Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1450572 times)

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23400 on: June 27, 2019, 02:10:12 pm »
Looking to a process as a compromise over outcome is going to be difficult to achieve. 'No deal' isn't an outcome, it's the failure to agree something with an EU and the mess caused until something is agreed. The outcome for it is still hazy as fuck from headbangers - they think it's going to be some sort of FTA but without having to tidy up the mess caused by us deciding to leave. Is it even something Parliament (or at least this one) can put to a referendum? We've done 'hazy as fuck, make shit up as we go along' in 2016 and here we are none the wiser of what Brexit means, other than Brexit.

Polling has it that you can mildly piss off 2/3 of the country with a 'soft' Brexit (original definition - that means *in* the single market and customs union) but they'd accept it as a second preference. A third would be more than mildly pissed off with that outcome. Experiments with Citizens Assemblies have given similar results as the compromise position most would grudgingly accept. That said, it's not like that majority is fixed as it was once the default Brexit position for most of the headbangers who saw it as the start of the process not Brexit 'mission accomplished'.

Have said a while that being up front about revoking and setting out plans for what the time/money/effort could be spent on instead of Brexit would be my preference. Know some people argue that it's going to shake faith in democracy etc. but that was already baked in the moment people voted for everything to change but for it all to stay the same.
I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but the reality of the situation is that the 'compromise' is not what the voters/nation will stand, but what kind of compromise will be accepted by MPs? If it comes down to revoke vs no-Deal, maybe enough MPs will decide that (from a combination of being afraid of the normal parliamentary process not delivering the result they desire; and being afraid of the electorate), it is better to vote for a second referendum.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23401 on: June 27, 2019, 02:15:43 pm »
Focusing on the dangers of no deal while pushing for revoke as a defence against it could definitely shift the centre point away from where the brexstards have been allowed to drag it, we started out with the bombastic claims that we'd basically have all the benefits of being in the eu with none of the downsides and have ended up with them trying to claim it was always intended to be the insanity of no deal.
Yeah, I think arguments like yours would have to be made.
It's more about showing some attitude rather than being reasonable.leave MPs and leave voters are not being reasonable so why should remain voters.
Nobody voted for a No Deal, we need to take back control before they do massive damage to the country,revoke
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23402 on: June 27, 2019, 02:29:26 pm »
I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but the reality of the situation is that the 'compromise' is not what the voters/nation will stand, but what kind of compromise will be accepted by MPs? If it comes down to revoke vs no-Deal, maybe enough MPs will decide that (from a combination of being afraid of the normal parliamentary process not delivering the result they desire; and being afraid of the electorate), it is better to vote for a second referendum.

Can see a second referendum looking more and more attractive as a way to punt the decision but it has some big problems which I'm not sure MPs will be able to compromise over. Such as the question/s asked and the mandate/legitimacy. The idea of compromise on Brexit relies upon the idea that there was a single Brexit position those proposing it had taken. Yet that was something the Brexit campaign purposefully avoided doing, whether in Parliament or out of it, so how do you establish a compromise with something which isn't there?
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23403 on: June 27, 2019, 02:48:34 pm »
Can see a second referendum looking more and more attractive as a way to punt the decision but it has some big problems which I'm not sure MPs will be able to compromise over. Such as the question/s asked and the mandate/legitimacy. The idea of compromise on Brexit relies upon the idea that there was a single Brexit position those proposing it had taken. Yet that was something the Brexit campaign purposefully avoided doing, whether in Parliament or out of it, so how do you establish a compromise with something which isn't there?
Well, since May's WA is unlikely to feature as an option (especially if the referendum question is binary), I can only assume something will be cobbled together which is, basically, no-Deal (as the alternative to Revoke). Yes, I can understand the problem of framing/defining an option as 'no-Deal' - it will actually need to specify something. Maybe they will go with complete fantasy stuff, such as 'WTO and GATT 24 trading', coupled with 'keep our 39Bn', and 'leave the EU on 31st Oct'. Are the No-Dalers that stupid? History is quite suggestive that they are.

Isn't it bizarre that after three years we still have no idea of what is going to happen, with no effective leadership (on either side), and after all that has been learned about what Brexit (even a 'soft' one) will mean for the UK economy and British public.
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Offline No666

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23404 on: June 27, 2019, 02:54:07 pm »
Sounds as if May is going to enjoy paying Johnson back in the commons.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/theresa-may-warning-shot-suggests-she-will-make-a-fascinating-backbencher-npxf9d7jx

Spoiler
The G20 summit in Osaka, which starts tomorrow, is Theresa May’s farewell to the world stage, yet her tone in the run-up to it has not quite been that of a valedictory tour.

The prime minister has issued stern, earnest words about the importance of multilateral institutions, of decarbonisation and of terrorists using the internet to do harm. This is not Mrs May cut loose; this is Mrs May continuing to focus on doing her duty as prime minister.

However, speaking to reporters on the plane to Japan Mrs May allowed glimpses of her frustration at the Brexit stalemate to appear.

Most striking was her answer when asked to commit to backing whatever form of Brexit Jeremy C*nt or Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson pursue, including a possible no-deal Brexit. Her response was scornful: “What you’re saying to me is, ‘Will you now say that whatever happens in the future you’re going to agree with it’.”

The question had been an opportunity for her to pledge her unstinting, quiet loyalty to her successor. It was an opportunity she deliberately did not take. And it opens the tantalising possibility of Mrs May as an influential backbencher as Mr Hunt or Mr Johnson try to find the solution to the Brexit riddle that eluded her.
Mrs May, who has served continuously on the Tory frontbench for more than 20 years, has made clear that she intends to stay in the Commons as a diligent constituency MP.

In recent times this is unusual. David Cameron made noises about staying around, briefly appeared on the backbenches for a Trident debate, looked bored, left early and quit the Commons soon after. Gordon Brown stayed for a full five-year parliament after losing the 2010 election but was rarely present. Tony Blair quit immediately.

A dose of reality injected into Brexit debates by Mrs May would be an intriguing prospect, not least given her continuing opposition to a no-deal departure.

Her comments on the flight to Japan suggest that she still believes that her deal, or something very similar, is the best option. She said that her successor would have to “find the majority” in parliament and that she expected him to put proposals before parliament rather than running down the clock, to force through a no-deal on October 31.

Asked if she believed that her successor had a good chance of renegotiating the backstop, she replied that the “EU has made its position clear” on its unwillingness to renegotiate and repeatedly referred to the importance not simply of leaving the EU but of doing so in a way that is “good for the British people” — in other words, with a deal.

If Mrs May holds to this view in public while the likely Johnson government diverges from it rapidly, she could become one of the most fascinating backbench MPs the House of Commons has seen for some time.
[close]

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23405 on: June 27, 2019, 03:00:15 pm »
Well, since May's WA is unlikely to feature as an option (especially if the referendum question is binary), I can only assume something will be cobbled together which is, basically, no-Deal (as the alternative to Revoke). Yes, I can understand the problem of framing/defining an option as 'no-Deal' - it will actually need to specify something. Maybe they will go with complete fantasy stuff, such as 'WTO and GATT 24 trading', coupled with 'keep our 39Bn', and 'leave the EU on 31st Oct'. Are the No-Dalers that stupid? History is quite suggestive that they are.

Isn't it bizarre that after three years we still have no idea of what is going to happen, with no effective leadership (on either side), and after all that has been learned about what Brexit (even a 'soft' one) will mean for the UK economy and British public.

Would suggest that they're not *quite* that stupid. One of the reasons why they'll seek to undermine the legitimacy of a referendum rather than engage with it? Another is that they're not sure they'll win even if they threw everything at it - 2016 relied on very infrequent voters turning out in support of it.

Yeah, it's bloody weird watching the debate regress back to 2016 levels now reality has, temporarily, been taken out of the equation until October. "Do not waste this time." Heyho.
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23406 on: June 27, 2019, 05:15:05 pm »
Vauxhall Astra: Ellesmere Port manufacture 'depends on Brexit'

Quote
The next generation of the Vauxhall Astra will be built at its Ellesmere Port car plant if a satisfactory Brexit deal is reached, its owners have said.

The PSA Group said it would also invest in the Rüsselsheim plant in Germany to manufacture Opel Astras from 2021.

It said the decision would be conditional on the New Vehicle Agreement, negotiated with Unite.

In a statement, it said the decision demonstrated "the continuous effort and commitment" of the group.

Currently the Vauxhall and Opel Astra are built in Ellesmere Port in Cheshire, which was opened in 1962, and in Gliwice, Poland.

The PSA Group said the decision on the allocation to the Ellesmere Port plant "will be conditional on the final terms of the UK's exit from the European Union and the acceptance of the New Vehicle Agreement, which has been negotiated with the Unite trade union".

Vauxhall has previously said it faces falling sales and relatively high manufacturing costs at the Ellesmere Port plant, which employs about 1,100 people.

Mick Chalmers, regional officer for the Unite union, said: "PSA have made it very clear that no deal means no deal for Ellesmere Port.

"We are calling on the government to take no deal off the table so that the future of Ellesmere Port - and the thousands of jobs in the supply chain - can be secured."

Quote
Analysis

By BBC business correspondent Theo Leggett

The decision to build the new model at Ellesmere Port would help to safeguard the future of the Chester plant, which has been in doubt since PSA Group took control of Vauxhall in 2017.

The factory currently makes an older version of the Astra, but sales have been declining, and the number of people working there has almost halved since the takeover.

Under the plan, Ellesmere Port would be one of two factories which will begin building the new Astra in 2021.

However, PSA Group has made it clear the decision to build the car in the UK will depend on the terms of the UK's future trading relationship with the EU.

Sources say the minimum the company is looking for is a commitment to frictionless trade after Brexit, and no-deal is not an option.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-48790657

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23407 on: June 27, 2019, 07:52:40 pm »
Enjoyed watching this short video.Anne Widdecombe getting put in her place.
https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1144303637889462272
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline BobOnATank

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23408 on: June 27, 2019, 08:41:59 pm »
Guy Verhofstadt distilling a few facts...

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson’s talk of ‘global Britain’ is about to look even more ridiculous

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/27/boris-johnson-global-britain-eu-trade-deal

Quote
Europe will have offered still more proof that Brexit is not only unnecessary but also detrimental to Britain’s economic interests. The “buccaneering” Brexiteers might then finally have to explain what it is they’re still complaining about.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23409 on: June 27, 2019, 11:27:01 pm »
So the palm oil banning chief exec of Iceland voted Brexit. I guess he thought he could get cheaper frozen pasties or other shite from the far east.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23410 on: June 28, 2019, 06:57:37 am »
Oh dear...

The civil sergeant in charge of preparing for no deal has quit

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/27/brexit-civil-servant-in-charge-of-no-deal-planning-quits
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline DJBrenton

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23411 on: June 28, 2019, 10:04:00 am »
Oh dear...

The civil sergeant in charge of preparing for no deal has quit

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/27/brexit-civil-servant-in-charge-of-no-deal-planning-quits

At the risk of being ageist, is a 33 year old the best we could get? What a blagger http://newsvideo.su/video/3768255
I have no children on RAWK. Anyone claiming to be my daughter is a blagger trying to bask in reflected glory.

Offline stewil007

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23412 on: June 28, 2019, 10:07:57 am »
At the risk of being ageist, is a 33 year old the best we could get? What a blagger http://newsvideo.su/video/3768255


way of the world now, where i am working,  30 year olds running programmes with little to no true world experience but have gone through the grad scheme.  Older senior project managers overlooked for these roles despite the wealth of experience.

Offline classycarra

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23413 on: June 28, 2019, 10:08:37 am »
At the risk of being ageist, is a 33 year old the best we could get? What a blagger http://newsvideo.su/video/3768255


Know nothing about him, but knowing how many times this position has been filled and the vast (repeat) job adverts for that Exiting the EU department I think it's fair to say the only people taking it are either doing it as a last job before retirement, or taking it as a swift stepping stone like this

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23414 on: June 28, 2019, 11:14:57 am »
Been talking to some Brexit voters who had some interesting views.

I summarised all the problems that Brexit would bring to the country, the people, the poor, the NHS, Public Services and well, everything..

Their response?

They literally said "We don't care. We voted for No Deal and we want No Deal"

I asked them about the damage and they just responded with "We know that it'll massively damage the country and everyone in it and all services and the NHS but we don't care. It'll all be worth it to take back control"

They even accepted that the UK would be wrecked for the forseeable future. Their response to more questions was the "The UK has lots of very, very bright people and everyone should believe in the UK."

They said that they were regaining control (They struggled a bit when I asked them what control and more and more the responses included words like 'I'm not racist but..' and 'Hmm. That might sound a bit racist..'

I actually congratuled them for their admission that their decision would wreck the country and their childrens futures because most are in full on denial.

When I asked them about the control that they thought they were taking back and came back with responses with actually we always had full control over that, they glossed over it. They got decidely angry a couple of times - when I mentioned that the Referendum had no basis in law and that most of the things being mentioned included some sort of magic.

But. Interesting discussion.

The country really has had it.
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Offline Iska

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23415 on: June 28, 2019, 11:30:45 am »
At the risk of being ageist, is a 33 year old the best we could get? What a blagger http://newsvideo.su/video/3768255
He doesn’t even look 33.  He looks like the sort of guy who might get sent out to Barnsley on loan for a year, before being sold for a nominal fee to join Stevie’s project at Rangers.

Offline Skeeve

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23416 on: June 28, 2019, 11:55:39 am »
Know nothing about him, but knowing how many times this position has been filled and the vast (repeat) job adverts for that Exiting the EU department I think it's fair to say the only people taking it are either doing it as a last job before retirement, or taking it as a swift stepping stone like this

Would you want to be the one holding onto the parcel if you can hear it ticking though?

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23417 on: June 28, 2019, 12:11:29 pm »
Johnson answering questions this morning.
NI Border "We have to look at technology which both sides agree is practical"
I must have misunderstood the EU statement only the other day saying they have looked at every border on Earth and technology can't do away with the need for physical checks.
Will there ever come a time when politicians can be held accountable for lies, I hope so,nothing will change until it happens.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline classycarra

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23418 on: June 28, 2019, 12:24:35 pm »
Would you want to be the one holding onto the parcel if you can hear it ticking though?

Hell no. Ignored every job ad. Not that I have anything useful to contribute, or am a decent employee, but even if I was I’d have no interest wasting my efforts in that department only to be screamed at by old white weirdos and having to listen to crank ministers wearing their ignorance with pride

Offline Riquende

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23419 on: June 28, 2019, 01:30:52 pm »
Will there ever come a time when politicians can be held accountable for lies

In theory, politicians are held to account for their lies at the ballot box (though the concept of 'safe seats' subverts this somewhat). One of the fundamental problems of referendums is that results are implemented and they don't get periodically rerun, so any lies that contribute to an outcome are just shrugged off (I guess the same could be said for something like the Tory leadership contest).
"The nicest thing about quotes is that they give us a nodding acquaintance with the originator which is often socially impressive."

~ Kenneth Williams, with whom I'm noddingly acquainted. Socially impressed?

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23420 on: June 28, 2019, 01:57:13 pm »
In theory, politicians are held to account for their lies at the ballot box (though the concept of 'safe seats' subverts this somewhat). One of the fundamental problems of referendums is that results are implemented and they don't get periodically rerun, so any lies that contribute to an outcome are just shrugged off (I guess the same could be said for something like the Tory leadership contest).
Why does this logic only apply to politicians. if it didn't then retailers could convince you to buy a product with a pack of lies and the argument would be well just hold them to account by never buying anything off them again.
Ive seen our future PM lying through his teeth regularly but the attitude is well he's a politician and all politicians lie. they only lie because they can get away with it.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23421 on: June 28, 2019, 02:40:21 pm »
Why does this logic only apply to politicians. if it didn't then retailers could convince you to buy a product with a pack of lies and the argument would be well just hold them to account by never buying anything off them again.
Ive seen our future PM lying through his teeth regularly but the attitude is well he's a politician and all politicians lie. they only lie because they can get away with it.

Nail hammered home and it has been like that for decades if not always. Nowadays though lying has become somewhat of an artform and falsefacts are accepted as the norm.
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline Robinred

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23422 on: June 28, 2019, 03:07:40 pm »
Nail hammered home and it has been like that for decades if not always. Nowadays though lying has become somewhat of an artform and falsefacts are accepted as the norm.

Fintan O’Toole wrote a terrific hatchet job on Boris in last week’s Irish Times. (It’s behind a paywall so I can’t flag it).

He posited an interesting theory: that the British public are sick of what he refers to as “ordinary political lying” (evasion, omission and half-truths) and that full on Johnsonian lying - bare-faced, full-throated and unabashed - is by comparison refreshing, because of its up-front mendacity.🤥
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Offline Iska

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23423 on: June 28, 2019, 03:14:52 pm »
Fintan O’Toole wrote a terrific hatchet job on Boris in last week’s Irish Times. (It’s behind a paywall so I can’t flag it).

He posited an interesting theory: that the British public are sick of what he refers to as “ordinary political lying” (evasion, omission and half-truths) and that full on Johnsonian lying - bare-faced, full-throated and unabashed - is by comparison refreshing, because of its up-front mendacity.🤥
That’s an interesting way of putting it, there’s something of being ‘in on the joke’ about it.  To put it in another context, is it the same difference between loving having a shithouse in your team when it’s Diego Costa, but being basically ashamed when it’s Ashley Young?

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23424 on: June 28, 2019, 03:17:43 pm »
Brexit 'could leave UK short of energy'

The UK would be vulnerable to gas supply shortages and price hikes after Brexit, an industry leader has warned.

Marco Alvera, head of European industry body GasNaturally, told the BBC that EU nations could restrict gas exports to the UK during winter cold snaps in order to prioritise their own citizens.

"We've spoken to several ministers and civil servants over the last two years. Energy has not been discussed enough."

The UK imports almost half the gas it consumes via pipelines from Europe.

Some 39% of the UK's electricity supply was generated from natural gas last year, according to official government statistics.

"I would make [energy security] a high priority point in the discussions, and I haven't seen it be like that," said Mr Alvera, who is also the chief executive of Italian gas pipeline company Snam, which owns a minority stake in one of the two main UK-Europe gas pipelines.

He added that EU nations would also theoretically have the ability to impose tariffs on their gas and electricity exports to the UK post-Brexit.

The UK has become overly dependent on imported natural gas to meet its winter fuel needs, Mr Alvera warned.

He said this was because the UK's own North Sea gas supplies had wound down, while at the same time the country had shut down much of its gas storage infrastructural capacity.

"We see one of the consequences of global warming is more extreme temperatures in the summer and in the winter," he told the Business Daily programme on BBC World Service radio.

"In the week when we had the 'Beast from the East' very cold spell coming, the system was already under a lot of strain, and the UK was taking a lot of gas from Europe that was stored in Europe."

Where does the UK's gas come from?

    UK domestic production: 44%
    Liquefied natural gas (LNG) imports: 9%
    European pipelines: 47% (of which 36% comes from Russia and 21% from Norway)

Data as of 2017. Source: British Gas

The UK could remedy the situation relatively easily, he said, by converting old exhausted North Sea gas fields into gas storage facilities.

Mr Alvera also claimed that much of the UK's gas imports originated from Russia, having been piped across the rest of Europe.

The extent of UK reliance on Russian gas has been a source of controversy since the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury in March last year.

Less that 1% of UK gas consumption last year came directly from Russia as liquefied natural gas imports.

However the ultimate source is of the UK's piped gas imports is harder to determine, with one estimate putting it at 36% in 2017.

The warning echoes the findings of a 2017 House of Lords report, which said that the UK could be "more vulnerable to supply shortages in the event of extreme weather or unplanned generation outages".

The risk would arise upon the UK's exit from the EU's Internal Energy Market, which would potentially take place at the end of the transition period on 31 December 2020 under the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement negotiated with the EU.

In the case of a no-deal Brexit, the UK would be at risk immediately upon leaving the EU.

The bulk of the UK's natural gas imports come via Norway, which is part of the Internal Energy Market, although it is not an EU member.

The Lords report also concluded that it was possible, but "unlikely that tariffs will be applied to UK-EU trade in gas and electricity post-Brexit, even in the event of a no-deal scenario.

"However, the energy industry could be affected by tariffs on products used in the construction and maintenance of the energy system."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48788636

Offline Robinred

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23425 on: June 28, 2019, 04:04:34 pm »
That’s an interesting way of putting it, there’s something of being ‘in on the joke’ about it.  To put it in another context, is it the same difference between loving having a shithouse in your team when it’s Diego Costa, but being basically ashamed when it’s Ashley Young?

Well, when IDS, Donald Trump and the disgraced Conrad Black all go out of their way to endorse Johnson’s candidacy, a sane person would not unnaturally suspect shithouses know one of their own.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23426 on: June 28, 2019, 04:47:13 pm »
Nail hammered home and it has been like that for decades if not always. Nowadays though lying has become somewhat of an artform and falsefacts are accepted as the norm.
Yeah they've always lied, they've twisted stats to back up their lies, they've made arguments they can't possibly believe themselves but it's now got right out of hand and look where it's taken us, some of the arguments they are making are not down to opinion, Facts are not up for dispute. they are factual. yet Johnsons allowed to argue EU rules and regulations stop children under 8 from blowing up balloons. China has frictionless trading with the EU so we can after we leave the EU. politicians have made many claims like this and everyone of them is a blatant lie.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23427 on: June 28, 2019, 06:58:27 pm »
Why does this logic only apply to politicians. if it didn't then retailers could convince you to buy a product with a pack of lies and the argument would be well just hold them to account by never buying anything off them again.
Ive seen our future PM lying through his teeth regularly but the attitude is well he's a politician and all politicians lie. they only lie because they can get away with it.
No politicians will ever legislate to change this because they know it could be them lying in future, so they don't want to create laws they themselves might fall foul of.

Lawmakers will always protect themselves
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23428 on: June 28, 2019, 06:59:46 pm »
EU have agreed an historic trade deal with the main South American economies. It only took 20 years. I can’t wait for us to show them how it’s done and negotiate one in months.

Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23429 on: June 28, 2019, 07:08:26 pm »
EU have agreed an historic trade deal with the main South American economies. It only took 20 years. I can’t wait for us to show them how it’s done and negotiate one in months.
Hmm. Including Brazil? With that wanker in charge?
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Offline Iska

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23430 on: June 28, 2019, 07:21:26 pm »
Hmm. Including Brazil? With that wanker in charge?
It’s with Mercosur, which is like the EEC of South America, but I don’t know if that means the actual countries themselves have ceded power over the process to a central body like Brussels.

And I dunno how comprehensive it is but it sounds like a big thing.  Anyway it’s nice to see some serious players building up a rules-based order for once, rather than magic men talking deals deals deals.

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23431 on: June 28, 2019, 07:22:03 pm »
No politicians will ever legislate to change this because they know it could be them lying in future, so they don't want to create laws they themselves might fall foul of.

Lawmakers will always protect themselves
I agree, this is definitely the reason this has never come about.
 I think there will be a Chilcot type inquiry into Brexit in years to come assuming it goes ahead. it's pretty obvious that one of the main conclusions this inquiry will come to is our politicians knowingly lied to the public on many big points, these lies were backed up and repeated by many other MPs.
They will make recommendations for change.

It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23432 on: June 29, 2019, 12:01:54 am »
What a surprise!

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23433 on: June 29, 2019, 12:12:27 am »
Can't knock Nuttall's appearances, after all he did initially develop Question Time personally, and retains the rights to the format. It's surprising he found the energy given he was storyboarding Star Wars and producing Never Mind the Bollocks at the same time. In fact it's this busy creative period that may have delayed his third Wimbledon win.
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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23434 on: June 29, 2019, 12:25:34 am »
Can see a rationale for the UKIP MEP appearances. They polled between 10% and 25% for years, and the faces they wanted to push forward nationally weren't the Tory defector MPs but their 'star' MEPs. The 40 is over 350 episodes too, although does miss Kipper MPs in that tally. Does hugely distort perception of what our MEPs look like away from the headbangers but that's a reflection of how our political system has tended to treat the European Parliament isn't it?
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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23435 on: June 29, 2019, 12:39:53 am »
Can see a rationale for the UKIP MEP appearances. They polled between 10% and 25% for years, and the faces they wanted to push forward nationally weren't the Tory defector MPs but their 'star' MEPs. The 40 is over 350 episodes too, although does miss Kipper MPs in that tally. Does hugely distort perception of what our MEPs look like away from the headbangers but that's a reflection of how our political system has tended to treat the European Parliament isn't it?
But there are quite a few eloquent and interesting MEPs from the other parties. It's just amazing that someone like Seb Dance hasn't been on even once. Did Labour not care to put their man forward?

...

In other news David Gauke has survived a deselection attempt by 123 votes to 61. Suggestion is that the proposal was bought forward by an Aron Banks sponsored entryist.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23436 on: June 29, 2019, 01:23:31 am »
But there are quite a few eloquent and interesting MEPs from the other parties. It's just amazing that someone like Seb Dance hasn't been on even once. Did Labour not care to put their man forward?

Aye, there are. I deleted a reference to Seb Dance when trying to proof read that post. Have thought for a while an MEPs only (maybe an academic in there) episode or two wouldn't be a bad idea - "well done Nige, you've won the Europeans. Here's your annual appearance for this year." Although will the audience be engaged enough with the EU to ask questions about their work (or lack of it in some cases) as MEPs or would everyone end up thinking MPs would be 'better' answering the questions asked?
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23437 on: June 29, 2019, 01:55:24 am »
But there are quite a few eloquent and interesting MEPs from the other parties. It's just amazing that someone like Seb Dance hasn't been on even once. Did Labour not care to put their man forward?

...

In other news David Gauke has survived a deselection attempt by 123 votes to 61. Suggestion is that the proposal was bought forward by an Aron Banks sponsored entryist.
The motion accused Gauke of “wilful obstruction” towards implementing the 2016 EU referendum result by opposing a no-deal exit. :shocked


David Gauke
‏Verified account @DavidGauke
4h4 hours ago

Tonight, I argued that:

We should not allow the Party to be taken over by entryists.

We should be a broad church.

No deal would be immensely damaging to the UK.

I defeated a motion of no confidence 123 to 61. I am grateful to the members of my association for their support.



It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23438 on: June 29, 2019, 06:22:53 am »
What a surprise!



That's just MEPs. Labour, Conservative and Lib Dems tend to put Parliamentary MPs up for QT. How many UKIP MPs have they had on?
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Rocky Horror Brexit Shitshow Hallowe'en Special!
« Reply #23439 on: June 29, 2019, 11:48:17 am »
Bit of a deep dive, still an interesting read from Prof.Armstrong on how Britain seems determined to dump problems of its own making on those around it - particularly when it comes to trying to break out of the Article 50 process and avoid taking on the concerns of those who got absolutely no say in the referendum.

Quote
As the UK leaves the EU it is removing itself from these structures of cooperation and the discipline of EU membership. That is its right and its choice. But that leaves open how the externalities that Brexit generates ought to be managed. Any approach must facilitate the representation of affected interests, particularly when those interests lacked a voice or a vote in a referendum whose ramifications need to be managed.

Article 50 is the obvious means of managing Brexternalities. A no-deal Brexit puts no alternative mechanism in its place. It would result in the UK failing to take responsibility for a decision that was Made in Britain but whose repercussions spread beyond its borders.

In managing environmental externalities, the principle that “the polluter pays” is now well established. A new prime minister who would allow the UK to leave the EU in a disorderly fashion would be acting as a political and economic polluter. Brexit may have blown the lid off British politics, but that’s no reason to accept that the UK can simply dump toxic problems in its European backyard.

Prospect
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."