Topic: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One

[Peter McGurk]

It's the zone between the optimum and recommended maximum viewing distance (see Alan_F diagrams) - somebody asked me for it before and I've just realised what they wanted.

[Espresso Bar]

Structurally, what was the old Kop like?

This video shows more of the character of the Kop than the structure but it's worth a look:
 
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/oHdSaPt8RyA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/oHdSaPt8RyA</a>

[Peter McGurk]

Shows absolutely nothing of the structure but everything of the kop!


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/drNjjzbVf9U" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/drNjjzbVf9U</a>
 

[Espresso Bar]

This one's not bad:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/r8T0WdYhIfA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/r8T0WdYhIfA</a>

[Peter McGurk]

This one's not bad:

Nice one

[west_london_red]

what a pile of crap.

Care to elaborate?

Truth is, Xerxes is correct, we look back way too much, and we need to get with the times, be as radical and revolutionary as Shanks was 50 years ago. That doesnt mean we should definitly have a 2 tier Kop? No, what it does mean is that all posibilities should be investigated, considered and accepted or rejected accordingly. Very little (stadium related or otherwise) should be protected by dogma, or all we will do is stand still and eventually (as we have been doing for the last 20 years) move backwards.

[CraigDS]

Care to elaborate?

Truth is, Xerxes is correct, we look back way too much, and we need to get with the times, be as radical and revolutionary as Shanks was 50 years ago. That doesnt mean we should definitly have a 2 tier Kop? No, what it does mean is that all posibilities should be investigated, considered and accepted or rejected accordingly. Very little (stadium related or otherwise) should be protected by dogma, or all we will do is stand still and eventually (as we have been doing for the last 20 years) move backwards.

Whilst I agree we should be looking to move forward you also have to keep a finger on what makes LFC such a world renowned football club. As well as being successful a huge part of that is The Kop. We have to keep that part of us whilst also moving in to the future.

Just creating a new Kop which has no connection to the old (i.e. single tier) because it would make more money that way is kinda like Gucci deciding to turn itself into the new Primark as will make more cash. Granted the owners will be happy they have more profits, but it will be at the expense of everything they have spent the last 100yrs building up.

[Liveforthereds67]

The radical thing would be and the most contraversal would be to drop the Kop and have a new name for the stands if we do build a new ground. This is one of the reasons why I don't favour a new Ground, A new Kop would never be the same. If we stay then the Kop will be the Kop but it will never be the same if we move. Yes the Kop is those who are seated there but you can't  replicate the stand, other's have tried and failed. One thing I would like to see in any redevelopment or new build is the stands behind each goal being one tier. With away fans stuck in a conner of one of the side stands.

[CraigDS]

The radical thing would be and the most contraversal would be to drop the Kop and have a new name for the stands if we do build a new ground. This is one of the reasons why I don't favour a new Ground, A new Kop would never be the same. If we stay then the Kop will be the Kop but it will never be the same if we move. Yes the Kop is those who are seated there but you can't  replicate the stand, other's have tried and failed. One thing I would like to see in any redevelopment or new build is the stands behind each goal being one tier. With away fans stuck in a conner of one of the side stands.

Some would argue the Kop stopped being the Kop when it became all seated.

[Liveforthereds67]

Some would argue the Kop stopped being the Kop when it became all seated.

Yes you are right in saying that, once they seated the Kop I have only been on there once and did not really enjoy it. In the main I sit at the Anfield RD end with my lad, when we do go.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Care to elaborate?

Truth is, Xerxes is correct, we look back way too much, and we need to get with the times, be as radical and revolutionary as Shanks was 50 years ago. That doesnt mean we should definitly have a 2 tier Kop? No, what it does mean is that all posibilities should be investigated, considered and accepted or rejected accordingly. Very little (stadium related or otherwise) should be protected by dogma, or all we will do is stand still and eventually (as we have been doing for the last 20 years) move backwards.

When you go forward and be radical you are lost if you do not learn the lessons of the past.  Ever been in a proper two tier stand?  It completely destroys the atmosphere.  There is absolutely no chance of the whole stand singing as one.  Be as radical as you like but two separate overhanging tiers would be a disaster as far as attempting to preserve the atmosphere of the old Kop is concerned.

[stewy17]

Care to elaborate?

Truth is, Xerxes is correct, we look back way too much, and we need to get with the times, be as radical and revolutionary as Shanks was 50 years ago. That doesnt mean we should definitly have a 2 tier Kop? No, what it does mean is that all posibilities should be investigated, considered and accepted or rejected accordingly. Very little (stadium related or otherwise) should be protected by dogma, or all we will do is stand still and eventually (as we have been doing for the last 20 years) move backwards.

Couldn't disagree with you more on this.

The kop is a symbol of LFC, its something we're as proud of as we are of the team. People come from all over the world to stand on the kop and players far and wide have memories of the first time they seen/heard it.

It is absolutely vital that the kop is protected and developed to be the focal point of any stadium.

If you want to get rid of the kop you might as well stop singing You'll never walk alone, start wearing a blue home kit and get rid of the liverbird off the crest.

It isn't too much to ask to ensure a single tier kop, and too much will be lost if we don't keep it in any new stadium or redevelopment.

[xerxes1]

Couldn't disagree with you more on this.

What is there to disagree with on this?:

I would be quite happy with a new single tiered Kop at a new Anfield, apart from anything else it would help to distinguish us from the rest of the English top clubs.

The inate regressive tendencies of some never cease to amaze. There is a strong case for an iconic (single tier) Kop in a new stadium, any new stadium should be predicated not only on being financially viable, but also by being a bold statement of (hopefully) a bright new future.

The torpor of the past two decades can be broken. The ordinary man has been progessively priced out of the Kop, and other parts of the ground. Many of those who used to go every game can now only afford to go occasionally( see the reclaim the Kop thread). Instead of holding on to what is becoming an increasingly distant memory we need to be creating a bright, proud, future. Over to FSG.

[Peter McGurk]

Whilst I agree we should be looking to move forward you also have to keep a finger on what makes LFC such a world renowned football club. As well as being successful a huge part of that is The Kop. We have to keep that part of us whilst also moving in to the future.

Just creating a new Kop which has no connection to the old (i.e. single tier) because it would make more money that way is kinda like Gucci deciding to turn itself into the new Primark as will make more cash. Granted the owners will be happy they have more profits, but it will be at the expense of everything they have spent the last 100yrs building up.

Too true.  There's no need to throw the baby out with the bath water either emotionally or commercially.  If we lose our core values and 'devalue the brand', we going to lose on both counts.  If we accept that the 'ordinary man' is priced out and goodbye, we might just end up out of business as serious competitors or belonging to a business we want no part of (like this...

The torpor of the past two decades can be broken. The ordinary man has been progessively priced out of the Kop, and other parts of the ground. Many of those who used to go every game can now only afford to go occasionally( see the reclaim the Kop thread). Instead of holding on to what is becoming an increasingly distant memory we need to be creating a bright, proud, future.

From another thread...

"...There is no justification for increasing kop prices significantly (or enough to play catch up with the 'top clubs') but a new stadium gives us the chance to charge significantly more (bigger seats, all the rest...).  Not many (or not enough) who live around here [or wherever] will be able to afford it.  That particularly brave new world will be unrecognisable to us - either a stadium full of tourists or empty seats..."

...and it ain't too much to ensure a single-tiered kop and there's absolutely no advantage commercially, otherwise or what.so....ever to not having one.

[redprodigal]

When you go forward and be radical you are lost if you do not learn the lessons of the past.  Ever been in a proper two tier stand?  It completely destroys the atmosphere.  There is absolutely no chance of the whole stand singing as one.  Be as radical as you like but two separate overhanging tiers would be a disaster as far as attempting to preserve the atmosphere of the old Kop is concerned.

Spot on. Can't believe anybody who goes to the game could ever even consider this. Hopefully, and almost certainly, our owners will not have the brains of an ass when it comes to this decision.

[Mal]

This one's not bad:

That's fucking ace.

Oh, and Alan is spot on, Hicks' monstrosity must never be built.

[xerxes1]

Too true.  There's no need to throw the baby out with the bath water either emotionally or commercially.  If we lose our core values and 'devalue the brand', we going to lose on both counts.  If we accept that the 'ordinary man' is priced out and goodbye, we might just end up out of business as serious competitors or belonging to a business we want no part of (like this...

From another thread...

"...There is no justification for increasing kop prices significantly (or enough to play catch up with the 'top clubs') but a new stadium gives us the chance to charge significantly more (bigger seats, all the rest...).  Not many (or not enough) who live around here [or wherever] will be able to afford it.  That particularly brave new world will be unrecognisable to us - either a stadium full of tourists or empty seats..."

...and it ain't too much to ensure a single-tiered kop and there's absolutely no advantage commercially, otherwise or what.so....ever to not having one.

All good points, redevelopment offers no panacea in itself.

A part developed Anfield which under-delivers against our potential perpetuates the erosion of our pre-eminence which we have experienced over the past twenty years. The “brand” ( hate it) continues to erode, and our history remains just that. As it is now the ordinary man has already been increasingly priced out of the Kop ( £43 a ticket) because it suits the club to rotate the bums on seats. The tourists are here already. One season ticket may buy one replica shirt, 19 individual sales may sell 19 times that.

Any new stadium is predicated on a pricing profile which fills the stadium.

My preference is for a Kop in an iconic stadium, my point is that it is not a sine qua non.

Fear and caution are understandable and natural. After two decades without a title the nagging doubt will always be, “it could get worse”, rather than “this will make it better”. How ironic that the fears in the quote have already been realised – he just didn’t realise. It creeps up on you like that.

You can either make it happen, let it happen, or wonder what has happened – time for us to step up two gears.

[paul j]

Some would argue the Kop stopped being the Kop when it became all seated.

the kop didn't become all seater it was knocked down and a new stand built.fans need to take a reality check what is there now is a stand called the kop.its not the SPION KOP.the glawdys st at woodison became an all seater stand.

[Peter McGurk]

...redevelopment offers no panacea in itself.

But it does.  It offers the opportunity to make more money with less outlay and keep the 'ordinary man' as the heartbeat of the club.

[xerxes1]

But it does.  It offers the opportunity to make more money with less outlay and keep the 'ordinary man' as the heartbeat of the club.  You can't see that.  You never will.

A wonderful misrepresentation in a very few words. Even I smiled at the "Hovis" advert bit.

A limited redevelopment offers pretty much no prospect of making more money in the medium to long term. The ordinary man at £43 to sit on the Kop ? £64 for the right of a family of four to apply for tickets? Your view of the "ordinary man" is as far off beam as your grip on the finances.

Yout reluctance to boldly define the future, and take solace in what has passed, is understandable, it has riddled our club for 20 years and been the antithesis of the Liverpool Way which made us such a force for two and a half decades.

For two decades we have lacked the spending power of an Abrahamovic/ Mansour, or the boardroom acumen of a Fiszman/ Dein, Gill/Edwards, Levy. How FSG will shape up only time will tell.

I would be perfectly happy to remain at a redeveloped Anfield, I simply doubt that it is economic to do so sufficiently to compete at the top table, if it proves possible, fine.

Strictly on topic, my view that the consented scheme will not be built remains steadfast.

[Peter McGurk]

A wonderful misrepresentation in a very few words. Even I smiled at the "Hovis" advert bit.

I see this is your brave new world - the ordinary man priced out entirely, a new generation of affluent support who can afford Emirates prices.  Songsheets, plastic flags and idiot boards or better still - seated, docile and mute - just sit down, pay up and shut up.

You are clearly banking on this mythical market which even NESV have recognised is simply not there.  Come on man, you sell houses - how many houses did you sell to people who couldn't afford it last year and how many will you sell if you've priced the next generation out of the market?

The club's matchday revenue will be revolutionised by redeveloping Anfield.  It will 'take us to the next level'.  It will be state of the art commercially.  Better still, what we are will still be who we are.

[west_london_red]

When you go forward and be radical you are lost if you do not learn the lessons of the past.  Ever been in a proper two tier stand?  It completely destroys the atmosphere.  There is absolutely no chance of the whole stand singing as one.  Be as radical as you like but two separate overhanging tiers would be a disaster as far as attempting to preserve the atmosphere of the old Kop is concerned.

The only two tier stand i have been in is Anfield Road end, and to be honest i have found the atmosphere better then the main and centinary stands, although they are obviously very different stands.

And as i said in my original post, im not saying we should have two tiers, just saying it should be considered, along with any other possibilities. All i object to, is people saying 'no' to things without any reasoning.

[Peter McGurk]

The only two tier stand i have been in is Anfield Road end, and to be honest i have found the atmosphere better then the main and centinary stands, although they are obviously very different stands.

And as i said in my original post, im not saying we should have two tiers, just saying it should be considered, along with any other possibilities. All i object to, is people saying 'no' to things without any reasoning.

Yes but the question out of the reasoning is, what possible advantage does having two tiers have that outweighs the advantages of one?

[west_london_red]

Yes but the question out of the reasoning is, what possible advantage does having two tiers have that outweighs the advantages of one?

Only two things i can think of is that if we have one large tier (bigger then the current Kop) is that the roof becomes so high and far from the fans that the noise escapes out of the stadium, and possibly larger capacity from two tiers?

[Peter McGurk]

Only two things i can think of is that if we have one large tier (bigger then the current Kop) is that the roof becomes so high and far from the fans that the noise escapes out of the stadium, and possibly larger capacity from two tiers?

The acoustics argument for two tiers is a bit of a nonsense...

There are two parts to the noise (direct sound and reflected sound).  By far the more important is direct sound (particularly in stadia), so the more people singing in one voice (ie., the louder and clearer the source), the better.  The amount of reflected sound relies on the amount of hard surface available and the size of the space (reflected sound reduces clarity but can increase 'rumble')

For the same capacity there need be no change; for additional capacity, the 'noise' is potentially greater given there are more people making more noise in a larger volume with a similar ratio between volume to opening size.  The passion of the crowd singing directly at the pitch has much the greater effect than any hard reflective bits of stand (all surfaces absorb some sound but the biggest surface area is after all people ie., they absorb the most)

Breaking the stand into two tiers pretty much destroys the unity of the sound source (the crowd) and doesn't provide any bigger capacity (in fact rather less) unless you overlap them, maybe (only a maybe, because of sightlines and angles), which can crucify the views at the back of the lower tier (as in the Anfield Road) and produces conflicting sound paths and reflections, 'jumbling up' the sound and communication between different sections of the crowd - difficult/impossible to get stuff started and keep it going and use the 'full power'. 

[SMD]

Well I just got back from the game and I have to say that the Emirates Stadium is a pile of wank, soulless and overrated. All the problems of the new Wembley, I'd hate any new stadium or redevelopment to be like them.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Well I just got back from the game and I have to say that the Emirates Stadium is a pile of wank, soulless and overrated. All the problems of the new Wembley, I'd hate any new stadium or redevelopment to be like them.

I bet the Emirates fits Al's viewlines and distances plan extremely efficiently though.  Which is kind of my point, the design of a footy ground should not be over focussed on merely watching the spectacle.  There also needs to be a delineation between parts of the ground so that people are clear that this section is different to that section, different prices can be charged and different behaviour expected.

[SMD]

I bet the Emirates fits Al's viewlines and distances plan extremely efficiently though.  Which is kind of my point, the design of a footy ground should not be over focussed on merely watching the spectacle.  There also needs to be a delineation between parts of the ground so that people are clear that this section is different to that section, different prices can be charged and different behaviour expected.

Well yeah, you could 'see' everything but corner to corner was horrible, plus am I right in thinking that they've put the away fans in their equivalent of the Kop?

[the 92A]

I bet the Emirates fits Al's viewlines and distances plan extremely efficiently though.  Which is kind of my point, the design of a footy ground should not be over focussed on merely watching the spectacle.  There also needs to be a delineation between parts of the ground so that people are clear that this section is different to that section, different prices can be charged and different behaviour expected.

Good point Kev, In stadium terms Man City Arsenal are modern with good views but so souless, love the comfy seats at the emerites but that's not what I'm after at a football ground. I want my Home end to be special, standout with great acoustics and a feeling of oneness, I want the away supporters stuck up in a sound deadned obstructed view, no capacity bit. I'd design most of the ground with comfort built in and The kop without luxury, reflected in price, make the seats uncomfortable ledges to keep out the corporates, atmosphere vs comfort, it would be a start but then again I realise I'm a sad dinosaur looking to recreate the past in a modern setting. As someone pointed out up the thread, The Kop went with the standing, it was demolished, we need it to stand out from the rest of the ground, but as far as design goes we have an open brief.

[west_london_red]

Well I just got back from the game and I have to say that the Emirates Stadium is a pile of wank, soulless and overrated. All the problems of the new Wembley, I'd hate any new stadium or redevelopment to be like them.

Gotta remember though that Highburry wasnt exactly a couldron of noise either. I think a lot of it has to do with the fans themselves, and this is fortunatly somewhere where we compare better to most fans.

[SMD]

Gotta remember though that Highburry wasnt exactly a couldron of noise either. I think a lot of it has to do with the fans themselves, and this is fortunatly somewhere where we compare better to most fans.

Yep but the stadium itself is just...boring.

[xerxes1]

There are two parts to the noise (direct sound and reflected sound).  By far the more important is direct sound (particularly in stadia), so the more people singing in one voice (ie., the louder and clearer the source), the better.  The amount of reflected sound relies on the amount of hard surface available and the size of the space (reflected sound reduces clarity but can increase 'rumble')

For the same capacity there need be no change; for additional capacity, the 'noise' is potentially greater given there are more people making more noise in a larger volume with a similar ratio between volume to opening size.  The passion of the crowd singing directly at the pitch has much the greater effect than any hard reflective bits of stand (all surfaces absorb some sound but the biggest surface area is after all people ie., they absorb the most)

Breaking the stand into two tiers pretty much destroys the unity of the sound source (the crowd) and doesn't provide any bigger capacity (in fact rather less) unless you overlap them, maybe (only a maybe, because of sightlines and angles), which can crucify the views at the back of the lower tier (as in the Anfield Road) and produces conflicting sound paths and reflections, 'jumbling up' the sound and communication between different sections of the crowd - difficult/impossible to get stuff started and keep it going and use the 'full power'. 

It’s worth clearing some of this up.

Single tier stands are capable of generating more noise than split tiers. But the bigger the capacity, the higher the roof and the more leakage of sound occurs. There will be a mathematical formula out there for the optimum balance of capacity and sound. It is not “the bigger the better”.
The Holte End is the biggest   solus end stand in England, currently with a capacity of around 13,500. Songs rarely start from the lower Holte because the roof is too high. This is exacerbated because the stand is two tiered. The reason for this is two fold. The first is to accommodate two levels of banqueting space in the Holte Suite underneath, the second was safe spectator flow. Both considerations will apply to a new Kop.

Overhung tiers do create disproportionately greater capacity for noise because more people are closer to the roofing, but are also disruptive to mass unison singing, and typically create poor views towards the back.

This is a useful debate. Creating a 21st Century stadium capable of embracing 20th Century football traditions is no easy task.

[Peter McGurk]

It’s worth clearing some of this up... the bigger the capacity, the higher the roof and the more leakage of sound occurs...

Tosh.

The mathematical formula you are looking for relates reverberation time to the volume and the amount and reflectivity of the internal surfaces.  Enjoy...

http://webphysics.davidson.edu/faculty/dmb/py115/ReverbCalc.html

As I explained hopefully in simpler terms above, if you have a big box, with lots of solid walls, floor and ceiling and a relatively small opening, the sound can be "bigger". 

Unfortunately the largest of these areas by far is people, who are soft and squidgy and absorb sound, so the reverberation effect is relatively small compared to shouting directly at the pitch.  I dare say, the sound coming back off the underside of the roof comes back to the crowd and makes it sound louder to them, which encourages them to shout directly at the pitch even louder.  The angle of the roof can have more effect (if it doesn't vibrate - but being light, it will) ie., as long as you can see the pitch to shout directly at it and there's lots of you, your going to make a big noise.

It is also doubtful that you can increase capacity with a double tier because of the increased rake and sightline requirements.  so unless you want boxes in the kop, forget it.

If you really want the roof to do the job as a reflector - angle it upwards rather than down and build it out of smooth concrete (see Hollywood Bowl) or this (unfortunately it's tiny - concrete being so bleedin' heavy...





Of course it doesn't matter so much in Spain (or LA) when it rains...

[The Las]

`could you not hang a number of microphones from the roof and amplify the sound through a PA?

[Peter McGurk]

`could you not hang a number of microphones from the roof and amplify the sound through a PA?

yep

[Alan_X]

Well yeah, you could 'see' everything but corner to corner was horrible, plus am I right in thinking that they've put the away fans in their equivalent of the Kop?

Were you in block 23? I was in 20 right next to the Arsenal fans and the view was shite. At the Emirates the 'singing' section (yeah I know) is the North stand. We were all in the Clock End - the equivalent of the Anfield Road.

The Emirates is a horrible stadium Kev. Seat spacing and row spacing are too generous in the 'cheap seats' andas Peter has pointed out, the 'ring of silence' or Club Level all round makes the lower tier too flat. The exaggerated scalloping (a result of optimising viewing distances) means the West stand doesn't properly shield the East stand  (where I was standing) from the sun. I could hardly see the pitch for part of the second half because the sun was in my eyes.

We need a balance of seat spacing and row spacing. The Kop should be tighter than the grandstands.

[SMD]

Were you in block 23? I was in 20 right next to the Arsenal fans and the view was shite. At the Emirates the 'singing' section (yeah I know) is the North stand. We were all in the Clock End - the equivalent of the Anfield Road.

The Emirates is a horrible stadium Kev. Seat spacing and row spacing are too generous in the 'cheap seats' andas Peter has pointed out, the 'ring of silence' or Club Level all round makes the lower tier too flat. The exaggerated scalloping (a result of optimising viewing distances) means the West stand doesn't properly shield the East stand  (where I was standing) from the sun. I could hardly see the pitch for part of the second half because the sun was in my eyes.

We need a balance of seat spacing and row spacing. The Kop should be tighter than the grandstands.

Block 21, in the corner so right next to you. Is that really their Annie Road? I thought the Clock End was 'their' end?

[shelovesyou]

`could you not hang a number of microphones from the roof and amplify the sound through a PA?

Wouldnt be ideal to be honest but totally possible.
Be mega if you played with some EQ and Reverbs though.

[Peter McGurk]

...We need a balance of seat spacing and row spacing. The Kop should be tighter than the grandstands.

As you know Alan, the minimum size for new seats is bigger than what we've got now, so a new kop would be less tight.

[Alan_X]

Block 21, in the corner so right next to you. Is that really their Annie Road? I thought the Clock End was 'their' end?

The Arsenal fans I went to school with all went on the North Bank.

Arsenal Song:

A bow legged chicken, and a cross eyed hen,
I ain’t had a w*nk, since I don’t know when,
We walk with a wiggle, we walk with a swank,
We are the Arsenal North Bank!

Our song:

Said Bertie Mee, To Bill Shankly
"Have you heard of the North Bank, Highbury ?"
Shanks said "No, I don't think so,
But I've heard of the Anny Road aggro"