Topic: Andy Robertson (Andrew Henry Robertson MBE)

[Yanwoo]

A workaround would be summing up the xA of the individual players adjusted per minute to give the xA for the entire team. Another option would be to isolate Liverpools defensive players and compare their numbers to the numbers they were posting when they were playing elsewhere to see if there has been a tangible jump due to system and if it could be applied to incoming players.

Who defines what these metrics are? Is the data simply coming from video feeds where there are people sitting and collating it after the match or is the whole thing automated? I wonder if Liverpool is collecting their own external data or simply buying it from the third party who is creating all this

My guess is clubs buy data from providers and fuse with their own player GPS/performance/physiological data from wearables

[Flinstone]

One of the problem with any adjustments you make is that they are more likely to tell you nothing at all more than help shine a light on anything. For example, Liverpool under Klopp and Liverpool under Rodgers, statistically the teams look nothing alike. Likewise United under Mr Ferguson, Moyes, van Gaal, Mourinho. 1 team, 4 coaches, 4 different approaches. A defensive system from one coach can focus on tackles and interceptions - another can focus on blocking passes and recoveries. Likewise, a winger/full back can either be playing through sides or around sides, overlapping or holding position depending on his tactical instruction.

For example - Ted Knutsen, who knows far more about this than I ever will, adjusts players tackles and interception numbers for team possession. However, Spurs rank near the bottom in terms of both tackles and interceptions. Liverpool rank near the bottom in interceptions but midtable in terms of tackles. United and Arsenal rank near the top in both. The possession of the sides is pretty much the same. Which kinda indicates there is no correlation there at all - and that tackle & interception numbers are both a poor measurement in isolation in terms of how good a defender is, and also is more dependant on tactical instructions of the team than anything else. Whereas you look at something like blocked passes - something nobody really pays much attention to for rating players - and the highest ranking sides are the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool & Spurs (the sides who conceded the least shots in the league) and at the other end were the porous defences of Bournemouth, Stoke, Swansea and Sunderland.

Of course it's easier to look at attacking numbers than defensive ones but even then, for a full back, if they are a defensive full back who needs to maintain shape then they will never get into the positions Robertson was yesterday. If you watch the game back, watch how much freedom Robertson has to play his game with Milner filling in every time he went forward. A different game with say Can in front of him, you would see him go forward and Can just leaving a space there. The result would be he would either hurt us defensively or he would need to reign in those attacking instincts. So you have to look at Robertson & Milner as a combo yesterday - especially when you considered the top 2 biggest passing combinations in the game was Robertson to Milner and vice versa.

As for your other question, it's coming from Opta. No idea on the rest.

Makes sense, just ignore me then 

[BabuYagu]

My guess is clubs buy data from providers and fuse with their own player GPS/performance/physiological data from wearables

I believe Bayern collect all their own data.

[vanderpaart]

Lovely timing and arc to his runs, so easy to get caught offside on the inside runs especially where you're watching the ball and not the defensive line but he times them well and arrives onto the ball at a good enough pace to wrap his foot around it.

Be interesting to see him defensively at places like the Etihad where we might be pinned back for long spells but a really promising start. Problem finally solved?

[BabuYagu]

I suspect we will see a Spurs approach at full back this season with Clyne/TAA & Moreno/Robertson being rotated to stay fresh. TAA & Robertson against low blocks would be quite the partnership.

[Klippity Klopp]

I suspect we will see a Spurs approach at full back this season with Clyne/TAA & Moreno/Robertson being rotated to stay fresh. TAA & Robertson against low blocks would be quite the partnership.

I hope Gomez is considered as well, even when Clyne comes back.

His extra height could really be useful against certain types of teams.  I was calling him to play against Watford for that very reason, to help us deal with set plays.  He could have been in the area Firmino was for defending set plays for example.

I also think Milner should be considered as well, as he still might be the best defensive left back we have.  Hard to tell as it is early days with Robertson.

Nice to have lots of different options in those positions.

[BabuYagu]

I hope Gomez is considered as well, even when Clyne comes back.

His extra height could really be useful against certain types of teams.  I was calling him to play against Watford for that very reason, to help us deal with set plays.  He could have been in the area Firmino was for defending set plays for example.

I also think Milner should be considered as well, as he still might be the best defensive left back we have.  Hard to tell as it is early days with Robertson.

Nice to have lots of different options in those positions.

I think Milner's inability to explode might be the only reason he isn't. We will see though. At Dortmund Klopp tended to bin full backs at 30 for that reason.

[redmark]

I've done a roundtable going into more details which should go live tomorrow/Monday.

Are all the RT's going to be about left backs?

[BabuYagu]

Are all the RT's going to be about left backs?

It's up
https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=336318.0

It's my chosen specialist subject One I finish my look at full backs and start looking at midfielders, I might focus on Gini as he is taking a pasting at the moment on twitter it seems.

[wemmick]

It's up
https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=336318.0

It's my chosen specialist subject One I finish my look at full backs and start looking at midfielders, I might focus on Gini as he is taking a pasting at the moment on twitter it seems.

Please do. The success of Mane, Salah, Robertson, Moreno, and TAA so far is at least partially a result of Gini having no space in the center. Hard to convince anyone otherwise right now.

[joekim87]

Gonna get on the hype train and call him the next Baines.

[me76]

Fantastic debut.  Loved it!  Keep it up son.  SO so good to have someone with a great left foot and movement to accompany it.  Looks the business!

[idontknow]

Looked great on his first game, confident, thinking to go forward, and accurate with his passing. Scottish too, yeah !!!

[didi shamone]

Gonna get on the hype train and call him the next Baines.

McBain

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Gonna get on the hype train and call him the next Baines.

was thinking he reminded me a lot of baines at his peak

[redk84]

First time I've seen him play (im sure I saw him for Hull but can't claim to recall anything he did)

Excellent.

Early days and I want to see how he is defensively but after that display I'm happy enough with him in an attacking sense (touch wood). He offers what we need and has an engine on him.

Not short of confidence either to put himself about like that on his Anfield debut, looked like he wanted to impress!

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Club	Season	Minutes Played	Expected Assists
Liverpool	2017/18	90	1.21
Hull	2016/17	2,741	1.39
Hull	2014/15	1,528	1.07

Robertson just put up a full seasons expected assists numbers in one game.

And this is why you have to pity people who thought we had signed some average Joe based on his stats at a poor side.

I'm not saying he's the Scottish Roberto Carlos either, and I actually think he probably had a bad season last year by his previously high standards, but it's been obvious from watching him play over the years that he has a lot to offer going forward. That's largely because he's quick and intelligent enough to offer dangerous overlaps off-the-ball whilst talented enough to drive on the inside with the ball. Moreno only really offers the former and Milner the latter and that is why I am confident he will prove to be an upgrade on both should his defensive game continue to improve as he matures.

[Asam]

And this is why you have to pity people who thought we had signed some average Joe based on his stats at a poor side.

I'm not saying he's the Scottish Roberto Carlos either, and I actually think he probably had a bad season last year by his previously high standards, but it's been obvious from watching him play over the years that he has a lot to offer going forward. That's largely because he's quick and intelligent enough to offer dangerous overlaps off-the-ball whilst talented enough to drive on the inside with the ball. Moreno only really offers the former and Milner the latter and that is why I am confident he will prove to be an upgrade on both should his defensive game continue to improve as he matures.

It's the defensive side of the game that he needs most work on, he will have a lot of opportunity to show his attacking prowess but how good are his concentration levels? Will he be caught sleeping at set pieces? Is he good enough defending in a 1vs1?

[BabuYagu]

It's the defensive side of the game that he needs most work on, he will have a lot of opportunity to show his attacking prowess but how good are his concentration levels? Will he be caught sleeping at set pieces? Is he good enough defending in a 1vs1?

Depends if you see defending as a team job or not.

If you go back and watch Moreno & Can together, when Moreno goes forward, Can doesn't tuck in for him. In fact the best example is the penalty we conceded to Hoffenheim. Moreno closes down the keeper as he is nearest the ball when the move breaks down, this forces a rushed kick from the keeper. You then see Can jog from LB position into his CM position. The ball gets headed into the LB position to the free man who plays in Gnabry behind Lovren. Penalty.

In contrast there were similar moments at the weekend where Robertson bombed ahead of Milner and moves broke down. When the ball got cleared Milner had tucked in as LB for Robertson. One such time was the Benteke chance where Robertson presses his man high up the pitch completely vacating LB. Milner sees this happening and tucks in.

I mention this because we have a habit for criticising players, Moreno in particular, for being out of position. But for Klopp pressure on the ball is far more important. Without pressure on the ball, people can pick out runners with ease, especially against a high line that seems to have problems in reading when to drop (see 3-3 Palace goal, 1-2 Hoffenheim goal, the throughball before the Hoffenheim penalty etc).

Defending is a team responsibility and if someone moves ahead of you, you drop back into their position. There have been multiple times so far when Moreno presses the ball (e.g. Watford 2nd goal, Hoffenheim penalty) that Can leaves a player to run into the space Moreno vacates that he is actually marking.

My biggest criticism of Robertson defensively would be recovery runs. If you watch the Puncheon chance at the weekend for example he is having a light jog to get back. In fairness, he could have been exhausted at that point right before half time.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I've enjoyed watching and reading about this lad, especially since the game on Saturday. It was great to see so many quality balls going into the box.
What I've been thinking about is the extent to which our attack will need to adapt to this new source of chances.
Wijnaldum, who's taken some stick since the game has already proved last season that he has a nose for goal, could benefit by arriving late or running onto cleared crosses or knock downs.
Salah, I think could benefit from back post runs if he's playing from the right, obviously Mane if they've switched sides.
I think Firmino has already shown that he can score with his head and when he gets fully up to speed with Robertson may also benefits.
The only other things I'd like to see in general is a greater willingness to either make a run and gamble on the ball being delivered, and more runs across the front of defenders.

[JaimeREDnapz]

early days but his delivery looks superb - quick and nice whip on it.

really really impressed me with that performance, excited to see him develop.

[Buck Pete]

Do you think he's earned a start on Wednesday?

I do

[BabuYagu]

Do you think he's earned a start on Wednesday?

I do

It might not be about "earned". If the problem is his fitness levels up until this game, and he was exhausted after the game, Klopp will go with the fresh Moreno. In fact based on what Robertson has said himself, I suspect that will be the case.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Do you think he's earned a start on Wednesday?

I do

He needs the chance to show what he can do over a number of games, this game might be ideal as we'll be doing a lot more defending than we did against Palace, but it also carries a lot of risk because of that.

For me we already know what Moreno is like defensively, let's give Robertson a chance.   

[The Test]

I feel like our central players are going to find football easier in general this season. A yard more space here, a free man to aim for there. Must be so dull having every shit team and manager rocking up to anfield, chests puffed out, certain that if they keep their shape well they'll get at least a point. You'd hope our new wide options will swiftly make that game plan redundant so teams have to come with some other strategy.

[BabuYagu]

I feel like our central players are going to find football easier in general this season. A yard more space here, a free man to aim for there. Must be so dull having every shit team and manager rocking up to anfield, chests puffed out, certain that if they keep their shape well they'll get at least a point. You'd hope our new wide options will swiftly make that game plan redundant so teams have to come with some other strategy.

You plug Coutinho/Keita/Lallana into that team from Saturday and I suspect you would start tearing teams to pieces at times.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I feel like our central players are going to find football easier in general this season. A yard more space here, a free man to aim for there. Must be so dull having every shit team and manager rocking up to anfield, chests puffed out, certain that if they keep their shape well they'll get at least a point. You'd hope our new wide options will swiftly make that game plan redundant so teams have to come with some other strategy.

You should give that memo to Wijnaldum 

[The Test]

You plug Coutinho/Keita/Lallana into that team from Saturday and I suspect you would start tearing teams to pieces at times.

Indeed. Feels a bit like a Riera moment, where we didn't need anything world class, just a good player in his position to come in and provide something that was sorely lacking in the team.

[The Test]

You should give that memo to Wijnaldum 

  anything to see Gini smile.

[Black Bull Nova]

I think we should have paid £40m to Hull for him, if we had then a lot more people would be raving about him, Pogba style, everytime he did something half decent.

[Purple Red]

I think we should have paid £40m to Hull for him, if we had then a lot more people would be raving about him, Pogba style, everytime he did something half decent.

Pogba never does anything half decent though so Robertson already has the advantage there.

[Paul_h]

Early days I know, but what a steal he is looking at 8-10m...

TAA and Robertson with Solanke = goals ! especially against the defensive, low block teams..

Also, good to have a Scot in the team..

[iAnfieldRoad]

Great performance from robbo and that is how he plays for scotland all the time never lets us down.Long may it continue and great to hear a scottish accent at anfield again.

[Klippity Klopp]

[princeoftherocks]

Great performance from robbo and that is how he plays for scotland all the time never lets us down.Long may it continue and great to hear a scottish accent at anfield again.

fuckin' aye!  I was just wondering whether we could have hidden our true intent of signing robertson by making "enquiries" about other left-backs. 

[mattD]

£8 million in todays market? Just an absolute bargain, and as a Scot myself, it's great to hear that accent at Anfield again (Charlie Adam is disowned by us!).

Looks an absolute steal. Hopefully Solanke is similar, hopefully providing us more strength in depth than we first anticipated.

[princeoftherocks]

£8 million in todays market? Just an absolute bargain, and as a Scot myself, it's great to hear that accent at Anfield again (Charlie Adam is disowned by us!).

Looks an absolute steal. Hopefully Solanke is similar, hopefully providing us more strength in depth than we first anticipated.

why?

[Mighty_Red]

Depends if you see defending as a team job or not.

If you go back and watch Moreno & Can together, when Moreno goes forward, Can doesn't tuck in for him. In fact the best example is the penalty we conceded to Hoffenheim. Moreno closes down the keeper as he is nearest the ball when the move breaks down, this forces a rushed kick from the keeper. You then see Can jog from LB position into his CM position. The ball gets headed into the LB position to the free man who plays in Gnabry behind Lovren. Penalty.

In contrast there were similar moments at the weekend where Robertson bombed ahead of Milner and moves broke down. When the ball got cleared Milner had tucked in as LB for Robertson. One such time was the Benteke chance where Robertson presses his man high up the pitch completely vacating LB. Milner sees this happening and tucks in.

I mention this because we have a habit for criticising players, Moreno in particular, for being out of position. But for Klopp pressure on the ball is far more important. Without pressure on the ball, people can pick out runners with ease, especially against a high line that seems to have problems in reading when to drop (see 3-3 Palace goal, 1-2 Hoffenheim goal, the throughball before the Hoffenheim penalty etc).

Defending is a team responsibility and if someone moves ahead of you, you drop back into their position. There have been multiple times so far when Moreno presses the ball (e.g. Watford 2nd goal, Hoffenheim penalty) that Can leaves a player to run into the space Moreno vacates that he is actually marking.

My biggest criticism of Robertson defensively would be recovery runs. If you watch the Puncheon chance at the weekend for example he is having a light jog to get back. In fairness, he could have been exhausted at that point right before half time.

This is exactly what I pointed out in the post match thread last Tuesday (albeit nowhere near as analytical or indepth as you ). Yes Moreno does tend to drift off and lose his position, but the biggest thing we have lacked since Masch went is our CMs covering for our full backs. Can is going to have to add this discipline to his game if he wants to develop further as he is not creative enough to be in the side as an attacking midfielder who sometimes neglects his defensive duties (not that anyone should neglect their defensive duties in a Klopp side).

Either way, everything bodes well for Robertson at the moment, he has started well and is an instant upgrade on Moreno (who I still haven't lost all hope for yet) as long as he stays away from regular brain farts!

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

Fabio aurelio was decent, reliable, left footed but wasnt every day.

Risse was decent,unreliable,left footed(very) and everyday.

All the other left footers arent worth a mention and i'm born in 85 and i've never seen one as you described since I've supported Liverpool.

The irony is..

Our best left back in the past  25 years imo was arberloa at left back. Second is james milner.

Both right footers..hmmm.

i know riise wasn't amazing but he surey gets ahead of milner? for his free kicks alone maybe

[OperationIvy]

Love the way this guy shapes his body when putting in a cross. Completely wraps round the ball. Plenty of whip and unlikely to go out of play.