Topic: Labour Thread * No Gaza *

[west_london_red]

Just on this point, I don't think 'obstructionism' is as much of a problem as you make out.

The problem with the house building aspect is that policy is far too in thrall to the demands of the major house builders.

They only want to build in large/huge housing estates where they can be on for months/years and deliver economies of scale to maximise their profits. And they press for greenfield sites as they don't have to do anything like as much remedial work and can also sell for a premium price.

Then there's the 'land banking', where they hold onto parcels of land with planning permission for a number of years so they can control supply in order to ensure there's always an excess of demand over supply, thus keeping prices inflated and not having to discount to shift unsold houses.

The vast majority of 'brownfield' sites are relatively small (up to 50 dwellings size) that the major house builders aren't interested in (but in some cases own, in order to prevent other - smaller - builders developing them).

What we often see now is a village of, say, 500 homes having a housing estate of another 200 homes built on its edge on formerly agricultural land. It destroys the character of the village, depreciates the environment, and breaks local infrastructure/services. If ten local villages had 20 extra houses built, it would be far better and much more sustainable and absorbable.

But the major house builders don't want that.

I can understand the Tories kowtowing to the big house building corporates. These huge companies and their owners/major shareholders/executives have been consistent donors to the Tory Party for decades - and we all know how the Tories love the 'he who pays the piper' ethos.

But quite why Labour are so subservient to these corporates is beyond me.


My own preference would be for Labour to embark on a massive programme of social housing using the old council housing model (not housing associations, which although nominally not-for-profit, are a cashcow for their owners in the form of huge salary 'packages'). A minimum of 250k a year (ideally closer to 500k). And rent them out on a not-for-profit basis.

This would subvert the private rental market, bringing down private rental prices. Especially if accompanied by a new 'bill of rights' for renters (including a ban on non-fault evictions, and strict price rise controls) and punitive taxation on large landlords that own, say, more than 10 or 20 properties. That in turn would lead to a moderate and relatively gradual correction in house prices full stop.

i say this as a home owner (but one who recognises that the housing market in this country is fucked, particularly for new buyers)

As I said before when you previously posted on the subject:

I’m really not so sure it’s that easy or a good idea (at least if you live in the area). I grew up in an area called Hounslow West near Heathrow Airport, already a pretty well developed area the population has grown by over 50% in the last 20 years (and in reality it’s probably higher as there a decent number of illegal migrants) and it’s basically turned into an expensive slum now. Every bit of empty space where there wasn’t homes now has homes built on it, car parks, bits of grass, all have flats on them now, office blocks have been reconfigured into flats, pubs knocked down for flats, houses turned into HMOs, the old army barracks is being demolished and 1500 flats build on it, the council sold the civic centre building and land to build hundreds of flats and it’s not slowing down, 400 flats to be built in the underground stations car park and it’s simply unbearable living there now it is that crowded.

[filopastry]

Cause most of them are poorly thought out and hardly any consist of social/affordable housing.

Knowing the people objecting I can assure you putting in more social housing would only increase the objections!

[Red-Soldier]

Knowing the people objecting I can assure you putting in more social housing would only increase the objections!

 

[Nobby Reserve]

As I said before when you previously posted on the subject:

I’m really not so sure it’s that easy or a good idea (at least if you live in the area). I grew up in an area called Hounslow West near Heathrow Airport, already a pretty well developed area the population has grown by over 50% in the last 20 years (and in reality it’s probably higher as there a decent number of illegal migrants) and it’s basically turned into an expensive slum now. Every bit of empty space where there wasn’t homes now has homes built on it, car parks, bits of grass, all have flats on them now, office blocks have been reconfigured into flats, pubs knocked down for flats, houses turned into HMOs, the old army barracks is being demolished and 1500 flats build on it, the council sold the civic centre building and land to build hundreds of flats and it’s not slowing down, 400 flats to be built in the underground stations car park and it’s simply unbearable living there now it is that crowded.

Then use further regulation to counter that. It's the lite-touch regulation espoused by Tories and the right-wing which has created all the problems you list. They want a wild west free-for-all so shysters and spivs can make a killing (at the expense of the majority)

[oldfordie]

If people really want real change for the good then at least acknowledge it when it happens.
Ive seen a massive change in the publics perception of the Tory party, ive never known any thing like it before in decades, the all as bad as each other ignorance had been challenged for the first time ever, the public now frown when Torys tactics of turning the focus on Labour to avoid scrutiny when they cheered and clapped the deflection smears in the past. it doesn't matter if you are left or center left everyone benefits from this, it may change how people vote for decades.
People talk about dragging the Labour party to the left. how about taking the same logic and applying it to the Torys.? how about thinking about dragging the Torys to the left as well. so how do you drag the Torys to the left.
For me the most important thing is the Torys are annihilated at the next election. this is absolutely vital as it will effect lives for decades. even a small Labour majority won't be enough to change the Torys, they have to be taught a lesson they will never forget, the only thing they will listen too is being decimated at the ballot box as they will be forced to face facts, the public now look at them as populists, right wing corrupt incompetent extremists who do only think of themselves. that has to mean they come back with a completely different attitude to try and win the publics confidence again, they will have to move to the left, they will have to get rid of the embarrassing populists who will try and carry on as they are today.
This was on the cards over the last few months, lets hope it stays like that for many years to come.

Starmer will bring in massive change for the good. I doubt he will shout about it from the rooftops though, I hope he does when they are in power going into the following election but not a good idea going into the next election.
There are many ways to help people through the backdoor and am sure this will happen as it did under the last Labour government.
Am very optimistic when it comes to how the people of this country vote in the future, anyone living on the breadline with a tenner a week to feed the family will be the biggest winners when Labour win the next election, a more competent government will help solve many of our problems as well. it will take time for us to recover to where we were before the Torys got in back in 2010.

[Nobby Reserve]

Starmer will bring in massive change for the good.

Again, what changes do you think he will bring in? (genuine question)

[Draex]

I don't understand how you aren't getting what this thread is about? You and others just snipe and snipe and snipe and we get it. You hate Labour. You hate Starmer. You love Corbyn. You want a Socialist utopia.

I don't hate Starmer, I think he'd be an excellent leader to run the country. I also don't hate Corbyn just think he wasn't electable in this country, but his manifesto was solid.

I do however think Starmer has made an utter car crash of his views and comments on the current hostilities in the middle east, a ceasefire is needed.

[filopastry]

Please lets not turn this into another locked Middle East thread

[oldfordie]

Again, what changes do you think he will bring in? (genuine question)

Does taking people out of poverty count and improving everyone's standard of living, bringing our services back to a level we enjoyed before the Torys took over. they will get a grip of the companys who have exploited our country, the energy companies, water companies.
There are millions of people who are left with around a Tenner left in their arse pockets a week, more and more are being added as inflation hits. kids are suffering, NHS, Education and services a shadow of their former selves. these are the things that matter yet this doesn't seem to be important to some. helping millions of people is just tinkering with the system.
Labour have listed their policys many times but they keep getting ignored. I could copy and paste them but they will get ignored, they said they will tear up non doms, they will clamp down on tax evasion. same with the NHS but it all gets ignored, the get attacked for wanting to privatise when all they want to do is actually help people who are suffering.
I think this is the biggest problem Labour have always had, people can't seem to tell the difference in the Torys ideology and the Labour partys ideology, one wants to screw you in every way possible, the other wants to help you in everyway possible, nothing will change until this sort of thinking changes. they are even accused of moving away from Labours roots, unbelievable, Labour are now defending the same basic issues the Labour party was formed to fight for.
I know Labour will improve lives, that's all they have ever done when they have been in power. even debating this makes me think we have lost our way.

[killer-heels]

I see Rachel Reeves has had the seal of approval from Ken Clarke….

[Nobby Reserve]

I see Rachel Reeves has had the seal of approval from Ken Clarke….

For a Tory, he was alright.

But still a Tory.

For him to give approval to a Labour would-be Chancellor is a concern.

[killer-heels]

For a Tory, he was alright.

But still a Tory.

For him to give approval to a Labour would-be Chancellor is a concern.

He was alright on the question of Europe, not on financial/economy matters. Place him in the Ousbourne camp.

[Red-Soldier]

I see Rachel Reeves has had the seal of approval from Ken Clarke….

With no new money, it'll be interesting to see how things improve, over the next five years.

I assume eficiency savings will only go so far.

[Nobby Reserve]

He was alright on the question of Europe

He (along with most of the other Tory Remainers, most LDs and some Labour MPs) still refused to accept Labour's proposal of a 'temporary government of national unity' to ensure the Brexit zealots weren't able to plough through a hard Brexit and instead get a second referendum.

[killer-heels]

With no new money, it'll be interesting to see how things improve, over the next five years.

I assume eficiency savings will only go so far.

At the start it was about investment which produced returns being backed but that promise has dwindled away and pretty much closing that non dom tax loophole raising £3bn is doing ALL the heavy lifting. I find it hilarious that Labour MP’s still spout that one on TV.

I am hoping that it’s purely for election messaging reasons that they are being cautious and/or they have some stuff lined up in their pre election manifesto.

One things for sure, they dont get a pass or a period of grace once they come into office. I am expecting improvement in public services from the moment they get into office or at least positive steps in that direction. This is not our football side, they dont deserve blind loyalty.

[reddebs]

NIMBY = Not In My Back Yard
YIMBY = Yes In My Back Yard

Is there any chance there might be local councils/governing bodies who might say that they can support development of such and such a size and such and such a type? I don't count councils selling off land to developers for money, but councils saying that they could support a certain level of additional development in their area.

Oh I get it now thanks 👍

I've no idea mate.  I have very little understanding of how that type of politics works and I'm unsure how the council stuff is relevant to what I suggested or even if that's what you meant 🤷

[Dr. Beaker]

At the start it was about investment which produced returns being backed but that promise has dwindled away and pretty much closing that non dom tax loophole raising £3bn is doing ALL the heavy lifting. I find it hilarious that Labour MP’s still spout that one on TV.

I am hoping that it’s purely for election messaging reasons that they are being cautious and/or they have some stuff lined up in their pre election manifesto.

One things for sure, they dont get a pass or a period of grace once they come into office. I am expecting improvement in public services from the moment they get into office or at least poseritive steps in that direction. This is not our football side, they dont deserve blind loyalty.

But it's not The Poseidon Adventure, where the skipper says, "Full astern", and all the tables and chairs fall over.

[west_london_red]

Then use further regulation to counter that. It's the lite-touch regulation espoused by Tories and the right-wing which has created all the problems you list. They want a wild west free-for-all so shysters and spivs can make a killing (at the expense of the majority)

So you regulate to prevent areas from becoming over developed and populated, where do you build the homes then? And that that the other thing, when it’s brownfield sites many are not large enough for houses so they build flats. Great if that’s what you want, but if you want a house it becomes nigh on impossible to build more then a couple at a time in a brownfield site which doesn’t make a dent on the actual demand. Look at house prices compared to flat prices and the trajectory is very different.

[Nobby Reserve]

So you regulate to prevent areas from becoming over developed and populated, where do you build the homes then?

In areas less overcrowded?

 

Your post describes exactly was what I was saying about it being a wild west free for all.

How does it benefit either existing or new residents in the area to cram so many people in so tight?

The Tory mentality is to say "well, it's the free market in action, we shouldn't do anything" but I say "fuck that"

I also said I'd look to implement a huge programme of building social housing (confiscate sites that are 'land banked' by housebuilders)

[Andy @ Allerton!]

In areas less overcrowded?

 

Your post describes exactly was what I was saying about it being a wild west free for all.

How does it benefit either existing or new residents in the area to cram so many people in so tight?

The Tory mentality is to say "well, it's the free market in action, we shouldn't do anything" but I say "fuck that"

I also said I'd look to implement a huge programme of building social housing (confiscate sites that are 'land banked' by housebuilders)

He asked

"So you regulate to prevent areas from becoming over developed and populated, where do you build the homes then?"

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Not sure people are quite getting the idea of this thread. If it's to debate stuff then honestly, feel absolutely free to start your own thread

x


You can. Do it. This is to look at the positives. I'm not affecetd by any of this shite these inbred Tory c*nts have done to our country. Nothing at all. No kids. Live in a great part of Liverpool and everything is grand.

But it fucking isn't. These c*nts are ruining our country. They are wrecking our schools and sense of justice and a million other fucking things we'll be counting the cost of for years to come.

This thread is not to debate Labour or debate shite. Start your own fucking thread. How fucking thick are you? Fuck. Me.

If you want to debate shite start your own fucking thread. This is for how things can and have changed.

Peace x

[Snail]

Not sure people are quite getting the idea of this thread. If it's to debate stuff then honestly, feel absolutely free to start your own thread

x


You can. Do it. This is to look at the positives. I'm not affecetd by any of this shite these inbred Tory c*nts have done to our country. Nothing at all. No kids. Live in a great part of Liverpool and everything is grand.

But it fucking isn't. These c*nts are ruining our country. They are wrecking our schools and sense of justice and a million other fucking things we'll be counting the cost of for years to come.

This thread is not to debate Labour or debate shite. Start your own fucking thread. How fucking thick are you? Fuck. Me.

If you want to debate shite start your own fucking thread. This is for how things can and have changed.

Peace x

Grow up, Andy.

[John C]

feel absolutely free to start your own thread
You can. Do it.

Realistically they can't Andy mate. We're monitoring the news board with a genuine 'light touch' despite the criticism and comments about us over the last couple of weeks. It's not because we want to censor opinion or thwart debate, it's mainly that even before the current complexities of the political world some Mods got fed up with the News section entirely. Posters are using this football forum as their main and seemly only outlet to discuss both national and global politics, some taking the opportunity every other day (sometimes every other hour) to complain on RAWK about the international finance regulatory system. The premise isn't wrong, but I mean, aren't there other forums or places to continually espouse those issues?

Although I was a staunch supporter of the Hatton era in my city at the time (later to become a victim of some property vandalism when I didn't agree), I've served a political apprenticeship on this site. It's astonishing what the good folks on RAWK can educate us on. But before recently, against the back-drop of the worst, most corrupt and VILE UK government ever, the diatribe against an impossible and suddenly potential Labour 8 year governmental era was bewildering imo.

That's my own opinion. other Mods have theirs, we do differ. But there's a risk that I'd really dislike, and it's the news board being removed completely because it strays enormously from the fundemantals of why RAWK was created.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Realistically they can't Andy mate. We're monitoring the news board with a genuine 'light touch' despite the criticism and comments about us over the last couple of weeks. It's not because we want to censor opinion or thwart debate, it's mainly that even before the current complexities of the political world some Mods got fed up with the News section entirely. Posters are using this football forum as their main and seemly only outlet to discuss both national and global politics, some taking the opportunity every other day (sometimes every other hour) to complain on RAWK about the international finance regulatory system. The premise isn't wrong, but I mean, aren't there other forums or places to continually espouse those issues?

Although I was a staunch supporter of the Hatton era in my city at the time (later to become a victim of some property vandalism when I didn't agree), I've served a political apprenticeship on this site. It's astonishing what the good folks on RAWK can educate us on. But before recently, against the back-drop of the worst, most corrupt and VILE UK government ever, the diatribe against an impossible and suddenly potential Labour 8 year governmental era was bewildering imo.

That's my own opinion. other Mods have theirs, we do differ. But there's a risk that I'd really dislike, and it's the news board being removed completely because it strays enormously from the fundemantals of why RAWK was created.

Fair enough mate. I started this thread because I felt it would be nice to be able to talk about the positives and the what-could-bes.

Couldn't blame you for closing it. Think the mods do a shitty job pretty well despite all the dickheads you have to cope with.

I'd have thought that a positive Labour thread would be a welcome thing on a pretty much socialist site. I think I might be a twat for even thinking that could be the case.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Grow up, Andy.

I think you're right. Even hoping Labour could do a good job and be supported. What a fucking dickhead I am.

[Wabaloolah]

At the start it was about investment which produced returns being backed but that promise has dwindled away and pretty much closing that non dom tax loophole raising £3bn is doing ALL the heavy lifting. I find it hilarious that Labour MP’s still spout that one on TV.

I am hoping that it’s purely for election messaging reasons that they are being cautious and/or they have some stuff lined up in their pre election manifesto.

One things for sure, they dont get a pass or a period of grace once they come into office. I am expecting improvement in public services from the moment they get into office or at least positive steps in that direction. This is not our football side, they dont deserve blind loyalty.

you will be disappointed then, it's going to take years, probably a minimum of two full terms to make any real changes and repair the damage already done by the Tories, they'll cause more damage by the time they are booted from office.

Hopefully the electorate have some patience or we'll see the c*nts back in in before the end of the decade

[Runehammer]

you will be disappointed then, it's going to take years, probably a minimum of two full terms to make any real changes and repair the damage already done by the Tories, they'll cause more damage by the time they are booted from office.

Hopefully the electorate have some patience or we'll see the c*nts back in in before the end of the decade

I agree, Tories are going to make a lot of stuff irreparable and I reckon it will take more than 2 terms to see real progress.  It's high time these politicians were really held to account for their treasonous actions but I can't see it happening.
 

[hide5seek]

I'd like to see Labour look  at  the non doms that own our press.
How can people  who pay little or no  tax have such sway over the British electorate?
Labour need to ban  anyone not living here for at least 9 months (and  fully contributing tax  rise) from owning any press (TV/radio/newspaper)

[TSC]

https://guardian.pressreader.com/article/281870123143385

Labour considering writing off student loan debt to help the NHS staff recruitment & retention

[Andy @ Allerton!]

https://guardian.pressreader.com/article/281870123143385

Labour considering writing off student loan debt to help the NHS staff recruitment & retention

It seems a sensible idea. For those that aren't on top wages anyway, the extra burden of them having a huge loan just so they can help the public seems pretty barbaric.

The Tories removed the bursary in 2015 - an astonishing and disgusting action from a government, leaving many nurses with £60,000+ bills while on pretty much minimum wage. Unreal how they got away with it, with so little fuss.

More details on that here: https://nursingnotes.co.uk/news/politics/conservatives-pledge-nhs-bursary-if-elected/


In 2020, it was reintroduced: https://www.nurses.co.uk/blog/how-the-new-nursing-bursary-works/

But it's about £12,000 less than it used to be - hence the increased debt. Plus those that had to struggle for 5 years without anything at all.

[Red-Soldier]

At the start it was about investment which produced returns being backed but that promise has dwindled away and pretty much closing that non dom tax loophole raising £3bn is doing ALL the heavy lifting. I find it hilarious that Labour MP’s still spout that one on TV.

I am hoping that it’s purely for election messaging reasons that they are being cautious and/or they have some stuff lined up in their pre election manifesto.

One things for sure, they dont get a pass or a period of grace once they come into office. I am expecting improvement in public services from the moment they get into office or at least positive steps in that direction. This is not our football side, they dont deserve blind loyalty.

Maybe they will announce something, between now and the next GE.  I think the Tories are stealing/wasting so much public cash, that by stopping that, it will increase the spending power too.

Obviously, most of us didn't think we'd see another Labour government so soon, so we should be grateful in that.  However, they will need to hit the ground running, as there are so many people that are destitute now.

13 years of Tory rule has really f*cked everything and people will want to feel their lives have improved.

[Nobby Reserve]

He asked

"So you regulate to prevent areas from becoming over developed and populated, where do you build the homes then?"

And I replied "In areas less overcrowded?"

[Nobby Reserve]

some taking the opportunity every other day (sometimes every other hour) to complain on RAWK about the international finance regulatory system.

[killer-heels]

https://guardian.pressreader.com/article/281870123143385

Labour considering writing off student loan debt to help the NHS staff recruitment & retention

Good stuff.

[west_london_red]

In areas less overcrowded?

 

Your post describes exactly was what I was saying about it being a wild west free for all.

How does it benefit either existing or new residents in the area to cram so many people in so tight?

The Tory mentality is to say "well, it's the free market in action, we shouldn't do anything" but I say "fuck that"

I also said I'd look to implement a huge programme of building social housing (confiscate sites that are 'land banked' by housebuilders)

What’s happens when they become crowded?

And if you agree that it doesn’t serve communities to keep cramming more people into them and you accept more housing (especially houses rather then flats) is required then the only solution I can think of is you build new communities, and to do that you unfortunately have to look at currently undeveloped areas which is going to either be the green belt or by exception very, very large brown field sites if they exist which is what I believe Labour are looking at.

[-HH-]

While Labour collude in the same economic lies as the Tories then it's pretty hard to feel much optimism. And when they're also being equally anti democratic so they won't implement the one thing that would make me cast a blind eye to some of the other shit then what are they for except making people with a brain feel the whole political process is doomed to failure and we might as well just get off the rollercoaster?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

While Labour collude in the same economic lies as the Tories then it's pretty hard to feel much optimism. And when they're also being equally anti democratic so they won't implement the one thing that would make me cast a blind eye to some of the other shit then what are they for except making people with a brain feel the whole political process is doomed to failure and we might as well just get off the rollercoaster?

Helping out the poorest in society? Helping out the weak, sick, infirm, old, disabled, mentally ill, homeless, threatened, fearful and immigrants that have a legitimate right to be here.

Also helping the NHS and schools and hospitals and ambulance service and police force and nurses and doctors and teachers and public sector works and families and people in general and all the services that have been fucked by the Tories?

Do I win £5?

They have a mammoth task. You can bet that if they get more than one term, they'll have a crack at fixing stuff, just like the last Labour government demonstrably did. If you 'didn't notice' then you were either too young or were from a household where money and services weren't a concern.

Made a massive difference to my family and where I lived and the NHS and all the rest.

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

I agree, Andy - they will make a difference. But unless they can work on changing the framework of the narrative that all discussion takes place within, which has been set by the right-wing press at the behest of the super-rich, then it's only a matter of time before the Tories get back in. And as we've seen, it doesn't take the Tory party very long to dismantle and reverse any good a sensible leftist government can do.

As much as undoing the terrible damage of this period of Tory rule, challenging this ideological framework is equally important. And that requires imagination, character and intelligence from Labour. We'll see how they step up to it. Sooner or later they will have to take on the ideas that the Tory party promotes around the nature of wealth and ownership.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I agree, Andy - they will make a difference. But unless they can work on changing the framework of the narrative that all discussion takes place within, which has been set by the right-wing press at the behest of the super-rich, then it's only a matter of time before the Tories get back in. And as we've seen, it doesn't take the Tory party very long to dismantle and reverse any good a sensible leftist government can do.

As much as undoing the terrible damage of this period of Tory rule, challenging this ideological framework is equally important. And that requires imagination, character and intelligence from Labour. We'll see how they step up to it. Sooner or later they will have to take on the ideas that the Tory party promotes around the nature of wealth and ownership.

Can't disagree with any of that mate. Let's hope that this can come to pass. Won't be during the first term I think though. Going to take a lot of effort to even start pulling the UK from its knees.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Helping out the poorest in society? Helping out the weak, sick, infirm, old, disabled, mentally ill, homeless, threatened, fearful and immigrants that have a legitimate right to be here.

Also helping the NHS and schools and hospitals and ambulance service and police force and nurses and doctors and teachers and public sector works and families and people in general and all the services that have been fucked by the Tories?

Do I win £5?

They have a mammoth task. You can bet that if they get more than one term, they'll have a crack at fixing stuff, just like the last Labour government demonstrably did. If you 'didn't notice' then you were either too young or were from a household where money and services weren't a concern.

Made a massive difference to my family and where I lived and the NHS and all the rest.

]

What if they dont have a 'legitimate' right to be here?