Author Topic: Learning a new language.  (Read 26002 times)

Offline kellan

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Re: Learning a new language.
« Reply #320 on: December 4, 2020, 01:54:55 pm »
Just been upgraded to the hearts systemon Duolingo, and to me it's a massive backward step.
Instantly cut my daily use of it by about 75%.

The whole model of Duolingo is "figure it out yourself, learn from your mistakes" - a lot of lessons don't have any tips, and those that do are fairly sparse. So a system that actively punishes you for mistakes runs completely counter to that.
It's also very frustrating when you lose a life because Duolingo doesn't accept what is actually a perfectly valid translation.

Presumably the idea is to try and force more people on to the paid system, but personally it just puts me off.
"We've made the free version shit, pay £100 a year* to get basically what you used to get for free" doesn't really appeal to me.

*I think that is what it costs -  it what is another "fuck you" move, Duolingo seem determined to hide how much Duolingo Plus actually costs.
I've posted some steps on the previous page for how to get round the heart system by making it give you unlimited supply.
https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=222563.msg17466836#msg17466836
https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=222563.msg17467260#msg17467260

It is still working for me. I get an occasional 'have a freebie turn of unlimited hearts for this level' pop-up now and then but nothing changes once I've completed it, the unlimited hearts are still there letting you use the app like it used to allow.

Offline kellan

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Re: Learning a new language.
« Reply #321 on: December 4, 2020, 02:18:00 pm »
I'm not sure what all this hearts business is.
They have essentially gamified it. Think of hearts as lives. Every wrong answer takes a life away. When you run out of lives, you have to go backwards to an easier lesson and replenish by getting answers right. Or you spend gems earned from already completed lessons to' buy' more lives. Or you just fork out real money for the paid version to do away with it all.

They will have justified it on the argument that replenishment goes hand in hand with revisiting earlier and easier levels/lessons which ought to teach you how to complete the one you weren't able to. But say you are on level 4 of a lesson, it doesn't actually let you go back to level 3. Duolingo has never done that. So unless you can find another lesson of related content, the replenishment process won't teach you a thing of what you need to carry on progressing through the lesson tree.

Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Learning a new language.
« Reply #322 on: December 4, 2020, 03:13:40 pm »
They have essentially gamified it. Think of hearts as lives. Every wrong answer takes a life away. When you run out of lives, you have to go backwards to an easier lesson and replenish by getting answers right. Or you spend gems earned from already completed lessons to' buy' more lives. Or you just fork out real money for the paid version to do away with it all.

They will have justified it on the argument that replenishment goes hand in hand with revisiting earlier and easier levels/lessons which ought to teach you how to complete the one you weren't able to. But say you are on level 4 of a lesson, it doesn't actually let you go back to level 3. Duolingo has never done that. So unless you can find another lesson of related content, the replenishment process won't teach you a thing of what you need to carry on progressing through the lesson tree.
Sounds like a load of pointless nonsense. Or just a way of getting you to pony up.

I did notice that the whole DL programme is very gamified. XPs and gems and lingots, whatever they are, and crowns and leagues and competing against others, and now hearts (which I hadn't seen as I've only looked at the desktop version of the site).

Far from helping I think these game features can distract you or reduce your progress. Language learning is not a game; it's not achieved by completing bits and getting points. It's an almost mysterious, non-linear process that requires an immersed approach. If you can get lost in the language you'll come out knowing more than you realise. This game approach militates against that immersive experience.

Sorry, not trying to put people off. The fact it is free is a big boon. But I would definitely advise using other methods as well, ideally ones which involve as much production as possible.
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Offline Jake

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Re: Learning a new language.
« Reply #323 on: December 12, 2020, 10:01:21 am »
They've added grammar lessons, which is nice.

And the hearts workaround took me about one minute to impliment, which was also nice.

Nice.
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Offline rob1966

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Re: Learning a new language.
« Reply #324 on: December 12, 2020, 05:05:50 pm »
A heads up for anybody who uses duolingo free and has had their version update from the 'do as many lessons as you fancy' lingots system to the 'oh dear you ran out of hearts so go get some more before you can do another lesson or maybe just pay for the subscription version' system - if you go to https://schools.duolingo.com and set yourself up as a teacher, then create a classroom, then open up another browser tab and visit the join code link to also make yourself a student of said classroom, then go into the app and click the heart in the top corner - the option for unlimited hearts via pro subscription will now be unlimited via student status so you can carry on using the app exactly as you were :wave

Or the browser version itself still has the lingot system so you could always just switch to using that instead.

Thanks very much for that :wave

I'm still on lingots on the laptop, but hearts on my phone, now got unlimited hearts  :)
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Re: Learning a new language.
« Reply #325 on: December 13, 2020, 04:52:53 am »
German grammar is the biggest pain in the arse ever.

That aside, Netflix option is great, if you have VPN, change your location to anywhere in Germany, and watch pretty much everything with German subtitles and audio. Fantastic way to learn [although some shows/movies  have subtitles that are not verbatim to the audio]

Offline dalarr

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Re: Learning a new language.
« Reply #326 on: December 13, 2020, 09:32:59 am »
I’ve been allowed to study English at University this year. My spoken and written English has been decent but having the chance to dive deep into the fundamentals of grammar and literature has given me a massive boost. What a beautiful and complex language!

I didn’t know that English does not have a designated future tense. You are simply recycling other tenses and you have to analyze and interpret context to write  and speak properly. It’s fascinating and brilliant. My only regret is that regardless of how much I work, I will always have an accent. I dream of having a perfect accent, regardless of which!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2020, 09:50:48 am by dalarr »

Offline JC the Messiah

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Re: Learning a new language.
« Reply #327 on: December 13, 2020, 09:48:54 am »
I’ve been allowed to study English at University this year. My spoken and written English has been decent but having the chance to dive deep into the fundamentals of grammar and literature has given me a massive boost. What a beautiful and complex language!

I didn’t know that English does not have a designated future tense. You are simply recycling other tenses and you have to analyze and interpret context to right and speak properly. It’s fascinating and brilliant. My only regret is that regardless of how much I work, I will always have an accent. I dream of having a perfect accent, regardless of which!
Your written English is superior to many native speakers.

As for the accent, don't worry about that, unless it's a Birmingham accent...
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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Learning a new language.
« Reply #328 on: December 13, 2020, 09:50:35 am »
I’ve been allowed to study English at University this year. My spoken and written English has been decent but having the chance to dive deep into the fundamentals of grammar and literature has given me a massive boost. What a beautiful and complex language!

I didn’t know that English does not have a designated future tense. You are simply recycling other tenses and you have to analyze and interpret context to right and speak properly. It’s fascinating and brilliant. My only regret is that regardless of how much I work, I will always have an accent. I dream of having a perfect accent, regardless of which!
Yes, modern English is a mongrel language - pretty much a creole, and became like this to facilitate communication between disparate linguistic groups sharing a small space. Thus it has lost almost all of its flexion, to the point where it is almost a series of particles which context and word order temporarily designate into various 'parts of speech' and, as you say, the future and conditional tenses. It also almost totally lacks a subjunctive. In that regard it has more in common with, for example, Mandarin Chinese than it does ts closest neighbours, which are also its antecedents.

This weirdness soup is part of what makes it such a successful language, and also pretty easy to learn to speak (its confusing orthography makes reading and writing somewhat harder)

I wouldn't worry about accent; it's always the thing language learners care most about and yet is least important. And it's almost impossible to lose anyway so trying is a wasted effort. Even with the most rigorous feedback-based practice and training most people past about the age of 5 can only hope to master about 85% of a foreign language's sound systems perfectly (there are some rare exceptions). It's really not worth it.

And accented English sounds cool  ;)
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Offline redgriffin73

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Re: Learning a new language.
« Reply #329 on: December 16, 2020, 05:00:05 pm »
I’ve been allowed to study English at University this year. My spoken and written English has been decent but having the chance to dive deep into the fundamentals of grammar and literature has given me a massive boost. What a beautiful and complex language!

I didn’t know that English does not have a designated future tense. You are simply recycling other tenses and you have to analyze and interpret context to write  and speak properly. It’s fascinating and brilliant. My only regret is that regardless of how much I work, I will always have an accent. I dream of having a perfect accent, regardless of which!

I love learning about grammar too (I was always miffed that I couldn't do English language A-level at my sixth form, only literature). You often find because of the way English seems to be taught here nowadays that non-native speakers have a far better understanding of English grammar than the English! Oh and don't worry about your accent, I love hearing people from other countries speaking English! :)
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Offline .adam

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Re: Learning a new language.
« Reply #330 on: April 22, 2024, 02:14:04 pm »
Anyone else studying a new language?

I am learning Italian as the wife and I love the place. We visit ever year and hope to buy a place out there in the future.

We both speak Spanish and my wife has a good understanding of Italian too having studied it at university alongside Spanish. We're thinking of having one day a week at home where we only speak Italian to each other.

Spanish has given me a good grounding for Italian (there are plenty similar words) but there are some differences which, in my opinion, make it a bit more complicated than Spanish.

I'm going to classes once a week (for an hour) and doing Duolingo every day. I've got a few text books (Collins) which I'm trying to dip in and out of too. Trying to do a bit every day to help build a solid base.

Definitely don't think I am picking it up quite as quick as I did Spanish when at school. I guess a combination of more face-to-face lessons in school, more homework in the evenings and being younger back then all contribute to the slower progress. Still, anche se è un processo lento, andiamo!

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Re: Learning a new language.
« Reply #331 on: April 22, 2024, 02:22:28 pm »
I’m about 50 days into learning Spanish on Duolingo. Been there a fair bit, no the essentials but not much beyond that which is always a bit embarrassing and my son is doing it for GCSE so trying f to at least gets some basic knowledge so I can help him a bit if needed.

As ever find reading the easiest. Then possibly writing (only very short phrases). Listening and speaking is a bit more challenging. Just getting to grips with the pronunciations and the way the words often roll into each other.

Didn’t have an option to study Spanish at my school I don’t think. It was all just French and/or German back in my day (before Spanish was invented, clearly).

Offline rob1966

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Re: Learning a new language.
« Reply #332 on: Yesterday at 12:45:12 pm »
I’m about 50 days into learning Spanish on Duolingo. Been there a fair bit, no the essentials but not much beyond that which is always a bit embarrassing and my son is doing it for GCSE so trying f to at least gets some basic knowledge so I can help him a bit if needed.

As ever find reading the easiest. Then possibly writing (only very short phrases). Listening and speaking is a bit more challenging. Just getting to grips with the pronunciations and the way the words often roll into each other.

Didn’t have an option to study Spanish at my school I don’t think. It was all just French and/or German back in my day (before Spanish was invented, clearly).

Same for me, did French and German at school, St Kevs and St Gregs taught Spanish as they were catholic. Its still focussed on French and German in my kids schools.

My streak on Duolingo is 1704 days (been on it longer but used to miss days). I know shit loads of words, but speaking is still crap, although I did impress the kids in Tenerife when I was asking for things in Spanish and asked the cleaner to open the kids room and understood what she replied when she said she wasn't authorised to open doors and I had to ask at reception.
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Offline Komic

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Re: Learning a new language.
« Reply #333 on: Yesterday at 03:58:55 pm »
I found the thing that has given me the most confidence in speaking in Spanish is recording myself on my phone talking for about 10 minutes. I then listen back to it and make notes on where I stumble or don't know the word.

Just started with Italian, still on the Duolingo phase but hoping to progress to the more fun ways of practicing soon.