Poll

What are your views on Kier Starmer's leadership of the Labour party to date?

Excellent
5 (1.9%)
Good
33 (12.8%)
Average
88 (34.1%)
Poor
46 (17.8%)
Awful
69 (26.7%)
Too early to say
17 (6.6%)

Total Members Voted: 258

Author Topic: Keir Starmer: your views?  (Read 69117 times)

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1120 on: September 28, 2021, 06:38:46 pm »
This is why - however much you might agree with her - it was bad idea for Raynor to use the language she did.


Whilst I do not disagree with your general point, that poll is misleading. If a senior Tory MP had recently used the word 'scum' to describe The Labour Party, and although you might find that the overall percentages are similar, I strongly suspect that the breakdown across party and Brexit lines would be turned upside down.
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Offline Elmo!

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1121 on: September 28, 2021, 06:39:45 pm »
Whilst I do not disagree with your general point, that poll is misleading. If a senior Tory MP had recently used the word 'scum' to describe The Labour Party, and although you might find that the overall percentages are similar, I strongly suspect that the breakdown across party and Brexit lines would be turned upside down.

No doubt, but I'm not sure how that makes it misleading?

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1122 on: September 28, 2021, 06:40:45 pm »

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1123 on: September 28, 2021, 06:42:56 pm »
"I didn't come into politics to vote over and over in Parliament and lose and then go and tweet about it."

Feisty.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58718835
He's right to have the fight and fuck them off. Labour cannot win with the Labour Party as presently constituted - there needs to be clear light between what Labour offers now and what it was offering under the other fella.
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1124 on: September 28, 2021, 06:48:10 pm »
No doubt, but I'm not sure how that makes it misleading?
Because your average reader will just read that poll to indicate that Tories and Brexiteers are more morally upright and of higher rectitude than Labour/Remain supporters. The reality is that the majority of people provide their views according to their alliances rather than the general question at hand. Of course, this is a problem with all such polls. These questions tell you less about people's real views on such questions than it does about their wider positions. These questions (and the answers) are meaningless.
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Offline Elmo!

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1125 on: September 28, 2021, 06:52:36 pm »
Because your average reader will just read that poll to indicate that Tories and Brexiteers are more morally upright and of higher rectitude than Labour/Remain supporters. The reality is that the majority of people provide their views according to their alliances rather than the general question at hand. Of course, this is a problem with all such polls. These questions tell you less about people's real views on such questions than it does about their wider positions. These questions (and the answers) are meaningless.

They certainly should be read with a huge pinch of salt, but I don't think that makes it misleading, or useless data.

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1126 on: September 28, 2021, 07:02:07 pm »
They certainly should be read with a huge pinch of salt, but I don't think that makes it misleading, or useless data.
They're just trying to get a rise. It's the yeast of our problems.
I admit fully that my judgment was probably coloured by my tendency to be too honourable

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1127 on: September 28, 2021, 08:04:58 pm »
Bakers Union disaffiliated.

Gesture politics at its worst. I had a conversation with an old fishing mate this evening. He’s a former T&G regional convenor and Wales TUC delegate. We are both convinced Starmer has had considerable input from Mandelson, and has decided to take on the Corbynites/malcontents at this conference, because they represent a festering sore that won’t go away.


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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1128 on: September 29, 2021, 08:40:06 am »
Absolute madness these conferences last so long. 5 solid days for people to spend in close proximity with people who hate each other.

Offline villagelife

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1129 on: September 29, 2021, 09:31:09 am »
They're just trying to get a rise. It's the yeast of our problems.

I think it will slice up their memebrship.

Offline stewil007

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1130 on: September 29, 2021, 09:36:50 am »
I think it will slice up their memebrship.

we'll just need to roll with it.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1131 on: September 29, 2021, 10:25:17 am »
Amongst the factional bunfight, Rosie Duffield gets thrown "on the railway tracks'.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1132 on: September 29, 2021, 10:37:17 am »
Watched him on the Marr show last Sunday and I'll admit that I was a little disappointed that he was saying that he would not nationalise the Energy Companies amongst other things like the railways, despite apparently comitting to it in the past. What is the issue here, does he think that it will be unpopular with the voters?
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1133 on: September 29, 2021, 10:40:22 am »
Watched him on the Marr show last Sunday and I'll admit that I was a little disappointed that he was saying that he would not nationalise the Energy Companies amongst other things like the railways, despite apparently comitting to it in the past. What is the issue here, does he think that it will be unpopular with the voters?


Part of why I won't vote for a party led by him. And I voted for him as leader.

The country needs a root & branch revolution, not some tinkering on the periphery to put an ever-so-slightly padded velvet glove over the iron fist of the corporate-capitalism system that panders to the super-rich.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1134 on: September 29, 2021, 10:44:30 am »
I missed the Marr interview, but pretty sure he pledged to nationalise when running for leader

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1135 on: September 29, 2021, 10:45:41 am »
The country needs a root & branch revolution, not some tinkering on the periphery to put an ever-so-slightly padded velvet glove over the iron fist of the corporate-capitalism system that panders to the super-rich.

I read that with a Mao-Tse-Tung voice and waved a little red book in the air at the same time.

It felt hugely satisfying.
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Offline Welshred

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1136 on: September 29, 2021, 10:46:21 am »
Watched him on the Marr show last Sunday and I'll admit that I was a little disappointed that he was saying that he would not nationalise the Energy Companies amongst other things like the railways, despite apparently comitting to it in the past. What is the issue here, does he think that it will be unpopular with the voters?

He's said that his government will only nationalise when it is cost effective to be nationalised so I'm guessing he's looked at the energy sector and decided that it would cost too much to nationalise and has left it out now.


Part of why I won't vote for a party led by him. And I voted for him as leader.

The country needs a root & branch revolution, not some tinkering on the periphery to put an ever-so-slightly padded velvet glove over the iron fist of the corporate-capitalism system that panders to the super-rich.




Cutting your nose off to spite your face Nobby. You can't complain about the Tories being in power then not vote for the only realistic party who could defeat them. I voted for Corbyn initially and hated his leadership and still voted for him in both General Elections he lost.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1137 on: September 29, 2021, 10:49:29 am »
I read that with a Mao-Tse-Tung voice and waved a little red book in the air at the same time.

It felt hugely satisfying.


Good for you.

If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline filopastry

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1138 on: September 29, 2021, 10:52:10 am »
Trains make sense to do as licences expire, energy companies I never really saw much point, as its much more difficult and expensive to do, you can achieve a lot of the consumer benefits through more effective regulation anyway

Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1139 on: September 29, 2021, 10:59:04 am »
Newsnight was quite fiesty last night, with talk of Starmer 'marginlising the left'. Len 'fucking' Mccluskey is not happy about it, nor is Jeremy Corbyn nor is John McDonnell. That's three big boxes ticked for me.

I thought Peter Kyle came across quite well articulating that the problem isn't necessarily the left in itself but the left with the electorate.

I'm not sure why the BBC feels the need to show a Jeremy Corbyn rally with a room full of people, its as if they are trying to show how popular he is, when he clearly isn't, well not with the electorate at least.

Then there is the John McDonnell interview towards the end when he is still advocating the Corbyn approach and uniting the party, despite it being pointed out that resulted in Labours biggest defeat in years. What gets me about these from the left wanting to 'unite' the party, they only want to unite it on their own terms, its as if they are trying to convert the Labour party into a Marxist party. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001043h/newsnight-28092021
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1140 on: September 29, 2021, 10:59:58 am »
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.
Thanks, Nobby. I was looking for a new signature line.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1141 on: September 29, 2021, 11:00:10 am »

Good for you.

If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

That sounds like the type of reactionary recreation favoured by decadent bourgeois running-dogs of capitalism.

I might give it a try.  ;D
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1142 on: September 29, 2021, 11:00:14 am »
Cutting your nose off to spite your face Nobby. You can't complain about the Tories being in power then not vote for the only realistic party who could defeat them. I voted for Corbyn initially and hated his leadership and still voted for him in both General Elections he lost.


Live in a rock-solid Labour seat so have the luxury of being able to protest vote with impunity.

I don't even consider myself far left. More mid-left along the political spectrum.

I just believe that the country needs a radical overhaul, so it's run for the benefit of 'the masses' rather than the 'be happy with the crumbs off the top table' mindset that's pervaded politics throughout my life (and I was born in '72)

Labour under Blair and Brown introduced many decent policies, but these were on the periphery and designed to mitigate the most harmful impacts of a fundamentally unfair economic system. With a gargantuan majority and an immense amount of public goodwill, they chose not to make changes to 'the system' (some out of fear of being demonised by the RWM, some because they were genuine 'third-way' supporters of corporate capitalism).
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1143 on: September 29, 2021, 11:01:17 am »
Thanks, Nobby. I was looking for a new signature line.


c*nt

 :lmao
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1144 on: September 29, 2021, 11:03:21 am »

c*nt

 :lmao
You are very welcome! :) I thought it worth preserving - for a while, at least.
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Offline Welshred

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1145 on: September 29, 2021, 11:06:01 am »

Live in a rock-solid Labour seat so have the luxury of being able to protest vote with impunity.

I don't even consider myself far left. More mid-left along the political spectrum.

I just believe that the country needs a radical overhaul, so it's run for the benefit of 'the masses' rather than the 'be happy with the crumbs off the top table' mindset that's pervaded politics throughout my life (and I was born in '72)

Labour under Blair and Brown introduced many decent policies, but these were on the periphery and designed to mitigate the most harmful impacts of a fundamentally unfair economic system. With a gargantuan majority and an immense amount of public goodwill, they chose not to make changes to 'the system' (some out of fear of being demonised by the RWM, some because they were genuine 'third-way' supporters of corporate capitalism).

Fair enough and I hope your safe Labour seat remains like the one I live in. I'll only vote Labour in General Elections though as that's where my party loyalties lie, I want a Labour government and I'm going to vote for a Labour government as I believe that doing otherwise is a vote for the status quo and the Tories to remain in power.

Unfortunately we live in a conservative country and Jersey gave some good points as to just how conservative it is. Presenting a radical overhaul of the country doesn't fit for the vast majority of people here and left wing politics doesn't prevail if it goes too far left. That's the reality we face, its the reality Blair and Brown experienced and in my lifetime their governments were the best this country has experienced in my lifetime. Its why it really rankles me when people like Sultana bang on about kicking the Blairites out of the party and saying things like "40 years of Thatcherism" when she grew up under Blair's government and probably benefitted from a shit load of the policies they brought in.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2021, 11:07:49 am by Welshred »

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1146 on: September 29, 2021, 11:06:05 am »

Good for you.

If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Speaking from experience?

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1147 on: September 29, 2021, 11:06:13 am »
Trains make sense to do as licences expire, energy companies I never really saw much point, as its much more difficult and expensive to do, you can achieve a lot of the consumer benefits through more effective regulation anyway


We should nationalise the National Grid as a minimum.

They're a total monopoly (as all electricity and gas suppliers need to use their infrastructure provided by NG), and make between £3bn and £5bn a year profits. That's a massive amount sucked out of the pockets of consumers into the hands of shareholders, whilst its CEO trousers over £5m 'salary package'.

That's before all the individual energy supply companies rake off their margins (in ordinary times, obvs)

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1148 on: September 29, 2021, 11:10:17 am »
Fair enough and I hope your safe Labour seat remains like the one I live in. I'll only vote Labour in General Elections though as that's where my party loyalties lie, I want a Labour government and I'm going to vote for a Labour government as I believe that doing otherwise is a vote for the status quo and the Tories to remain in power.

Unfortunately we live in a conservative country and Jersey gave some good points as to just how conservative it is. Presenting a radical overhaul of the country doesn't fit for the vast majority of people here and left wing politics doesn't prevail if it goes too far left. That's the reality we face, its the reality Blair and Brown experienced and in my lifetime their governments were the best this country has experienced in my lifetime.


I do think any potentially radical Labour party needs to be cute in its policy presentation, though.

WRT nationalisation of public utilities (I'm of the opinion that vital services like water, heat and electricity shouldn't be a milch cow for an essentially parasitic class), they should not commit either way. Starmer could have said that Labour would look at the situation if elected and decide what would be best for the interests of ordinary working people. Instead, he's backed himself into a corner in ruling it out.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1149 on: September 29, 2021, 11:10:37 am »
Speaking from experience?


I don't like oranges.
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1150 on: September 29, 2021, 11:11:42 am »

I don't like oranges.

Isn't that part of the point?
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Offline Welshred

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1151 on: September 29, 2021, 11:12:25 am »

We should nationalise the National Grid as a minimum.

They're a total monopoly (as all electricity and gas suppliers need to use their infrastructure provided by NG), and make between £3bn and £5bn a year profits. That's a massive amount sucked out of the pockets of consumers into the hands of shareholders, whilst its CEO trousers over £5m 'salary package'.

That's before all the individual energy supply companies rake off their margins (in ordinary times, obvs)



Wholeheartedly agree with this. I think the East Coast railway made a £200m+ pre-tax profit before it was re-privatised several years ago, that's £200m+ of money that could have gone back into the railways and is just one example so there's billions of pounds worth of revenue available just from renationalising the railways.

My stance is if the nationalisation of an industry is going to make the country more money than it remaining privatised then it should be done.

Offline Welshred

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1152 on: September 29, 2021, 11:14:02 am »

I do think any potentially radical Labour party needs to be cute in its policy presentation, though.

WRT nationalisation of public utilities (I'm of the opinion that vital services like water, heat and electricity shouldn't be a milch cow for an essentially parasitic class), they should not commit either way. Starmer could have said that Labour would look at the situation if elected and decide what would be best for the interests of ordinary working people. Instead, he's backed himself into a corner in ruling it out.




That would probably be a smarter way of doing it I agree, if he does decide to do something like nationalise the national grid I hope he's able to frame it correctly.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1153 on: September 29, 2021, 11:15:44 am »
Railway privatisation has been an almost unrelieved disaster. There is absolutely no way the market can - or should - be responsible for creating a national railway network. I think even some Tories would recognise this now.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1154 on: September 29, 2021, 11:18:37 am »
Newsnight was quite fiesty last night, with talk of Starmer 'marginlising the left'. Len 'fucking' Mccluskey is not happy about it, nor is Jeremy Corbyn nor is John McDonnell. That's three big boxes ticked for me.

I thought Peter Kyle came across quite well articulating that the problem isn't necessarily the left in itself but the left with the electorate.

I'm not sure why the BBC feels the need to show a Jeremy Corbyn rally with a room full of people, its as if they are trying to show how popular he is, when he clearly isn't, well not with the electorate at least.

Then there is the John McDonnell interview towards the end when he is still advocating the Corbyn approach and uniting the party, despite it being pointed out that resulted in Labours biggest defeat in years. What gets me about these from the left wanting to 'unite' the party, they only want to unite it on their own terms, its as if they are trying to convert the Labour party into a Marxist party. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001043h/newsnight-28092021

They’ve all come out of the woodwork, not just McCluskey. This morning’s Guardian carries articles from Fletcher, Owen Jones, McDonnell and Ken Loach - every one of them castigating Starmer for expulsion of ‘long time activists’, creating division and ditching democracy.

No mention in any of them of the deselection games of a few years ago.

It’s my opinion that Starmer has recognised that this boil needs lancing once and for all. He might be wrong, but only time will tell.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1155 on: September 29, 2021, 11:20:06 am »
Wholeheartedly agree with this. I think the East Coast railway made a £200m+ pre-tax profit before it was re-privatised several years ago, that's £200m+ of money that could have gone back into the railways and is just one example so there's billions of pounds worth of revenue available just from renationalising the railways.

My stance is if the nationalisation of an industry is going to make the country more money than it remaining privatised then it should be done.


The annoying part is that they were all sold off at an artificially low price to ensure their chums who bought shares made fat profits on their investments (and the Tories could proclaim their privatisation policy to be a success)
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1156 on: September 29, 2021, 11:21:42 am »
I want to see what he's thinking with 'common ownership' outside of nationalisation. The reality is that time and capacity to deliver is limited for a (potentially) one term labour government so the thing to think about is which battles and which legislation are most worth taking through to then show to the electorate and then those which lay the foundations for a potential second term. What's not going to happen is reversing every privatisation of Thatcher and Major in four or five years, even if there was a sensible case to do them. Priorities and then what can be done.

-----

Just re.Mandelson, I don't think he's involved beyond popping up as a cheerleader at every zoom event I've attended for near on a couple of years and in the press. This is all on Starmer and his team. It's very soft left/centre of the Labour party behind it. The mad thing to think about is the policy platform the old Labour right is now signed up to and pushing for. Sometimes it's worth taking 'yes' for an answer and making distance from those who haven't spotted that Labour has legal, moral, and political obligations it has to fulfill.
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1157 on: September 29, 2021, 11:33:31 am »
Railway privatisation has been an almost unrelieved disaster. There is absolutely no way the market can - or should - be responsible for creating a national railway network. I think even some Tories would recognise this now.
I'm travelling to the UK soon and have a choice of buying a ticket in advance - but potentially be out of pocket if I am delayed getting to the UK (and no chance of refund). Or, buy the train ticket at the station when I reach the UK and pay a lot more. The way you are confined to a specific train with your ticket (in the UK) is fucking ridiculous.
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1158 on: September 29, 2021, 11:37:52 am »
It's not just about making money though.  There are other environmental and social benefits to consider too.

Privatisation has been a disaster for most of the utilities/transport sectors in a societal and ecological sense, and why wouldn't it have been.   Anyone questioning the fact that we should continue to let markets dictate things needs to look at how resilient the systems are.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1159 on: September 29, 2021, 11:41:55 am »
I'm travelling to the UK soon and have a choice of buying a ticket in advance - but potentially be out of pocket if I am delayed getting to the UK (and no chance of refund). Or, buy the train ticket at the station when I reach the UK and pay a lot more. The way you are confined to a specific train with your ticket (in the UK) is fucking ridiculous.

If you know when you're going, buying a ticket in advance isn't all that expensive. Even a day in advance is fairly cheap. Buy it online, pick it up when you get to the station.
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