Author Topic: Liverpool Financial Overview  (Read 40732 times)

Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #440 on: April 28, 2021, 10:16:35 pm »
It's no good if you don't qualify for the CL the season after though (i.e. Arsenal unless they win it). You can end up stuck in a cycle of being in that competition for years.

There's even more games in the Europa than the CL and it's always Thursday/Sunday so less recovery/prep time for league games (Jurgen hates playing early Saturday after Wednesday nights).

It's less of an issue if you have a strong squad.

We've responded to each other on the squad a couple of times and I get your point.  With that said if you're spending £300m+ on wages and players 12-23 aren't even competitive with the starting XI of Brondby, Copenhagen, Cluj, Sofia, etc etc then you might as well as just fold as a club.

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #441 on: April 29, 2021, 11:33:31 am »
Given that most PL clubs are benefiting from an effective cross subsidy of TV money from the likes of us and Utd, and that many of the same clubs are also being heavily funded by owners, I think it's time for a luxury tax. A % of owner subsidies that fund transfers and wages is paid into a central pot for redistribution.

Self sustaining clubs with worldwide appeal are having their competitive advantages eroded by having to compete with the likes of City while having to share the TV money with other clubs. Surely it's only equitable that the competitive advantage of owner subsidies are also shared.

Slightly tongue in cheek, but it may wind them up even more.

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #442 on: April 29, 2021, 11:35:56 am »
Given that most PL clubs are benefiting from an effective cross subsidy of TV money from the likes of us and Utd, and that many of the same clubs are also being heavily funded by owners, I think it's time for a luxury tax. A % of owner subsidies that fund transfers and wages is paid into a central pot for redistribution.

Self sustaining clubs with worldwide appeal are having their competitive advantages eroded by having to compete with the likes of City while having to share the TV money with other clubs. Surely it's only equitable that the competitive advantage of owner subsidies are also shared.

Slightly tongue in cheek, but it may wind them up even more.

It's an interesting concept.

Owners can fund their own spending, but whatever you spend you need to pay 50% (or matched) into a pot which gets split between any clubs not receiving money from their owners.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #443 on: April 29, 2021, 11:57:06 am »
Given that most PL clubs are benefiting from an effective cross subsidy of TV money from the likes of us and Utd, and that many of the same clubs are also being heavily funded by owners, I think it's time for a luxury tax. A % of owner subsidies that fund transfers and wages is paid into a central pot for redistribution.

Self sustaining clubs with worldwide appeal are having their competitive advantages eroded by having to compete with the likes of City while having to share the TV money with other clubs. Surely it's only equitable that the competitive advantage of owner subsidies are also shared.

Slightly tongue in cheek, but it may wind them up even more.

This is probably the best solution that I've read on here. 

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #444 on: April 29, 2021, 01:51:08 pm »
This is probably the best solution that I've read on here.

The problem is it wouldn't really be a deterrent for City.

If they wanted to spend £200m one summer I imagine they'd be happy to pay £50 or £100m in "tax", and when split between the other 19 clubs it's only around £2.5-5m each which wouldn't really level the playing field all that much.

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #445 on: April 29, 2021, 02:07:25 pm »
It's an interesting concept.

Owners can fund their own spending, but whatever you spend you need to pay 50% (or matched) into a pot which gets split between any clubs not receiving money from their owners.

But City's owners don't invest anything, their global fanbase has allowed them negotiate world leading sponsorship deals with at least one company making massive losses.
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Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #446 on: April 29, 2021, 02:11:52 pm »
The problem is it wouldn't really be a deterrent for City.

If they wanted to spend £200m one summer I imagine they'd be happy to pay £50 or £100m in "tax", and when split between the other 19 clubs it's only around £2.5-5m each which wouldn't really level the playing field all that much.

That's a good point.  Somehow you'd have to make the "tax" big enough to deter the excess spending but I'm not sure if there is a number big enough.  Unfortunately, the reality is that City have so much money that they are going to spend whatever they want, whenever they want.   

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #447 on: April 29, 2021, 02:29:01 pm »
Given that most PL clubs are benefiting from an effective cross subsidy of TV money from the likes of us and Utd, and that many of the same clubs are also being heavily funded by owners, I think it's time for a luxury tax. A % of owner subsidies that fund transfers and wages is paid into a central pot for redistribution.

Self sustaining clubs with worldwide appeal are having their competitive advantages eroded by having to compete with the likes of City while having to share the TV money with other clubs. Surely it's only equitable that the competitive advantage of owner subsidies are also shared.

Slightly tongue in cheek, but it may wind them up even more.

Don't know what the solutions will be, but this part in bold is key.  We've already seen how the "traditional clubs" have responded with the ESL (a more closed shop with the league's owners, not UEFA, setting the rules in place for spending).  We've also seen UEFA themselves try to help the traditional clubs with the "legacy" spots based on coefficient (some good Europa League runs would get a team there).  The money is in the PL, and I don't know if there will be another takeover (like Newcastle), but if there is, what would be the future compromise?  Would clubs like us, United, and Arsenal finally make more progress into control over our own content (maybe some compromise to stream 5 matches on a club's own platform/app), or will the rest of the league reject any such notion?  The mistrust is so high that the other PL clubs can't even agree to 5 subs.  We could have spend caps/salary caps introduced, but how would that work?  Would that limit the competitiveness of the PL?  There's also a holistic-PL approach to UEFA.  Maybe ask for more spots for the PL (solidify the legacy spots approach).  Or maybe some clubs will ask UEFA for bigger share of the pie?

Clearly, there's been a lot of angst over finances, spending, competitiveness, etc, exacerbated by the pandemic.  With both the ESL and Project Big Picture, there's also now a lot of mistrust all around.  Will be curious what the next frontier is.
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Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #448 on: April 29, 2021, 03:10:37 pm »
The problem is it wouldn't really be a deterrent for City.

If they wanted to spend £200m one summer I imagine they'd be happy to pay £50 or £100m in "tax", and when split between the other 19 clubs it's only around £2.5-5m each which wouldn't really level the playing field all that much.
You're probably right, but I wonder if there would be a level of "tax" that would make them think twice?


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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #449 on: April 29, 2021, 03:22:24 pm »
You're probably right, but I wonder if there would be a level of "tax" that would make them think twice?

MLB's are 20% the first year, 30% the second and 50% each year after.

Just not sure City would even blink at that.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #450 on: April 29, 2021, 03:28:29 pm »
MLB's are 20% the first year, 30% the second and 50% each year after.

Just not sure City would even blink at that.

MLB also adjusts the draft to penalise teams who overspend. Something that the English game simply couldn't do. I think the only organisations big enough to deter the likes of City are governments.
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Offline Bobinhood

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #451 on: April 29, 2021, 04:12:21 pm »
MLB's are 20% the first year, 30% the second and 50% each year after.

Just not sure City would even blink at that.

Yeah a steroids financial monster can actually benefit because nobody else can pay the tax so they get the run of the top talent even more so. 

edit  also this is just a personal opinion but encouraging a government to set up a bureaucracy to impose a tax is the right solution to a problem approximately none of the time, rounded up.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 04:16:44 pm by Bobinhood »
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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #452 on: April 29, 2021, 04:42:25 pm »
We've responded to each other on the squad a couple of times and I get your point.  With that said if you're spending £300m+ on wages and players 12-23 aren't even competitive with the starting XI of Brondby, Copenhagen, Cluj, Sofia, etc etc then you might as well as just fold as a club.

You can blag your way out of a Europa group with a second string (even Hodgson and Rodgers did here) but it's still a distraction. It's 6 games Klopp has to prepare for those Thursday weeks, and 3 plane trips, when we have a league game that weekend. Then it's a round of 32, two extra games to the CL.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 04:43:57 pm by Fromola »
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Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #453 on: April 29, 2021, 04:51:28 pm »
Both MLB and NBA have so called luxury taxes where a certain percentage of spending over a set amount for MLB and the salary cap for NBA has to be put into a pot for the smaller teams to share.  I think it's hard to know how much it's affected the game in a positive way either in baseball or basketball but for different reasons.

For the NBA the tax was put in to resolve labor strife with the union so that there wasn't a hard salary cap which they were never going to accept.  With that said you already have revenue sharing, a (soft)salary cap and a draft but you'll have teams that will sabotage their own roster rather than pay the tax.  The most famous example being Oklahoma City trading away James Harden instead of keeping him with Durant and Westbrook, they would have probably won multiple NBA titles as a team otherwise.  I can't think of a single example where a team succeeded because of extra money received from the tax, it's more a detriment to keep labor costs down.

For the MLB, the tax was put in to in theory make the league more competitive with the spectre of the Yankees just buying the title every year.  MLB is probably the closest thing to the PL in that there are historically dominant teams that make more than the rest, there isn't much revenue sharing as most TV contracts are local and there is no salary cap but a tax for every dollar spent above X amount.  There is a draft though that is off-set by the ability to buy the best overseas players directly.  Maybe the money from the tax has helped in this regards but I'd say it's had a more negative affect on labor wage growth and which now guaranteed profit for the clubs.  20 years ago most would lose money to compete and now while MLB would never admit it due to continued labor strife with the union they all make money on a yearly basis.

The tax seems good in theory but mainly all it does is guarantee a profit for the owners by artificially keeping labor costs down in my mind.  Now maybe because of the pyramid style of the game the tax instead would be used to boost the lower leagues?  It would be pretty ironic but you might have something there.  Otherwise you're better off with just larger revenue sharing but this gets back to my last post in the 50+1 thread in that I don't think most fans understand what this really means for the top clubs.

Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #454 on: April 29, 2021, 04:55:13 pm »
You can blag your way out of a Europa group with a second string (even Hodgson and Rodgers did here) but it's still a distraction. It's 6 games Klopp has to prepare for those Thursday weeks, and 3 plane trips, when we have a league game that weekend. Then it's a round of 32, two extra games to the CL.

Klopp is well paid, the plane flights are charter and not Ryanair and unless Kazakhstan is in the group then it's not that long.  A distraction isn't worth giving up £30m.  If it is then why don't we just auto forfeit every cup game including CL while pocketing the money for requalifying via the league?

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #455 on: April 29, 2021, 05:02:44 pm »
Both MLB and NBA have so called luxury taxes where a certain percentage of spending over a set amount for MLB and the salary cap for NBA has to be put into a pot for the smaller teams to share.  I think it's hard to know how much it's affected the game in a positive way either in baseball or basketball but for different reasons.

For the NBA the tax was put in to resolve labor strife with the union so that there wasn't a hard salary cap which they were never going to accept.  With that said you already have revenue sharing, a (soft)salary cap and a draft but you'll have teams that will sabotage their own roster rather than pay the tax.  The most famous example being Oklahoma City trading away James Harden instead of keeping him with Durant and Westbrook, they would have probably won multiple NBA titles as a team otherwise.  I can't think of a single example where a team succeeded because of extra money received from the tax, it's more a detriment to keep labor costs down.

For the MLB, the tax was put in to in theory make the league more competitive with the spectre of the Yankees just buying the title every year.  MLB is probably the closest thing to the PL in that there are historically dominant teams that make more than the rest, there isn't much revenue sharing as most TV contracts are local and there is no salary cap but a tax for every dollar spent above X amount.  There is a draft though that is off-set by the ability to buy the best overseas players directly.  Maybe the money from the tax has helped in this regards but I'd say it's had a more negative affect on labor wage growth and which now guaranteed profit for the clubs.  20 years ago most would lose money to compete and now while MLB would never admit it due to continued labor strife with the union they all make money on a yearly basis.

The tax seems good in theory but mainly all it does is guarantee a profit for the owners by artificially keeping labor costs down in my mind.  Now maybe because of the pyramid style of the game the tax instead would be used to boost the lower leagues?  It would be pretty ironic but you might have something there.  Otherwise you're better off with just larger revenue sharing but this gets back to my last post in the 50+1 thread in that I don't think most fans understand what this really means for the top clubs.

It is not just the Luxury tax that is shared in MLB. They also have general revenue sharing.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Revenue_sharing

Revenue sharing

Revenue sharing refers to measures taken to pool and redistribute certain revenues among competing teams in a league, in order to lessen economic inequalities among teams.

Among measures that are typically part of revenue sharing are splitting national television rights, pooling of merchandising revenues, and in the case of Major League Baseball, developing and pooling revenues from the internet via mlb.com. Revenue sharing can also include some redistributive measures such as a luxury tax, or even forcing teams to pay a portion of their local television revenues into a common pool (something which has been contemplated but never implemented in MLB). The common thread is that these measures treat richer and poorer teams on an equal footing, or in the case of redistributive measures, take some of the excess revenues of richer teams and provide these to less-favored teams.

Revenue sharing can be quite controversial, as the measures will typically prevent the more successful franchises - which are often in that position because they occupy larger or more lucrative markets - from maximizing the competitive edge they could gain from the revenues they can extract from their position. However, without a form of revenue sharing, a sports league will typically polarize between a few very rich and successful franchises, and all others that struggle year after year. Proponents of revenue sharing argue that while a system where a few franchises are free to maximize their revenues is good for those few owners in the short term, it weakens the fabric of the league in the long term by lessening the level of competition, and that this will eventually erode everyone's revenues. However, there are many counter-examples of sports leagues around the world that endure in spite of domination by a few franchises.

Revenue sharing was a taboo for years in Major League Baseball, apart from the national television contracts that were not particularly lucrative once split among all the existing franchises. The issue of small-market against large-market teams became salient in the 1990s, however, and was at the core of the 1994 strike. That very damaging experience led to the adoption of some of the measures listed above. However, baseball is still well behind the National Football League or Major League Soccer, for example, in terms of revenue sharing.

In Major League Baseball, 48% of local revenues are subject to revenue sharing and are distributed equally among all 30 teams, with each team receiving 3.3% of the total sum generated. As a result, in 2018, each team received $118 million from this pot. Teams also receive a share of national revenues, which were estimated to be $91 million per team, also in 2018.



Unsurprisingly JWH isn't a fan.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/liverpool-owner-john-henry-fined-dollar500000-by-major-league-baseball-ng79lsfpvn6

 John W Henry has revealed that he was fined $500,000 by Major League Baseball (MLB) after criticising the sport’s revenue-sharing system.

The Liverpool owner spoke publicly about the fine for the first time yesterday, although his original comments were made back in 2009.

At the time, Henry told The Boston Globe that he couldn’t understand why “seven chronically uncompetitive teams” received over $1 billion in revenue. “Who, except these teams, can think this is a good idea?” he asked.

“The large markets aren’t allowed to give their opinions,” Henry said. “I made statements which turned out to be true, or at least there were various documents that were leaked after that. But anyway, the large clubs are not allowed to talk about it.”

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Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #456 on: April 29, 2021, 05:09:24 pm »


For the MLB, the tax was put in to in theory make the league more competitive with the spectre of the Yankees just buying the title every year.  MLB is probably the closest thing to the PL in that there are historically dominant teams that make more than the rest, there isn't much revenue sharing as most TV contracts are local and there is no salary cap but a tax for every dollar spent above X amount.  There is a draft though that is off-set by the ability to buy the best overseas players directly.  Maybe the money from the tax has helped in this regards but I'd say it's had a more negative affect on labor wage growth and which now guaranteed profit for the clubs.  20 years ago most would lose money to compete and now while MLB would never admit it due to continued labor strife with the union they all make money on a yearly basis.



I love how I can be told off as an American that I don't and can't understand the local game but somehow that doesn't work the other way.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #457 on: April 29, 2021, 05:27:35 pm »
I love how I can be told off as an American that I don't and can't understand the local game but somehow that doesn't work the other way.

So you say that there isn't much revenue sharing but back in 2009 JW Henry stated that 7 uncompetitive teams received $1bn.

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Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #458 on: April 29, 2021, 05:35:09 pm »
You quoted my response and added there is revenue sharing when I specifically mentioned there is revenue sharing.  I have no interest in responding to you further as you'll somehow frame yourself as the UK version of George Will.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #459 on: April 29, 2021, 05:59:36 pm »
Klopp is well paid, the plane flights are charter and not Ryanair and unless Kazakhstan is in the group then it's not that long.  A distraction isn't worth giving up £30m.  If it is then why don't we just auto forfeit every cup game including CL while pocketing the money for requalifying via the league?

We've effectively done that in the domestic cups for years tbf.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #460 on: April 29, 2021, 06:01:32 pm »
This is what you put.


For the MLB, the tax was put in to in theory make the league more competitive with the spectre of the Yankees just buying the title every year.  MLB is probably the closest thing to the PL in that there are historically dominant teams that make more than the rest, there isn't much revenue sharing as most TV contracts are local and there is no salary cap but a tax for every dollar spent above X amount.



The problem is revenue sharing isn't just about the national TV revenues. It is about sharing 48% of local revenues including merchandising. That was confirmed when our owners spoke about getting to keep the money from selling a shirt to a fan in Indonesia and not having to share it with the rest of the League.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Revenue_sharing

Among measures that are typically part of revenue sharing are splitting national television rights, pooling of merchandising revenues, and in the case of Major League Baseball, developing and pooling revenues from the internet via mlb.com.
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Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #461 on: April 29, 2021, 06:03:21 pm »
We've effectively done that in the domestic cups for years tbf.

True.  But the point still stands that you can then quantify anything as a distraction.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #462 on: April 29, 2021, 06:06:51 pm »
True.  But the point still stands that you can then quantify anything as a distraction.

But qualifying for the CL the following season has to be the priority because that's worth a lot more than 30 million.

Unless your hope of CL qualification is by winning it like in 15/16 where we were basically putting shit teams out in the league towards the end and throwing everything into the Europa League on the gamble of winning it. 

When you don't have the squad you have to prioritise.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 06:12:07 pm by Fromola »
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Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #463 on: April 29, 2021, 06:13:22 pm »
But qualifying for the CL the following season has to be the priority because that's worth a lot more than 30 million.

Unless your hope of CL qualification is by winning it like in 15/16 where we were basically putting shit teams out in the league towards the end and throwing everything into the Europa League on the gamble of winning it. 

When you don't have the squad you have to prioritise.

The CL game in midweek distracts from the league game on the weekend by your definition of distraction is what I'm getting at.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #464 on: April 29, 2021, 07:54:56 pm »
The CL game in midweek distracts from the league game on the weekend by your definition of distraction is what I'm getting at.

It does, but the point of being in the CL and making all the extra revenue is it should finance you the quality depth to deal with it.

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #465 on: April 29, 2021, 11:11:11 pm »
MLB also adjusts the draft to penalise teams who overspend. Something that the English game simply couldn't do. I think the only organisations big enough to deter the likes of City are governments.

Yeah, because people in government are never bought off by special interest groups

Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #466 on: April 29, 2021, 11:14:35 pm »
It does, but the point of being in the CL and making all the extra revenue is it should finance you the quality depth to deal with it.

Yet the EL doesn't?  John Henry just lights that extra £30m on fire with his giant cigars?

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #467 on: April 30, 2021, 01:36:49 am »
So if assume they've got a rough payback of the 300 mill they bought the team with out of the recent sale, they are now playing with house money on a mooted 3 billion valuation more or less.

so in actual fact that may actually BE an epic swindle. haha Based on it effectively came down to jurisdiction and luckily that team had nothing to do with Texas. + 2.7 Large  thats a decent score.

and thats the other thing.

With FSG and Redbird involved its a given that that at this point we actually do have SOMETHING to do with Texas. Someone somewhere owns something somehow thats all part of the thing and it is located in Texas. It just stands to reason.

no point really, just saying  the good old days
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Offline Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #468 on: April 30, 2021, 07:18:51 am »
Yet the EL doesn't?  John Henry just lights that extra £30m on fire with his giant cigars?

30 million is a best case scenario if you go all the way.

Still, its maybe one good player or two Tsimikas's. It doesn't stretch far in the market.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Online CraigDS

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #469 on: April 30, 2021, 11:06:01 am »
30 million is a best case scenario if you go all the way.

Not really.

Yeah it's £30m from UEFA, but you then have the various bonus payments from sponsors, and more importantly the additional home games which prob average over £2m per game for us now.

You're prob looking at closer to £50m for making it all the way, which in real terms is a little under half the cost of covid, or a top class centre back and some left over for a couple of years wages for him.

Offline DelTrotter

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #470 on: April 30, 2021, 11:16:47 am »
Chelsea got 46m euros from tv and prize money for winning it 2 years ago, Arsenal 39 as runners up, then that's before you include other stuff like tickets etc as Craig says. Nothing incredible but certainly can't be turning our noses up at that in these times if that's the way the season pans out.

Offline Eeyore

  • "I have no problem whatsoever stating that FSG have done a good job.".Mo Money, Mo Problems to invent. Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #471 on: April 30, 2021, 11:37:43 am »
Yeah, because people in government are never bought off by special interest groups

It isn't about that. It is about getting governments to set up a review of Football governance. To set up new regulatory bodies that include all stakeholders. That to me seems better than the likes of Perez, the Glazers, Henry, Abramovich, Kroenke, Agnelli et al setting up their own ESL in which they make all the rules.
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Online cdav

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Re: Liverpool Financial Overview
« Reply #472 on: April 30, 2021, 12:03:51 pm »
Chelsea got 46m euros from tv and prize money for winning it 2 years ago, Arsenal 39 as runners up, then that's before you include other stuff like tickets etc as Craig says. Nothing incredible but certainly can't be turning our noses up at that in these times if that's the way the season pans out.

Yeah think we do need to try and go far in cups next season to up the number of games. The Europa League is 7 home matches if you get to the semi finals, so about £20m in ticket receipts?