Topic: Harvey Elliott (Harvey Daniel James Elliott)

[ScottScott]

I think both Bradley and Quansah will go further than Harvey eventually, even though they have similar status in the squad now. They have that atheleticism that Harvey is missing, and which I personally think will limit him from becoming a real top player at the level of say Mac.  But thats just a guess of course, and it doesnt make him a bad player.

He needs to stop playing those loose, low crosses through midfield though, we get punished badly

I'm assuming you mean speed here because I'd say Elliott is probably the fittest player we have and puts himself about for 90 (and 120) minutes with very little drop off

He also has more than enough technical ability to make up for any lack of speed (which is massively overblown). Look at Macca at the minute, slower than Harvey and yet he's the best CM in the league currently. Harvey can do the same, use his ability and his workrate to dominate in the middle. Plus he'll only get better as he learns more about his role and how the game can be played

[Fromola]

I'm assuming you mean speed here because I'd say Elliott is probably the fittest player we have and puts himself about for 90 (and 120) minutes with very little drop off

He also has more than enough technical ability to make up for any lack of speed (which is massively overblown). Look at Macca at the minute, slower than Harvey and yet he's the best CM in the league currently. Harvey can do the same, use his ability and his workrate to dominate in the middle. Plus he'll only get better as he learns more about his role and how the game can be played

And look at what Henderson achieved. He was our key midfielder in a team that won everything (and even in 13/14 when we should have won the league).

[Knight]

Elliot has outstanding technical ability and it’ll certainly make up for his athletic limitations. It already has. He’s 20 and has how many appearances? That said I’m not convinced by some of the comparisons in here. Milner was strong and powerful at his peak as well as being able to run all day. Elliot can run all day but doesn’t have the sort of power that used to make Milner a driving wide midfielder before he moved more central. Henderson was athletically brilliant. Quick across the ground, strong in duels. It’s not just that he could run all day, he’d also get to the ball first. Elliot doesn’t quite have that. MacAllister is so good at being in the right place in CM whilst not being the quickest, hopefully Elliot will develop that as he gets older.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Elliot has outstanding technical ability and it’ll certainly make up for his athletic limitations. It already has. He’s 20 and has how many appearances? That said I’m not convinced by some of the comparisons in here. Milner was strong and powerful at his peak as well as being able to run all day. Elliot can run all day but doesn’t have the sort of power that used to make Milner a driving wide midfielder before he moved more central. Henderson was athletically brilliant. Quick across the ground, strong in duels. It’s not just that he could run all day, he’d also get to the ball first. Elliot doesn’t quite have that. MacAllister is so good at being in the right place in CM whilst not being the quickest, hopefully Elliot will develop that as he gets older.

Who's this 'Elliot' of which you speak?

[Stan.]

There’s no ‘athletic limitations’.  By virtue of his game time in a Klopp side, he has the stamina and strength to play at the top level.  Technically he’s excellent, so creative and puts in a fantastic defensive shift.  It’s almost like he’s so good at everything, that people can’t pigeon hole him and just class him as average. If he lacks anything it’s only some explosive pace, but few players have that anyway.  Seems to have the right sort of attitude and mentality too…honestly this season I think he’s been fantastic and the lad’s not even 21 yet.

[BriarcliffInmate]

There’s no ‘athletic limitations’.  By virtue of his game time in a Klopp side, he has the stamina and strength to play at the top level.  Technically he’s excellent, so creative and puts in a fantastic defensive shift.  It’s almost like he’s so good at everything, that people can’t pigeon hole him and just class him as average. If he lacks anything it’s only some explosive pace, but few players have that anyway.  Seems to have the right sort of attitude and mentality too…honestly this season I think he’s been fantastic and the lad’s not even 21 yet.

This is exactly it. The only thing he doesn't have is lightning pace and height. But he's got everything else to compensate for it, and he has an engine that means he's a pressing machine.

You can tell he's played under Klopp for longer because he's developed that, whereas Jarell and Conor can be flagging by 60 minutes because this is their first season doing it. Now if Xabi or a similar athletic-minded manager comes, they'll get another season to develop their engines.

[Knight]

We may or may not agree with his lack of pace being an ‘athletic limitation’ but it’s not simply that he isn’t lightning quick. Rather he often appears to be one of the slower players on the pitch when you watch him. And I’d argue that, given the clear importance of pace to the modern game, his lack of pace is a genuine limitation. I think he’ll be good enough to make up for it though.

[Asam]

He 20 years old and not perfect in every single way, shoot the bastard

[WhereAngelsPlay]

By their age, he will be more than twice the player of Mount and Gallagher.

People have been banging on about his pace since we got him, hasn't held him back any, because they were as wrong then as they are now.

[Schmidt]

By their age, he will be more than twice the player of Mount and Gallagher.

People have been banging on about his pace since we got him, hasn't held him back any, because they were as wrong then as they are now.

He's not quick and it absolutely does have an effect, there's nothing controversial about that and acknowledging it isn't akin to writing him off.

[Knight]

He's not quick and it absolutely does have an effect, there's nothing controversial about that and acknowledging it isn't akin to writing him off.

Absolutely. I really rate him and really like him, it's so good to see a player with such clear passion for the club. He absolutely empties himself for us every time he plays and is clearly overjoyed when he scores. So my worries about pace are because I rate him and really want him to become absolutely world class. I'm just fretting. And like you say I'm not fretting about something which is irrelevant, it's not.

[SamLad]

He 20 years old and not perfect in every single way, shoot the bastard

but first, hang him by the balls outside Anfield for a few weeks so some RAWK posters can whack him with a stick every day.

[JackWard33]

I'm a bore on this topic.. I accept that.. but why do we need to debate his pace or anything else anymore when he's doing this at 20?

https://fbref.com/en/players/b9e1436c/Harvey-Elliott

I'm not sure I get the discussion anymore... 2+ years ago when he was a prospect ,sure, but he's basically outstanding at the top level of football - right now, today.. .and he's probably 3 or 4 years from his peak
So we can talk about how good he can get I guess but when people talk about him not being quick or strong or some shit it just reads like it's a discussion about someone at Bobby Clark's point of his career not where Elliott is
If his physical limitations were a problem he wouldn't be able to get on the ball at the top level or keep the ball or play under pressure etc etc .. he has no such problems .. I mean the kid is in the top 3rd percentile for progressive carries how slow can he be?
Yeah pace is a thing but football isnt a 100 metre running race lads!

[Schmidt]

I'm a bore on this topic.. I accept that.. but why do we need to debate his pace or anything else anymore when he's doing this at 20?

https://fbref.com/en/players/b9e1436c/Harvey-Elliott

I'm not sure I get the discussion anymore... 2+ years ago when he was a prospect ,sure, but he's basically outstanding at the top level of football - right now, today.. .and he's probably 3 or 4 years from his peak
So we can talk about how good he can get I guess but when people talk about him not being quick or strong or some shit it just reads like it's a discussion about someone at Bobby Clark's point of his career not where Elliott is
If his physical limitations were a problem he wouldn't be able to get on the ball at the top level or keep the ball or play under pressure etc etc .. he has no such problems .. I mean the kid is in the top 3rd percentile for progressive carries how slow can he be?
Yeah pace is a thing but football isnt a 100 metre running race lads!

It's useful when discussing where he can play for us, how it effects the team and how it matches up with opponents. He's had some good performances in Salah's position for example but his lack of pace and physicality does result in him struggling to run onto passes in behind or beat a player 1 on 1, so if he were to play there longer term we'd need to alter the team elsewhere. Similarly, a season ago he was one of the last players I'd want to see starting in midfield against City because they could easily isolate him and force him off the ball, but since then he has improved a lot at keeping mobile when receiving the ball so he can't be surrounded and pinned down as easily.

Ultimately, we're just here to discuss football because we don't have anything better to do, and discussing a players strengths and weaknesses is part of that, so I'll keep doing it regardless of how much others try to dictate what can and can't be said.

[SamLad]

I'm a bore on this topic.. I accept that.. but why do we need to debate his pace or anything else anymore when he's doing this at 20?

https://fbref.com/en/players/b9e1436c/Harvey-Elliott

I'm not sure I get the discussion anymore... 2+ years ago when he was a prospect ,sure, but he's basically outstanding at the top level of football - right now, today.. .and he's probably 3 or 4 years from his peak
So we can talk about how good he can get I guess but when people talk about him not being quick or strong or some shit it just reads like it's a discussion about someone at Bobby Clark's point of his career not where Elliott is
If his physical limitations were a problem he wouldn't be able to get on the ball at the top level or keep the ball or play under pressure etc etc .. he has no such problems .. I mean the kid is in the top 3rd percentile for progressive carries how slow can he be?
Yeah pace is a thing but football isnt a 100 metre running race lads!

That Fowler bloke wasn't much in the supreme speedster ratings.  Surprised we gave him a look-in.

[JackWard33]

It's useful when discussing where he can play for us, how it effects the team and how it matches up with opponents. He's had some good performances in Salah's position for example but his lack of pace and physicality does result in him struggling to run onto passes in behind or beat a player 1 on 1, so if he were to play there longer term we'd need to alter the team elsewhere. Similarly, a season ago he was one of the last players I'd want to see starting in midfield against City because they could easily isolate him and force him off the ball, but since then he has improved a lot at keeping mobile when receiving the ball so he can't be surrounded and pinned down as easily.

Ultimately, we're just here to discuss football because we don't have anything better to do, and discussing a players strengths and weaknesses is part of that, so I'll keep doing it regardless of how much others try to dictate what can and can't be said.

Whoa.. thats a bit testy... Have some mini eggs!
No one's dictating anything - its just not super interesting anymore that he's not that quick imo because its been the same point for his entire time with us .. if you / others are into it, have at it...

[SamLad]

Whoa.. thats a bit testy... Have some mini eggs!
No one's dictating anything - its just not super interesting anymore that he's not that quick imo because its been the same point for his entire time with us .. if you / others are into it, have at it...

some posters seem to think if they repeatedly post opinions most people see as weak or without merit, sooner or later everyone will agree with them.
winning (or losing) a debate on online won't be [or better not be!] top of mind when you're on your deathbed is it.

[RyanBabel19]

The pace things a funny one. He's an exceptional talent and pace can 100% be worked around, some of the best talents to grace this league weren't the quickest... that old saying of the first few yards being in your head springs to mind.

He's quick enough IMO been saying that since he was ripping it up at Blackburn and people are VERY focused on Klopp football (understandably as he's our manager) but it's important to remember we will have a new manager and different set up next season. Elliott is a 10, he's been class in other positions but if you want to see him and his attributes at their best I reckon in the 10 position you'll see another level... which is insane to imagine.

Before he came back from his loan the main things I felt were outstanding attributes in his game were his weight of pass and courage to play the pass once he spots it. He's decisive and although it wont always come off he has the confidence to play those risky game deciding passes. He can hit one from distance and isn't afraid to have a pop, he presses well and can play one touch football as well as anyone in our side. If we eventually change to a system in which we play with a 10 he will light up this league, he's still extremely underrated even amongst our own fanbase sometimes

David Silva was one of the most devastating players to grace this league, not being the quickest never held him back, speed of thought is a killer and i've seen many a fast player humiliated by a quick thinker, no one will ever be quicker than the ball. Thankfully, Elliott is has that speed of thought required to excel. He's a joy to watch... the kids flicking the ball up and hitting rabona passes in games ffs

[Redley]

Never mind pace, I’ve just seen he’s done a ‘battle of the eras’ thing with Millie…and he thought Fight Club was a game  He’ll never be world class

[Red Beret]

Never mind pace, I’ve just seen he’s done a ‘battle of the eras’ thing with Millie…and he thought Fight Club was a game  He’ll never be world class

In Elliot's defence, how is he supposed to know what Fight Club is when the first rule of Fight Club is not to talk about Fight Club?

[Schmidt]

Whoa.. thats a bit testy... Have some mini eggs!
No one's dictating anything - its just not super interesting anymore that he's not that quick imo because its been the same point for his entire time with us .. if you / others are into it, have at it...

Not you specifically, but some definitely do go out of their way to take digs at anyone that offers anything other than unbridled praise in here.

some posters seem to think if they repeatedly post opinions most people see as weak or without merit, sooner or later everyone will agree with them.
winning (or losing) a debate on online won't be [or better not be!] top of mind when you're on your deathbed is it.

And some posters care more about taking digs at other posters for sharing their opinions than offering their own.

but first, hang him by the balls outside Anfield for a few weeks so some RAWK posters can whack him with a stick every day.

That Fowler bloke wasn't much in the supreme speedster ratings.  Surprised we gave him a look-in.

[JP!]

It's a funny one for me as I've never really watched Elliott and thought he lacked pace...yet it seems to come up constantly on here.

I've just seen a pretty good player constantly developing.  Not everyone ticks every box and I'm not sure we've got a ton of pace merchants in midfield anyway to be honest.

Have often thought he might have actually been an interesting Thiago-like player but I think his development as an 8 probably proves me wrong on that score.

[Schmidt]

It's a funny one for me as I've never really watched Elliott and thought he lacked pace...yet it seems to come up constantly on here.

I've just seen a pretty good player constantly developing.  Not everyone ticks every box and I'm not sure we've got a ton of pace merchants in midfield anyway to be honest.

Have often thought he might have actually been an interesting Thiago-like player but I think his development as an 8 probably proves me wrong on that score.

It was more relevant in our previous set up IMO as the 8's did a lot of hard work filling gaps and tracking runners. It was expected that the likes of Henderson, Gini and Milner would do the dirty work first and foremost while the rest of the team contributed to the attack, which led to us looking a bit soft when Harvey would fill in. Elliot's lack of pace and strength was a bigger factor then, but as our play has evolved and those positions have become more about contributing to the attack it's been less of an issue.

He also did struggle a bit earlier this season when pressed in games, particularly in the first half when teams would come flying at us at every opportunity, as he didn't have the strength to hold players off or the pace to get away from them, but he seems to be learning how to mitigate that with constant movement.

[Stan.]

By their age, he will be more than twice the player of Mount and Gallagher.

People have been banging on about his pace since we got him, hasn't held him back any, because they were as wrong then as they are now.

It was only an issue because everyone thought he was a winger.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Only player other than Salah who looks to play penetrating passes. Should have been on from the start but certainly on for the start of the second half against these ponies.

[Yorkykopite]

Only player other than Salah who looks to play penetrating passes. Should have been on from the start but certainly on for the start of the second half against these ponies.

Agreed Funky. He proves himself over and over again.

[Fromola]

Only player other than Salah who looks to play penetrating passes. Should have been on from the start but certainly on for the start of the second half against these ponies.

Surprised Grav's got the nod ahead of him a few times this season.

[Schmidt]

Yeah this is the type of game that suits him from the start, though we may have decided to play it safe and go with a more physical midfield initially in case Sheffield decided to be a bit more aggressive. I was pretty baffled that we brought him on for Salah but after a few more subs it worked out.

[MonsLibpool]

He should be starting more games. Adds urgency to our play.

[y2w902]

Made a big impact again, great little player who had no qualms taking Salahs place.

[Wool]

Surprised Grav's got the nod ahead of him a few times this season.

Ludicrous decision each time.

[farawayred]

Surprised Grav's got the nod ahead of him a few times this season.

Maybe because of the opponents and Grav needed rhythm? Not that he's bad, but we couldn't afford to do that against the Mancs.

[Knight]

How many games has Grav been preferred to him in a PL game?

[RedSince86]

Been brilliant coming on off the Bench this season.

Pretty good cameo on his Birthday.

[SamLad]

not bad today, but he's getting old though.

[Historical Fool]

That Fowler bloke wasn't much in the supreme speedster ratings.  Surprised we gave him a look-in.

Wasn’t he tearing up the academy, and had a dream debut and early career? A lot of it is down to circumstance too, but I don’t think many are surprised that Fowler was given a chance, he had talent in spades. Just like ElioT, he was a generational talent speed or no speed …

[Bennett]

How many games has Grav been preferred to him in a PL game?

Too many.

[Kashinoda]

Gravenberch was starting to play well prior to his injury, think people have forgotten that.

If you're going to pick a game to get a player minutes it was this one. Klopp isn't above question but his management of the squad has been impeccable this season.

[Redley]

I genuinely think that we're using him from the bench because we know he's likely to have a big impact from there and we don't have many others that can do the same. I don't think its that we think he's playing worse than Grav or whatever, but we just prefer the impact he's currently having against a tiring defence.

Its working, so I dont really think there needs to be too much hand-wringing that he's not starting that many games.

...he's also not been that productive when he has started. He's got one goal and four assists in 21 starts (1721 minutes), and he's got two goals and four assists coming on as a sub 22 times (520 minutes). Pretty elite stats as a sub, and nowhere near elite as a starter.

[Knight]

I genuinely think that we're using him from the bench because we know he's likely to have a big impact from there and we don't have many others that can do the same. I don't think its that we think he's playing worse than Grav or whatever, but we just prefer the impact he's currently having against a tiring defence.

Its working, so I dont really think there needs to be too much hand-wringing that he's not starting that many games.

...he's also not been that productive when he has started. He's got one goal and four assists in 21 starts (1721 minutes), and he's got two goals and four assists coming on as a sub 22 times (520 minutes). Pretty elite stats as a sub, and nowhere near elite as a starter.

Small sample sizes but interesting point. Don’t suppose anyone knows if his underlying stats are noticeably better in minutes off the bench than minutes from the start?