Topic: The War In Afghanistan

[Yorkykopite]

Are there any bigger scumbags in the world than the Taliban? I hope not.

They hate everything which makes the world wonderful - including art, music, sport, culture and....laughter.

Here is Nazar Mohammed, the most famous Afghan comedian, moments after his seizure by the Taliban scumbags. He's now dead.

https://twitter.com/omid9/status/1420298973999472642

[Sangria]

The bastard lovechild of the House of Saud and Uncle Sam.

The brilliant and immeasurably brave Malalai Joya got it right IMO - the US totally messed-up the after-invasion part. Instead of eradicating the scourge of oppressive medievalism that was represented by the twin-evils of the Taliban and the tribal/feudal system, the US invited warlords/tribal leaders to form the government.

Totally corrupt, murderous, zealous and self-interested scum who had been part of the savage regimes that brutally subjugated Afghan citizens - women especially - were not only allowed to remain living, but given positions of power in government by Washington.

The result would always be either the US/NATO remains in Afghanistan ad infinitum, or they leave and the scum recommence their attempts to take total control.

The priorities of the US - if it had any notion of wanting to bring democracy and some kind of longer term stability - should have been to 1) eradicate the feudal system that heartbreakingly still persists outside of urban areas; and 2) use education to reduce the power of the sky-fairy bullshit that is Islam.

Whilst the feudal overlords/tribal 'leaders' and Imams have control over the rural masses, Afghanis will never be free to live liberal lives.

Don't just blame Uncle Sam. In that cricket forum I've referred to elsewhere, there are Pakistani posters being absolutely scathing about the Taliban. And there are British Pakistanis making all manner of excuses for the Taliban and their piety.

The US could have done more to bed in liberalism in Afghanistan. But there are a load of Asian Muslims in liberal countries who would have blamed them for staying longer, as modern day imperialists. With the latter being so comfortable with religious conservatism in their liberal societies, western liberal countries would never have been allowed to shape Afghanistan in their desired image. Afghans don't vote in western elections.

[Red-Soldier]

Such a beautiful and interesting country.

Shame.

[Nobby Reserve]

Don't just blame Uncle Sam. In that cricket forum I've referred to elsewhere, there are Pakistani posters being absolutely scathing about the Taliban. And there are British Pakistanis making all manner of excuses for the Taliban and their piety.

The US could have done more to bed in liberalism in Afghanistan. But there are a load of Asian Muslims in liberal countries who would have blamed them for staying longer, as modern day imperialists. With the latter being so comfortable with religious conservatism in their liberal societies, western liberal countries would never have been allowed to shape Afghanistan in their desired image. Afghans don't vote in western elections.

The Taliban (and Al Qaeda) spawned from the Mujahidin, who are wrongly portrayed as heroic freedom fighters against invading Soviet scum.

The socialist, socially-progressive government in Afghanistan - which brought women's equal rights, universal education, land reforms, etc - were fighting a civil war against terrorists comprising mainly rural people under the control of feudal overlords and hardline Imams, who were opposed to soviet attempts to obliterate the feudal system and secularise a country plagued with medievalist oppression.

These terrorists were armed by the US, funded by Saudi and other oil dictatorships, and trained/radicalised in Pakistan madrasas to fight a proxy war against the government in Afghanistan, because that government had ties to Moscow.

The Afghan government made repeated pleas to Moscow for military aid but, apart from sending in a few thousand 'military advisors', Moscow wasn't willing to get pulled into what it correctly feared would be a 'Russian Vietnam'. It was only after [inevitable? sadly, probably] infighting amongst the leftists in Kabul that threatened to allow a bunch of radicalised medievalist sky-fairy worshippers to sweep the country and be a threat on the border of the USSR (in the region where there was already anti-Moscow sentiment in the '-stan' states) that Moscow finally ordered the 'invasion'.

Out of all that shitshow emerged the fucking scumbag nutcases of the Taliban and Al Qaeda - as I say, the lovechilds of Uncle Sam, the House of Saud, and the Pakistan ISI.

We reap what we sow.

[Sangria]

The Taliban (and Al Qaeda) spawned from the Mujahidin, who are wrongly portrayed as heroic freedom fighters against invading Soviet scum.

The socialist, socially-progressive government in Afghanistan - which brought women's equal rights, universal education, land reforms, etc - were fighting a civil war against terrorists comprising mainly rural people under the control of feudal overlords and hardline Imams, who were opposed to soviet attempts to obliterate the feudal system and secularise a country plagued with medievalist oppression.

These terrorists were armed by the US, funded by Saudi and other oil dictatorships, and trained/radicalised in Pakistan madrasas to fight a proxy war against the government in Afghanistan, because that government had ties to Moscow.

The Afghan government made repeated pleas to Moscow for military aid but, apart from sending in a few thousand 'military advisors', Moscow wasn't willing to get pulled into what it correctly feared would be a 'Russian Vietnam'. It was only after [inevitable? sadly, probably] infighting amongst the leftists in Kabul that threatened to allow a bunch of radicalised medievalist sky-fairy worshippers to sweep the country and be a threat on the border of the USSR (in the region where there was already anti-Moscow sentiment in the '-stan' states) that Moscow finally ordered the 'invasion'.

Out of all that shitshow emerged the fucking scumbag nutcases of the Taliban and Al Qaeda - as I say, the lovechilds of Uncle Sam, the House of Saud, and the Pakistan ISI.

We reap what we sow.

That's in the past. We know now that it was a mistake. What I can't stand is those, who've either moved here or are descended from those who moved here, who enjoy the liberal society they live in, who speak up for a conservatism in the old country that they'd never tolerate in their own lives.

Hence the difference between Pakistanis, who have to live with the consequences of the Taliban taking over Afghanistan, who are scathing about these religious nutters, and British Pakistanis, who are always the first to take offence at any impugning of their own individual liberties, a number of whom are speaking up for the Taliban. We can't change the (relatively) distant past. But the post-2003 intervention could never have succeeded with these armchair religious conservatives taking advantage of the liberal countries they live in. See Batley for an example of politicians playing to this electorate.

[scatman]

That's in the past. We know now that it was a mistake. What I can't stand is those, who've either moved here or are descended from those who moved here, who enjoy the liberal society they live in, who speak up for a conservatism in the old country that they'd never tolerate in their own lives.

Hence the difference between Pakistanis, who have to live with the consequences of the Taliban taking over Afghanistan, who are scathing about these religious nutters, and British Pakistanis, who are always the first to take offence at any impugning of their own individual liberties, a number of whom are speaking up for the Taliban. We can't change the (relatively) distant past. But the post-2003 intervention could never have succeeded with these armchair religious conservatives taking advantage of the liberal countries they live in. See Batley for an example of politicians playing to this electorate.

I have a friend from Karachi living here and he absolutely hates British Pakistanis and describes the majority of them as backwards. Above is the reason why. He gets pretty heated about it. Seeing that video about the comedian was heartbreaking.

[OOS]

Each passing day, Taliban taking hold of more provincial regional capitals. Some of the reporting, especially from brave women journalists have been harrowing. What an utter clusterfuck of a situation. Such a complex and messy history and present.

People are quick to moan about the UK, but my God, we are lucky to live in such a stable society. Our political squabbles don't come anything close to whats happening over there. Makes me appreciate democracy, rule of law and how important it is to protect them.

[Jiminy Cricket]

I think this a very serious mistake for the US to leave. The only argument for leaving seems to be, if not now, when? The problems with Afghanistan seem intractable, and I could see the US having remain their indefinitely (many more decades at least). But, once the US decided to not just give the Taliban a bloody nose for providing sanctuary and support to Bin Laden, and stay there for 20 years, they rather own the situation and - I feel - duty and morally bound to help support the government and its people.

This is the first serious mistake by the Bide administration and for all kinds of reasons.

[Sangria]

I think this a very serious mistake for the US to leave. The only argument for leaving seems to be, if not now, when? The problems with Afghanistan seem intractable, and I could see the US having remain their indefinitely (many more decades at least). But, once the US decided to not just give the Taliban a bloody nose for providing sanctuary and support to Bin Laden, and stay there for 20 years, they rather own the situation and - I feel - duty and morally bound to help support the government and its people.

This is the first serious mistake by the Bide administration and for all kinds of reasons.

What would Muslim voters in the US make of the US remaining in Afghanistan? We've seen that a substantial number in the UK would call it imperialism.

[kavah]

Are there any bigger scumbags in the world than the Taliban? I hope not.

They hate everything which makes the world wonderful - including art, music, sport, culture and....laughter.

Here is Nazar Mohammed, the most famous Afghan comedian, moments after his seizure by the Taliban scumbags. He's now dead. ...

Bloody hell, what scumbags they are

[jambutty]

Imo Muslims must solve Islamic problems.

The only thing that ever unites tribes (for a moment) is against infidels telling them what to do.

There will be bloodbaths and starvation everywhere.

There is no leader, none know how to govern, only destroy.

[Jiminy Cricket]

What would Muslim voters in the US make of the US remaining in Afghanistan? We've seen that a substantial number in the UK would call it imperialism.

What Muslin citizens of Afghanistan think of the US military leaving is probably more to the point.

[Sangria]

What Muslin citizens of Afghanistan think of the US military leaving is probably more to the point.

Muslim citizens in Afghanistan don't vote for US politicians. I don't know what their composition is in the US, but Muslims in the UK derive mainly from Pakistan, and we've seen there is substantial traction in the anti-imperialist line, and not just amongst Muslims. If some domestic Muslims stand up and denounce the left of centre government for attempting neo-imperialist foreign policy, don't you think that more than a few liberals would take up this line too? We've seen it happen here in the UK.

Staying in Afghanistan fractures the left politically, and leaves the way clear for the right.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Muslim citizens in Afghanistan don't vote for US politicians. I don't know what their composition is in the US, but Muslims in the UK derive mainly from Pakistan, and we've seen there is substantial traction in the anti-imperialist line, and not just amongst Muslims. If some domestic Muslims stand up and denounce the left of centre government for attempting neo-imperialist foreign policy, don't you think that more than a few liberals would take up this line too? We've seen it happen here in the UK.

Staying in Afghanistan fractures the left politically, and leaves the way clear for the right.

I am making a moral argument here, not a (UK or US) (party) political one. The US decided they were going to stay for the long haul - they own it; and they own what happens when they leave.

[Sangria]

I am making a moral argument here, not a (UK or UK) (party) political one. The US decided they were going to stay for the long haul - they own it; and the they own what happens when they leave.

The moral argument against the brutal Taliban is a strong one. The moral argument against the brutal Saddam Hussein was also a strong one. Blair did what he thought was the right thing for the people of Iraq. The left in the UK are now paying the price. Is it worth permanently ensconcing the right in the US for Afghanistan?

[Jiminy Cricket]

The moral argument against the brutal Taliban is a strong one. The moral argument against the brutal Saddam Hussein was also a strong one. Blair did what he thought was the right thing for the people of Iraq. The left in the UK are now paying the price. Is it worth permanently ensconcing the right in the US for Afghanistan?

I am not making a moral or political argument for the US entering Afghanistan. It was inevitable that US would retaliate, and could be argued, they had to. For them to have not responded would have probably invited similar attacks. But, they are there now, and have been for 20 years. Much of the country has been relatively stable and much, MUCH safer for its citizens. It is clear that those areas which are/were under governmental control did not wish to see the country abandoned by the US to their Taliban fate.

This has nothing to do with Iraq - different country, different time, and with different, relatively (very) poor arguments for military engagement*.

* Understatement.

[Sangria]

I am not making a moral or political argument for the US entering Afghanistan. It was inevitable that US would retaliate, and could be argued, they had to. For them to have not responded would have probably invited similar attacks. But, they are there now, and have been for 20 years. Much of the country has been relatively stable and much, MUCH safer for its citizens. It is clear that those areas which are/were under governmental control did not wish to see the country abandoned by the US to their Taliban fate.

This has nothing to do with Iraq - different country, different time, and with different, relatively (very) poor arguments for military engagement*.

* Understatement.

The domestic political arguments have little to do with the arguments about military engagement. If one was directly derived from the other, the US wouldn't have lost the Vietnam War.

Like I said, maybe things are different in the US; I only know in detail of the political atmosphere here in the UK. But if the UK were to remain in Afghanistan, if British Muslims were to accuse a left of centre UK government of pursuing neo-colonialist foreign policy, many liberals would leap onto it. Are the interventionist left prepared to permanently leave the coast clear for the right over Afghanistan?

[Nobby Reserve]

I think this a very serious mistake for the US to leave. The only argument for leaving seems to be, if not now, when? The problems with Afghanistan seem intractable, and I could see the US having remain their indefinitely (many more decades at least). But, once the US decided to not just give the Taliban a bloody nose for providing sanctuary and support to Bin Laden, and stay there for 20 years, they rather own the situation and - I feel - duty and morally bound to help support the government and its people.

This is the first serious mistake by the Bide administration and for all kinds of reasons.

It was shite policy by the US from the outset.

They had a heavy military presence in the country but changed nothing of the underlying fuckwittery that exists.

They neither sough to eradicate the Taliban and the warlords, nor sought to help ('persuade') the Afghan government to reform the whole feudal system that creates the environment for the evil bastards intent on subjugating everyone, and modernise the country, and taking [secular, liberal] education to rural areas.

Instead, they just dug in there, allowing the endemic corruption within the Afghan government to turn more and more people against it, and allowed the sort of vile 'warlord' scumbags that Malalai Joya pointed out in their Parliament to continue in positions of power.

So all the while the pieces of shit that are the Taliban were working away in rural areas to whip up support and eradicate their opponents. Then when the americans leave the Taliban are as strong as ever, rested and still being funded/armed by gobshites in Pakistan and the Gulf States to turn Afghanistan into a brutal, oppressive hellhole founded on sky fairy bellendery.

[RedSince86]

Grim AF watching the news the last 24 hours, yesterday BBC Sky CNN all had it as the headline story yesterday afternoon.

All the money spent, lives lost just to give it all back to the Taliban 20 years later on a plate.

I feel sorry for tall the families who lost loved ones who served over there, must be a case of what did they die for.

I also feel sorry for the Afghans, especially the Women there who are going to be subjugated to 7th century status again.

Crime of the century this pull out.

[Sangria]

It was shite policy by the US from the outset.

They had a heavy military presence in the country but changed nothing of the underlying fuckwittery that exists.

They neither sough to eradicate the Taliban and the warlords, nor sought to help ('persuade') the Afghan government to reform the whole feudal system that creates the environment for the evil bastards intent on subjugating everyone, and modernise the country, and taking [secular, liberal] education to rural areas.

Instead, they just dug in there, allowing the endemic corruption within the Afghan government to turn more and more people against it, and allowed the sort of vile 'warlord' scumbags that Malalai Joya pointed out in their Parliament to continue in positions of power.

So all the while the pieces of shit that are the Taliban were working away in rural areas to whip up support and eradicate their opponents. Then when the americans leave the Taliban are as strong as ever, rested and still being funded/armed by gobshites in Pakistan and the Gulf States to turn Afghanistan into a brutal, oppressive hellhole founded on sky fairy bellendery.

How would they do that without imposing themselves on, not just Afghanistan, but other Muslim states as well? One of the neocon daydreams was to democratise the countries surrounding Iran, starting with Afghanistan and Iraq, in order to effect change in Iran without directly acting. What you're suggesting would require much more direct action than the Anglo-Americans did in Afghanistan and Iraq, and would probably require direct rule of other Muslim countries too.

[Mumm-Ra]

How would they do that without imposing themselves on, not just Afghanistan, but other Muslim states as well? One of the neocon daydreams was to democratise the countries surrounding Iran, starting with Afghanistan and Iraq, in order to effect change in Iran without directly acting. What you're suggesting would require much more direct action than the Anglo-Americans did in Afghanistan and Iraq, and would probably require direct rule of other Muslim countries too.

There are some weird mental gymnastics at play here. Interventionist policy and regime change are bad, they'll never work...but if you do them, go all the way and completely change the culture and impose your way of living and governing at all levels, and never ever leave.

[Bobsackamano]

Is there actually a desire within the Afgan population for Taliban control? We in the west look at the Taliban and they seem so extreme its hard to fathom how anybody could support such (to my eyes) backward people.

However they were in charge before the yanks booted them out and its taken a matter of weeks since the US leaving for them to almost overrun the entire country.

Of course there are many Afgans who are fearful of them and we hear their fears though all of our media......however i ask myself the question, are we just hearing one side here? Is there a popular desire amongst many Afgans for the Taliban to rule?

Its difficult to believe they could roll over an entire country in the manner and speed they have if they were not actually supported by much of the population.

[TepidT2O]

Is there actually a desire within the Afgan population for Taliban control? We in the west look at the Taliban and they seem so extreme its hard to fathom how anybody could support such (to my eyes) backward people.

However they were in charge before the yanks booted them out and its taken a matter of weeks since the US leaving for them to almost overrun the entire country.

Of course there are many Afgans who are fearful of them and we hear their fears though all of our media......however i ask myself the question, are we just hearing one side here? Is there a popular desire amongst many Afgans for the Taliban to rule?

Its difficult to believe they could roll over an entire country in the manner and speed they have if they were not actually supported by much of the population.

I once taught some Afghan kids.  They had fled the country when the Taliban has slaughtered their entire family.  They escaped by hiding under the floor of their house.  This doesn’t seem to be an uncommon story

So, whilst there are of course a good number who support them, the majority are terrified of them.  And a minority can rule based on fear and violence.

[stevensr123]

Biden can go fuck himself to be honest, biggest mistake he will ever make. The guy has just undone everything people died for, and now more innocents will die. Blood on his hands.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Biden can go fuck himself to be honest, biggest mistake he will ever make. The guy has just undone everything people died for, and now more innocents will die. Blood on his hands.

Fuck all to do with Biden mate,the other twat signed it off and the Afghans said that they wanted them out.
,short of telling them to fuck off and becoming an occupying force there's nothing he could have done.

The way they pulled out was fucking shitty though.

[rob1966]

Biden can go fuck himself to be honest, biggest mistake he will ever make. The guy has just undone everything people died for, and now more innocents will die. Blood on his hands.

Trump signed the agreement with the Taliban to be out by May 2021, Biden pushed it back to August 31st.

[TepidT2O]

What amazes me, is that we had people out on the streets protesting about there being troops in Afghanistan.

But no one is protesting about their withdrawal and the supremacy of the brutal and heinously cruel theocracy that is taking their place

[Sangria]

What amazes me, is that we had people out on the streets protesting about there being troops in Afghanistan.

But no one is protesting about their withdrawal and the supremacy of the brutal and heinously cruel theocracy that is taking their place

They have to be consistent. If they want to blame Blair for invading Iraq, they can't very well support keeping troops in Afghanistan.

[TepidT2O]

They have to be consistent. If they want to blame Blair for invading Iraq, they can't very well support keeping troops in Afghanistan.

This is a totally different question from Iraq though (although just as complex).

[Sangria]

This is a totally different question from Iraq though (although just as complex).

Different pretext, but different units of the same whole. The neocon argument was to effect regime change in Iran by democratising the countries either side of it. Blair's approach was clearly to remove the bad guys and install a democracy, which was his foreign policy previously in Kosovo and Sierra Leone.

FWIW, I disagreed with Blair in his evangelism for liberal democracy (although the people on the ground in Kosovo and Sierra Leone obviously agreed with Blair and disagreed with me). Reading on the politics in the region from experts in the area, I thought Blair was deluded in his belief that democracy would come to the middle east as soon as the bad guys were removed.

That was as true in Afghanistan as it was in Iraq. Except I supported punitive action in Afghanistan as a necessary response to 9/11. But I never saw any real possibility of anything better beyond that. That would take more commitment than I saw ourselves being comfortable with. Although it's mildly ironic to see some people, who blamed Blair for sending troops to Iraq, blame the US for not committing to Afghanistan to a successful conclusion, even though such a conclusion would require way more direct action than they demonised Blair for.

[TepidT2O]

Different pretext, but different units of the same whole. The neocon argument was to effect regime change in Iran by democratising the countries either side of it. Blair's approach was clearly to remove the bad guys and install a democracy, which was his foreign policy previously in Kosovo and Sierra Leone.

FWIW, I disagreed with Blair in his evangelism for liberal democracy (although the people on the ground in Kosovo and Sierra Leone obviously agreed with Blair and disagreed with me). Reading on the politics in the region from experts in the area, I thought Blair was deluded in his belief that democracy would come to the middle east as soon as the bad guys were removed.

That was as true in Afghanistan as it was in Iraq. Except I supported punitive action in Afghanistan as a necessary response to 9/11. But I never saw any real possibility of anything better beyond that. That would take more commitment than I saw ourselves being comfortable with. Although it's mildly ironic to see some people, who blamed Blair for sending troops to Iraq, blame the US for not committing to Afghanistan to a successful conclusion, even though such a conclusion would require way more direct action than they demonised Blair for.

The trouble is, that the taliban aren’t a new concept. They aren’t down to Blair, Bush, other Bush, Reagan etc….

They’ve been there for a long time…. My grandfather narrowly escaped being killed by what was in essence the taliban in WWII, it was a constant battle to put them down.

So, I have no idea what the solution to this poor lad is, just that we shouldn’t be shrugging our shoulders and letting them brutalise women and literally anyone who doesn’t agree with them.

Depressing

[Sangria]

The trouble is, that the taliban aren’t a new concept. They aren’t down to Blair, Bush, other Bush, Reagan etc….

They’ve been there for a long time…. My grandfather narrowly escaped being killed by what was in essence the taliban in WWII, it was a constant battle to put them down.

So, I have no idea what the solution to this poor lad is, just that we shouldn’t be shrugging our shoulders and letting them brutalise women and literally anyone who doesn’t agree with them.

Depressing

The left has always been anti-imperialist. Even an anti-imperialist like Orwell recognised that this was part of the left's dogma. And in this post-colonialist world, the campaign against Empire has turned into an anticipation that the hated Anglo-Americans will always want to resume imperialism.

Reading a Pakistani forum populated by both natives and diaspora, a number of the British Pakistanis are extremely prone to pushing this argument (rather more so than native Pakistanis from the cities). That's where the determination to fight jihad in western democracies comes from. From other accounts here, it seems my observation isn't isolated, and even native Pakistanis from the cities think British Pakistanis over-eager to push these anti-west arguments.

We've already seen western liberals adopt the anti-imperialist argument, even before these western Muslims start piping up. What do you think will happen when the latter starts happening? Batley might be a preview.

[TSC]

https://www.euronews.com/2021/08/12/afghanistan-uk-and-us-to-send-troops-to-kabul-to-get-nationals-out-amid-taliban-onslaught

[TepidT2O]

This thread is terrific on the issues faced

https://twitter.com/tomtugendhat/status/1425919651469565955?s=21

[WhereAngelsPlay]

The trouble is, that the taliban aren’t a new concept. They aren’t down to Blair, Bush, other Bush, Reagan etc….

They’ve been there for a long time…. My grandfather narrowly escaped being killed by what was in essence the taliban in WWII, it was a constant battle to put them down.

So, I have no idea what the solution to this poor lad is, just that we shouldn’t be shrugging our shoulders and letting them brutalise women and literally anyone who doesn’t agree with them.

Depressing

They're absolutely to do with other Bush & his boss.

[TepidT2O]

They're absolutely to do with other Bush & his boss.

Should have added the word only…..

[Nobby Reserve]

Rural Afghanistan is a backwards, poorly-educated feudal system where sky-fairy worship is used as a tool to control the peasants, alongside a system of debt bondage.

The Afghan government in the 70s tried to smash this entire despicable system and the evil scum who run the Gulf oil states, along with the bumbling bellends of America, stopped that progression.

Until you eradicate the feudal system and educate the rural peasantry to hugely diminish religious dickheadery, the country will not evolve.

[Sangria]

Rural Afghanistan is a backwards, poorly-educated feudal system where sky-fairy worship is used as a tool to control the peasants, alongside a system of debt bondage.

The Afghan government in the 70s tried to smash this entire despicable system and the evil scum who run the Gulf oil states, along with the bumbling bellends of America, stopped that progression.

Until you eradicate the feudal system and educate the rural peasantry to hugely diminish religious dickheadery, the country will not evolve.

And how would you do that? Maoism? If you want to directly remove religion, you'll have to address it at source, ie. Saudi Arabia. What do you think will happen the moment you try to act in the home of Islam?

There are a number of ways that feudal Islam could have been suppressed in Afghanistan. It's not impossible. But which of those ways could you have stomached? And if you couldn't have stomached any of them, do these ways exist in any meaningful sense?

[jambutty]

Rural Afghanistan is a backwards, poorly-educated feudal system where sky-fairy worship is used as a tool to control the peasants, alongside a system of debt bondage.

The Afghan government in the 70s tried to smash this entire despicable system and the evil scum who run the Gulf oil states, along with the bumbling bellends of America, stopped that progression.

Until you eradicate the feudal system and educate the rural peasantry to hugely diminish religious dickheadery, the country will not evolve.

You left out the Russians.

(See Charlie Wilson's War)

[Sangria]

You left out the Russians.

(See Charlie Wilson's War)

Mark Edward Waugh was once upon a time nicknamed "Afghan".