Author Topic: Time to stop and think....  (Read 34766 times)

Offline John C

  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,279
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #120 on: January 16, 2010, 10:23:35 am »
Some great pro-Rafa posts in here and rightly so, the man deserves respect.

But back on the pitch, even if we get beat today at Stoke I won't be calling for his head although I may have a fuckin good moan in here about how things went wrong.

Every manager should be allowed a dismal season, so assuming it remains dismal lets fast forward to May and consider what if we finish 5th -below Rafa's guaranteed target. Some may argue that would be unacceptable, even Rafa may, and there may be an argument that he should walk with dignity without compensation (which I understand is not £18m).

But returning to my theory that every manager deserves a dismal season and we should never be a sacking club for finishing 5th. However, and here is the key issue, what if status quo prevails and there is no improvement in the squad then come October it's déjà vu and we're in a poor run of form. Do we collectively agree that we are financially disadvantaged and despite having one of the best spines in the world with a handful of world class players we have to accept mediocre football and just be glad we support Liverpool. Do we accept that defeats against Portsmouth etc, happens, that's just football or is it reasonable for us to expect our manager to improve our game with the resources he has, which are not exactly pitiful

Enjoy the spring & the summer RAWKites, there's no soul searching to do yet. But come October you may have to open your hearts and minds to what you want. Wherever its to be gracious you support Liverpool or hope of glory again.

Offline WelshKopite

  • "I'm done with my negativity...seriously. I'm not posting one more negative thing, quote me on it."
  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #121 on: January 16, 2010, 10:44:40 am »


Great post man... and thanks for the cool response back, I certainly didn't want to get into some slagging argument, so cheers.

I agree with some points, don't agree with others but that's fine.

I'm just sitting here watching Soccer AM and now they're taking the piss out of Voronin, I can't believe how much everyone else likes to see us fail, sad fuckers.

Anyway, have a good weekend man and I'm sure I'll catch you on another debate soon, let's hope it's about players we're gonna sign or something. Cheers.

Offline Free Kuyt

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
  • Freak out
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #122 on: January 16, 2010, 10:51:33 am »
It's very easy to make a change sound like a good thing - like a 'fresh' approach. Fresh always sounds appealing - it's an ad-man's dream.

My view though is, once you start chasing a fresh approach as your club philosophy, you're operating a revolving door policy and you can't find a club in English football where that has worked.

I think our problems this season have stemmed from injuries, which have resulted in a loss of consistency, spiralling into poor form and a loss of confidence.

Our two key attacking players - Gerrard and Nando - look like walking wounded, playing through injuries. It can't be easy wondering if you're going to make it through the season with persistent injury problems and miss out on a World Cup. Especially one where both might think they have some chances. So, understandibly, they've looked a shadow of the awesome partnership of previous seasons.

Under these kinds of circumstances any manager is going to struggle. Not to recognise that and simply to call for the manager's head and a 'fresh' approch is lunacy, when we have a dignified, tactically brilliant man committed to the club, assembling our best squad for years, revamping the youth system and keeping a lid on the internal politics on a budget which - by top 4 standards - is a shoestring.

This club needs long-term direction, which I continue to believe Rafa is providing, and changing manager for a boost in morale or confidence is the ultimate in short-term thinking.

Offline Purple Aki Fitness Club

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 223
  • Student Discounts Available!
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #123 on: January 16, 2010, 11:38:56 am »
Bill Shankly once went 7 years without winning anything.If he was LFC manager today the Gutter press and glory hunters would have called for his head also.Have faith,patience, show others why liverpool fans are different.If we start sacking people after a poor run of form, we become just like everybody else. History indicated that the most successful clubs stick with their managers, even during bad times

Offline Hinesy

  • RAWK Editor. Giving it BAFTA’s. 57'sy. Caramel log dealer and comma chameleon. Tory Totty Tonguer
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,311
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #124 on: January 16, 2010, 11:57:13 am »
How many years would you have stuck with Houllier then? There does come a point when change is necessary. I just don't think its now.
Yep.

Offline mccred

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,429
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #125 on: January 16, 2010, 12:34:11 pm »
Fat Scouser iam of a similar age to your good self and i have seen the great and the bad that this wonderful club has to offer. We live in a world were this once great club has been reduced to a media pillory were we place our manager in full view of these ignorant bastards who copy and paste insults and twisted opinion as fact.
In many ways this is indicative of modern society were repacious greed has replaced morality and conscious,and in doing so feeds the need to blame when failure has taken place.

We as both a club and a city stood for self belief and would back people who tried their upmost to do their best for the club or city.
Now we have started to show the first signs of that position changing at a faster pace than ever before.
We as supporters have a opportunity to stand against this repugnant tide,stand up for Rafa sing his name loud and proud. Make the sad hacks who pump out there bile week in week out realise that they may convince "tarquin from essex" that we are finished but he will never convince us.
Stop ringing the pathetic talkshows and their plastic hosts which only fuel their bonfire of vanity.
We are different from all the other clubs...remember that and if you cannot then go somewere else. We are Liverpool football club who are a beacon of red light to others who believe that somethings in life are more important than just winning a silver pot every season. If you dont believe in that then we might as well put away our proud banners and songs and wave plastic flags issued by the next set of owners looking to make the "brand"more attractive to the media whore.
Ask yourself in the mirror what would Shankly say about sacking our manager?

Great post. Couldn't agree more.
Don't Ever,Ever Buy The S*n. Fucking Tory Scum.

FUCK OFF PUTIN!

Offline Free Kuyt

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
  • Freak out
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #126 on: January 16, 2010, 12:34:20 pm »
How many years would you have stuck with Houllier then? There does come a point when change is necessary. I just don't think its now.

If Houllier had bought the 2003/4 equivalents of Torres, Lucas and Benny instead of Diouf, Diao and Cisse he might had survived a poor season. It wasn't simply the results - he'd spent top dollar (for us) club record kind of money on players who were substandard.

With the exception of Aquilani, who's still an unknown quantity, and Keane, who was shipped in and back out again quickly to minimise the damage - you can't look at any of Rafa's big purchases and think we're going backwards.

Houllier's team looked like it had peaked, he'd bought badly and then had to play his mistakes. This team looks like it's massively underachieving. That's the difference for me.

Offline Steele_uk

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 291
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #127 on: January 16, 2010, 12:49:55 pm »
I don't want him out now, but i do lay a lot of the blame squarely at him for our current predicement.

I think his performance with transfers has been appauling. I just don't think they have been good enough, and at times i have failed to see why he has tried to bolster some already strong areas, when others were woefully underequipped.
We have had far too many questionable signings, i don't buy the thinking that simply selling a player for more than you paid for him is being successful in the transfer market. That strategy must cause real problems when trying to gain the trust of players, past present and future.

I query the 20m spent on an injured Aquilani. I think signing an injured player, with a history of injuries is a very risky strategy. 20 million is a huge amount of money, so why the rush to put it on an unknown quantity?


I don't think he has the psychology and people skills to re-energise players. The way he handles players doesn't seem to engage players into wanting to play for him, and i do think communication between players and managements seems at an all time low.

He has had great periods with us, but the dynamic between him and Liverpool football club is not working any more.

If we fail to get top this season i would like to see a change this summer.


Offline alfonso

  • Simply adores orange squash. With not one, not two either, but yea verily with three, that is correct, THREE ice cubes therein! Do not forget his straw though.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,814
  • Salford - crime capital of England
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #128 on: January 16, 2010, 03:15:56 pm »
Zonal marking?[/i] He has altered the system. He hasn't gone full man to man, but he has changed it. We have certainly tried a mix of zonal and man to man, we haven't kept the exact same system all the time. We've conceded from 2 set pieces in the last 15 games - Adebayor and Reading, I think was the other one. Our previous record from set pieces is very good. Bad form from it this season, with lots of injuries in defence, is hardly conclusive proof that a system which has worked before and works for many clubs is by definition bad. He has altered it - why should he switch to man to man? Chelsea do man to man - apparently they've conceded more set pieces (as in direct corners etc) than any other team this season.

The goal we conceded looked like we defended with some man marking.
Also Insua was on the back post.
He didn't get out quick enough and as a result he kept Huth onside for the goal.
If it was the usual zonal marking, would we have got the offside call.

I wonder why Benitez has altered the defending.
The next corner Insua wasn't on the line, it looked like zonal again.

Is Benitez giving them instructions or is Carra/Reina calling the shots?
"I know Liverpool fans care more about their club's success than the national team." Rafael Benitez

"Still we've had the hard times too - one year we finished second." Bob Paisley

"When zonal marking goes wrong, the system is blamed. When man-to-man marking fails, an individual is blamed and the system goes uncriticised." A LFC fan talking sense

Offline hesbighesred

  • Wallasey Wrecker. But you can call me quick fingers. After a threesome with Stevie and Alex
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,440
    • Collaborative thoughts on Euro 2012
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #129 on: January 17, 2010, 11:24:24 pm »
Great post man... and thanks for the cool response back, I certainly didn't want to get into some slagging argument, so cheers.

I agree with some points, don't agree with others but that's fine.

I'm just sitting here watching Soccer AM and now they're taking the piss out of Voronin, I can't believe how much everyone else likes to see us fail, sad fuckers.

Anyway, have a good weekend man and I'm sure I'll catch you on another debate soon, let's hope it's about players we're gonna sign or something. Cheers.
Sound WK, no worries, totally agree on the last bit ;)

Sorry for being an arse. :P
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline hesbighesred

  • Wallasey Wrecker. But you can call me quick fingers. After a threesome with Stevie and Alex
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,440
    • Collaborative thoughts on Euro 2012
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #130 on: January 17, 2010, 11:25:47 pm »
The goal we conceded looked like we defended with some man marking.
Also Insua was on the back post.
He didn't get out quick enough and as a result he kept Huth onside for the goal.
If it was the usual zonal marking, would we have got the offside call.

I wonder why Benitez has altered the defending.
The next corner Insua wasn't on the line, it looked like zonal again.

Is Benitez giving them instructions or is Carra/Reina calling the shots?
Must say I didn't get that either...why against Stoke? We've never conceded against them until that goal, and of all the teams I've seen play them we've always handled them really well from set-plays etc, it's one match at least where I've always thought our system has excelled. It's odd.
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline LSURED20

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 272
  • Founding member of the John Henry fan club
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #131 on: January 18, 2010, 12:25:34 am »
Without getting too in depth (which may come later after I've had some drinks) his refusal to play younger players in the face of this substandard football worries me.

I can understand if we're in form like last year and the title is within reach. Very hard to play younger unproven players in those scenarios. Plus, heart and effort were not issues last season. This year, they very much are.

The most worrying aspect about this season has been how defeated this team becomes at what seems like the drop of a hat. Sometimes we start and finish a dead team, and sometimes it takes the slightest adversity for heads to hang and body language to deteriorate. I know sports, and this is a terrible sign. Usually it means there are problems internally, but if there aren't, it means there is a complete lack of internal belief. Without knowing those details, I'll return to my original point...

If you have players who seem defeated and the possibility of heads wandering towards the WC and not the miserable season at hand, you have players who will never struggle to turn it around. My cure? Youth. Pacheco. Darby. Aquilani & Krygiakos (youth relative to time spent in the squad). Players who have to prove themselves every minute on the pitch. Whether or not they care about the team result, they have to get their careers of the ground. It seems to me that it could be an easy way to get a shot in the arm.

Maybe it would be a huge failure, but then again, that's what this season has been anyway. There are a lot of things we could figure out going forward if we tried this. Rafa's unwillingness to change and the stubbornness he displays are my biggest knocks on him. This season above all needs something new.


Offline Mighty_Red

  • Rojo Poderoso!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,926
  • All hail the King...
    • Join the fight - SOS
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #133 on: January 18, 2010, 12:59:11 am »
Without getting too in depth (which may come later after I've had some drinks) his refusal to play younger players in the face of this substandard football worries me.

I can understand if we're in form like last year and the title is within reach. Very hard to play younger unproven players in those scenarios. Plus, heart and effort were not issues last season. This year, they very much are.

Refusal to play younger players? Are you insane or have you not been paying attention to our games? Ngog has played a part in most of our games, and Lucas (yes at 23 he still counts as a young player) is a virtual ever-present. Same with Insua.

Pacheco And Ayala got debuts, Spearing played, Kelly would be starting many matches had he not got injured (whilst playing for the 1st team). Darby has played.

They have all been given valuable game time, and I think only Kelly (if fit) has the chance to start games (if Johnson struggles with injury). Pacheco is going to be one hell of a player, but he is not ready yet. 4 months of steady sub appearances and he could be ready to make an impact next season.

Contary to your statement, this season has been fantastic for our young players because of the injury situation. Even though they have played in struggling teams, I think this will have given them a great experience which may bear fruit next season, which brings us back to the original topic, Rafa's future.

If you take into account that the likes of Lucas, Insua (whilst currently struggling) and Ngog have improved from last season and Pacheco is developing too, could these players have an even bigger impact next season, allowing us to spend what little money we have where we really need it, and give ourselves every opportunity to having a great 2010/11? Players that are more loyal to Rafa than the likes of Babel? I think this could be the key to whether Rafa can survive or not.
Some clubs were always destined for greatness...

Offline cornishred1

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Kopite
  • ******
  • Posts: 995
  • Come home Rafa!
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #134 on: January 18, 2010, 12:59:51 am »
It's very easy to make a change sound like a good thing - like a 'fresh' approach. Fresh always sounds appealing - it's an ad-man's dream.

My view though is, once you start chasing a fresh approach as your club philosophy, you're operating a revolving door policy and you can't find a club in English football where that has worked.

I think our problems this season have stemmed from injuries, which have resulted in a loss of consistency, spiralling into poor form and a loss of confidence.

Our two key attacking players - Gerrard and Nando - look like walking wounded, playing through injuries. It can't be easy wondering if you're going to make it through the season with persistent injury problems and miss out on a World Cup. Especially one where both might think they have some chances. So, understandibly, they've looked a shadow of the awesome partnership of previous seasons.

Under these kinds of circumstances any manager is going to struggle. Not to recognise that and simply to call for the manager's head and a 'fresh' approch is lunacy, when we have a dignified, tactically brilliant man committed to the club, assembling our best squad for years, revamping the youth system and keeping a lid on the internal politics on a budget which - by top 4 standards - is a shoestring.

This club needs long-term direction, which I continue to believe Rafa is providing, and changing manager for a boost in morale or confidence is the ultimate in short-term thinking.

Good post mate, totally agree with all of it :thumbup
SOS member no- 5073
If I live to be a hundred and Liverpool bring in genius managers who win Quadruples and Quintuples for the club, I'll always point to Rafa as the one who meant the most to me.

Offline LSURED20

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 272
  • Founding member of the John Henry fan club
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #135 on: January 18, 2010, 01:11:34 am »
good points Mighty.

Watching N'Gog and Lucas grow this season has been a highlight for me. I just wish we could be watching others do the same.

My point really was that while a few are good, we could just go for broke with them. Give Pacheco and Ayala a run out. Also, even though Insua is young, I wouldn't mind seeing him spend awhile on the bench.

Offline sattapaartridge

  • The new 'pete price' of RAWK.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,535
  • @sattapaal
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #136 on: January 18, 2010, 01:16:22 am »
according to karma, this really bad season will be countered with a really good season.

i dont think its time to sack rafa...i think he needs a summer of £50million to spend, and then judge him after that.
did you know that 10 x 2 and 11 x 2 have the same answer?

Offline horne

  • y
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,526
  • through a storm
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #137 on: January 18, 2010, 01:18:06 am »
rafa is doing the right thing by moving the dead wood,none tryers out and bringing a few in.when they click,someone is in for a tonkin.i think the squad is getting stronger....and i say it again....it will come good

if you were on a deserted island and a fucking rag floated up onto shore in a bottle.you would think we were fighting off relegation or something
success = the absence of the fear of failure

Offline KopThat

  • "See Tom turn red, See Tom run, Oh happy days."
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,524
  • He who laughs last, didn't quite get the joke...
    • GameFaceMe
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #138 on: January 18, 2010, 01:43:12 am »
We have basically the same team as last year (if we put the Alonso situation to one side)

I think Torres and Gerrard have been out for similar periods.

One of the big things that have changed is the ambitions of teams like Manchester City, Villa and Spurs,
who are no longer happy with knocking on the door of the so called top 4, and there will
be an almighty fight for those top 4 positions.

We have definitely performed the worst of last years top 4, and that is with the Mancs losing Ronaldo and Tevez.

Stevie G is one of the best players in the world and has seen another chance for that elusive league title slip away, and I think he is begining to look jaded, you can see his head drop in games and he is well below his high bench mark.
He is our captain and I wonder how that effects the rest of the team.

I don't see Rafa doing anything different to what he has done in previous seasons, he still makes tactical and player changes that baffle at times.

Up until Evans\Houllier we weren't the type of club that would sack our manager, if there was something wrong at the club we put it right.
With the current board and owners we will be the same as any other club in that regard, and if it wasn't for the huge pay out I think Rafa would be gone, and I think even if we manage to finish in the top 4, they will be working to replace him in the summer.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 06:43:54 am by KopThat »

Offline Stan.

  • drinks warm piss, and come back to him when Owen actually joins utd. Until then leeeeeave Micky aloooone!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,247
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #139 on: January 18, 2010, 02:06:35 am »
I don't read tabloids, rarely put sky sports news on and have little or no interest in what so-called experts and ex-players have to say about Liverpool FC.  I don't hear much match commentary on us because I get to most games, so I'm fairly happy that my opinions about my club are not media-influenced and are based honestly on what I see in front of me at the match.

This season injuries have hammered us, and for whatever reason, our usually miserly defence has deserted us.  Continued uncertainty at boardroom level coupled with a transfer budget almost entirely funded by player sales means Rafa is having to work in near impossible conditions, especially when the expectations of the club are considered.

Despite this, my issue (for want of a better word) with Rafa is that I've never particularly liked the way we play under him.  Clearly there have been exceptions but generally good flowing pass and move football is rare.  Players seem to receive the ball and not really know what to do with it.  Passing is flat, crosses are to no one in particular, and theres often space on the pitch when we're in possession that should be occupied.  In my honest opinion despite the squad improving, the football hasn't.

Without doubt Rafa's priority is ensuring the side is organised defensively to the nth degree.  Whilst important, five years in, it's still come at the expense good movement and attacking creativity.  Stats might suggest we get plenty of shots in, but clear-cut chances are at a premium.  We rarely cut teams to shreds or carve them open despite having a squad more than capable of doing so.

When it works like it undoubtedly has done, we're almost unbeatable.  Despite not creating much, we have enough quality, predominantly in the likes of Torres and Gerrard, to get goals (sometimes out of nothing).  However when the defensive stability fails, as it has this season, we look like a below-average premiership side who simply can't create enough chances to win enough games.

Some of my best memories as a Liverpool fan have come under Rafa's reign.  He's won the Champions League FFS!  Not to mention some of the fantastic footballers he's brought here.  I don't want him out, at the very least he deserves until the end of the season, and the question remains - who out there is better and available? But at the same time, I think his style of play is limited and until what I watch week-in-week-out improves, I can't justify throwing my weight behind a campaign to keep him here.
Someday soon everyone will know the truth.  96 never forgotten.

Offline shanklyboy

  • OCB Enforcer.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,591
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #140 on: January 18, 2010, 02:52:44 am »
Great idea FS.

My advice to anyone who is supportive of the manager is to keep well away from this thread.
Leave it to those who want him out.

The outcome will be the same as all the other threads in the end as the gobshites with their gobshite reasoning will start coming out in force.
I'm surprised that given it's a thread which has been started especially for them, there isn't the usual outpouring of shite that permeates through virtually every other thread.

Benitez's supporters can quite happily run pages and pages of posts in support without the need to have any confrontation from the detractors.

Why is it that when a thread like this starts, they are not that keen. Either they don't have the guts to put their head above the parapet when it's not a crowded room or they thrive off the confrontation. It not the same when it's just like minded souls is it lads?

There may be some polite statements made up to now regarding the reasons why Benitez should go but in all honesty it won't stay like that. It will go the same way as the threads in support of Benitez, which his detractors can't stay out of.
I'm sick and tired of hearing the same tired old arguments and the vaccuous repetition and parroting of the media whores by Liverpool supporters,coming out time after time.

I support the man and will continue to do so while he gives everything he has to our club.
I'm not interested in the 'A' level pseudo psychologists or bollockless inane analysis of everything he says and does.


So I'll leave them to it as there is no chance for rational debate over this.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 02:55:13 am by shanklyboy »
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy.
www.savelfc.org

Offline Another Red

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,708
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #141 on: January 18, 2010, 03:32:39 am »
Rafa definitely deserves our backing for the moment. Things are going horribly, but they could be a lot worse. Spurs, City & Villa would be pleased with how their season is progressing, yet there's still only 4 points between them and ourselves (it's hard to believe). Given that we still have very realistic hopes of making the top 4, sacking Rafa right now would be madness.

Our current injury crisis has exposed our obvious lack of depth. Our first team is stronger than it was two seasons ago, but squad players like Dossena, Degen & Voronin have held us back recently. Collectively they didn't cost much but the sum of their onfield contributions doesn't amount to much either. When Rafa has been allowed to spend, he's generally done well. But there have been a few questionable buys also: Keane, Babel, Dossena.

One thing about Rafa though, he is always doing his best for the team. Rafa recognises squad depth as an issue and his dealings so far in January reflects this.

Offline Niru Red4ever

  • Spoiler spoiler
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,877
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #142 on: January 18, 2010, 03:39:58 am »
I  seriously hope he turns him around for 2 reasons.

1) He is putting his ideas into practice in youth and reserve levels. Would be disater if he left midway.

2) Even more serious is the fact that he holds his own against the owners. If a new manager comes in, he will definitely toe the owner's line. 

Though I can't help seeing the parallel between Rafa and Houllier's reign (a season with great expectations turning to dust). Also, by a long shot if Benitez is replaced by someone like Hiddink; it may actually turn out to be better.
Would love the 19th more and more trophies; but would love even more to see a fan owned LFC.

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,170
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #143 on: January 18, 2010, 10:35:15 am »
but give me a break when it comes to speaking to me like some idiot.

What about Warnock? A player I might add who is 10x a better player than our current left back, didn't he echo similar statements? Danny Murphy? Two players I'd take back in a heartbeat.
:lmao 

At you. Not with you.
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,170
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #144 on: January 18, 2010, 10:43:41 am »
As to the topic in question, I'm in a bit of a quandary...

I accept it would be self-defeating to want Rafa gone effective immediately, it's neither the time or the place. Let's take stock at the end of May. Fourth place in the league, a good night out in Hamburg, if not new owner(s) then at least some reinvestment, and crucially, acknowledgment from the man himself that he's made mistakes, if not in words then in actions. Maxi is a step in the right direction. But both a CB and a proper striker are desperately needed, and certain players need showing the door. Players that Rafa's treated like a comfort blanket for far too long yet are clearly holding the development of the team back. That alone would do for me. My fear however is that he's too far gone and can't see the (dead)wood for the trees.
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline exiledinyorkshire

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,699
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #145 on: January 18, 2010, 11:38:57 am »
My official view of Rafa's situation is that he should at least get some dough in the summer and another full season. So end of conversation really.

However the one real burning mark against his name in my opinion is the quality of the football. My god its poor at times. And this is a football team you know. Of course its a club, of course it stands for so much more than results, of course its a community, and an expression of that community. (i'm not scouse myself), but following Liverpool since the late seventies i have always romantisised  about the scouse nation, always seemed to me to be a proper community like the one we had back in the seventies and early eighties down south. Good honest working class, but with a huge dollop of creativity, wether that be music, poetry or an indie film  scene. The difference for me between Liverpool the city was always that extra little something in the wit and the humour, the charm the educated elegance of a working class intellect. It seemed to me that in Liverpool it was ok to be educated articulate and still be socialist at your core, something that didnt seem to be the case where i came from.this always seemed to me to be why liverpool overachieved in regards to creative outpu.Aspark of genius, and htis was always apparent on the football pitch too. For me it started with Kenny, but seemed to peak with the brilliance of Barnes, beardsley and Houghton. Football that seemed to point to the creative background of a city i amired from afar. A perfect manifestation of the team ethos , the socialism of Shanks, that far from producing the mundane run of the mill, like a communist grey durge, produced the mos magnificent football i had ever seen. I loved it and was hooked on the team and the city and the idea.

i suppose what i am trying to say iss that at the moment the football is very very very poor. Four fullbacks on saturday against Stoke.Tis not good.

Offline WelshKopite

  • "I'm done with my negativity...seriously. I'm not posting one more negative thing, quote me on it."
  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #146 on: January 18, 2010, 11:47:59 am »
Just another point to add, or ponder.

Does anyone think Rafa is average with strikers? I think he's poor with attacking players, he doesn't really know how to get the best out of them. I think it explains why defensively all his teams are solid and organised and he normally gets the best out of the defenders, but attacking wise, he's not sure what to do.

Now before anyone says Torres. Torres was class before he even joined us. Everyone knew about Torres, he was brilliant before. Rafa definitley has improved him of course, but he was class to begin with.

I'm thinking of a few strikers or attacking players we've had.

Ciise - played him right wing. Just didn't work, out of position, didn't know what to do there really.

Kuyt - incredible dutch league scoring record, now the best right back at the club, haha. Just kidding, but a right midfielder these days.

Babel - Striker/Winger - just never worked out, never lived up to potential.

Robbie Keane - top player, another one that didn't work out.

Craig Bellamy - Good player, now one of the best forwards in the league. Was pretty dire for us.

Mark Gonzales - "Of those players that gets you up on your feet" - Rafa ... yeah, to throw a pasty at! haha. (I'm having fun here so dont jump down my throat)

Nunez - I think he was faking it, I don't actually think he was a footballer. I'll let Rafa off with this one.

Voronin - the less said the better

Morientez - another failure

Sebastian Leto - Left wing sensation ..  poor

Jermaine Pennant - Wasn't used, however no-one seems to get this guy playing well


Now, to be fair.. lets flip the coin. The more succesful players.

Torres - the best striker in the world, but as I said earlier, he was already an exceptionally good player.

Crouch - turned him into an English international and a top player, so massive credit to Rafa here for sure.

Garcia - a mix of frustration and magic. But definitley a success under Rafa

Yossi - improved here under Rafa but was a very good player for West Ham anyway, and I know plenty of Hammers who were gutted to see him leave.

Riera - really like Albert, hard to track his progression under Rafa as its only been 1 season and he's hardly played this year.


What do you think?

Offline horne

  • y
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,526
  • through a storm
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #147 on: January 18, 2010, 11:48:26 am »
My official view of Rafa's situation is that he should at least get some dough in the summer and another full season. So end of conversation really.

However the one real burning mark against his name in my opinion is the quality of the football. My god its poor at times. And this is a football team you know. Of course its a club, of course it stands for so much more than results, of course its a community, and an expression of that community. (i'm not scouse myself), but following Liverpool since the late seventies i have always romantisised  about the scouse nation, always seemed to me to be a proper community like the one we had back in the seventies and early eighties down south. Good honest working class, but with a huge dollop of creativity, wether that be music, poetry or an indie film  scene. The difference for me between Liverpool the city was always that extra little something in the wit and the humour, the charm the educated elegance of a working class intellect. It seemed to me that in Liverpool it was ok to be educated articulate and still be socialist at your core, something that didnt seem to be the case where i came from.this always seemed to me to be why liverpool overachieved in regards to creative outpu.Aspark of genius, and htis was always apparent on the football pitch too. For me it started with Kenny, but seemed to peak with the brilliance of Barnes, beardsley and Houghton. Football that seemed to point to the creative background of a city i amired from afar. A perfect manifestation of the team ethos , the socialism of Shanks, that far from producing the mundane run of the mill, like a communist grey durge, produced the mos magnificent football i had ever seen. I loved it and was hooked on the team and the city and the idea.

i suppose what i am trying to say iss that at the moment the football is very very very poor. Four fullbacks on saturday against Stoke.Tis not good.

thats a good read,and from the heart.
the wacka ,was about in those days and i would love to see that team performing under todays scenarios.
would they have achieved ?...probably yes.....but they could have struggled as well who knows

on the subject of saturdays game...rafa was limited...and to be honest,if it was a boxing match,sometimes you have to out slug the slugger.
 rafa so nearly did this.
not many teams go to the bridge and pull it off. stoke away is a tough one.
i thought on reflection we did well. it was abit like the ol cup match against the lower division side, were ,ok ,you have the better players but they dont let them play. they snuff you out.
i think rafa did it to them . he made their game plan that little bit harder by matching them with battlers all over the pitch,and nearly pulled it off
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 11:58:25 am by horne »
success = the absence of the fear of failure

Offline Walshy nMe®

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,384
  • Legend
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #148 on: January 18, 2010, 11:56:31 am »
For the record I want Rafa to stay.

I have to question though, why some of the players we have - are underperforming so much.  I mean the side we have is a good side.  It really is.  Why have they just all started being shite this season?

Is it Rafa?  Is it the club's owners and the pressure that brings?  Is it the deflation of coming so close last year and throwing our title away?

Offline hesbighesred

  • Wallasey Wrecker. But you can call me quick fingers. After a threesome with Stevie and Alex
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,440
    • Collaborative thoughts on Euro 2012
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #149 on: January 18, 2010, 12:00:14 pm »
Refusal to play younger players? Are you insane or have you not been paying attention to our games? Ngog has played a part in most of our games, and Lucas (yes at 23 he still counts as a young player) is a virtual ever-present. Same with Insua.

Pacheco And Ayala got debuts, Spearing played, Kelly would be starting many matches had he not got injured (whilst playing for the 1st team). Darby has played.

They have all been given valuable game time, and I think only Kelly (if fit) has the chance to start games (if Johnson struggles with injury). Pacheco is going to be one hell of a player, but he is not ready yet. 4 months of steady sub appearances and he could be ready to make an impact next season.

Contary to your statement, this season has been fantastic for our young players because of the injury situation. Even though they have played in struggling teams, I think this will have given them a great experience which may bear fruit next season, which brings us back to the original topic, Rafa's future.

If you take into account that the likes of Lucas, Insua (whilst currently struggling) and Ngog have improved from last season and Pacheco is developing too, could these players have an even bigger impact next season, allowing us to spend what little money we have where we really need it, and give ourselves every opportunity to having a great 2010/11? Players that are more loyal to Rafa than the likes of Babel? I think this could be the key to whether Rafa can survive or not.
Some good points about the younger players, El Zhar is another one who, at 23 is hardly a kid anymore, but who's come through the ressies, and clearly would have had a part to play this season but for injury.

Looking at it, if we can secure 4th spot and go on a reasonable run by the end of the season (and lets face it, we've been more than 4 points off the top 4 before and powered our way into 'comfortable' CL qualification before now, and with the injuries we've had, players we've got to come back it's not like we don't have a reason to believe we can hit much, much better form) there are some real positives to take into next season.

In Kelly, Lucas, Insua, Ayala, Pach, Nemeth, Darby, Spearing we've got a bunch of young, hungry players, all who will count as 'home grown' for the CL, all of whom have had at least a valuable taste of first team action, or developed into genuine first team, or great squad quality. Even Ecclestone's had some minutes, and showed promise there too. That's 6-8 players right there who add depth and in some cases real quality to our squad, basically for free, on top of what we had before. Not all will be great, but you can see our future O'Shea's, Brown's and the like - loyal, hungry squad players, that's as valuable these days as world class forwards. Even the ones who don't make it are going to bring in decent fees - Nemeth, for example, will have already made us cash with his loan to Greece - which can be reinvested in more young players, or in the senior team.

We can't buy great players to sit on the bench, and won't be able to for many years yet, we have to make them, and considering Rafa's only made the changes he wanted in the summer, that's already an impressive return (considering these players have come through a botched system). We've no reason to believe this will get anything but better in the years to come. Whatever Rafa's future, it's essential that we build on these foundations, and it would be very useful to give Rafa at least another season to get this stuff set in stone, get people like Borrel and McParland invested in the project, and give Dalglish the time to know all he needs to know about this stuff, so if Rafa does get replaced at least we wouldn't be throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Of course, I'd rather have Rafa here for many years to see it through himself, and I'm sure he would too. He would have left any other club with the shit he's put up with here, but clearly the crazy man has completely fallen in love with our club and it's traditions...he's as much a fan as the rest of us, which is something people might bear in mind when urging him to 'take responsibility' - as if he isn't already taking on far more than any manager I can think of.

He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline cornelius

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,803
  • "Beware the beast man, for he is the Devil's pawn"
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #150 on: January 18, 2010, 12:04:45 pm »

But in all honesty, there's only 2 alternatives I can see...
1: The worst - doing a Leeds.
2: Mid table mediocrity, under a mediocre manager.

I just find it amazing how many people call themselves optimists with a half full pint glass on Rawk and yet share this viewpoint.

Offline hesbighesred

  • Wallasey Wrecker. But you can call me quick fingers. After a threesome with Stevie and Alex
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,440
    • Collaborative thoughts on Euro 2012
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #151 on: January 18, 2010, 12:08:04 pm »
To be fair though db, I take your point, but a couple of things:

1) He took over from Houllier, a squad built very much for one type of football, not based on quick one touch stuff, with our star player having his formative years in a very different kind of game.

2) Over the years, and it has been slow, that's fair - we have moved more in that direction, wouldn't you agree?

3) Look at the players Rafa's signed in recent years. They might not all have been successful, but on paper:

Maxi, Aquilani, Johnson, Keane, Dossenna, even Voronin and Degen, are players who play one touch stuff, or try to, or come from cultures and teams that are known for possession football. As I say, some might have really failed, but to me they all look like players we're buying to get more of that technical ability in the team and squad.

So it's not like he took over Houllier's side and bought big, tough players to batter opponents, his first signings were Garcia and Alonso - by and large he has been trying to move us that direction, but it's been bit by bit, and it's had to be - he's never been able to just inject a massive load of cash all at once to buy 5 or 6 top class technical players, as the likes of City have done, or tried to do.
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline exiledinyorkshire

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,699
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #152 on: January 18, 2010, 12:11:00 pm »
thats a good read,and from the heart.
the wacka was about in those days and i would love to see that team performing under todays scenarios.would they have achieved ?...probably yes.....but they could have struggled as well who knows

on the subject of saturdays game...rafa was limited...and to be honest,if it was a boxing match,sometimes you have to out slug the slugger,and rafa so nearly did this.not many teams go to the bridge and pull it off.stoke away is a tough one.i thought on reflection we did well.it was abit like the ol cup match against the lower division side were ok you have the better players but they dont let them play.they snuff you out.i think rafa did it to them .he made there game plan that little bit harder by matching them with battlers all over the pitch,and nearly pulled it off

I fully accept what you say about the game on Saturday and i suppose that i would pragmatically agree that the logical thing to do would be to look at the opposition, look at the players available and then lay out a cunning plan to take the points. It may not be pretty to watch but we have the three points.

Well obviously the plan didnt quite work in the end, and thats not really the fault of the manager, it was a good plan. It will work in the future and 9 times out of 10 we would have walked away with all three points.

 My point is, that i long for a team that sticks its chest out and plays. Pass and move football, what i fell in love with, the kind of football that makes your heart sing. Many with an L postcode may think of us OOTs as glory hunters, but that really isnt the reason that many follow Liverpool. They were fantastic to watch in the seventies and eighties. Pass and move was the reason, a love affair with the football, one twos and 20 pass moves that swept from one corner of the pitch to the other then back again and then int to the back of the net. A player that could beat a man, a winger who could cross a CF who could head, a number seven with his fat arse sticking out, a team that could play football amongst good footballing sides and a team that could play football against cloggers. Come one come all, you would come to Anfield and get dizzy with the quick passing before being handed your arse and sent home with nothing.

We dont get that under Rafa. We may never get that under Rafa. And all of us will continue to support to stand full square behind the manager and the club, because as i have said its all about so much more than just a football team and results. But the question mark is always going to be there. If we are to win nothing............if we are no longer to be winners...........no longer to gather glory hunters in May, if we are to struggle year in year out for 4th spot and a seat at the top table, then why not do so playing football...............pass and move, free flowing creative joyous lovely good old football. Mid table would be bearable if just once we played like the 5-0 against forest. Or it would for me anyway. And who knows, a return to the style of years gone by may even bring with it (in time) trophies.

Offline cornelius

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,803
  • "Beware the beast man, for he is the Devil's pawn"
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #153 on: January 18, 2010, 12:11:08 pm »
A guy who made the catering staff work xmas day to feed his family is never one of us, so GED failed on the humility and consideration question!

Source =GOD
Not one of us? Presumably by God you mean Robbie Fowler, who was nothing less than impeccable during his time here.

Offline hesbighesred

  • Wallasey Wrecker. But you can call me quick fingers. After a threesome with Stevie and Alex
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,440
    • Collaborative thoughts on Euro 2012
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #154 on: January 18, 2010, 12:12:07 pm »
I tell you shanklyboy, what gets my goat as well is when they all start to moan about being victimised, like RAWK is some police state. Back up your points well, and you'll be respected, even if it's very critical.

RAWK is about the only popular site I can think of where you still get a good standard of posting from a lot of people, the only site where it isn't reams and reams of 'Lucas is shite, Kuyt, ROFL, negged you 4 ur stoopid hair, LOLZ' type of stuff.

There's plenty of sites where people can bitch and moan and never have to face much in the way of argument, so why join this one if you can't handle the stick? It suggests that, deep down, a lot of these people actually don't have a lot of confidence in their arguments at all. Or it does to me anyway.
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline hesbighesred

  • Wallasey Wrecker. But you can call me quick fingers. After a threesome with Stevie and Alex
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,440
    • Collaborative thoughts on Euro 2012
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #155 on: January 18, 2010, 12:18:47 pm »
That's a very good post, and I love how you've linked the style of football to the city's culture, as an OOT, that's something that has really made this club dig deep into my soul.

What I would say though - and I'm not old enough to really remember Kenny's teams, is that under Rafa, especially towards the end of last season but also for phases in the season before, and even at the start of this, we've played the best football I can remember from any Liverpool side I've watched.

Even for pure entertainment and attacking flair, I thought 2nd half of last season was better than Evan's teams at their best, and those teams never had an overall balance, and were far more reliant on individuals than we are - if McManaman was out, or marked out, we simply didn't play well at all.

I don't think Rafa will ever build a Barca or a Dalglish team, but then again Liverpool's football history has been built on pragmatism more than entertainment - when I first really started understanding us commentators would always go on about our 'negativity' in the old days, the back pass, the boring, slow, keeping of possession etc - it wasn't all blinding Wenger ball and 5-0's every week. We ground out battling results with the best of them.
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline beadlehand

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 474
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #156 on: January 18, 2010, 12:20:42 pm »
Can't really see how Rafa going would solve anything. We have no money for new players so it would be the same squad with the same injuries etc.

So judge him at the end of the season and if the situation is terrible then let him go but in my opinion, the players haven't been mentally strong enough this season. Captain included.

Offline Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion. Phil's Official Biographer, dontcherknow...it's all true. Honestly.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,489
  • The first five yards........
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #157 on: January 18, 2010, 12:21:04 pm »
This is a very decent thread and an excellent opening post. I wouldn't expect anything less from Fat Scouser.

It's a hard thing for a Liverpool supporter to think what it might be like if your manager was sacked. We have a proud history of not sacking managers and an even prouder one of getting behind the boss in times of difficulty. We know about long-term planning because our greatest victories have been the direct result of it. So to even imagine a future without Rafa at the helm seems like an act of spinelessness, even of treachery. It's especially difficult when it's Rafael Benitez you're talking about. The man clearly adores Liverpool and sees this job as the most important of his life. He understands the culture of the club completely and the nature of the people who follow it. And he knows what it would mean to us all to rebutter the bread.

But I do have big doubts about whether he can deliver. These are not brought on by watching Sky tv (I don't have it and like most people tune out anyway when I hear half-time studio chat). I never listen to the football radio programmes, and never have done. I've stopped reading the daily papers (you don't miss them after a while), and I don't even read links on RAWK that say Whelan or McMahon want Rafa out (I prefer to think of these men as great players and not stupid pundits). I also never express my doubts when I'm with pals who support other teams. On the contrary I stick up for Rafa with old-time religious zeal. Yet....

Yet looking back to 2004 when he came to us from Valencia I know I expected far more. Istanbul was the greatest victory of all time - and Rafa will remain beloved even if he achieves nothing more at Liverpool. And of course no one had the right to 'expect' Istanbul. I'm not even sure I 'expected' the fella to win us the league in his first 5 seasons. I may have done, but that's not important. What I definitely expected was that he would produce a team I really enjoyed watching. And that's the most important thing because I'm in the school of thought which says attractive, attacking teams full of skill and risk are the ones which cradle heaps of silverware at the end of the day.

But Rafa hasn't delivered on that. He's bought some fabulous players and built a great squad. But they have hardly ever been allowed to play to their potential. Over the last 5 years we've played too cautiously, even at Anfield. We haven't kept the ball as well as our rivals and we've resorted to a primitive style of play much quicker than they have when under a bit of duress. And that's unforgiveable when (as was the case last season) you have the greatest striker in the world in your team, the greatest attacking midfielder, the greatest playmaker, and the greatest goalkeeper. In other words the perfect spine, which all the best Liverpool teams have had.

Last season left me with mixed feelings. The experience of Fulham away and the memory of what it was like to really feel 'we're gonna win the league' was precious. But the lack of ambition in autumn and early winter when we topped the league and Man Utd were suffering was pitiful. We played some really bad games in that period and stuck with some really mediocre players. Instead of pulling away like champions we entered matches with the mind-set of runners-up.

And that's been my biggest complaint with Rafa. He has placed a player like Kuyt on some kind of pedestal and made him the symbol of the team. It's as if Shanks had picked out Boersma and said 'this man is on the first team sheet, regardless'. Likewise Rafa has failed to do anything to replace Jamie Carragher when it's as clear as day that he's half the player he was in 2005. Sir Bob would never have done that. Older fans will remember that Emlyn was dropped a year after skippering the side to two successive European Cups. And dropped for a fancy-dan, lanky kid from Ayr Utd or somewhere. A lad who liked to dribble his way out of a defensive melee! But, christ, it didn't half make us play as a team. I'm sure Emlyn wasn't pleased. But top coaches are always ruthless. It's all very well being ruthless to kids (like Babel). But you've got to show your mettle to the veterans too.

I wouldn't trust Hicks and Gillette to pick a successor. I wouldn't join a chorus demanding Rafa's dismissal. I have nothing but scorn for those who show lack of solidarity in public. But I do now find myself wondering what a more ambitious, less fearful manager would do with the great players Rafa has assembled. If we come 5th or 6th or 7th this year I don't know what I'll feel. In a way it's not our final position in the league which matters to me. What matters is that Rafa shows some signs of changing the way we play. If he takes a risk and gets rid of Kuyt, then takes another and starts blooding Kelly alongside Agger, and then takes a third and says Aquilani and Benayoun have chemistry and must be allowed to do damage in the last third, then I'll be one chuffed Red. I'd accept 7th then in the sure knowledge that things will get better in 2010-11. If, on the other hand, we're still sending out players who don't like the ball at their feet, pumping the ball long and retreating behind a 9-man defensive wall when we take the lead, then it's got to be good-bye to Rafa. We'll never, ever win the league playing that kind of stuff.




 
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline nocturnalvin

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,627
  • Justice For The 96.
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #158 on: January 18, 2010, 12:25:40 pm »
Love your posts Yorky. And i find myself nodding throughout this piece.


Offline horne

  • y
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,526
  • through a storm
Re: Time to stop and think....
« Reply #159 on: January 18, 2010, 12:26:55 pm »
To be fair though db, I take your point, but a couple of things:

1) He took over from Houllier, a squad built very much for one type of football, not based on quick one touch stuff, with our star player having his formative years in a very different kind of game.

2) Over the years, and it has been slow, that's fair - we have moved more in that direction, wouldn't you agree?

3) Look at the players Rafa's signed in recent years. They might not all have been successful, but on paper:

Maxi, Aquilani, Johnson, Keane, Dossenna, even Voronin and Degen, are players who play one touch stuff, or try to, or come from cultures and teams that are known for possession football. As I say, some might have really failed, but to me they all look like players we're buying to get more of that technical ability in the team and squad.

So it's not like he took over Houllier's side and bought big, tough players to batter opponents, his first signings were Garcia and Alonso - by and large he has been trying to move us that direction, but it's been bit by bit, and it's had to be - he's never been able to just inject a massive load of cash all at once to buy 5 or 6 top class technical players, as the likes of City have done, or tried to do.
agree with you here big fella
there was an article somewhere about if liverpool were to clear out and start again,they reckon it would cost a billion or something.
If that is what it really costs to get you a stadium to keep the money coming in to compete in the future,and to get you the players needed to succeed, why then is rafa being judged as he has done ,if its obvious that he hasnt had that sought of money to pull it off?....wrongly judged!
2 european cup finals in three years ,an fa cup and 2nd in the league beating a chelsea team that has consistantly had big funding when needed is pretty good if you ask me.....if you would have asked me when houllier was released would i have been happy with that at this stage....your hand would have been snapped off
he has done what other manges only dream of and will never achieve...he can do it again....and should be allowed to
success = the absence of the fear of failure