Topic: Charlie Hebdo massacres. One year on.

[RedGuy]

Looks like another beheading in France today, what the hell

[Yorkykopite]

Looks like another beheading in France today, what the hell

Erdogan has blood on his hands now. Fucking snowflake.

"Allahu Akbar" - probably the most frightening words anyone could hear in a public place.

Vive la France.

[Red-Soldier]

Another very sad day.

Religious authoritarianism/extremeism has no place in a progressive society.

[Bobsackamano]

Difficult to see where this ends.

Either France agrees to abandon freedom of speech or the adhearants to the Muslim religion in France accept freedom of speech.

I dont see either moving their position so this will go on and on and get worse. Significantly worse.

[PhilV]

Difficult to see where this ends.

Either France agrees to abandon freedom of speech or the adhearants to the Muslim religion in France accept freedom of speech.

I dont see either moving their position so this will go on and on and get worse. Significantly worse.

I would say France has to stand firm here, they have these core values, it is part of being French. All these people committing these crimes are doing is further alienating themselves from a society which either welcome them or they already grew up in, which makes you think how removed from normal/local cultural values they may have been.

Really sad this, I always get so confused as to how someone can kill someone over such a stupid reason like drawing a religious figure.

[Bobsackamano]

Really sad this, I always get so confused as to how someone can kill someone over such a stupid reason like drawing a religious figure.

People have been butchering each other in the name of religion for thousands of years. Its not new and it should not be surprising.

In the West we have largely forgotten this as we have had our religions under control for a long time so have not had to put up with it.

I really do fear this will be the start of major upheavels within France that could be quite devastating. No western country can tolerate people being beheaded in the street in the name of religion.

[zero zero]

I really do fear this will be the start of major upheavels within France that could be quite devastating. No western country can tolerate people being beheaded in the street in the name of religion.

When Lee Rigby was murdered in South London, how would you characterise the country's reaction?

[Ashburton]

Difficult to see where this ends.

Either France agrees to abandon freedom of speech or the adhearants to the Muslim religion in France accept freedom of speech.

I dont see either moving their position so this will go on and on and get worse. Significantly worse.

It's remarkable how many Islamic influential types are coming out against France for defending what is a core value for them.  These attacks were committed on French soil, and it beggars belief that the expectation that the French would throw aside their free speech to appease these knife-wielding terrorists.

[Bobsackamano]

When Lee Rigby was murdered in South London, how would you characterise the country's reaction?

Not happy

[ScouserAtHeart]

Just read it was in/near a church too. Awful.

[Yorkykopite]

Just read it was in/near a church too. Awful.

These Islamist fanatics are trying to start a Holy War. I'm sure they'll probably be able to find the appropriate verse in the Koran to justify that objective.

But France will not compromise an inch. It can't afford to. It would no longer be France if it did. Moreover France will continue to guarantee religious freedom and civil rights for everyone, including (obviously) Muslims - which is more than you can say for every Islamic theocracy that's ever existed.

[So… Howard Philips]

These Islamist fanatics are trying to start a Holy War. I'm sure they'll probably be able to find the appropriate verse in the Koran to justify that objective.

But France will not compromise an inch. It can't afford to. It would no longer be France if it did. Moreover France will continue to guarantee religious freedom and civil rights for everyone, including (obviously) Muslims - which is more than you can say for every Islamic theocracy that's ever existed.

And France's neutral religious stance and freedom of speech is based on the role the Catholic church played in maintaining the Monarchy and it's constant interference in politics post revolution so I can't see the Government or mainstream French society giving in either.

[PhilV]

People have been butchering each other in the name of religion for thousands of years. Its not new and it should not be surprising.

True, but generally that was always for further goals such as territory, power, or indeed the spread of said religion which again = power.

This and other example are literally pure lunacy as it is killing someone over a sketch/drawing/doodle - I personally have never encountered someone with such extreme views, its mad.

[Bobsackamano]

True, but generally that was always for further goals such as territory, power, or indeed the spread of said religion which again = power.

This and other example are literally pure lunacy as it is killing someone over a sketch/drawing/doodle - I personally have never encountered someone with such extreme views, its mad.

It is an exercise in power, control and coercion through violence.

The violence is intended to punish France for not giving into the Islamists on free speech. Its aim is to make them turn away from the freedoms they see as fundamental to their society under the threat of public beheadings. This is in France, now. In the 21st century.

[PhilV]

It is an exercise in power, control and coercion through violence.

The violence is intended to punish France for not giving into the Islamists on free speech. Its aim is to make them turn away from the freedoms they see as fundamental to their society under the threat of public beheadings. This is in France, now. In the 21st century.

Mad, maybe it's because they know France is soft so to say.

In China, the moving of thousands of Muslims into concentration camps, the same in Myanmar I believe where they were driven out, not a peep from Muslim leaders, but Ergodan comes out and boycott France is now a thing because they allow freedom of speech.

Maybe this is the only way to deal with Terrorists going forward: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-01-07-mn-13892-story.html

It's sad, really sad because when you are extremely tolerant you allow the intolerant to prosper and threaten that free society, such a catch 22!

[Bobsackamano]

Mad, maybe it's because they know France is soft so to say.

It's sad, really sad because when you are extremely tolerant you allow the intolerant to prosper and threaten that free society, such a catch 22!

If they think that France is soft however thats a strategic mistake. Its happening in France because they actually have freedom of speech and the seperation of religion and state.

In other countries like our own there is a more complicated relationship between religion and state with certain faiths already having certain undue influences within the government. This allows greater flexibility incorporating the demands of other religions.

[J_Kopite]

I don't think that the name of Simone Barretto Silva has been mentioned on RAWK.



A carer and mother murdered by fascists and no one on here will even "say her name". George Floyd, killed in similar cold blood, has a thread with thousands of posts - what's the difference?

[So… Howard Philips]

I don't think that the name of Simone Barretto Silva has been mentioned on RAWK.



A carer and mother murdered by fascists and no one on here will even "say her name". George Floyd, killed in similar cold blood, has a thread with thousands of posts - what's the difference?

I don't think there is any particular reason why Silva's name isn't been mentioned as, sadly, the names of terrorist victims get lost. I suppose with George Floyd being killed by the legal authorities rather than a criminal extremist organisation gets more notice?

I grew up during the NI troubles and could probably name half a dozen IRA/UVF murderers and virtually no victims.
 

[J_Kopite]

A priest has now been shot in Lyon.

[dalarr]

I see no end to this. How can Islam and free speech coexist at all? It’s very depressing.

[Bobsackamano]

A priest has now been shot in Lyon.

That one may not be a terrorist related incident. They are looking at a possible dispute within the Greek Orthodox community in Lyon.

[Yorkykopite]

I see no end to this. How can Islam and free speech coexist at all? It’s very depressing.

They can co-exist - at least in non-Muslim countries. The record in Muslim countries is depressing, I agree. Either outright theocracies or notional democracies like Pakistan where religious mobs often take the law into their own hands. But in the West things are obviously much better. Muslim worship is protected and free speech still exists.

The important thing now is to make sure that Muslims remain protected. But also the right to take the piss out of the Koran is protected too.

Long live Charlie.

[FlashGordon]

I don't think that the name of Simone Barretto Silva has been mentioned on RAWK.



A carer and mother murdered by fascists and no one on here will even "say her name". George Floyd, killed in similar cold blood, has a thread with thousands of posts - what's the difference?

What's your point?

[Red-Soldier]

What's your point?

He's Islamophobic.  Has a real issue with muslims.

[Hendollama]

He's Islamophobic.  Has a real issue with muslims.

There are a few in this thread.

[J_Kopite]

He's Islamophobic.  Has a real issue with muslims.

Er, why would you say that?  I certainly take issue with people who want to behead those who mock religion, are you telling me that's Muslims as a group? Because I dont think it is.

There are a few in this thread.

Who are they?

Crying "Islamophobia" is a convenient way to avoid talking about the issue though.

[Garrus]

Floyd was killed by an officer of the law while this poor lady was murdered by a terrorist. It doesn't have to be a contest. Both deaths were awful but surely not comparable in context.

[J_Kopite]

Floyd was killed by an officer of the law while this poor lady was murdered by a terrorist. It doesn't have to be a contest. Both deaths were awful but surely not comparable in context.

I wasn't trying to make it one, I just found it depressing that we didn't have a single post about her. Surely these things are worthy of equal outrage!

[FlashGordon]

I wasn't trying to make it one, I just found it depressing that we didn't have a single post about her. Surely these things are worthy of equal outrage!

You can be outraged about it. You can post about it. Others aren't obliged to post about it. Just like people aren't obliged to post about George Floyd. They just decided to do it. It's not a competition.

[Yorkykopite]

There are a few in this thread.

You probably need to name them mate, because otherwise everyone will be thinking "he means me". You'll probably need to say why, too.

[J_Kopite]

You can be outraged about it. You can post about it. Others aren't obliged to post about it. Just like people aren't obliged to post about George Floyd. They just decided to do it. It's not a competition.

I think you'll find I already observed and mentioned this, I find it weird what priorities people have. Like she's not worthy of thousands of posts.

[FlashGordon]

I understand that, observed it and mentioned it, it's a weird what priorities people have.

No it's not, what's weird is the fact you needed to mention it. If you really wanted to shine a light on the woman who lost her life that's what you would have done. Instead you used her death to make some cheap comparison to George Floyd to score some points. Still not sure what you actually meant by it but that's okay.

[Hendollama]

Who are they?

Crying "Islamophobia" is a convenient way to avoid talking about the issue though.

Well, you seem to be one. Though, you know best about yourself. 
There's no crying going on around here. A few of us just called what seemed to be a spade, a spade.

[J_Kopite]

Well, you seem to be one. Though, you know best about yourself. 
There's no crying going on around here. A few of us just called what seemed to be a spade, a spade.

No explanation then? You just threw label at me after being offended what by I said - classic.

[Yorkykopite]

No explanation then? You just threw label at me after being offended what by I said - classic.

Indeed, that's the only thing that can be deduced from what he/she posted.

Like most other liberals, I want the full weight of the law behind Muslims in Britain to exercise their right believe whatever nonsense they want to believe. I want the same for Jews and Christians and all other religions too. I also want severe penalties for anyone who tries to intimidate them or stop them by force. As it happens I also love living in a multi-racial country and would welcome more immigrants, including Muslims, to our shores. I especially feel we have an obligation to help those who are escaping from theocracies like Iran or bloody dictatorships like Syria or wannabe dictatorships like Turkey at the moment.

But I also want the rights of free expression preserved. Including the right to mock and ridicule and the right to leave a religion, free from the threat of physical violence. The bottom line is that Britain wouldn't Britain and France wouldn't be France if we abandoned these ancient and hard-fought for rights.

If that makes me an Islamophobe then the phrase means nothing.

[TipTopKop]

Free speech is a wonderful thing, if it's applied uniformly.

Charlie Hebdo add nothing constructive to a debate. They're good at baiting people, and inciting nutters that can/do exist within All elements of society: they troll.

But what do they Really contribute to the wider conversation? that they have a right to free speech and express their democratic values as such?

Really? then have the courage of your conviction and mock Everyone. Gays, Muslims, Blacks, Jews, Trans, Disabled, Women, Whites.

Everyone. That is free speech.

I have no tolerance for terrorism, or killing of innocents. If caught alive, these monsters should be arrested and punished.

But you'll excuse me if I don't hold these trolls as the vanguard of freedom of expression and democracy.

When you marginalise and mock the beliefs of one group, then go all shy when it comes to others then the free speech values they claim to hold are just their definition of free speech.

All Charlie Hebdo ever do is provide a platform for nutters to exact their psycho behaviours, and then as a backlash it gets every closet Islamophobe/racist to hand wring and get their own vile poison out in response.

[Yorkykopite]

Free speech is a wonderful thing, if it's applied uniformly.

Charlie Hebdo add nothing constructive to a debate. They're good at baiting people, and inciting nutters that can/do exist within All elements of society: they troll.

But what do they Really contribute to the wider conversation? that they have a right to free speech and express their democratic values as such?

Really? then have the courage of your conviction and mock Everyone. Gays, Muslims, Blacks, Jews, Trans, Disabled, Women, Whites.

Everyone. That is free speech.

I have no tolerance for terrorism, or killing of innocents. If caught alive, these monsters should be arrested and punished.

But you'll excuse me if I don't hold these trolls as the vanguard of freedom of expression and democracy.

When you marginalise and mock the beliefs of one group, then go all shy when it comes to others then the free speech values they claim to hold are just their definition of free speech.

All Charlie Hebdo ever do is provide a platform for nutters to exact their psycho behaviours, and then as a backlash it gets every closet Islamophobe/racist to hand wring and get their own vile poison out in response.

"Free speech' isn't obliged to be "constructive". In fact, can you imagine the absurdity of a situation where the courts were left to decide what was 'constructive' and what was not? You'd hate it. I'd hate it. We all would (apart from some power-crazed judges!).

Voltaire's barbs and lampoons at the Catholic church were not constructive either, by the way. They were downright destructive. But thank the Spaghetti Monster in the Sky, he did them. We've all benefited. Which just goes to show that what can appear destructive in the short term can have wonderfully constructive consequences in the long.

And, finally, since we are talking right now about Islamist beheadings in Paris and France, let me ask you about the teacher, Samuel Paty. Do you think what he was doing - explaining to students the debate around free speech and letting them know the conflicting issues at stake in the Charlie Hebdo massacre - wasn't constructive?

[Jiminy Cricket]

Really? then have the courage of your conviction and mock Everyone. Gays, Muslims, Blacks, Jews, Trans, Disabled, Women, Whites.

Everyone. That is free speech.

Urgh. Bloody hell. The very obvious difference being that those within the groups you listed are what they are. Whereas, whatever nonsense individuals might choose to offer up (such as their religious beliefs, conspiracy theories, etc.) is rightly ripe for ridicule. Inerrant characteristics of individuals is not 'fair game'.

[TipTopKop]

And, finally, since we are talking right now about Islamist beheadings in Paris and France, let me ask you about the teacher, Samuel Paty. Do you think what he was doing - explaining to students the debate around free speech and letting them know the conflicting issues at stake in the Charlie Hebdo massacre - wasn't constructive?

You're not going to get me to codone his killing because I don't. It was barbaric and senseless.

That said, there were a million ways he could have approached the topic without having to explicitly recycle the images. I understand he had warned students beforehand, and yet again I will say his death is unjustifiable.

But people have Google, they can access. I could have made his point without having to show the image.

Regardless, I'm not going to justify what took place as there is no justification. I am not so much interested in the aftermath as what caused it and the inconsistency with which it is practised.

Either everything is fair game, or it isn't.

Urgh. Bloody hell. The very obvious difference being that those within the groups you listed are what they are. Whereas, whatever nonsense individuals might choose to offer up (such as their religious beliefs, conspiracy theories, etc.) is rightly ripe for ridicule. Inerrant characteristics of individuals is not 'fair game'.

A religious belief may appear to be 'nonsense' to you, to others it isn't. To them Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam etc is a way of life and forms a core part of their identity.

You've just made up the rules of what constitutes as free speech. You've drawn your own boundaries of what is acceptable and what isn't.

[Hendollama]

Depressing but not surprising, which is in turn very depressing.

Long live Charlie Hebdo and the right to portray and ridicule.

It seems to me like you feared that Muslims would commit a heinous murder. Which I assumed to mean that you were afraid of Muslims as violent people. I saw that as Islamophobic.

A priest has now been shot in Lyon.

This was posted without context. This whole thread has been about the Cartoons and the attacks. Everyone probably automatically assumed that this was another crime committed by a Muslim. There is no evidence of that as of yet. What do you expect me to think of the poster of such news in this particular thread, when there is no context?

But you say that you are not an islamophobe, so I stand corrected. I apologise for accusing you of Islamophobia. Perhaps, I am too emotional and less rational right now.