Topic: Time to stop and think....

[WelshKopite]

 

Great post, agree entirely.

[exiledinyorkshire]

That's a very good post, and I love how you've linked the style of football to the city's culture, as an OOT, that's something that has really made this club dig deep into my soul.

What I would say though - and I'm not old enough to really remember Kenny's teams, is that under Rafa, especially towards the end of last season but also for phases in the season before, and even at the start of this, we've played the best football I can remember from any Liverpool side I've watched.

Even for pure entertainment and attacking flair, I thought 2nd half of last season was better than Evan's teams at their best, and those teams never had an overall balance, and were far more reliant on individuals than we are - if McManaman was out, or marked out, we simply didn't play well at all.

I don't think Rafa will ever build a Barca or a Dalglish team, but then again Liverpool's football history has been built on pragmatism more than entertainment - when I first really started understanding us commentators would always go on about our 'negativity' in the old days, the back pass, the boring, slow, keeping of possession etc - it wasn't all blinding Wenger ball and 5-0's every week. We ground out battling results with the best of them.

Yes of course you are right, it was never all champagne football and five nils, and i am no misty eyed it was better in the old days kind of person( i know it would seem that way from my two previous posts). We did in the old days often grind out 1-0 wins with late goals. And yes passing across the back four was part of our repetoire. However there is bread and butter football, with a smattering of exceptional highnotes, and then there is workmanlike effeciancy.

I say to you now that a ruthless work ethic is absolutley paramount to any winning side. The old Liverpool sides were always built thus. Not for us a hoddle or an ardiles, a whitside or a brady. No, the foundations layed by Shanks centred around a team ethic. Mine was the era of Paisly the bootroom. Our players only ever really shone as a part of the whole, they became legends and rightly regarded as greats of the game through the merits of the collective. Hard work was the berock of our team, oh but how much more they achieved......................oh the hights they could hit (not always mind) Slow slow quick quick slow, and always with possesion of the ball. The magnificence was often achieved after lengthy periods of boring the otherside to death with keeping hold of the ball. But thats the point, Those teams new that the only point of keeping the ball was to do something with it in the end.

And so back to today, no not today, several years ago when Valencia played us off the park, with the kind of football those that were old enough remebered. Benitez was the manager, and i think we all looked forward to our Valencia. But where is it? Where is our Vincente, our Aimar. We dont really even have a Luis anymore. It feels like Rafa has had a look at the Prem, and thought no...........this is not the place for flair and expansive football, this is where you must battle and work hard. And of course to a degree he is right, the Prem is no place for a team of hoddles or letissiers, not if you want to win the bloody thing. But surely there is a place for a Berdsley a barnes and a houghton.

And one more thing, they may resurface soon enough. Babel made comments early on in his anfield carrer that they hardly did any work with the ball in training. IF thats true is it any wonder that they look so disjointed most of the time. And if thats true one can only assume we will never get the pass and move football that i think we would all love to see again. I do take your point that some of the football was very good at the end of last season. But the end of seasons are funny things, momentum can mean that teams whos hearts have gone can be picked to pieces. Dont expect anybody to think that we will roll over them second half of this season. Teams now quite rightly think that if they match us Physically that we dont have much in the way of slick football to bother them. Are they correct? Maybe maybe not, but they arent bothered by us anymore.

[TheVoiceOfRiise]

I honestly think if he could just stop Carra from hoofing the ball aimlessly upfield 9 times out of 10 then our overall game would look a whole lot more solid.
fair enough in the 'safety first' situations but not all the time please Rafa, Tell him to stop!!, it's hurting my eyes!!!

He'll turn it round, we might have a couple of shaky seasons coming up but we'll get there, I hope Rafa gets the support he's going to need.
This summer is going to be rocky...

[nocturnalvin]

I like your post Exiledinyorkshire.

But believe me, some of the signings made by Rafa shows an attacking intent. Johnson, Degen even, Aquilani, Riera, Aurelio, and now Maxi. Whether he dares to take greater risks is another matter though, i must admit.

[TheVoiceOfRiise]

Teams now quite rightly think that if they match us Physically that we dont have much in the way of slick football to bother them. Are they correct? Maybe maybe not, but they arent bothered by us anymore.

all the more painfully true when you consider Torres and Stevie are sat on the sidelines, watching.
any side would get a boost knowing they don't have to keep tabs on those 2.

[rossipersempre]

But I do have big doubts about whether he can deliver.

I also never express my doubts when I'm with pals who support other teams. On the contrary I stick up for Rafa with old-time religious zeal. Yet....

Yet looking back to 2004 when he came to us from Valencia I know I expected far more.

What I definitely expected was that he would produce a team I really enjoyed watching. And that's the most important thing because I'm in the school of thought which says attractive, attacking teams full of skill and risk are the ones which cradle heaps of silverware at the end of the day.

But Rafa hasn't delivered on that. He's bought some fabulous players and built a great squad. But they have hardly ever been allowed to play to their potential. Over the last 5 years we've played too cautiously, even at Anfield. We haven't kept the ball as well as our rivals and we've resorted to a primitive style of play much quicker than they have when under a bit of duress. And that's unforgiveable when (as was the case last season) you have the greatest striker in the world in your team, the greatest attacking midfielder, the greatest playmaker, and the greatest goalkeeper. In other words the perfect spine, which all the best Liverpool teams have had.

Last season left me with mixed feelings. The experience of Fulham away and the memory of what it was like to really feel 'we're gonna win the league' was precious. But the lack of ambition in autumn and early winter when we topped the league and Man Utd were suffering was pitiful. We played some really bad games in that period and stuck with some really mediocre players. Instead of pulling away like champions we entered matches with the mind-set of runners-up.

And that's been my biggest complaint with Rafa. He has placed a player like Kuyt on some kind of pedestal and made him the symbol of the team. It's as if Shanks had picked out Boersma and said 'this man is on the first team sheet, regardless'. Likewise Rafa has failed to do anything to replace Jamie Carragher when it's as clear as day that he's half the player he was in 2005. Sir Bob would never have done that. Older fans will remember that Emlyn was dropped a year after skippering the side to two successive European Cups. And dropped for a fancy-dan, lanky kid from Ayr Utd or somewhere. A lad who liked to dribble his way out of a defensive melee! But, christ, it didn't half make us play as a team. I'm sure Emlyn wasn't pleased. But top coaches are always ruthless. It's all very well being ruthless to kids (like Babel). But you've got to show your mettle to the veterans too.

I wouldn't trust Hicks and Gillette to pick a successor. I wouldn't join a chorus demanding Rafa's dismissal. I have nothing but scorn for those who show lack of solidarity in public. But I do now find myself wondering what a more ambitious, less fearful manager would do with the great players Rafa has assembled. If we come 5th or 6th or 7th this year I don't know what I'll feel. In a way it's not our final position in the league which matters to me. What matters is that Rafa shows some signs of changing the way we play. If he takes a risk and gets rid of Kuyt, then takes another and starts blooding Kelly alongside Agger, and then takes a third and says Aquilani and Benayoun have chemistry and must be allowed to do damage in the last third, then I'll be one chuffed Red. I'd accept 7th then in the sure knowledge that things will get better in 2010-11. If, on the other hand, we're still sending out players who don't like the ball at their feet, pumping the ball long and retreating behind a 9-man defensive wall when we take the lead, then it's got to be good-bye to Rafa. We'll never, ever win the league playing that kind of stuff.

As ever Yorky, could have written those very words myself. A perfect extrapolation of my own inadequate and fairly lightweight overview a bit earlier. Attack. Risk-averse. Kuyt. Carra. All there wrapped up in a nutshell.

[exiledinyorkshire]

My posts are, on reflection, very negative. Let me add maybe a note of optimism.

Rafa Benitez has won two la liga titles from under the noses of Real and Barcelona. He did that with a Valencia side crammed full of very good players. He has half a side at Livepool at the minute. Give him money to go out and get the other half.

As regards to wingers, he has never had the money to spen 20 mil on one. Aquilani was needed to replace Alonso, Keane as cover for Torres. 40 million cash to buy two attackers and then judge him. When really backed he has bought quality (even Keane).

Given the right backing i still think it is possible for him to create our own Valencia.

And after winning his first title his team were shit only to come and win it again the following season. So expect 85 points again next season.

Fuck the media and their Agenda. A top manager loosing his job at a top club is the stuff of their dreams, it is no wonder they try desparately to make this happen. We know what is acceptable and what is not, Last season was all we could ask for, this season is poor. Next season must be better.

[TipTopKop]

This season needs a time to stop and drink

[horne]

on the reverse of that though yorkie,keegan used to go all out and got found out.great on the eye,and if it was a toss up between me paying me 38 quid and watching a keegan team get beat or a houllier team get beat,give me keegan evry time.
the answer is somewhere between these extremes.strike a balnce.
i think rafa when he has a fully fit squad comes close to this.first half seems to be too cautious for the eye,but maybe common sense .
keep it tight and try and take the odd chance.wear them out.work them a bit.
second half,push on more.60 70 minutes,when the oppo stop closing yer down quickly and give that bit more space,get the flare on.attack.kill them off when they are tiring.
i think on paper this does work but executing it is the problem this season.
i scratch me head sometimes trying to work out how we massacred teams like real madrid and the mancs to name two.
i think its all down to taking yer chances and not wasting them.be more clinical in front of goal.too many hairy fairy passes on the edge instead of just hitting the target.pepper the goal.
get that first goal and hope they open up enough at the back to give yer more space,whilst they are trying to get back in it.
its at that point i think we dont take enough advantage.we seem to sit back to much.reason being we cant keep posession for long periods.that for me is a big point.possession for us has been poor. keep hold of it,play it around aka valencia/barca and pick them off.
too many of our players have been poor with the basics.voronin,babbel,doss,ngog even(although hes young and has been taking it a bit it off the defenders of late)....
better players are coming in i think and just wish i   could roll the season forward a few months to see how they gel.

[Shaded Red]

And one more thing, they may resurface soon enough. Babel made comments early on in his anfield carrer that they hardly did any work with the ball in training. IF thats true is it any wonder that they look so disjointed most of the time. And if thats true one can only assume we will never get the pass and move football that i think we would all love to see again. I do take your point that some of the football was very good at the end of last season. But the end of seasons are funny things, momentum can mean that teams whos hearts have gone can be picked to pieces. Dont expect anybody to think that we will roll over them second half of this season. Teams now quite rightly think that if they match us Physically that we dont have much in the way of slick football to bother them. Are they correct? Maybe maybe not, but they arent bothered by us anymore.

Thinks that not right - I remember reading an interview somewhere that says when Rafa took over - everything in training has to be done with the ball.

I don't think Rafa's ordered the team to hoof the ball - once they cross that white line, the players are the ones who have to perform. They may know what to do...but when confidence's shot, form is gone and faced with lots of physical pressure, they may end up hoofing.

[Stan.]

To be fair though db, I take your point, but a couple of things:

1) He took over from Houllier, a squad built very much for one type of football, not based on quick one touch stuff, with our star player having his formative years in a very different kind of game.

2) Over the years, and it has been slow, that's fair - we have moved more in that direction, wouldn't you agree?

3) Look at the players Rafa's signed in recent years. They might not all have been successful, but on paper:

Maxi, Aquilani, Johnson, Keane, Dossenna, even Voronin and Degen, are players who play one touch stuff, or try to, or come from cultures and teams that are known for possession football. As I say, some might have really failed, but to me they all look like players we're buying to get more of that technical ability in the team and squad.

So it's not like he took over Houllier's side and bought big, tough players to batter opponents, his first signings were Garcia and Alonso - by and large he has been trying to move us that direction, but it's been bit by bit, and it's had to be - he's never been able to just inject a massive load of cash all at once to buy 5 or 6 top class technical players, as the likes of City have done, or tried to do.

But to me that's exactly the issue.  Technically the squad has improved dramatically, but the football hasn't.  I can understand Rafa playing to our strengths with Houllier's squad.  The CL semi at Anfield in 2005 against Chelsea epitomised the 'backs to the wall' dogged determination that helped us overcome far superior opposition. 

Since then, I concur we have become more capable at competing at that level rather then just defending (in fact some of our best football has come against the likes of Inter, Utd and Real) but despite this, 5 years on we're still struggling to break down even the most average of premiership sides. 

Last season our defensive superiority masked these short-comings, but as yorky suggests there was an uneasy feeling about the way we were playing.

Last season left me with mixed feelings. The experience of Fulham away and the memory of what it was like to really feel 'we're gonna win the league' was precious. But the lack of ambition in autumn and early winter when we topped the league and Man Utd were suffering was pitiful. We played some really bad games in that period and stuck with some really mediocre players. Instead of pulling away like champions we entered matches with the mind-set of runners-up.

This season, Hull City aside (who on the day were playing at a level so far below the premiership, I doubt they'd have beaten a league one side), we're still not putting far inferior sides to the sword, but the difference is, we're now letting them in at the other end.  As soon as our defensive form dropped we got found out.  With the players we have and the time Rafa's had, that really has to change and fast, because we're not in the top 4 by default anymore.

[RyanBabel19]

This is a very decent thread and an excellent opening post. I wouldn't expect anything less from Fat Scouser.

It's a hard thing for a Liverpool supporter to think what it might be like if your manager was sacked. We have a proud history of not sacking managers and an even prouder one of getting behind the boss in times of difficulty. We know about long-term planning because our greatest victories have been the direct result of it. So to even imagine a future without Rafa at the helm seems like an act of spinelessness, even of treachery. It's especially difficult when it's Rafael Benitez you're talking about. The man clearly adores Liverpool and sees this job as the most important of his life. He understands the culture of the club completely and the nature of the people who follow it. And he knows what it would mean to us all to rebutter the bread.

But I do have big doubts about whether he can deliver. These are not brought on by watching Sky tv (I don't have it and like most people tune out anyway when I hear half-time studio chat). I never listen to the football radio programmes, and never have done. I've stopped reading the daily papers (you don't miss them after a while), and I don't even read links on RAWK that say Whelan or McMahon want Rafa out (I prefer to think of these men as great players and not stupid pundits). I also never express my doubts when I'm with pals who support other teams. On the contrary I stick up for Rafa with old-time religious zeal. Yet....

Yet looking back to 2004 when he came to us from Valencia I know I expected far more. Istanbul was the greatest victory of all time - and Rafa will remain beloved even if he achieves nothing more at Liverpool. And of course no one had the right to 'expect' Istanbul. I'm not even sure I 'expected' the fella to win us the league in his first 5 seasons. I may have done, but that's not important. What I definitely expected was that he would produce a team I really enjoyed watching. And that's the most important thing because I'm in the school of thought which says attractive, attacking teams full of skill and risk are the ones which cradle heaps of silverware at the end of the day.

But Rafa hasn't delivered on that. He's bought some fabulous players and built a great squad. But they have hardly ever been allowed to play to their potential. Over the last 5 years we've played too cautiously, even at Anfield. We haven't kept the ball as well as our rivals and we've resorted to a primitive style of play much quicker than they have when under a bit of duress. And that's unforgiveable when (as was the case last season) you have the greatest striker in the world in your team, the greatest attacking midfielder, the greatest playmaker, and the greatest goalkeeper. In other words the perfect spine, which all the best Liverpool teams have had.

Last season left me with mixed feelings. The experience of Fulham away and the memory of what it was like to really feel 'we're gonna win the league' was precious. But the lack of ambition in autumn and early winter when we topped the league and Man Utd were suffering was pitiful. We played some really bad games in that period and stuck with some really mediocre players. Instead of pulling away like champions we entered matches with the mind-set of runners-up.

And that's been my biggest complaint with Rafa. He has placed a player like Kuyt on some kind of pedestal and made him the symbol of the team. It's as if Shanks had picked out Boersma and said 'this man is on the first team sheet, regardless'. Likewise Rafa has failed to do anything to replace Jamie Carragher when it's as clear as day that he's half the player he was in 2005. Sir Bob would never have done that. Older fans will remember that Emlyn was dropped a year after skippering the side to two successive European Cups. And dropped for a fancy-dan, lanky kid from Ayr Utd or somewhere. A lad who liked to dribble his way out of a defensive melee! But, christ, it didn't half make us play as a team. I'm sure Emlyn wasn't pleased. But top coaches are always ruthless. It's all very well being ruthless to kids (like Babel). But you've got to show your mettle to the veterans too.

I wouldn't trust Hicks and Gillette to pick a successor. I wouldn't join a chorus demanding Rafa's dismissal. I have nothing but scorn for those who show lack of solidarity in public. But I do now find myself wondering what a more ambitious, less fearful manager would do with the great players Rafa has assembled. If we come 5th or 6th or 7th this year I don't know what I'll feel. In a way it's not our final position in the league which matters to me. What matters is that Rafa shows some signs of changing the way we play. If he takes a risk and gets rid of Kuyt, then takes another and starts blooding Kelly alongside Agger, and then takes a third and says Aquilani and Benayoun have chemistry and must be allowed to do damage in the last third, then I'll be one chuffed Red. I'd accept 7th then in the sure knowledge that things will get better in 2010-11. If, on the other hand, we're still sending out players who don't like the ball at their feet, pumping the ball long and retreating behind a 9-man defensive wall when we take the lead, then it's got to be good-bye to Rafa. We'll never, ever win the league playing that kind of stuff.




 

Fantastic post.

[horne]

i would like to see more shots on sight early doors.get that first goal and try the tippy tappy stuff when the gaping holes appear at the back later on.
the front players have to keep pressuring the back four more. dont let them settle.
want to see ngog getting stuck in to them like kuyt does.it all makes a difference.
tottenham can play if you let them.they have to be rattled all over the park like stoke does to teams.
there is no reason why good quality players that liverpool have cant mix it a bit as well.
all the successfull teams for as long as i can remember do this.
united can play,but they make it hard for yer too.arsenal of old would kick yer off the park.they would make it unpleasant.leeds of old,liverpool of old.that is missing for me too

[rossipersempre]

They may know what to do...but when confidence's shot, form is gone and faced with lots of physical pressure, they may end up hoofing.

Hoofing in defence is one thing, but it's fucking excruciating when forced to watch that deadly combo of Kuyt and Carragher show all the quality of 40-something Sunday league pub players trying to unpick the Reading defence down the right flank. Yet sure as night follows day, those two will be the first names on the teamsheet on Wednesday night.

[KiNki]

Yet looking back to 2004 when he came to us from Valencia I know I expected far more....What I definitely expected was that he would produce a team I really enjoyed watching. And that's the most important thing because I'm in the school of thought which says attractive, attacking teams full of skill and risk are the ones which cradle heaps of silverware at the end of the day.

But Rafa hasn't delivered on that.

i agree with all of your post but i'll quote this bit.   This is the most disapointing aspect of rafa's management of lfc.   I watched his valancia side in the that pre season game at anfield and they out passed and out classed our side.  We couldnt get near them.  Their team wasn't filled with big names with big price tags yet they still produced outstanding football.   Nor did they overly concerned about the potential threat posed by our better players, rafa's valencia seem thoroughly engrossed in their own game. 

When rafa was first mentioned as a potential candidate to take over from houllier i was delighted cos all of the above is what i hoped to see emulated at anfield. 

I havent seen it.

The media vultures smell blood now and there is so much pressure on rafa i suspect he'll err on the side of caution which might be his ultimate undoing.   

[exiledinyorkshire]

I like your post Exiledinyorkshire.

But believe me, some of the signings made by Rafa shows an attacking intent. Johnson, Degen even, Aquilani, Riera, Aurelio, and now Maxi. Whether he dares to take greater risks is another matter though, i must admit.

I agree the attacking fullback approach is designed to give us width, to stretch the play against sides who come and sit it out at anfield. It hasnt worked though. All it has served to do is weaken us as a defensive unit. Its a positive move but its not working.

For what its worth and i have said it before, play with two teams if you like. a 6 and a 4. Make every single one of your six a defensive workman who doesnt like really to motor forward( they can be technically good though), just make sure that your four are all of the quality of Gerrard and Torres. Let the attacking four get on and do what they do, defend with your six. But we have more often than not an 8 and a 2. Its just a bit too cautious fro the likes of Stoke in my opinion.

[rossipersempre]

i agree with all of your post but i'll quote this bit.   This is the most disapointing aspect of rafa's management of lfc.   I watched his valancia side in the that pre season game at anfield and they out passed and out classed our side.  We couldnt get near them.  Their team wasn't filled with big names with big price tags yet they still produced outstanding football.   Nor did they overly concerned about the potential threat posed by our better players, rafa's valencia seem thoroughly engrossed in their own game. 

When rafa was first mentioned as a potential candidate to take over from houllier i was delighted cos all of the above is what i hoped to see emulated at anfield. 

I havent seen it.

The media vultures smell blood now and there is so much pressure on rafa i suspect he'll err on the side of caution which might be his ultimate undoing.   

Thing is though is that Valencia side you saw was at its peak. The first year Los Che won La Liga they did so by grinding out results, controlling the game and proving difficult to beat. Not pretty to watch but effective. Rafa built on that, and it was only in the year of the second title, that they began playing some impressive football, as they showed at Anfield. For all the talk about "Livencia" IMO Rafa has never really applied that blueprint at Anfield, not that I'm saying he should - too many different variables and contrasts.

The key here is willingness to change, shake things up, throw off the shackles of control-freakery and risk-aversion, and let the team loose, their confidence soar. And therein lies the core of my problem with him. I can even date back the exact time my heart sank about Rafa's long-term potential. No not signing Kuyt in 2006 but post-match Athens, the anti-Istanbul in every way. Milan were there for the taking, it was obvious, but employing some inexplicable and ultimately fatal tactics, Rafa preferred to have a rant about funds and needing to buy better players. Not wrong, but entirely inappropriate at the the time. It gave me cause for concern then, and  that has only deepened over the last couple of seasons, wasted opportunities and ill-judged decisions both on the pitch and in the transfer market. Like a mid-life managerial crisis of sorts.

I still hold out hope he can turn it around, not just out of sentiment, but because I believe he has it in him to become one of the greats, spoken about in reverential tones years from now. But by "turning it around" I mean his approach, as opposed to mere results and points (the latter will follow the former anyway I feel), but agree the current situation may have cause him to become even further entrenched. Ultimately if he has to go, then he has to go. But my gut feeling says not like this. Not now.

[PanchDeBurca]

This is a very decent thread and an excellent opening post. I wouldn't expect anything less from Fat Scouser.

It's a hard thing for a Liverpool supporter to think what it might be like if your manager was sacked. We have a proud history of not sacking managers and an even prouder one of getting behind the boss in times of difficulty. We know about long-term planning because our greatest victories have been the direct result of it. So to even imagine a future without Rafa at the helm seems like an act of spinelessness, even of treachery. It's especially difficult when it's Rafael Benitez you're talking about. The man clearly adores Liverpool and sees this job as the most important of his life. He understands the culture of the club completely and the nature of the people who follow it. And he knows what it would mean to us all to rebutter the bread.

But I do have big doubts about whether he can deliver. These are not brought on by watching Sky tv (I don't have it and like most people tune out anyway when I hear half-time studio chat). I never listen to the football radio programmes, and never have done. I've stopped reading the daily papers (you don't miss them after a while), and I don't even read links on RAWK that say Whelan or McMahon want Rafa out (I prefer to think of these men as great players and not stupid pundits). I also never express my doubts when I'm with pals who support other teams. On the contrary I stick up for Rafa with old-time religious zeal. Yet....

Yet looking back to 2004 when he came to us from Valencia I know I expected far more. Istanbul was the greatest victory of all time - and Rafa will remain beloved even if he achieves nothing more at Liverpool. And of course no one had the right to 'expect' Istanbul. I'm not even sure I 'expected' the fella to win us the league in his first 5 seasons. I may have done, but that's not important. What I definitely expected was that he would produce a team I really enjoyed watching. And that's the most important thing because I'm in the school of thought which says attractive, attacking teams full of skill and risk are the ones which cradle heaps of silverware at the end of the day.

But Rafa hasn't delivered on that. He's bought some fabulous players and built a great squad. But they have hardly ever been allowed to play to their potential. Over the last 5 years we've played too cautiously, even at Anfield. We haven't kept the ball as well as our rivals and we've resorted to a primitive style of play much quicker than they have when under a bit of duress. And that's unforgiveable when (as was the case last season) you have the greatest striker in the world in your team, the greatest attacking midfielder, the greatest playmaker, and the greatest goalkeeper. In other words the perfect spine, which all the best Liverpool teams have had.

Last season left me with mixed feelings. The experience of Fulham away and the memory of what it was like to really feel 'we're gonna win the league' was precious. But the lack of ambition in autumn and early winter when we topped the league and Man Utd were suffering was pitiful. We played some really bad games in that period and stuck with some really mediocre players. Instead of pulling away like champions we entered matches with the mind-set of runners-up.

And that's been my biggest complaint with Rafa. He has placed a player like Kuyt on some kind of pedestal and made him the symbol of the team. It's as if Shanks had picked out Boersma and said 'this man is on the first team sheet, regardless'. Likewise Rafa has failed to do anything to replace Jamie Carragher when it's as clear as day that he's half the player he was in 2005. Sir Bob would never have done that. Older fans will remember that Emlyn was dropped a year after skippering the side to two successive European Cups. And dropped for a fancy-dan, lanky kid from Ayr Utd or somewhere. A lad who liked to dribble his way out of a defensive melee! But, christ, it didn't half make us play as a team. I'm sure Emlyn wasn't pleased. But top coaches are always ruthless. It's all very well being ruthless to kids (like Babel). But you've got to show your mettle to the veterans too.

I wouldn't trust Hicks and Gillette to pick a successor. I wouldn't join a chorus demanding Rafa's dismissal. I have nothing but scorn for those who show lack of solidarity in public. But I do now find myself wondering what a more ambitious, less fearful manager would do with the great players Rafa has assembled. If we come 5th or 6th or 7th this year I don't know what I'll feel. In a way it's not our final position in the league which matters to me. What matters is that Rafa shows some signs of changing the way we play. If he takes a risk and gets rid of Kuyt, then takes another and starts blooding Kelly alongside Agger, and then takes a third and says Aquilani and Benayoun have chemistry and must be allowed to do damage in the last third, then I'll be one chuffed Red. I'd accept 7th then in the sure knowledge that things will get better in 2010-11. If, on the other hand, we're still sending out players who don't like the ball at their feet, pumping the ball long and retreating behind a 9-man defensive wall when we take the lead, then it's got to be good-bye to Rafa. We'll never, ever win the league playing that kind of stuff.




 

You know RAWK should have a poster of the years glitzy awards ceremony and hand out bobble head Rafa's for the top posts and posters of the year, if that was the case then i would be of the opinion that yorkykopite would wipe the floor as yet again you have written another excellent post and manage to put into words exactly how i feel

[Old No7]

Lots of great points on this thread for & against Rafa.

For the first time since Rafa arrived i no longer enjoy watching us play. Not that we have been any worse than say in rafa's 1st season, but that wasn't his side and then you watch with the hope of what a new mnager might bring.

Whatever you might say about the limitations out on Rafa by the board in terms of transfers, this is very much his side, he has shaped the squad, and whilst he may have not had all the funds he might have wanted, it is still an expensively assembled squad (5th most according to Tompkins). So yes i am very disappointed with how this season has gone and i do not buy into the argument that nobody else could do a better job.

However Rafa should certainly be given the rest of the season before any judgements are made.

I do keep asking myself, and would love to know what others think, should he be held to his gaurantee of a top 4 finish?

[Stan.]

i agree with all of your post but i'll quote this bit.   This is the most disapointing aspect of rafa's management of lfc.   I watched his valancia side in the that pre season game at anfield and they out passed and out classed our side.  We couldnt get near them.  Their team wasn't filled with big names with big price tags yet they still produced outstanding football.   Nor did they overly concerned about the potential threat posed by our better players, rafa's valencia seem thoroughly engrossed in their own game. 

When rafa was first mentioned as a potential candidate to take over from houllier i was delighted cos all of the above is what i hoped to see emulated at anfield. 

I havent seen it.

The media vultures smell blood now and there is so much pressure on rafa i suspect he'll err on the side of caution which might be his ultimate undoing.   

I agree totally.  Not only have we 'not seen it', we've rarely seen anything even close.  In all fairness he inherited a very good squad at Valencia and a fairly average one here, but 6 years on you would expect a side to at least be consistently playing the type of football the manager has implemented whether it's successful or not. 

Added to that the fact we now clearly have the 'quality' of players to compete at the very top, either Rafa has failed to get them playing how he likes, or he has completely sacrificed any intelligent movement and creativity and chosen to focus almost entirely on 'not losing' rather than winning.

Week-in-week-out our performances remind me of a cup side cobbled together out of youngsters and ressies who've never played together before;  'good' players with no idea of each others movement who look painfully awkward in possession. 

I reiterate, I dont want him gone at all cost, but the players aren't the only ones who need to seriously up their game. 

[Markus/GER]

I personally don't buy the argument, that Liverpool - due to restricted financial resources and the owner problems - would not be able to find a top replacement for Rafa in case he left. At the very least, nobody would throw the chance to manage Liverpool FC away lightly. If the new man fails, he'll always be able to blame the difficult circumstances, on the other side he has everything to win.

I do believe that Rafa is a first-class manager, but I also believe that he won't deliver the league titel with his general managing approach. In a more balanced Spanish league he won both titles by loosing the fewest games. There still where a considerable amount of draws though, just like we experienced last season. The points tally he achieved were 77 and 75 (in 38 games). He basically won the title by turning losses that other clubs suffered into draws. It's same tactical approach that made Liverpool such a force in Europe under Rafa.

In a more unbalanced league like the Premier League such a points tally is very unlikely to win you the title, even 86 were not enough last year, as we painfully found out. Rafa's tactical approach just does not work in England, where it would work wonders in a league like the Bundesliga for example.

So while acknowledging Rafa's managing ability, I am convinced that he will never deliver the title for us. Thats why I would be tempted to give another manager a try.

It might well be, that he would do a lot worse but I can't see the point in keeping a manager, that I believe will deliver a league finish between 2nd and 4th every year constantly, but never win the league actually. See my point? Liverpool FC does not exist to come 2nd or worse. If you are sure you can't win the league with a manager he just needs to be replaced ...

If Juventus or any other major european club comes in and wants Rafa to take over, it might be in the best interest of him and the club. Especially since in order to work for any other club, he can't expect to receive a huge compensation fee anyway.

[niallo27]

I personally don't buy the argument, that Liverpool - due to restricted financial resources and the owner problems - would not be able to find a top replacement for Rafa in case he left. At the very least, nobody would throw the chance to manage Liverpool FC away lightly. If the new man fails, he'll always be able to blame the difficult circumstances, on the other side he has everything to win.

I do believe that Rafa is a first-class manager, but I also believe that he won't deliver the league titel with his general managing approach. In a more balanced Spanish league he won both titles by loosing the fewest games. There still where a considerable amount of draws though, just like we experienced last season. The points tally he achieved were 77 and 75 (in 38 games). He basically won the title by turning losses that other clubs suffered into draws. It's same tactical approach that made Liverpool such a force in Europe under Rafa.

In a more unbalanced league like the Premier League such a points tally is very unlikely to win you the title, even 86 were not enough last year, as we painfully found out. Rafa's tactical approach just does not work in England, where it would work wonders in a league like the Bundesliga for example.

So while acknowledging Rafa's managing ability, I am convinced that he will never deliver the title for us. Thats why I would be tempted to give another manager a try.

It might well be, that he would do a lot worse but I can't see the point in keeping a manager, that I believe will deliver a league finish between 2nd and 4th every year constantly, but never win the league actually. See my point? Liverpool FC does not exist to come 2nd or worse. If you are sure you can't win the league with a manager he just needs to be replaced ...

If Juventus or any other major european club comes in and wants Rafa to take over, it might be in the best interest of him and the club. Especially since in order to work for any other club, he can't expect to receive a huge compensation fee anyway.

A new manager would have nothing to lose, well that is until he doesnt win the title in the first year and you'll probaly be on here calling for his head, are you saying its ok for a new manager to blame restricted financial resources but its not ok for Rafa to do it, your saying its ok for the new manger to fail but yet you then say "If you are sure you can't win the league with a manager he just needs to be replaced"
What your saying is pure shite, and 86pts would have won a lot of leagues

[Markus/GER]

A new manager would have nothing to lose, well that is until he doesnt win the title in the first year and you'll probaly be on here calling for his head, are you saying its ok for a new manager to blame restricted financial resources but its not ok for Rafa to do it, your saying its ok for the new manger to fail but yet you then say "If you are sure you can't win the league with a manager he just needs to be replaced"
What your saying is pure shite, and 86pts would have won a lot of leagues

Every manager needs to be given time. And Rafa can very well blame the lack of funds, why not? What I am saying though is, that Rafa's principle managing idea, which is not too loose games, will not win us the title ... it will just give us a high finish in the table every year and good success in Europe.

You can now say: Well, we couldn't ask for more given our financial problems and you good be damn right. But the danger then is to indirectly accept that Liverpool will not be title contenders ...

Btw: While quite ironically 86 points will likely win you the league this year, the last time 86 were enough was in 2003, 6 years ago. I don't think anybody can seriously disagree that the Premier League has become more and more unbalanced over the last 5 years with all the money at Chelsea and Man City and the huge earnings England's top clubs can earn in Europe and through world-wide marketing. Therefore I believe we need a manager that is brutally aggressive in trying to actually win as much as games as possible ... it's a question of mentality really.

[Cid]

I suppose it all boils down to whether you think this is a simple run of poor form or whether you believe it is a bunch of long-held problems coming together to bite us in the arse.  It's entirely possible we're headed for mid table mediocrity if we keep Rafa....City is on the rise and whether this season is a blip or not, next season will be incredibly hard.

For me, as our budget is limited we would do better with a man manager...we need somebody who can get the best out of players who have failed to fire elsewhere, or find gems at bargain prices, Rafa has never been that guy.  I also have real doubts about his training methods...many players have come out and said that at Liverpool under Rafa they receive no guidance or instruction on attacking, and that just isnt right.

I think he has developed blind spots for certain players.  Does lucas deserve to be an automatic first choice above Aquilani?  Does Kuyt deserve a guaranteed spot in the team when we have talented alternatives like Maxi, Ngog and Benayoun?  I hate to see favouritism at work as a fan, I can only imagine how much it hurts the morale of the squad.

The bottom line for me is he isnt getting the best out of the players at his disposal.  If he gets some money in the summer I'd like him to stay and have a real go at it...prove that this season was just bad luck...but if he has his hands tied again, I think we need to seriously think about getting somebody in who will do a better job with the resources at hand.

[kkhaku]

Okay first of all - the big picture.

Competing against Chelsea for the league - and City for a top 4 position, means competing against teams with MUCH deeper pockets than our own. These teams both have good managers who have the ability to use the finances to their advantage, as well as use an already assembled (and expensive) squad to win games. Then you have two other teams in United and Arsenal that have extremely experienced managers, and and almost blind backing by their boards, as well as financial resources available that we can't compete with. So right there, you are going to need one of the top few managers in the world to compete with those teams without the necassary finances and backing from the board. Those who want Rafa out therefore, must trust G&H to choose a replacement that's capable of such a challenge. That in itself is a big ask of any supporter.

The small(er) picture:

This season's failings have been caused by a number of factors. Other than pure luck (beachball incedent) and the injuries (which unless you put down to poor warmup routines or something), almost all these factors can be blamed on Rafa - which gives the supporters who want Rafa out a firm leg to stand on. He hasn't been able to shore up our defense, he hasn't replaced the influence of Alonso, he hasn't found a successful backup (or strike partner) for Torres, etc etc. Of course all these failures can be blamed on circumstance such as financial constraints and the form of certain players, injuries to those around them etc etc - but ultimately the job of fighting through these circumstances falls to the manager - and to quite honest he hasn't been doing a good job of it.

Like most supporters, I feel he should get to the end of the season. A decent Europa league run and achieving 4th place will make a wonder of difference. If this doesn't happen however, then I think there needs to be a reassessment of whether we are headed in the right direction under Rafa. If those objectives aren't achieved and the form of the team is still in the state it has been for most of the season (injuries or no injuries) - well then I think it's definitely worth a look to see if a capable manager is available and willing to take on the job. If someone like Hiddink or Lippi is available - then the possibility should be considered. Rafa has earned some immunity in my eyes, but not enough to get away with a full season of disappointment with absolutely no bright side.

[keyo]

I received an email of a mate recently, basically pissed off about current situation and having to get it out in some way.  Have to say, it sums is it up more or less for me: -

Right. I've had enough of this. You will not be surprised that I've got a cob on about something or other, but this is doing my f+++ing head in now.
 
Cards on the table - Benitez has been poor since the end of last season. The awful start against Spurs was all too predictable because we'd been awful all pre-season and seemed dreadfully underprepared. Results have been too consistently poor to blame on bad luck and injuries. Those players should still be doing much better than they are. He deserves criticism for his management in the last 7 months, but the excellent job he'd done in the preceding 5 years means he should be allowed the opportunity to put it right by getting to the end of the season as a minimum.
 
Now to the bit which has been properly peeing me off - and for a very long time.
 
Ever since the Villa home game the knives have been right out and firmly thrust in his back. Sky have led the way with an almost daily series of speculative "reports" on SSN about the latest "crisis" that Benitez faces. Every single pre and post match interview has consisted of Sky, ESPN and ITV getting their reporter to ask a series of ridiculously aggressive and accusatory questions - astonishing when you consider how 99.9% of their interviews are no more than "Are you a little disappointed by that 10-0 home defeat, Harry?" (Sky pre match v Stoke, "Aquilani is on the bench today, Rafa, why isn't a player you paid £20m for starting every game?". Their Sunday Supplement show (Hold The Back Page for old skool Sky-ers like Keogh) has turned into a weekly witch-hunt with the assembled geniuses of the press almost coming to blows in their eagerness to tear him to pieces on telly. They then join their brethren back in Fleet Street and Wapping to compose the pages that form the daily press attack on him too. It's relentless. Every day for months. Absolutely relentless and you know they won't stop until they get him. As much as they'll publicly state that managers get themselves fired through results, the people at Sky and the writers in the press glory in the ability they have to get someone dismissed. They f+++ing love it. Doesn't matter that most of the stuff they say isn't factually correct - if a lie is repeated a thousand times it becomes accepted as the truth.
 
But it's not necessarily this that pees me off. Benitez is not the first manager of an important team to receive this type of treatment during a bad run - the difference here is that he gets similar treatment during good runs too. In fact, he's had it since he started in 2004. All through his entire Liverpool managerial career he's had so much sniping from Sky and the national press. From "zonal-marking" to "poor transfer record" to "net-spend" they've been all over him. His achievements are glossed over as lucky or just plain not good enough. I could list any number of examples but they just wind me up even more as I think of them (example: 3 years ago he was getting slaughtered for his "mediocre buys" like Crouch and Bellamy - now he gets slaughtered for not keeping them!!). That's the bit that pees me off. It's nothing to do with his managerial record (better than Wenger who had a team that had won the league undefeated when Benitez started) - it's personal and fuelled by the rampant egotism of those individuals at Sky and in the sports press who believe they can hound a manager out of my club - my f+++ing club - regardless of what he does just because they want it to be so. I'm not having it.
 
It's crap at the moment. Bitterly disappointing after last season. But I'm not joining in with the backstabbers. I want Benitez to stay regardless of what happens on the pitch. I'm not bothered if we end up avoiding relegation by a thread - just as long as we don't sack him this season. I don't care as long as my club has the b+lls to ignore the clamour of the countless number of vultures desperate to see us sack him, desperate to see us in crisis, desperate to see us fail.
 
This is now more than just a pro or anti Benitez issue - this is about how my club behaves and what it stands for.  Managers and players will come and go - the club is what remains in place and what matters to me. I'd rather we show the b+lls to do things OUR way and play in League 2 rather than cave in and do what those bell+nds tell us we "have to do for the sake the club".
 
No chance. When we want your opinion, we'll ask for it. In the meantime you can f++k right off.
 
 
 
 
 
Well I'm not having it. They can kiss my ring.

I did add as a follow up this: -

Have to say that basically I agree with pretty much all of the points made.  The most disappointing aspect of the current “witch hunt” is the eagerness with which the likes of Murphy, Whelan and St John have signed up to put the boot in.  Well, Whelan has been peddling his agenda for a few years now, and St. John has always been bitter......but that doesn’t excuse them.  I don’t agree with abusing ex-players or their opinion, however, it has come to the point where those ex-players also need to think about what the club stands for and remember that it was their privilege to get to wear the red shirt.  They always received support when it was needed despite not being the most popular players at the club (I remember that sole “Ronnie Whelan” chanting bloke in the Kop before each home game), and now is the time for them to side with the club and not the media and respect the values the club used to represent.

The only other thing I would add, is that far too many “fans” are happy to repeat those Sly/Fleet Street “truths” as they argue for Benitez’ removal.  This again is something abhorrent in the modern game.  Even those who can make a genuine case for Benitez to go must see that the media agenda is more of an affront to LFC than anything Benitez can do.

And the summary of the season is about right.  We have had some poor luck, but as the saying goes you make your own luck in football.  We have been poor, and Benitez does carry the bulk of the responsibility for that along with the senior players.  And he does make himself an easy target for the media at times.  However, his record at Liverpool – particularly give the restrictions placed on him by cash flow requirements and inept boardroom management – and his previous record of both success and learning and recovering from managerial failures warrant the man being given some latitude (much as Wenger has been at Arsenal).

We are not the same as other clubs, despite the changing world.  We are a club with principles (well the fans are anyway) and we should stand by them.  Seems the right place to post this.

[The G in Gerrard]

Superb OP and it is right, losing this man would set the club back a number of years and the other top coaches the likes of Mourinho, Hiddink etc would not be willing to join our current shambles....

[Fairytale of 2005]

Like many others have stated and Yorky put into words so well, I don't want him to leave at this moment in time. I like Rafa and I understand he has been dealt a shitty hand. However there are a number of areas for concern. I don't believe the club would be doomed without him, but I do think that more uncertainty and change would probably be a bad thing.

[FlashingBlade]

There is something very seriously wrong at our club at the moment, and like I said in the Hansen thread, every single person at the club from top to fucking bottom needs to take a good fucking look at themselves, roll their fucking sleeves up and FIGHT for our great club.
Those red shirts don't play on their own, it's down to the players wearing them red shirts.

Im with Terry on this , but with one fucking depressing caveate....maybe the people who we want to look at  themselves and 'fight for the club ' might very well be doing that..the sad thing is their best simply isnt good enough....this is it!


My Opinon is simple....I havent got a fucking clue where we are going to end up...after going to the games since the sixties and experiancing all the ups and downs and pretty much a having an opinon on everything....Im spent...Rafa?..I just dont know anymore...when things were tough in the past my head and heart told me we would always come good...other than 'Faith' ( a word I detest by fans ,Im not into unquestionble devotion... to me its denies the requirment of intellgience.)..I want to know exactly what are we supposed to hang our hopes on....cos it aint the fucking performances on the pitch..and despite the rhetoric on sites like this.. thats the only place that matters!!

[tadders]

Its academic though - even if we wanted to he would have to walk, and I don't see him doing that. If he goes he goes. The yanks dont give a fuck, so we have a board that is just pointless to be honest. Moores must be so proud.
Purslow wont be able to doing anything of any note. Rafa just needs to start winning some games get us on a roll for fuck's sake.

[Fat Scouser]

Im with Terry on this , but with one fucking depressing caveate....maybe the people who we want to look at  themselves and 'fight for the club ' might very well be doing that..the sad thing is their best simply isnt good enough....this is it!


My Opinon is simple....I havent got a fucking clue where we are going to end up...after going to the games since the sixties and experiancing all the ups and downs and pretty much a having an opinon on everything....Im spent...Rafa?..I just dont know anymore...when things were tough in the past my head and heart told me we would always come good...other than 'Faith' ( a word I detest by fans ,Im not into unquestionble devotion... to me its denies the requirment of intellgience.)..I want to know exactly what are we supposed to hang our hopes on....cos it aint the fucking performances on the pitch..and despite the rhetoric on sites like this.. thats the only place that matters!!

I agree with that 99.99%. The only thing I'd say is... they are good enough. And if we ever got something like our full 11 on the field in something resembling a full state of fitness, we'd be whacking the likes of Wolves and a match for any of the top teams. And that's where all the problems stem from...

The slow start, injuries and sheer bad luck have led to a complete lack of confidence. And the likes of Mick McCarthy then send their teams out like a pack of hyenas after a wounded sheep. Each set back compounds it, and I see no answer until we have a fully fit team because from now until the end of the season every team we play will set about us in the same way.

Get Torres, Gerrard, Yossi, Johnson and Agger back on the pitch along with a fully fit Masch and Aquilani (It's time to set this lad loose) and we'll start knocking some results together. But the longer this goes on, the more the rest will allow their heads to drop.

Other than that, I have no answers. But I know one thing.... sacking Rafa isn't the solution. And the hysterical amongst us should think back a little to how we was before the man arrived, because if he walks or is pushed, and the club is left solely in the hands of H&G.... this period could soon be getting screamed about on here as the good old days.

[Jookie]

I
Right. I've had enough of this. You will not be surprised that I've got a cob on about something or other, but this is doing my f+++ing head in now.
 
Cards on the table - Benitez has been poor since the end of last season. The awful start against Spurs was all too predictable because we'd been awful all pre-season and seemed dreadfully underprepared. Results have been too consistently poor to blame on bad luck and injuries. Those players should still be doing much better than they are. He deserves criticism for his management in the last 7 months, but the excellent job he'd done in the preceding 5 years means he should be allowed the opportunity to put it right by getting to the end of the season as a minimum.
 
Now to the bit which has been properly peeing me off - and for a very long time.
 
Ever since the Villa home game the knives have been right out and firmly thrust in his back. Sky have led the way with an almost daily series of speculative "reports" on SSN about the latest "crisis" that Benitez faces. Every single pre and post match interview has consisted of Sky, ESPN and ITV getting their reporter to ask a series of ridiculously aggressive and accusatory questions - astonishing when you consider how 99.9% of their interviews are no more than "Are you a little disappointed by that 10-0 home defeat, Harry?" (Sky pre match v Stoke, "Aquilani is on the bench today, Rafa, why isn't a player you paid £20m for starting every game?". Their Sunday Supplement show (Hold The Back Page for old skool Sky-ers like Keogh) has turned into a weekly witch-hunt with the assembled geniuses of the press almost coming to blows in their eagerness to tear him to pieces on telly. They then join their brethren back in Fleet Street and Wapping to compose the pages that form the daily press attack on him too. It's relentless. Every day for months. Absolutely relentless and you know they won't stop until they get him. As much as they'll publicly state that managers get themselves fired through results, the people at Sky and the writers in the press glory in the ability they have to get someone dismissed. They f+++ing love it. Doesn't matter that most of the stuff they say isn't factually correct - if a lie is repeated a thousand times it becomes accepted as the truth.
 
But it's not necessarily this that pees me off. Benitez is not the first manager of an important team to receive this type of treatment during a bad run - the difference here is that he gets similar treatment during good runs too. In fact, he's had it since he started in 2004. All through his entire Liverpool managerial career he's had so much sniping from Sky and the national press. From "zonal-marking" to "poor transfer record" to "net-spend" they've been all over him. His achievements are glossed over as lucky or just plain not good enough. I could list any number of examples but they just wind me up even more as I think of them (example: 3 years ago he was getting slaughtered for his "mediocre buys" like Crouch and Bellamy - now he gets slaughtered for not keeping them!!). That's the bit that pees me off. It's nothing to do with his managerial record (better than Wenger who had a team that had won the league undefeated when Benitez started) - it's personal and fuelled by the rampant egotism of those individuals at Sky and in the sports press who believe they can hound a manager out of my club - my f+++ing club - regardless of what he does just because they want it to be so. I'm not having it.
 
It's crap at the moment. Bitterly disappointing after last season. But I'm not joining in with the backstabbers. I want Benitez to stay regardless of what happens on the pitch. I'm not bothered if we end up avoiding relegation by a thread - just as long as we don't sack him this season. I don't care as long as my club has the b+lls to ignore the clamour of the countless number of vultures desperate to see us sack him, desperate to see us in crisis, desperate to see us fail.
 
This is now more than just a pro or anti Benitez issue - this is about how my club behaves and what it stands for.  Managers and players will come and go - the club is what remains in place and what matters to me. I'd rather we show the b+lls to do things OUR way and play in League 2 rather than cave in and do what those bell+nds tell us we "have to do for the sake the club".
 
No chance. When we want your opinion, we'll ask for it. In the meantime you can f++k right off.
 

This is near enough how I think as well. I want Rafa to stay, half of that is because I think he can turn it around and has earnt the right to try and turn it round (till the end of the season at least). The other half is because I don't want us (club/fans) to bow down down to what seems like the constant critiscisms of our manager in the press since he joined in 2004. While I've been deeply disappointed with the playing side of things this year, I've almost been equally disappointed in how a proportion of our fans have swallowed the lies and over bias against our manager in the media.

Part of the reason the Spurs home game was so satisfying last week was because the reaction of the fan in the ground. No sniping, no moaning but standing as one and supporting the club through these hard times. I don't think anyone could argue that the season has been disappointing, and that questions should be asked about the future direction of the club. However, these questions should be asked at the end of the season, not during the season. I don't like to use the phrase but it's not 'The Liverpool Way' to sack a manager mid season plus Rafa's previous record has earnt him the time to try and put things right...no matter what the media might try and make you believe.

[majestic_11]

This is a very decent thread and an excellent opening post. I wouldn't expect anything less from Fat Scouser.

It's a hard thing for a Liverpool supporter to think what it might be like if your manager was sacked. We have a proud history of not sacking managers and an even prouder one of getting behind the boss in times of difficulty. We know about long-term planning because our greatest victories have been the direct result of it. So to even imagine a future without Rafa at the helm seems like an act of spinelessness, even of treachery. It's especially difficult when it's Rafael Benitez you're talking about. The man clearly adores Liverpool and sees this job as the most important of his life. He understands the culture of the club completely and the nature of the people who follow it. And he knows what it would mean to us all to rebutter the bread.

But I do have big doubts about whether he can deliver. These are not brought on by watching Sky tv (I don't have it and like most people tune out anyway when I hear half-time studio chat). I never listen to the football radio programmes, and never have done. I've stopped reading the daily papers (you don't miss them after a while), and I don't even read links on RAWK that say Whelan or McMahon want Rafa out (I prefer to think of these men as great players and not stupid pundits). I also never express my doubts when I'm with pals who support other teams. On the contrary I stick up for Rafa with old-time religious zeal. Yet....

Yet looking back to 2004 when he came to us from Valencia I know I expected far more. Istanbul was the greatest victory of all time - and Rafa will remain beloved even if he achieves nothing more at Liverpool. And of course no one had the right to 'expect' Istanbul. I'm not even sure I 'expected' the fella to win us the league in his first 5 seasons. I may have done, but that's not important. What I definitely expected was that he would produce a team I really enjoyed watching. And that's the most important thing because I'm in the school of thought which says attractive, attacking teams full of skill and risk are the ones which cradle heaps of silverware at the end of the day.

But Rafa hasn't delivered on that. He's bought some fabulous players and built a great squad. But they have hardly ever been allowed to play to their potential. Over the last 5 years we've played too cautiously, even at Anfield. We haven't kept the ball as well as our rivals and we've resorted to a primitive style of play much quicker than they have when under a bit of duress. And that's unforgiveable when (as was the case last season) you have the greatest striker in the world in your team, the greatest attacking midfielder, the greatest playmaker, and the greatest goalkeeper. In other words the perfect spine, which all the best Liverpool teams have had.

Last season left me with mixed feelings. The experience of Fulham away and the memory of what it was like to really feel 'we're gonna win the league' was precious. But the lack of ambition in autumn and early winter when we topped the league and Man Utd were suffering was pitiful. We played some really bad games in that period and stuck with some really mediocre players. Instead of pulling away like champions we entered matches with the mind-set of runners-up.

And that's been my biggest complaint with Rafa. He has placed a player like Kuyt on some kind of pedestal and made him the symbol of the team. It's as if Shanks had picked out Boersma and said 'this man is on the first team sheet, regardless'. Likewise Rafa has failed to do anything to replace Jamie Carragher when it's as clear as day that he's half the player he was in 2005. Sir Bob would never have done that. Older fans will remember that Emlyn was dropped a year after skippering the side to two successive European Cups. And dropped for a fancy-dan, lanky kid from Ayr Utd or somewhere. A lad who liked to dribble his way out of a defensive melee! But, christ, it didn't half make us play as a team. I'm sure Emlyn wasn't pleased. But top coaches are always ruthless. It's all very well being ruthless to kids (like Babel). But you've got to show your mettle to the veterans too.

I wouldn't trust Hicks and Gillette to pick a successor. I wouldn't join a chorus demanding Rafa's dismissal. I have nothing but scorn for those who show lack of solidarity in public. But I do now find myself wondering what a more ambitious, less fearful manager would do with the great players Rafa has assembled. If we come 5th or 6th or 7th this year I don't know what I'll feel. In a way it's not our final position in the league which matters to me. What matters is that Rafa shows some signs of changing the way we play. If he takes a risk and gets rid of Kuyt, then takes another and starts blooding Kelly alongside Agger, and then takes a third and says Aquilani and Benayoun have chemistry and must be allowed to do damage in the last third, then I'll be one chuffed Red. I'd accept 7th then in the sure knowledge that things will get better in 2010-11. If, on the other hand, we're still sending out players who don't like the ball at their feet, pumping the ball long and retreating behind a 9-man defensive wall when we take the lead, then it's got to be good-bye to Rafa. We'll never, ever win the league playing that kind of stuff.




 

What a great balanced read...................

[Dr Cornwallis]

Right. I've had enough of this. You will not be surprised that I've got a cob on about something or other, but this is doing my f+++ing head in now.
 
Cards on the table - Benitez has been poor since the end of last season. The awful start against Spurs was all too predictable because we'd been awful all pre-season and seemed dreadfully underprepared. Results have been too consistently poor to blame on bad luck and injuries. Those players should still be doing much better than they are. He deserves criticism for his management in the last 7 months, but the excellent job he'd done in the preceding 5 years means he should be allowed the opportunity to put it right by getting to the end of the season as a minimum.
 
Now to the bit which has been properly peeing me off - and for a very long time.
 
Ever since the Villa home game the knives have been right out and firmly thrust in his back. Sky have led the way with an almost daily series of speculative "reports" on SSN about the latest "crisis" that Benitez faces. Every single pre and post match interview has consisted of Sky, ESPN and ITV getting their reporter to ask a series of ridiculously aggressive and accusatory questions - astonishing when you consider how 99.9% of their interviews are no more than "Are you a little disappointed by that 10-0 home defeat, Harry?" (Sky pre match v Stoke, "Aquilani is on the bench today, Rafa, why isn't a player you paid £20m for starting every game?". Their Sunday Supplement show (Hold The Back Page for old skool Sky-ers like Keogh) has turned into a weekly witch-hunt with the assembled geniuses of the press almost coming to blows in their eagerness to tear him to pieces on telly. They then join their brethren back in Fleet Street and Wapping to compose the pages that form the daily press attack on him too. It's relentless. Every day for months. Absolutely relentless and you know they won't stop until they get him. As much as they'll publicly state that managers get themselves fired through results, the people at Sky and the writers in the press glory in the ability they have to get someone dismissed. They f+++ing love it. Doesn't matter that most of the stuff they say isn't factually correct - if a lie is repeated a thousand times it becomes accepted as the truth.
 
But it's not necessarily this that pees me off. Benitez is not the first manager of an important team to receive this type of treatment during a bad run - the difference here is that he gets similar treatment during good runs too. In fact, he's had it since he started in 2004. All through his entire Liverpool managerial career he's had so much sniping from Sky and the national press. From "zonal-marking" to "poor transfer record" to "net-spend" they've been all over him. His achievements are glossed over as lucky or just plain not good enough. I could list any number of examples but they just wind me up even more as I think of them (example: 3 years ago he was getting slaughtered for his "mediocre buys" like Crouch and Bellamy - now he gets slaughtered for not keeping them!!). That's the bit that pees me off. It's nothing to do with his managerial record (better than Wenger who had a team that had won the league undefeated when Benitez started) - it's personal and fuelled by the rampant egotism of those individuals at Sky and in the sports press who believe they can hound a manager out of my club - my f+++ing club - regardless of what he does just because they want it to be so. I'm not having it.
 
It's crap at the moment. Bitterly disappointing after last season. But I'm not joining in with the backstabbers. I want Benitez to stay regardless of what happens on the pitch. I'm not bothered if we end up avoiding relegation by a thread - just as long as we don't sack him this season. I don't care as long as my club has the b+lls to ignore the clamour of the countless number of vultures desperate to see us sack him, desperate to see us in crisis, desperate to see us fail.
 
This is now more than just a pro or anti Benitez issue - this is about how my club behaves and what it stands for.  Managers and players will come and go - the club is what remains in place and what matters to me. I'd rather we show the b+lls to do things OUR way and play in League 2 rather than cave in and do what those bell+nds tell us we "have to do for the sake the club".
 
No chance. When we want your opinion, we'll ask for it. In the meantime you can f++k right off.
 
 
 
 
 
Well I'm not having it. They can kiss my ring.

I've got a hard-on.
I echo everything there, I'd rather go down with our heads held high rather than bow down to these disgusting bastards.  if they don't watch their step, they'll start more than they can finish.

[majestic_11]

I agree with that 99.99%. The only thing I'd say is... they are good enough. And if we ever got something like our full 11 on the field in something resembling a full state of fitness, we'd be whacking the likes of Wolves and a match for any of the top teams. And that's where all the problems stem from...

The slow start, injuries and sheer bad luck have led to a complete lack of confidence. And the likes of Mick McCarthy then send their teams out like a pack of hyenas after a wounded sheep. Each set back compounds it, and I see no answer until we have a fully fit team because from now until the end of the season every team we play will set about us in the same way.

Get Torres, Gerrard, Yossi, Johnson and Agger back on the pitch along with a fully fit Masch and Aquilani (It's time to set this lad loose) and we'll start knocking some results together. But the longer this goes on, the more the rest will allow their heads to drop.

Other than that, I have no answers. But I know one thing.... sacking Rafa isn't the solution. And the hysterical amongst us should think back a little to how we was before the man arrived, because if he walks or is pushed, and the club is left solely in the hands of H&G.... this period could soon be getting screamed about on here as the good old days.

I don't want to turn this into a Arsenal thread or a Houllier thread but i want to use these  examples in my reply. Rafa always used the great Milan side of the late 80's as a blue print on how he wants his teams to play. He wanted to play a pressing game, and he wanted to win possesion higher up the field.That was Rafa vision on how the game should be played, that is what he has been working towards for the last 6 six years.

A few injuries and a lack of confidence later, Rafa reverts back to Houllier tactics, a tactic that Rafa identified to be wrong with the club when he first took over.

Houllier to his credit and downfall always said he didn't want to play with wingers, he believed the way to play was to soak up possesion and hit team quickly and directly on the counter attack, it proved to be quite succesful but in time we came predicatable and we didn't have the personal or tactical plan to change it so the club decided to change it.

Wenger belives the way to play football is on the deck, pass and move. He likes athlectic  pacey players and trys to combine them with creative players. A couple of years ago Arsenal played most of the season outside of the top four, they suffered injuries and they must have suffered a lack of confidence but did we see Arsene drop his beliefs? Did we see Arsenal drop to the 18 yard line and start 'hoofing' the ball forward to Adebayor? No Wenger stook to his beliefs he tried to play the way he sees the game should be played. Now that way of football may not be the right way to play, he might end up the same way as Houllier but at least he stook to his beliefs, even in adversity he never abandoned the way he wanted his team to play.

I don't know what Rafa wants to achieve, i don't even know what our style of play is and if you asked me 6 years ago would i sign up to this, i would have said noway! I do love the bloke and at every game i still sing and support his name, because thats all i can do, i never slag the man off to other teams fans, but i would be happy for Rafa to leave in the summer. Like yorky i thought 6 years in the making we would look more like Valencia and less like Stoke city!

[Gnurglan]

I don't want to turn this into a Arsenal thread or a Houllier thread but i want to use these  examples in my reply. Rafa always used the great Milan side of the late 80's as a blue print on how he wants his teams to play. He wanted to play a pressing game, and he wanted to win possesion higher up the field.That was Rafa vision on how the game should be played, that is what he has been working towards for the last 6 six years.

A few injuries and a lack of confidence later, Rafa reverts back to Houllier tactics, a tactic that Rafa identified to be wrong with the club when he first took over.

Houllier to his credit and downfall always said he didn't want to play with wingers, he believed the way to play was to soak up possesion and hit team quickly and directly on the counter attack, it proved to be quite succesful but in time we came predicatable and we didn't have the personal or tactical plan to change it so the club decided to change it.

Wenger belives the way to play football is on the deck, pass and move. He likes athlectic  pacey players and trys to combine them with creative players. A couple of years ago Arsenal played most of the season outside of the top four, they suffered injuries and they must have suffered a lack of confidence but did we see Arsene drop his beliefs? Did we see Arsenal drop to the 18 yard line and start 'hoofing' the ball forward to Adebayor? No Wenger stook to his beliefs he tried to play the way he sees the game should be played. Now that way of football may not be the right way to play, he might end up the same way as Houllier but at least he stook to his beliefs, even in adversity he never abandoned the way he wanted his team to play.

I don't know what Rafa wants to achieve, i don't even know what our style of play is and if you asked me 6 years ago would i sign up to this, i would have said noway! I do love the bloke and at every game i still sing and support his name, because thats all i can do, i never slag the man off to other teams fans, but i would be happy for Rafa to leave in the summer. Like yorky i thought 6 years in the making we would look more like Valencia and less like Stoke city!

I think it's a case of going back to basics. If our pressing game doesn't work, a fundamental part of our game doesn't work. That's why we want to fix that and we do it with a more defensive outlook.

Really don't think it's anything but temporary. As I've mentioned before, the Spurs game, in the 1st half, we got it to work again and put them under a lot of pressure.

[xerxes1]

Yorkykopite's post is spot on, keyo's the sort of introspective media paranoia which is fortunately starting to fade.

[majestic_11]

I think it's a case of going back to basics. If our pressing game doesn't work, a fundamental part of our game doesn't work. That's why we want to fix that and we do it with a more defensive outlook.

Really don't think it's anything but temporary. As I've mentioned before, the Spurs game, in the 1st half, we got it to work again and put them under a lot of pressure.

A basic that the manager identified to be wrong? A basic 6 years into the making? I watch shite teams come to Anfield defend the 18 yard line and try and 'nick' a winner, its known on here as the park the bus teams.

You are right though, thats exactly what Rafa is doing and some people think thats the right thing to do! My view is different, i want Rafa to trust his own abilities and trust those players he bought to carry forward the plan he has in his head. I know he comprimised in season one becuase it largely wasn't his team but 6 years later?

At least one of our midfielders will be a world cup winner in August that i am sure of yet we couldn't even string 4 passes together against utter shite like Stoke, Wolves and Reading! We went long alot against spurs to...................

I don't want Rafa to tell me we have progressed i want him to show us..................

[the_prodigal_s0n]

There are a lot of good posts on this thread. Echoing Keyo's post, if Rafa goes it will sadden me greatly. Even if the time is right for him to move on and it's quite blatant that we're not making progress. The reason for that is because, pretty much since day one, there's been a media vendetta against him. I don't believe that that's paranoia in the slightest. There are countless examples of how badly he's been portrayed in the media since arriving here. Whether that's to do with him or with the club I don't know, but it really doesn't matter.

I'd just absolutely hate to see the media, and opposition fans get what they want. They've wanted him out for a long time, and if he goes they'll be rubbing their hands with glee. I really hope he can stay, and ram the doubts down people's throats. It may be too late for that though.

[Stan.]

I've got a hard-on.
I echo everything there, I'd rather go down with our heads held high rather than bow down to these disgusting bastards.  if they don't watch their step, they'll start more than they can finish.

Whilst I agree in principle, I wouldn't not sack a manager just to poke one in the eye of them c*nts.  Theres a real danger with our feelings towards the media and even our own board and owners that as fans we're prepared to cut off our nose to spite our face when it comes to Rafa.

I agree, and have spoken out many times about the injuries and the instability at board-room level, but the fact remains we haven't even looked good this season when we've had our best players on the pitch.  Fat Scouser says we would be twatting the likes of Wolves with Torres, Johnson and Benayoun on the pitch, but if the last 5 years are anything to go by, we wouldn't.  We'd maybe be scraping a 1-0 because despite Rafa overhauling the squad and bringing in the sort of class player we've not seen here since the 1980's, we've never been able to open teams up in the final third and create clear-cut chances consistently game-in, game-out. 

I'll say it again, Rafa doesn't necessarily need to go, but he does need to change because this league  is getting better and better, tougher and tougher and if you want to progress you build your playing style around your best players, not expect them to see hardly anything of the ball but still pull something out the bag evertytime to pull you out the shit.