Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread

[SwordInYourGut]

Anyway.....

I think I read that Toni Gomez is out for six months with a knee injury...

Would be very sad for the kid...

Please let this not be true. A decent youth team striker comes along once in 3-4 years and all of them pick up awful injuries

[suede lady]

Gomez hasn't been injured for about a third of both the past 2 seasons like Ilori has, he's also versitile enough to play fullback on either flank, something which Ilori isn't.

All this fume over a player who hasn't even really done anything to justify it. If Ilori has been Bordeux'a player last season nobody would be up in arms if we didn't sign him, cos he didn't pull up any trees.

He won't even be a starter for Villa either btw. Not until Richards gets his obligatory injury. He'll go in there and be back up to him and Lescott.

Granted he seems to be injury prone, a bit like Agger. But do we know he cant play fullback - no because we never tried him there. We don't know what he can do because he was not given the chance. That is what irks me, he was never even tested. If he had not been away with Portugal in the summer, would he have been given the chance to impress on tour?

[Nessy76]

Usually I don't get that upset about transfers of squad members, but the way Ilori is treated sucks big time. Sorry but Brendan got it so wrong this time. What does Gomez actually have in raw talent that Ilori lacks? Speed, strength composure? I could see the two of them being our next centre back pairing for 10 years! Why promote one and dump the other?

The conspiracy theorist will fly out of the roof with " transfer committee signings" etc. Well done Rodgers, lets hope your favourite centre backs do come through.

Has "RAWK in meltdown" got hold of that one yet?

If you can't see that Gomez is a talent, there's no hope for you.

[rickardinho1]

Has "RAWK in meltdown" got hold of that one yet?

If you can't see that Gomez is a talent, there's no hope for you.

I don't think the poster is suggesting that Gomez doesn't have talent (because he obviously does for anyone with at least one functioning eye). I do agree with the overall premise of the comment you bolded, which is that Ilori has many of the same characteristics Gomez has (pace, comfort in the ball, agility, etc).

[Cpt_Reina]

Granted he seems to be injury prone, a bit like Agger. But do we know he cant play fullback - no because we never tried him there. We don't know what he can do because he was not given the chance. That is what irks me, he was never even tested. If he had not been away with Portugal in the summer, would he have been given the chance to impress on tour?

If he's never played there, be it by Rodgers, or the scores of other managers he's played under at club/international level perhaps there's a clue there that he just can't do it.

They see a lot more of him than we do, after all, and none of these coaches seem to have played him at fullback. I tend to think there's a reason for that.

The bolded part is a complete straw man. He was away, he then had his child. None of these factors are down to the club or the manager to control. If Ilori wasnt on loan or given a go during pre-season then that's in no way the club's fault.

[CraigDS]

I think the main reason why so many fans got overexcited over Ilori was the constant referrals to how fast he was, and also the size of the fee, leading most of us to believe he must be something special

A max of £6.3m? Some of which was no doubt dependent on certain conditions.

I'd hardly say that was such a sizable fee that it would cause us getting anymore excited about him than normal for a youth player.

If he had not been away with Portugal in the summer, would he have been given the chance to impress on tour?

How about if he didn't get injured once again whilst away with Portugal which made him miss the whole of pre-season and only return to training on the 10th August... maybe then he would of got a chance in some games. Or maybe that injury was the one which broke the camels back and made it clear after 2 years of near constant injuries that we are better placed investing coaching time, a squad place, and money in another youngster who isn't always injured.

Tough on the kid for sure, but with such a conveyor belt of talent coming through each year if you don't take your chances to show what you can do (on loan or with us) then that's what happens.

[Chris~]

Anyway.....

I think I read that Toni Gomez is out for six months with a knee injury...

Would be very sad for the kid...

Pretty sure they said it was a hamstring injury during the last u18 game.

[Coolie High]

If he's never played there, be it by Rodgers, or the scores of other managers he's played under at club/international level perhaps there's a clue there that he just can't do it.

They see a lot more of him than we do, after all, and none of these coaches seem to have played him at fullback. I tend to think there's a reason for that.

The bolded part is a complete straw man. He was away, he then had his child. None of these factors are down to the club or the manager to control. If Ilori wasnt on loan or given a go during pre-season then that's in no way the club's fault.

He played there for Sporting.

[SwordInYourGut]

Sometimes I am bemused by the reactions when we let some young player go, because the manager has been evaluating them for years in training. Ilori, though, he has barely been here. Rodgers has seen him in training Sept-Dec 2013 when he was settling in to a new club. If he was such a talent that we paid out ~ €5-6 million to get him, we should keep him here for a year now and see if he can force his way into the team rather than scrambling to get a €2-3 million extra through a loan fee and possible value growth on loan.

[Cpt_Reina]

He played there for Sporting.

And in the interveining 2 seasons? How many apps at fullback? Club and country even, make it as broad as possible.

[CraigDS]

Sometimes I am bemused by the reactions when we let some young player go, because the manager has been evaluating them for years in training. Ilori, though, he has barely been here. Rodgers has seen him in training Sept-Dec 2013 when he was settling in to a new club. If he was such a talent that we paid out ~ €5-6 million to get him, we should keep him here for a year now and see if he can force his way into the team rather than scrambling to get a €2-3 million extra through a loan fee and possible value growth on loan.

Is he unable to evaluate a player whilst playing on loan for 18 months or can this ONLY be done during training?

[lionel_messias]

Is anyone telling me Kolo Toure gets a game at Liverpool ahead of Thiago?

I mean that's obviously the case now.

[CraigDS]

Is anyone telling me Kolo Toure gets a game at Liverpool ahead of Thiago?

I mean that's obviously the case now.

Even ignoring Toure... Skrtel, Lovren, Sakho and Gomez all appear ahead of him for the central positions. Possibly Can too if we're in a long term injury crisis.

[Cpt_Reina]

Is anyone telling me Kolo Toure gets a game at Liverpool ahead of Thiago?

I mean that's obviously the case now.

Toure hasn't got any games this season so far so this seems a bit of a baseless comment.

We'll be especially unlucky to see Toure get more than a handful of appearances this season, so even if Ilori took those is that really more beneficial to him than a full season on loan at a club where he's higher in the pecking order?

Toure isnt the issue with Ilori getting minutes here, its Sakho/Skrtel/Lovren/Gomez and possibly Can (as mentioned above).

[KingKolo]

Even ignoring Toure... Skrtel, Lovren, Sakho and Gomez all appear ahead of him for the central positions.

Yeah, exactly.

Seems quite a few are annoyed that Ilori has gone, but I don't really get why.
It's not as though he was ever present and indispensable at either Bordeaux or Granada.
He had a couple of run-outs for the under21s early this season and didn't take that as an opportunity to show his best form at all.
He had a good under 21 champs, but got injured during. Story of his career so far.

Yes, our 4 centre-backs are a bit too shit for Liverpool, but it's not as though Ilori looks like he's the solution.

[SwordInYourGut]

Is he unable to evaluate a player whilst playing on loan for 18 months or can this ONLY be done during training?

He can't evaluate him day to day when he is out on loan. Besides, Ilori did not play enough on loan for Rodgers to evaluate him thoroughly. If 2 years ago, the management thought he looked a great prospect, I don't think they have a large enough sample set since then to say with any certainty that he isn't all that. 

[CraigDS]

He can't evaluate him day to day when he is out on loan. Besides, Ilori did not play enough on loan for Rodgers to evaluate him thoroughly. If 2 years ago, the management thought he looked a great prospect, I don't think they have a large enough sample set since then to say with any certainty that he isn't all that.

And can the bit in bold above not be the crux of the issue?

We've given the guy 2 years of being at clubs high up the pecking order, and he has managed about 1800 minutes because he is constantly getting injured. Could it not be a case of the club deciding that this is likely to be a continuing issue, which will not only prevent his development but also if he does become a starter prevent him from being able to be relied upon (see Agger, see Sakho)?

[KingKolo]

And can the bit in bold above not be the crux of the issue?

We've given the guy 2 years of being at clubs high up the pecking order, and he has managed about 1800 minutes because he is constantly getting injured. Could it not be a case of the club deciding that this is likely to be a continuing issue, which will not only prevent his development but also if he does become a starter prevent him from being able to be relied upon (see Agger, see Sakho)?

Yep.

[Cpt_Reina]

He can't evaluate him day to day when he is out on loan. Besides, Ilori did not play enough on loan for Rodgers to evaluate him thoroughly. If 2 years ago, the management thought he looked a great prospect, I don't think they have a large enough sample set since then to say with any certainty that he isn't all that.

Why hasn't he played enough?

[jooneyisdagod]

And can the bit in bold above not be the crux of the issue?

We've given the guy 2 years of being at clubs high up the pecking order, and he has managed about 1800 minutes because he is constantly getting injured. Could it not be a case of the club deciding that this is likely to be a continuing issue, which will not only prevent his development but also if he does become a starter prevent him from being able to be relied upon (see Agger, see Sakho)?

Why are you creating so many scenarios and what if's to justify a player being let go? The obvious and the simplest answer is that Rodgers didn't fancy him. Everything else is just a case of you inventing scenarios in which that is okay.

[KingKolo]

Why are you creating so many scenarios and what if's to justify a player being let go? The obvious and the simplest answer is that Rodgers didn't fancy him. Everything else is just a case of you inventing scenarios in which that is okay.

the amount of time he's been injured isn't a what if

[CraigDS]

Why are you creating so many scenarios and what if's to justify a player being let go? The obvious and the simplest answer is that Rodgers didn't fancy him. Everything else is just a case of you inventing scenarios in which that is okay.

Where are the what ifs? Is it not true that Ilori has suffered constant injury problems in the last two years?

[jooneyisdagod]

the amount of time he's been injured isn't a what if

It isn't. The conjecture comes thereafter. As I said, he's been sent on loan possibly because he's not particularly fancied. That he's got a loan at Villa is good because we'll find out soon enough if he's cut out to play in this league. But I'm not too convinced about the injury angle at all. Particularly, with Sakho lumped in there alongside Agger and Illori when we have just witnessed a truly god awful performance from Lovren.

[jooneyisdagod]

Where are the what ifs? Is it not true that Ilori has suffered constant injury problems in the last two years?

Because constantly picking up injuries didn't seem to stop Johnson previously and currently doesn't seem to be stopping Lallana or Allen now. Lallana having had a stop-start season was immediately a part of the starting XI this year. Allen has made a countless comebacks into the team from an injury break. Granted you could make the point that they were midfielders and that's not the same as a defender, but Johnson certainly was.

[CraigDS]

It isn't. The conjecture comes thereafter. As I said, he's been sent on loan possibly because he's not particularly fancied. That he's got a loan at Villa is good because we'll find out soon enough if he's cut out to play in this league. But I'm not too convinced about the injury angle at all. Particularly, with Sakho lumped in there alongside Agger and Illori when we have just witnessed a truly god awful performance from Lovren.

I'm happy if the thinking was they just didn't rate him. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. But let's not pretend looking at a players injury record, both youth players and senior, doesn't come into the thinking at all.

Put it this way, if we were looking to sign him yesterday from Villa, do you think the fact he has missed a huge amount of game time over the last 2 years through injury would be considered before doing the deal?

Because constantly picking up injuries didn't seem to stop Johnson previously and currently doesn't seem to be stopping Lallana or Allen now. Lallana having had a stop-start season was immediately a part of the starting XI this year. Allen has made a countless comebacks into the team from an injury break. Granted you could make the point that they were midfielders and that's not the same as a defender, but Johnson certainly was.

They are all senior players though, who have had their break in the side and played countless games to show their level.

Johnson's new deal was pulled last season, and it will be in no small part down to his injury record in recent seasons.

[KingKolo]

Because constantly picking up injuries didn't seem to stop Johnson previously and currently doesn't seem to be stopping Lallana or Allen now. Lallana having had a stop-start season was immediately a part of the starting XI this year. Allen has made a countless comebacks into the team from an injury break. Granted you could make the point that they were midfielders and that's not the same as a defender, but Johnson certainly was.

Either way, Ilori has done absolutely nothing to show that he's good enough in the last 2 years.

[Coolie High]

And in the interveining 2 seasons? How many apps at fullback? Club and country even, make it as broad as possible.

I don't know exactly, but he only played 12 games before we brought him, some of those at left back?).

[CraigDS]

I don't know exactly, but he only played 12 games before we brought him, some of those at left back?).

From what I can gather, he played some of those games at Sporting at LB (and some at LCB). Since I don't think he has played at fullback though, for loan clubs, our U21's, or country.

[Coolie High]

Either way, Ilori has done absolutely nothing to show that he's good enough in the last 2 years.

What exactly were we expecting him to do when we signed him?

Considering he went on loan pretty much straight away, has he shown hes good enough to play a squad role for us, her certainly has imo.

He doesn't need to be a world beater to be a squad player, quite evidently given the situation of our first team.

[Cpt_Reina]

Because constantly picking up injuries didn't seem to stop Johnson previously and currently doesn't seem to be stopping Lallana or Allen now. Lallana having had a stop-start season was immediately a part of the starting XI this year. Allen has made a countless comebacks into the team from an injury break. Granted you could make the point that they were midfielders and that's not the same as a defender, but Johnson certainly was.

Lallana and Allen have both proved themselves to an extent that Ilori hasn't even got close to.

They've had seasons where they've posted strong numbers in terms of appearances and put in top level performances, Ilori thus far has done neither.

If Ilori had gone to Grandada and Bordeaux and absolutely blown the league away with his quality and level of performance, or managed to stay fit enough to manage more than the paltry 24 apps in 2 seasons then we might have indulged his injuries in a way that we do with Allen/Lallana/Sakho/Lucas but he didn't.

He's proved nothing. And so his injuries are not indulged to the same extent as those players, because he hasn't earned the right for them to be.

[jooneyisdagod]

I'm happy if the thinking was they just didn't rate him. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. But let's not pretend looking at a players injury record, both youth players and senior, doesn't come into the thinking at all.

Put it this way, if we were looking to sign him yesterday from Villa, do you think the fact he has missed a huge amount of game time over the last 2 years through injury would be considered before doing the deal?


They are all senior players though, who have had their break in the side and played countless games to show their level.

Johnson's new deal was pulled last season, and it will be in no small part down to his injury record in recent seasons.

Well, the point is clearly that Brendan doesn't rate him. While I'm not saying that injury records don't come into play, it's a fallacious way of looking at things when discussing one's own players. Teams might be wary of signing a player with injury troubles but having signed him, and given their weekly wages, it makes little sense for a player with recurring injury troubles to not get checked up by doctors that the club trusts and to try and get to the root of it as it has happened with Sturridge. And it would have happened with Ilori if the manager fancied him, which he quite clearly didn't.

Why the manager didn't fancy the player is for another day. But the injury angle doesn't seem to be mentioned by any of the regular Liverpool associated journalist.

[KingKolo]

What exactly were we expecting him to do when we signed him?

Considering he went on loan pretty much straight away, has he shown hes good enough to play a squad role for us, her certainly has imo.

He played 9 times for Granada in half a season and 12 times for Bordeaux in a whole season.
Then looked total wank for the under21s at the start of this season.

I know we're all keen to have better options at centre-back, but deciding that this guy represents that is desperation.

[CraigDS]

Well, the point is clearly that Brendan doesn't rate him. While I'm not saying that injury records don't come into play, it's a fallacious way of looking at things when discussing one's own players. Teams might be wary of signing a player with injury troubles but having signed him, and given their weekly wages, it makes little sense for a player with recurring injury troubles to not get checked up by doctors that the club trusts and to try and get to the root of it as it has happened with Sturridge. And it would have happened with Ilori if the manager fancied him, which he quite clearly didn't.

How would you know it hasn't? How would you know it isn't a case of it being a recurring theme? Or could possibly take a long while out injured to fix - something which isn't ideal for a developing player who is 23 this year?

Why the manager didn't fancy the player is for another day. But the injury angle doesn't seem to be mentioned by any of the regular Liverpool associated journalist.

They haven't said the manager doesn't rate him either...

[jooneyisdagod]

Lallana and Allen have both proved themselves to an extent that Ilori hasn't even got close to.

They've had seasons where they've posted strong numbers in terms of appearances and put in top level performances, Ilori thus far has done neither.

If Ilori had gone to Grandada and Bordeaux and absolutely blown the league away with his quality and level of performance, or managed to stay fit enough to manage more than the paltry 24 apps in 2 seasons then we might have indulged his injuries in a way that we do with Allen/Lallana/Sakho/Lucas but he didn't.

He's proved nothing. And so his injuries are not indulged to the same extent as those players, because he hasn't earned the right for them to be.

We clearly don't indulge Sakho's injuries though. If Craig has it right, then Sakho isn't a part of Brendan's preferred first XI purely because of his inability to stay fit. So, we're obviously not indulging his injury troubles at all.

Ilori's injuries have obviously prevented him from reaching his potential. They never let him get a steady string of games and therefore, hampered his development significantly. Now, if the manager viewed him as a serious talent if he could get over his injury troubles, he would not have been sent on loan and would instead be looking at going to the club's best specialists to get the player fit again. Instead, he's gone on loan again and got injured again. Clearly, the manager doesn't rate him highly enough for any time to be invested into his medical problems.

Ultimately, it comes down to how highly the manager rates him. The manager obviously indulges some players with injuries but not others. And some of the players that have been indulged are not in the opinion of many here among our absolute best players. One player though that has not been indulged is our best central defender according to most. Yet he has received no favours. I'll gladly accept Brendan doesn't rate Ilori, but to bring up his injury issues is a bit convenient and really smacks of conjecture rather than anything else.

[Suareznumber7]

Some of you lot on here and in the transfer deadline day thread are going to look a bit daft moaning about Ilori never getting a chance here if he turns out to be crap at Villa. If he's not. If he turns out to be brilliant for them and they take up the option to buy him, that will be the time to have a go at the club for not giving him a chance. But not now. And if they then go on to sell him for 30-40 mill to Chelsea, City or Utd in a couple of years time, that will be the time the club will deserve the full force of your wrath. But again, not now!

The thing is though, we'll have to wait to see if he looks good at Villa before we look daft.  I think everyone would simply prefer that he be given a shot in our team before we give up on the kid.  You simply have to look at the shambolic defending in the last game to see why people may think he's a potential upgrade on what we've seen. 

[Fordy]

Football is a tough business at times and is all about timing.

I said in the Ilori thread that him can going on tour to be at the birth of his kid will cost him his chances here. You only have to remember Rodgers going on so much about Hendo being at the birth of his kid then being in training a few hours later then playing the match the next day.

You also have to remember Rodgers praising Danny Ings for cutting his time off to go on tour.

If Ilori had gone on tour he would of had a chance to impress. Barrinf under 21's we haven't seen him. So while Kent, Teix, Rossiter and Gomez all impressed and now all look to be apart of the EL and cup squads. Ilori is on loan to Villa and will more than likely be sold.

These young players have to take their chances and see the gaps to make it at big clubs.

[CraigDS]

Football is a tough business at times and is all about timing.

I said in the Ilori thread that him can going on tour to be at the birth of his kid will cost him his chances here. You only have to remember Rodgers going on so much about Hendo being at the birth of his kid then being in training a few hours later then playing the match the next day.

You also have to remember Rodgers praising Danny Ings for cutting his time off to go on tour.

If Ilori had gone on tour he would of had a chance to impress. Barrinf under 21's we haven't seen him. So while Kent, Teix, Rossiter and Gomez all impressed and now all look to be apart of the EL and cup squads. Ilori is on loan to Villa and will more than likely be sold.

These young players have to take their chances and see the gaps to make it at big clubs.

He didn't chose not to go on tour, he was injured (again) and didn't start training again until 10th Aug.

[KingKolo]

Some of you lot on here and in the transfer deadline day thread are going to look a bit daft moaning about Ilori never getting a chance here if he turns out to be crap at Villa. If he's not. If he turns out to be brilliant for them and they take up the option to buy him, that will be the time to have a go at the club for not giving him a chance. But not now. And if they then go on to sell him for 30-40 mill to Chelsea, City or Utd in a couple of years time, that will be the time the club will deserve the full force of your wrath. But again, not now!

This is spot on.

[Cpt_Reina]

We clearly don't indulge Sakho's injuries though. If Craig has it right, then Sakho isn't a part of Brendan's preferred first XI purely because of his inability to stay fit. So, we're obviously not indulging his injury troubles at all.

Ilori's injuries have obviously prevented him from reaching his potential. They never let him get a steady string of games and therefore, hampered his development significantly. Now, if the manager viewed him as a serious talent if he could get over his injury troubles, he would not have been sent on loan and would instead be looking at going to the club's best specialists to get the player fit again. Instead, he's gone on loan again and got injured again. Clearly, the manager doesn't rate him highly enough for any time to be invested into his medical problems.

Ultimately, it comes down to how highly the manager rates him. The manager obviously indulges some players with injuries but not others. And some of the players that have been indulged are not in the opinion of many here among our absolute best players. One player though that has not been indulged is our best central defender according to most. Yet he has received no favours. I'll gladly accept Brendan doesn't rate Ilori, but to bring up his injury issues is a bit convenient and really smacks of conjecture rather than anything else.

So if Sakho and Allen arent being indulged, because neither of them are part of his preferred XI (Id argue thats also the case for Lallana) then how is Ilori being treated any different? Surely if thats the case then Rodgers is being nothing if not consistent?

Sakho/Allen arent relied upon because they cant stay fit and are kept out of our strating XI because of it.

Ilori can't be relied upon to stay fit AND hasn't performed at a decent level previously so not only is he not included in our first team plans but he's also asked to go out somewhere where he can prove those things.

[Fordy]

He didn't chose not to go on tour, he was injured (again) and didn't start training again until 10th Aug.

When did he get injured? At the 21's?

Sure he put on his Twitter that he was at the gym training etc.