 years ago after I had spent the best part of 6 months on universal credit doing the odd website, it was low paying for the position so I imagine that's why less people didn't go in for it. That job helped me get land consulting job within a year (albeit with a pay cut). Now I'm a Principal Consultant, it's always worth starting low but you do need to move on quickly if you see no career progression.

Over the last decade or so we've tried hiring graduates and they've frankly been shite, within our particular team we only have around 30% with degrees or any form of qualification. It's more interesting to look for people who have a clear interest in technology,  personal projects are great and usually give you some insight.

Make a website which demonstrates everything you can do on a technical level. Cast the net wide, if you have qualification by all means show them off too. Might cost you a small bit of money but it's worth it, a lot of the Azure and Microsoft stuff is free if you're going that route. If you're more into bespoke web apps you can easily grab a VPS for pittance and deploy some Node.JS apps, etc.

Another thing - you want hits on shit like Indeed, have a large section of your CV filled with buzz words which are relevant to your skillset. You don't need to detail that stuff you just want to increase the hit count.

As an aside, 14 years since I made this thread and was bemoaning the possibility of a 2:2

[Andy @ Allerton]

I'd wager, back when being able to run a few lines of BASIC on a ZX81 was looked upon in awe.  (Same as me I might add ).  When simply showing an interest in IT was enough to get you a job.

Steering the OP (Andy M) away from going out and bagging, some basic certifications and doing some training courses to gain essential IT knowledge that will help get a foot in the door in an entry-level position, is not good IMO.

Submitting a CV with your job history as a shelf stacker in Tesco who happens to have a Linux build at home with Kubernetes on, isn't going to get you anywhere.

Like it or lump it.  Unless you are very lucky, most employers these days want to see some proof of knowledge in black & white.  Hell, It's hard enough for inexperienced applicants to get their CV considered before the plethora of graduates with an IT degree.  Without a cert or proven industry training to back it up. forget it.

I'm not advising on Boot camps btw.  They are a rip-off and knowledge overload IMO.  I am, however, a big advocate of well-structured, hands-on self-placed training courses.

Not sure I agree with that.

If I were doing an interview and someone had a degree in computer science and knocked up the odd website I'd be less than impressed.

If someone was working as a shelf stacker and had created an entire Kubernetes cluster with localstack and had a working microservice build incorporating all the tools and had set it up so you could log onto it in the office and they went through how they built it, how they set up automatic maintencence and autoscaling and automated their dependabot updates and showed you the microservice and tools running on it and showed me the terraform and kubernetes scripts and build and docker scripts then I'd be a bit more impressed.

[Rhi]

Starting a shitty website / forum and ...

And you regret it to this day?

[Draex]

about 2009 for me, I got my first job in 2007 that I don't really count and did that for a year, went back to London where I'd gone to uni and with no qualifications or experience found it hard so went for design roles - that I did have qualifications in - and then mentioned in interviews I could do front end as well and it took me about a year to side step to where I really wanted to be.

Started coding when I was about 7. Had some mates I used to hang with and they went with that. I brought money in to the house - we were a bit poor - and did some stuff for a company that turned out to be IT guys. Wrote their stuff and got more money in and contracted and worked and brough more money in.

This was my point, it should be how good someone is not what qualifications they have but a lot of jobs are really hard to get in without the basic qualifications for the job despite that being utter nonsense and actually meaning companies missing out of so many really talented people. The job market is incredibly competitive these days, add in how many companies abuse cheap labour abroad and are utilising AI to screen cvs getting that initial foot in the door for a chat is harder than ever so at least having some base qualifications is only going to help despite in reality them not meaning a lot v's actual experience (personal or work setting).

The posts about having a portfolio of work are also really useful, anything that gives you an edge be that a url on your cv which links to your own vimeo or web site hosting examples of your work will really help you stand out. As was the one about seeing a job from a recruiter but then going directly to the company itself.

Tough old game, in Jan I'll be looking myself eek.

[Ben S]

And you regret it to this day?

No comment. 

[PaulF]

I imagine the toolset, and very much the mindset for cybersecurity varies between those setting up networks to be secure from those trying to find holes in the security.

[Andy @ Allerton]

I imagine the toolset, and very much the mindset for cybersecurity varies between those setting up networks to be secure from those trying to find holes in the security.

If you're setting up networks then you need to know about exploits, vunerabilities and the rest.

Whether you leverage a third party or build it yourself, it's your responsibility to know about attack vectors and how to contain and neutralise them.