Author Topic: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man  (Read 27316 times)

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Re: Why I'm standing by Luis Suarez
« Reply #120 on: December 29, 2011, 11:31:10 am »
Found that Rory Smith piece. In the interests of appearing truly balanced it limits itself from going as far as many of us might like. However, we might as well cry for the moon as hope for other journalists to aspire to its evenhandedness.

Hypocrisy: the English disease
by Rory Smith // 22 December 2011 // 136 Comments

Author’s note: This is not about Luis Suarez, or Liverpool, or the Football Association, or the rights and wrongs of the case which led to the striker being suspended for eight games and fined £40,000. Enough has been written on that subject by my peers and superiors in what might be termed the football commentariat; I have little of worth to add, on that subject, and, even as a Spanish speaker and a former inhabitant of South America, have no more qualification than most to do so.

What has struck me as remarkable, in the days since the verdict was announced, was how many people “know” what Suarez said, and even why he said it. This is quite a feat, when the evidence is bafflingly yet to be released. The debate remains one of impassioned ignorance. I do not wish to become embroiled in an uninformed discussion of fairness and unfairness, of claim and counter-claim. This is not about Suarez, or Liverpool, or the FA. It is about what it is to be English, and what the last few days have shown us about our nation.

I should, of course, declare a bias; not the one that has so polarised assessment of the case and of the judgment, between those who mindlessly admit no wrongdoing on the part of a hero and those who have sought to see a man labelled a racist simply so a rival football team might be deprived of their best player, but that of the self-loathing Englishman, and that of the Hispanophile, and that of the natural, inherent contrarian. All other considerations, I hope, have been removed.


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THE THREE white men sat in a room. The milky light of winter seeped through the windows. Realisation dawned in their minds. Before them was a case of the utmost complexity, but one they must unpick. They made unlikely arbiters of justice. A former football manager. The chairman of a local FA. A highly-regarded QC. Eminent in their diverse roles, of course, but now placed in a position understandably well beyond much of their experience.


Former Manchester United forward Diego Forlan with Uruguay team-mate Luis Suarez
The case was unprecedented: not just to them, but, as far as anyone in that room could tell, to anyone. On the surface, for all the investigation that had gone into it, it was simply one man’s word against another. Below that, at least in one interpretation, it was bound up with issues of cultural relativism it would require a scholar to explain.  These three men, the lawyer, the manager, the administrator, had been selected by cruel kismet to unpick the semantics, to navigate between the nuance, and to deliver a judgment.

What’s in a word? Whichever of the two words allegedly used, no natural equivalent exists in English. It has been used both as defence and prosecution that both the words – negro and negrito ­– might be used affectionately. Here, perhaps, there is a parallel. The word ‘pal’ might be used affectionately. Indeed, if you were to explain it to a non-native speaker, you would describe it, perhaps, as a friendly placeholder. Have it growled at you in Glaswegian, though, in the sentence “You looking at me, pal?” and there is nothing affectionate about it. The meaning of a word, especially a placeholder, lies in no small part in the delivery.

But what of the reference to colour? In England, that is clearly intolerable. Of that there is no question. Even in an age when we live, largely peacefully, in a multi-cultural society, we are not a country who like to mention colour. And, of course, the offence took place in England. Our house, our rules? Fine. More importantly, the central tenet of what can and cannot be defined as racist has long been seen not as the intention of the perpetrator but the interpretation of the victim.

But, then, in the plaintiff’s defence, his own cultural heritage, his own understanding of what is acceptable. In his homeland, it seems, such words are used simply as descriptives, and certainly without enormously offensive overtones. The Argentines, for example, pepper their speech with the word “che”. Mate, pal, man. It is used almost unconsciously. It can be substituted for a more personalised term, though. Rubio. Gordo. As one of the defendant’s countrymen put it, this is a place where, if you have a big nose, your nickname is big nose. A big head, and it’s big head. If you have darker skin – not black, just darker – then you are negro. Not “a negro”. Simply negro. Sensitive? No, not at all. But deliberately offensive, designed to wound and directed to hurt? Not really.

Both arguments have their merits. If a white English player called a black English player “n******”, it would be an open and shut discussion. There would be no discussion. No ifs or buts. We all know the effect, the loading, of that word. Whichever way you see it, to suggest that this case is not more nuanced, more complex, more intricate is borne of either incomprehension or arrogance.

In such an instance, any punishment handed out – or indeed any reprieve afforded, since it seems the defendant did accept use of one of the terms under discussion –should, presumably, reflect that nuance. Perhaps a minor ban with a far heftier one, one to make clear that not learning from your inability to accept our cultural sensitivity would be utterly unacceptable, suspended above it?

Alas no. The lawyer, the manager and the administrator, looked at this fine-mesh case, this argument of intent and interpretation and this issue of cultural relativism, and brought down upon it the swingeing sword of righteousness. A draconian penalty, a message sent. This is our land. You will play by our rules. Assimilate or die. This is Albion, perfect. Perfidious.

The Football Association’s Independent Panel, of course, are not lawmakers. The FA occupies a curious role in society; it is a state within a state. A person subject to its laws can commit an offence that, by possessing both mens rea and being, in itself, an actus reus, is a crime, on English sovereign soil and yet not be judged by a criminal court. Ask Roy Keane, and Alfe-Inge Haaland’s knee. Aggravated assault? No. Fine and a ban? Yes. Those patches of greensward up and down the land are FA embassies, in effect. What happens there is under their jurisdiction. It is only when those in the stands become involved that the police may intervene. The ones on the pitch have diplomatic immunity.

It gets stranger: the FA is not just a judge and a jury, but a plaintiff in itself, too. That was shown in the appeal of Wayne Rooney’s red card against Montenegro. That, to the FA, is a three-match ban. Except when Uefa’s sliding punishment structures allow, when it might only be a two-match ban. That conflict of interest is unavoidable, thanks to the way the administrative side of the game is constructed, but it is also undeniable. The FA’s reasoning is that the clubs do not want sliding scales of punishment, that Uefa permits it, that there are different standards and different practices. Occam’s Razor, though, applies: the simplest of several explanations is the most likely. The FA has a dual role.

In neither does it make the law. It has, despite that, in the Suarez case, set what might be termed a media precedent. The reaction to the guilty verdict, the ban and the rancour from Liverpool that followed, on the part of the newsmakers was that the FA had taken an important step to show the world that racism in any form is not acceptable in this country. Quite right. It is more than that, though: we must now accept that we believe, as a media and, by extension, as a mewling nation, that the basic rule of society dictates that an immigrant must conform to the laws of the country in which they find themselves.

That is absolutely fine. Consistency, though, is the key. The next time a British couple are arrested in Dubai for holding hands in a mall, or jailed for kissing in a public place, we can only presume not one of the same media outlets who have so heartily backed the decision of the FA’s independent panel will criticise the legal system of the UAE.


Liverpool's Argentinian international Maxi Rodriguez
They will, of course. Hypocrisy is an English disease. It infests every part of our lives. That became clear with the cringe-inducing international campaign for the national team to wear poppies on its shirts, swiftly followed by the outrage at the very idea that Argentina might be allowed to adorn its Olympic uniforms with a badge signifying the Malvinas conflict.

It is permitted, though, because English culture is so unstintingly convinced of its own superiority. The Suarez verdict has shown that to the world. The panel have taken into consideration the idea that, elsewhere in the world, words are not quite so loaded, colour not quite such a taboo identifier, and decreed that such an approach is outdated. We pride ourselves – in many ways correctly – as standing in the vanguard in the fight against racism. But in doing so we too often find ourselves preaching that others must follow our lead. Perhaps they do not need to; perhaps in Latin America the issue of racial discrimination manifests in a different way, and therefore requires a different treatment.

Besides, our approach is not flawless. There is an allegation that Patrice Evra, Suarez’s target, labelled him a “South American”. This is a strange thing for a footballer to say. It has been suggested that Evra, a Spanish speaker and a close friend of Carlos Tevez, may have used the term sudaco, a word applied to South Americans by other Spanish speakers, and one considered deeply offensive.

Not in England, though. Liverpool’s assertion that Evra should be punished for that insult was, rightly, derided as the last desperate snatch of the damned, a vapid attempt to sully his name in a bid to lessen the negativity around Suarez.

Putting that to one side, it was never a logic that would elicit much sympathy. We may not like to mention colour in this country, but where ethnicity is taboo, nationality is not. An imperfect example: I have a Scottish friend, who is obviously quite the skinflint. I have another friend, who’s black, and therefore isn’t the strongest swimmer. Both of those comments are derogatory, prejudiced and based on the most hackneyed, malicious and inaccurate stereotypes (and, needless to say, are entirely hypothetical and do not represent my views). One will have caused you to flinch. The other will not.

Why should the colour of your skin be a source of offence but the place of your birth, the land of your parents not? Racism has long been a vile stain on our society, but so too xenophobia. Both have resulted in a myriad deaths and countless horrors. It is a question I cannot answer: perhaps we have evolved beyond the nation state. Perhaps racism is the more virulent of two poisons. Or perhaps a culture which continues to place such a taboo on the very issue of race, which is so conscious of colour that it will not permit its mention, is suffering from an ultimate hypocrisy: not being quite as advanced as it claims to be.


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Re: Why I'm standing by Luis Suarez
« Reply #121 on: December 29, 2011, 11:38:33 am »
I don't like the fact he is categorically saying I'm (as a Liverpool supporter for over 40 years) happy to turn a blind eye to racism as the case in point negatively effects my team - I've said from the start that if Suarez was genuinely racist they should throw the book at him.

This.  The journos seem to have conveniently forgotten how quickly the Liverpool fans turned on Diouf when he played in the red shirt.
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Re: Why I'm standing by Luis Suarez
« Reply #122 on: December 29, 2011, 11:48:35 am »
Why not wait until it's released before deciding what it says or what it means? 

Who says it is going to be released in the vast majority of cases the report isn't released to the general public it is just sent to the Clubs. In Evra's Stamford Bridge case the FA made the unusual step of releasing the details of the disciplinary proceedings because United went to the press and screamed conspiracy. It was United's assertion that they hadn't received a fair hearing because Nicholas Stewart QC was a Arsenal season ticket holder that triggered the release of the documents.

If Liverpool are still adamant that they are going to appeal then there must be questions about whether the papers will be released to the public until after the case is completed in it's entirety.
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Re: Why I'm standing by Luis Suarez
« Reply #123 on: December 29, 2011, 02:38:02 pm »
Found that Rory Smith piece. In the interests of appearing truly balanced it limits itself from going as far as many of us might like.
Thanks for posting that, very good reading.

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Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #124 on: December 29, 2011, 02:46:46 pm »
Just been posted by Rob Gutmann on TAW

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2011/12/suarez-why-we-must-stand-by-our-man/

Here follows a suggested draft clarifying statement, from the LFC brother and sisterhood to the rest of the world, as pertains to the matter of Mr Luis Suarez Vs Mr Patrice Evra:

We the undersigned comprehensively understand that racism is a very very very nasty insidious by-product of the human condition. We understand this unequivocally and laud anyone who seeks to better race relations and to be punitive with those who seek to incite racial hatred. We realise fully that it would be pathetic of us if, in defending Luis Suarez we were merely aligning behind our club crest. We get that it is not more important to support your football team than to condemn a racist act. We don’t think the punishment meted out to Luis Suarez is a case of ‘political correctness gone mad’. We don’t need telling this by the wider British media or a half interested public. We know this. We genuinely do. You patronising c*nts.


Like his red brethren, Luis Suarez has had just about enough. He wears the haunted look of a man who can’t believe the extent of insanity that has been allowed to envelope him in the past two weeks.

The British press corps just can’t get enough of him and can scarcely disguise their joy at having free reign to tut, head shake, and also to reclaim some high ground after plumbing the depths by association with recent newspaper misconduct scandals.

The merits of the Suarez-Evra case and arcane concepts such as truth and justice have been parked amidst a desire to get in line behind those wanting to be seen to be fighting the good fight against racism.

Not for these folk concerns about the need to side bar into discussions about such foppish indulgences as definitions of racial prejudice amidst changing contexts, or whether somebody actually did the thing that they were being accused of.

It’s enough to be anti racism. It’s an end in itself. A badge of worthiness and superiority.

It has been unedifying to see how this issue has armed so many with a sense of courage to keenly spot a clear wrong from a right. Men and women on streets everywhere know that Luis Suarez deserved one of the harshest sanctions in English football history because ‘he done a racism’. He done a racism, that’s why he got banned for so long. You got to be tough on racism haven’t you? But did he actually do anything racist? He must have done. The ban proves it.

Doesn’t it?

The supporters, however, are working on a high level presumption of innocence, and it is their right to do so. A two dimensional media consensus may want ready villains and victims but those that love Suarez are entitled to demand that the golden one is not damned lightly, entitled to demand that a burden of proof lies with his accusers, and that if he is to be condemned it be by a process that can come close to commanding some respect.

The city of Liverpool has always correctly welcomed a righteous siege, and the last stand of the Suarez citadel feels like a fort worthy of defending.

It seems perverse and somehow ironic that Liverpool must seemingly now fight a new battle on a perceived low ground. It undeniably feels a tad dirty to be taking a corner opposite from the correct fight against prejudice.

This apparent contradiction however is entirely superficial. There is no stance being taken here that suggests a softening of tolerance towards racist attitudes. This is about justice and politics, and about the pernicious persecution of a good man.

If one believes a loved one has been wrongly accused of a murder, it does not suddenly make you ‘soft’ on murder.

Liverpool Football club itself, to enormous credit, has truly captured the soul of its demographic in its spirited response to the news of Suarez’s sanction by the Football Association.

Cries from outsiders of ‘playing to the gallery’ should be swatted aside. Last week at in Wigan Liverpool players displayed their solidarity with Suarez by donning T-shirts emblazoned with his number and image. The press, fairly unanimously, felt this act of comradeship inherently lacked respect towards the ‘kick it out’ anti-racism campaign.

Let’s put T-shirtgate into the correct perspective for the slow witted and the witch hunters then – the show of support for Suarez was so comprehensive, solid and heartfelt, not because the Liverpool players were simply standing by a mate, as an end in itself. They’re standing by Suarez because they firmly believe he has suffered a grave injustice.

Not an injustice in the sense that ‘a bit of racism here and there ain’t that bad, come on, we all do it’, but in the sense that they believe that their comrade is categorically not a racist, didn’t say anything racist, and is innocent of the charges levelled at him. Justice, in their view, has been miscarried.

If they believe that, and they are closer to all the evidence than any member of the press pack or legion of ‘experts’ trotted out in the past week, then that view and stance is to be taken seriously and with respect. It is nonsense to dismiss and sneer it as an act of condoning of racism. In no sense did it represent that.

Liverpool supporters have done their sums, and reached conclusions that will be scoffed at as those of apologists, but if time and respect is given, it can be seen that these conclusions are soundly enough based to warrant the defensive passion displayed. We have Kenny Dalglish and Liverpool Football Club as our witnesses.

No matter that Liverpool football club were actually at the hearing, no doubt have transcripts of it, and have a coterie of legal advisors giving them blunt objective views on all relevant implications, press men like the Daily Mail’s Des Kelly still feel that they can unabashedly alight their soap boxes with not a care in the world and freely damn club, supporters and player .

The following from Des is appallingly typical :
Suarez himself admitted he made the remark (negrito), yet argued it would be considered inoffensive in his native South America. So what?  Ignorance isn’t a justifiable defence and saying ‘little black man’ is not a purely descriptive phrase, as some at Liverpool have laughably attempted to argue.

It is a remark designed to belittle and demean and, in that context, it is racist language.

Moreover, Suarez hasn’t just stepped off a plane from Montevideo. He joined Ajax in the Dutch league in 2007 so has – or should have – a grasp of what is, and what is not, acceptable outside of South America


What Des and the mainstream press are misunderstanding with a consistency across the swathe that defies belief is not that the Liverpool family believe Suarez should ‘get off with it, because ya know, the word he used, you’re kinda allowed to say it, and be a bit racist where he comes from’.
The LFC perspective is that he has fundamentally not used language that can be construed as racist , at all. Full stop.
The media confuse the fact that they can find a literal google translation for ‘negrito’ that if applied in English would seem to clearly reference skin colour with such trivial niceties as the actual applicable definition of the word.

The French use endearments such as ‘ma puce’ or ‘mon petit chou’, which literally translate to the English as ‘my flea’ and ‘my little cabbage’. Had Evra mockingly used these terms at Suarez would the FA or boneheads like Des Kelly have claimed that he was accusing the Uruguayan of being a disease spreading insect or being disrespectful to those of impaired brain function with the vegetable assertion?

Any language student who has attained a level of competence knows that translation is not the art of applying the literal from one culture to another but is attempting to carry over the substance and spirit of what is being communicated.

Crucially in the Suarez case, the problem Brits have with getting this is that our language doesn’t have an equivalent of ‘negrito’. We don’t have words that reference skin colour affectionately.

We do have tame words for people’s places of origin such as ‘jock’, ‘taff’ or ‘Geordie’ and we have benign colloquialisms for hair colour – ginge, blondie – but with skin we draw a line.

We do this because we have history with the pigmentation of flesh. We sent men to far foreign lands where they rounded up men of darker toned skin than their own because they saw them as vulnerable and inferior. The rest, tragically, is history.

We use references to skin tone derogatorily. It’s part of our heritage to do so. It’s our shame and the FA knows this.

It’s not Uruguay’s shame though, and it’s not Luis Suarez’s burden either.

Yes, he was in our country when he happened to be having an altercation with a black man, but he did not use the racist verbal weapons so readily available in our culture (or indeed his own).

He responded, we are lead to believe, to an opponent on a football pitch addressing him in his mother tongue.

Evra, it is claimed, took it upon himself to take the spat into su casa. Suarez, at that moment surely had the right to use language that in his country he knows is simply not racist.
He used a term he would just as comfortably have used with the lighter skinned Manchester United players Hernandez and Fabio.

At the point Evra took the discourse into Spanish, Suarez was on on home turf, in his own linguistic back yard, speaking to a non Englishman who had chosen his tongue to communicate in.

The nonsense argument that ‘Suarez has lived in western Europe for ‘x’ years and should know better’ is laid bare. If he and Evra had been speaking English and Suarez said something akin to ‘calm down little black man’, then there’s a case for saying that he must know that people do not speak like this in English, without implication of offence.

The conversation with Evra, though, was not in English, and it is not for the English to decide that this conversation had racist tones.
Why was a respected Spaniard or Uruguayan not trusted to be co-opted onto the FA panel on such a key cultural issue ? Why was a decision on the implications of a conversation in a foreign language left to three Caucasian English men ?

Of course, in the absence of actually neither being at the scene of the crime and misdemeanour we can’t know what Suarez actually intended nor what Evra contrived or contributed. Did Suarez use ‘negrito’ in a sentence such as ‘calm down bro’, or did he racistly patronise Evra with the equivalent of ‘calm down little black man’ ?

It’s reasonable to suspect that Evra and the FA have gone with the latter interpretation. We can assert with confidence, however, given the virulence of LFC statement on the FA’s judgement, that the club and player are firmly convinced of the former emphasis.

Furthermore there have been leaks to suggest the key offending term was not ‘negrito’ but the potentially more explosive and internationally more recognisable ‘negro’.
Again, given the reaction of Suarez and LFC it is reasonable to assume that when Suarez stated in a recent interview that he called Evra a word that ‘his own team mates would use with him’ that he was more likely to be referencing the harmless diminutive version, ‘negrito’.

So it comes down to one man intended one thing, another man received that intention entirely differently . Word against word. Interpretation against interpretation. Will against will. So where is the FA’s case ?

Did they look at the respective credibilities of the protagonists and find that one had a more honest disposition than the other? A tricky and risky call if they chose that route. Did they consider if one man had a penchant for racism, or was circumstantially likely to default to racist name calling? Did they for one nano-second give a man the benefit of more than reasonable doubt ?

Why too, has the apparent allegation from the LFC camp that Evra initially racistly labelled Suarez a ‘Sudaca’ just been parked ?

Not that this even would justify a racist retort from the Liverpool man, but surely as a minimum, in the FA’s simplistic world view, this should have been seen as a case of a tit for tatting. If Evra was racist first it wouldn’t exonerate Suarez, but in ignoring Evra’s contribution the credibility of the FA’s process is entirely self undermined, and in turn the case against Suarez is inherently weakened.

The truth is that, regardless of what the FA’s belated official statement on this affair will say, they found the case too complex and nuanced so they went with crudest version of objectivity they could contrive.

Make no mistake, Suarez has been damned because the word used in his language in English refers to skin colour, and in English if you do that you are de facto being insulting and racist. There is virtually no room for manoeuvre in Anglo Saxon parlance.

The FA consider that in Suarez’s land you can say what the fuck you like, because, ya know, they’re a bit (whisper it) backward in those hotter far-away places. They’re not up to speed on the liberal dinner party etiquette that Daily Mail, King and country FA stalwarts can always be counted to keep abreast of.

How ironic that a traditional bastion of conservatism (in every sense) such as the football association now finds itself a standard bearer for equality and the fairer society.

We at the FA and we are now down with the kids and this whole 21st century PC speak thing. We love black people. Gays ? Those guys are great too. More of them the merrier. Anyone who doesn’t like them wants shooting, or stringing up, or to be forced to do some national service or something. That’ll straighten them out.

You can’t, it seems, teach old dogma new tricks. The irony that in belatedly adopting liberal ideals a Jurassic institution such as the FA are only mentally able to take on things as complex as ideals in their primary school two dimensional forms.

God forbid they see the perversity in their riding rough shod over the subtleties of a man’s culture and use of language in a shallow and transparent attempt to be seen to be surfing the big wave of righteousness.

We the outsiders, reduced to trying to sneak a peek into the Suarez-Evra case through the cracks in the press , or via our club’s defiant statement are left ultimately with one key decision.

Who do we trust the most to be telling us the truth and interpreting this situation correctly ?

This then is the crux of why Liverpool fans assert their right to defend their champion, and to do so with their moralities held high.

The world accuses us, of course, of flagrant partisanship. Guilty as charged.

We are partisan with this incarnation of Liverpool football club (as opposed to the Hicks/Gillett monster).

We are partisan with Kenny Dalglish. We now believe in the institution and we have always believed in the man.

We don’t believe in the Football Association and never have done.They have never before stood for truth, meritocracy, justice and fairness. They have so very rarely shown themselves to be able, sensitive and intelligent.

There are no occasions when one can say the FA behaved with nobility and courage. When did that body ever seem anything but a self serving club rife with corrupt cronyism. Never. Ever.

This is our truth, show us yours.
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Offline steampie

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #125 on: December 29, 2011, 02:57:19 pm »
That is absolutely brilliant, don't think I could add anything of substance to it.

If only it could be read/digested by mainstream press.
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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #126 on: December 29, 2011, 03:10:02 pm »
Cracking piece that.
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Re: Why I'm standing by Luis Suarez
« Reply #127 on: December 29, 2011, 03:11:58 pm »
Locked for a bit.

*edit*

And while it's locked people should read that Rory Smith article. Especially this paragraph:

What has struck me as remarkable, in the days since the verdict was announced, was how many people “know” what Suarez said, and even why he said it. This is quite a feat, when the evidence is bafflingly yet to be released. The debate remains one of impassioned ignorance. I do not wish to become embroiled in an uninformed discussion of fairness and unfairness, of claim and counter-claim. This is not about Suarez, or Liverpool, or the FA. It is about what it is to be English, and what the last few days have shown us about our nation.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 03:18:39 pm by Alan_X »
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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #128 on: December 29, 2011, 03:29:45 pm »
Excellent piece, thanks for posting.

I dare say it's most of it is what most Liverpool fans have been saying, although better written, and so is obvious to us. If only the wider public would read it.
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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #129 on: December 29, 2011, 03:30:15 pm »
Fantastic article, but at the same time, spectacularly wasted - this will not be appearing in the main rags, so they will just continue to set their own agenda and feed the knobs who are coming out of the woodwork to comment on things they know nothing about. I have head comments from people like "But he said" or "They found him guilty so it must be true" without actually knowing what was said or what the fuck they were actually referring to.

It doesn't help when writers who are supposed to know what is happening choose to simply toe the party line rather than question the judgement. Can we send the above to the likes of Reade, Evans & Co?
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Re: Why I'm standing by Luis Suarez
« Reply #130 on: December 29, 2011, 03:33:29 pm »
As for the Society of Black Lawyers. If you don't understand why they were founded and why they still exist then your grasp of racial issues is tenuous at best. If anyone could be arsed to look at their site, they'd maybe understand:

When [they] were established in 1969, [they] had two primary objectives:

1. to work towards the elimination of racial discrimination within the legal profession, which prevented people from ethnic minority communities from accessing legal education and training opportunities; and

2. to work towards the achievement of true equality of opportunity and equal access to justice for all people from minority ethnic communities through the provision of effective legal representation, advocacy, education and leadership.


To the person who was asking if a white person could join the SBL, the answer is why would they? Do white lawyers suffer discrimination based on the colour of ther skin? Get a grip please and stop getting side-tracked or slagging people off just because they don't understand our point of view.

As for the SBL demanding the Suarez case be tried in a court of law, I would welcome it if the (partial) reports of the case are correct, as I would expect Luis to be cleared.
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Offline zakka

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #131 on: December 29, 2011, 03:42:23 pm »
Brilliant read that anyone with half a brain should ignore the wider British media on this issue! I find it embarrassing that the FA have took the stance of, "if you can't do it in our country then it is wrong full stop," disregarding someone else's culture is very naive and could infact lead to racism in itself!

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #132 on: December 29, 2011, 03:55:34 pm »
An excellent article.

This is why the club should fight this case as far as they possibly can. Who knows, it may just be the opportunity for something to be done about the ridiculously ineffective FA. That organisation needs an overhaul from top to bottom.

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #133 on: December 29, 2011, 03:56:05 pm »
Absolutely superb`post mate, bloody superb, as somebody has said above, is there anyway of getting that to the press.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 03:57:50 pm by vicgill »
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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #134 on: December 29, 2011, 03:59:22 pm »
Absolutely superb`post mate, bloody superb, as somebody has said above, is there anyway of getting that to the press.

They'll read it, I know one who already has.
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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #135 on: December 29, 2011, 04:00:23 pm »
Belter of a post.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #136 on: December 29, 2011, 04:09:11 pm »
Merged the stand by Suarez threads. Please keep to the subject.
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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #137 on: December 29, 2011, 04:16:35 pm »
As for the SBL demanding the Suarez case be tried in a court of law, I would welcome it if the (partial) reports of the case are correct, as I would expect Luis to be cleared.

That is what I suspect too. Anyway, we'll see in the next few days I guess.

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #138 on: December 29, 2011, 04:25:01 pm »
Superb piece and best I have read on this issue yet.

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #139 on: December 29, 2011, 04:30:20 pm »
They'll read it, I know one who already has.

Well I hope they do something about it. I got a bit of a shock the other day, we needed a bit more booze for xmas so I went to the supermarket, got most of the gear but couldn't find the dark rum my son wanted but low and behold there on the shelf was a a bottle of "Negrita" dark rum
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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #140 on: December 29, 2011, 04:31:37 pm »
Brilliant piece.
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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #141 on: December 29, 2011, 04:35:20 pm »
That is what I suspect too. Anyway, we'll see in the next few days I guess.



I too would welcome a court case. Everything would come out. Hopefully what we instinctively feel to be true would be proven true. If not so be it, it would still be best for the full truth to come out.

The worst possible outcome would be for Luis to be branded a racist without his side of the story being heard by the masses. This would be difficult to silence at a full public trial.

This is probably now going to take on a momentum of it's own - hold tight.
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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #142 on: December 29, 2011, 04:38:06 pm »
That piece is absolutely bang on!  Enjoyable read

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #143 on: December 29, 2011, 04:57:56 pm »

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #145 on: December 29, 2011, 05:09:13 pm »
Who says it is going to be released in the vast majority of cases the report isn't released to the general public it is just sent to the Clubs. In Evra's Stamford Bridge case the FA made the unusual step of releasing the details of the disciplinary proceedings because United went to the press and screamed conspiracy. It was United's assertion that they hadn't received a fair hearing because Nicholas Stewart QC was a Arsenal season ticket holder that triggered the release of the documents.

If Liverpool are still adamant that they are going to appeal then there must be questions about whether the papers will be released to the public until after the case is completed in it's entirety.

Goulding is a Spurs season ticket holder.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #146 on: December 29, 2011, 05:26:16 pm »
Who says it is going to be released in the vast majority of cases the report isn't released to the general public it is just sent to the Clubs. In Evra's Stamford Bridge case the FA made the unusual step of releasing the details of the disciplinary proceedings because United went to the press and screamed conspiracy. It was United's assertion that they hadn't received a fair hearing because Nicholas Stewart QC was a Arsenal season ticket holder that triggered the release of the documents.

If Liverpool are still adamant that they are going to appeal then there must be questions about whether the papers will be released to the public until after the case is completed in it's entirety.

I found reports for a a number of cases on the FA site, not just the Evra/Stamford Bridge one.

Here's one for The FA vs Ferguson:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=in%20the%20matter%20of%20a%20regulatory%20commision&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thefa.com%2FTheFA%2FDisciplinary%2FNewsAndFeatures%2F2011%2F~%2Fmedia%2FFiles%2FPDF%2FTheFA%2FFA-v-QPR-and-Paladini-Full-Written-Reasons-for-Distribution.ashx&ei=d6D8TsWWHYSP8gPhhrWkAQ&usg=AFQjCNG8nGDlGi2ESVLv2xtnwUQKQPZ_wQ&cad=rja

And one for The FA vs QPR and Paladini that runs to 84 pages.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=in%20the%20matter%20of%20a%20regulatory%20commision&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thefa.com%2FTheFA%2FDisciplinary%2FNewsAndFeatures%2F2011%2F~%2Fmedia%2FFiles%2FPDF%2FTheFA%2FFA-v-QPR-and-Paladini-Full-Written-Reasons-for-Distribution.ashx&ei=d6D8TsWWHYSP8gPhhrWkAQ&usg=AFQjCNG8nGDlGi2ESVLv2xtnwUQKQPZ_wQ&cad=rja
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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #148 on: December 29, 2011, 05:50:40 pm »
Just been posted by Rob Gutmann on TAW

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2011/12/suarez-why-we-must-stand-by-our-man/


What a magnificent article that is. Well done that man. Just what the doctor ordered.

 ;D

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #149 on: December 29, 2011, 06:26:09 pm »
Think this should be put out to the wider audience, absolutely fantastic article!!

Thinks I'll post it on twitter and tag Tony Evans in it due to his, strangely written article the other day, from a so called red?!

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #150 on: December 29, 2011, 06:39:16 pm »
It's an excellent article. It seems to sum up what we all know but what pretty much everyone else doesn't seem to be interested in or care about.

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #151 on: December 29, 2011, 06:50:17 pm »
Just been posted by Rob Gutmann on TAW

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2011/12/suarez-why-we-must-stand-by-our-man/

......

This is our truth, show us yours.

Stunning article. Says everything that has been rattling around in my brain since the judgement.

It's the footballing equivalent of 'J'accuse' for the 21st Century.

Hats off to Rob Gutmann and TAW .... that's the kind of thing Brian Reade should have been writing instead of the three-line whip rubbish he did.

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #152 on: December 29, 2011, 07:01:35 pm »
As for the Society of Black Lawyers. If you don't understand why they were founded and why they still exist then your grasp of racial issues is tenuous at best. If anyone could be arsed to look at their site, they'd maybe understand:

When [they] were established in 1969, [they] had two primary objectives:

1. to work towards the elimination of racial discrimination within the legal profession, which prevented people from ethnic minority communities from accessing legal education and training opportunities; and

2. to work towards the achievement of true equality of opportunity and equal access to justice for all people from minority ethnic communities through the provision of effective legal representation, advocacy, education and leadership.


To the person who was asking if a white person could join the SBL, the answer is why would they? Do white lawyers suffer discrimination based on the colour of ther skin? Get a grip please and stop getting side-tracked or slagging people off just because they don't understand our point of view.
Alan, it might have been a bit of a hamfisted post, but the point was meant to be more about the need for the Black Lawyers society in this country and the hypocrisy of a country that needs such a society but lectures other, seemingly better integrated cultures.

For the record I have nothing against them, do not consider them racist and am sure they have done and will continue to do valuable work.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 07:03:22 pm by Red number seven »
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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #153 on: December 29, 2011, 07:03:42 pm »
Nothing much to add except.that.Robs article is a great piece and it needs a wider audience
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #154 on: December 29, 2011, 07:44:30 pm »
...the point was meant to be more about the need for the Black Lawyers society in this country and the hypocrisy of a country that needs such a society but lectures other, seemingly better integrated cultures.

If I missed that I apologise. The hypocrisy of the whole Suarez situation is it's defining characteristic.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #155 on: December 29, 2011, 07:46:01 pm »
As I said it is unusual for the FA to release the details of cases but not unprecedented. There seems to be a massive assumption that the report will be released to the public when it is far from clear cut whether it will or not or indeed whether it will be released at the same time as it is sent to the Club.

Well, let's wait and see. Given the furore over this I can't see how they can avoid publishing.
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Offline billy_goat

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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #156 on: December 29, 2011, 07:54:55 pm »
As a hater of racism I’m pleased that the FA’s ruling was that Suarez is NOT a racist

If this was the case, why was he banned for 8 games?
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Re: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man
« Reply #157 on: December 29, 2011, 08:03:41 pm »
As a hater of racism I’m pleased that the FA’s ruling was that Suarez is NOT a racist

If this was the case, why was he banned for 8 games?

Because he was found guilty of racist abuse? (Which is not the same as being racist.) I for one am happy that they at least made that distinction.

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Re: Why I'm standing by Luis Suarez
« Reply #158 on: December 29, 2011, 08:11:45 pm »
Found that Rory Smith piece. In the interests of appearing truly balanced it limits itself from going as far as many of us might like. However, we might as well cry for the moon as hope for other journalists to aspire to its evenhandedness.



Good read that Timbo.

Personally mate I think it was a well thought out piece highlighting the hyprocrisy and xenephobia of the attitudes of this country. The English on their moral high hoarse looking down their nose telling the rest of the world that their wrong and were right.

This country knocks me sick sometimes.

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Re: Why I'm standing by Luis Suarez
« Reply #159 on: December 29, 2011, 08:27:29 pm »
I feel really let down by Brian Reade and Tony Evans. If someone from the media was going to cut through all the bullshit and xenophobia I expected them to do it.

Why feel let down, when push comes to shove they're both looking after No.1 (i.e. their jobs). Same as Sky "united" tv & manchester mirror & "united" Times.
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