Topic: The Adam and Lucas partnership.

[rossipersempre]

The frustrating thing for me though is that we do have CM options with our current 5 central midfielders, yet no matter who we've played against this season, no matter how may opposition midfielders we've been against, bar 1 match, Kenny has played the 2 central midfielders in the same system.  I kinda thought our new players whould give us flexibility.  Alas it seems not.

The only 'flexibility' they would have offered - and by flexibility I really mean 'alternative option' - would have been if we'd retained the services of at least one of our two gifted midfielders now plying their trade elsewhere.

[davidg]

I'm surprised you're surprised. His sluggishness (an apt description if ever there was one) was there for all to see when he was playing in tangerine orange last season. As were the other glaring deficiencies to his game. Of course it didn't matter because he was afforded such luxury at a club like Blackpool where he was the main man, the jumbo-sized haggis if you like, in what was effectively an attacking pub team.

Quite why people expected him to metamorphose into the Scottish Alonso, with sublime vision, light-speed intelligence and effortless technique just by breathing the same air as Dalglish, is a mystery to me.

Not sure anyone with a pulse expected an Alonso, and the comparisons don't do anyone any favours really.

I expected better than what I have seen so far though without doubt. But then again, how much was he, 7 million? Get what you pay for I suppose.

[Hazell]

Maybe but at what point do you acknowledge that this solution - to play TWO defensive midfielders just to accommodate such a limiting player as Adam - is inherently wrong and not sustainable if we're truly serious about clawing our way back into the CL?

Me personally? I wouldn't have bought him in the first place or sold Meireles or sent Aquilani on loan. With the current players we have, Gerrard has been injured most of this season. I'd like to see Spearing given a chance ahead of Adam if we are going to play 2 in the middle but then I wouldn't do that either. Ideally, it'd be Spearing and Lucas, with Gerrard ahead of them and if not Gerrard, then it has to be Adam as there's no one else.

Besides, Kenny's obviously keen on Adam, so what's the best way to incorporate him into the team without the problems  we currently face?

Edit, forgot about Maxi. He should be playing more games.

[rossipersempre]

So what did Dalglish so value in him?  I mean, he was hardly purchased as an afterthought was he?  Dalglish obviously rates him very highly.

Again, I honestly don't know.

Not sure anyone with a pulse expected an Alonso, and the comparisons don't do anyone any favours really.

I expected better than what I have seen so far though without doubt. But then again, how much was he, 7 million? Get what you pay for I suppose.

I dunno, an awful lot of advocates here at the time of his signing. A few choice superlatives thrown about too.

But yes, I agree about the cost...

Adam cost £7.5m from Blackpool. The only financially-related discussion to be had in this context of his performance is that old adage about only getting what you paid for.

[rossipersempre]

Besides, Kenny's obviously keen on Adam, so what's the best way to incorporate him into the team without the problems  we currently face?

Right now, the best position to get the best out of Adam and for the benefit of the team is second or third from the right on the bench.

[new-red]

I don't think so. Aurelio is a very good passer, and far better than you'd expect from a FB, but Lucas is technically better. Alonso is the best passer I've ever seen, and is the European style to perfection, while it astounds me just how Gerrard hits the ball to get it to where he wants it. But Lucas is the Brazilian style to a very high level.

I would say that Xavi and Alonso are at the same level in regards to passing. Xavi rarely tries the 30-50 yard passes but when he attempts them they are right on the attackers toe. Gerrard also has phenomenal technique as well.

What personally makes me angry is that Aquilani was a great passer as well. His technique may not be the best but he always moved the ball quickly and at pace and was a PERFECT pass-and-move player. He would have pulled up trees in our first XI if he was still here. He was made for the pace of the prem and I still cant believe we wanted him to go.

[Mr Dilkington]

In terms of improving the team, not much no. Except Murphy wasn't driven into Melwood by the manager personally and lauded as a key signing. We paid almost nothing to Crewe and upgraded him in a heartbeat when Alonso became available. Still, Adam will be doing fantastically well if he manages to replicate Murphy's surprisingly long (admittedly lower tier) Premier League career.

I only hope the rumours of us sniffing round Lucas Moura are true. You know, a real midfield playmaker. Throw in a tenacious M'Vila to pick up Masch's mantle, and allow Lucas (Leiva) the freedom to become box-to-box, and we'll go places.

Nice to have you back Rossi.

Just to pick up on the bolded part... I'd actually dispute that Lucas Moura was anywhere close to being a midfield playmaker. In simple terms he's basically a very quick but extremely raw right winger who hasn't really played any games in the traditional 'playmakers' position. I think that twenty minutes through the middle against Scotland served to fool a lot of people about what kind of player he was.

Anyhow, there are still loads of those natural playmakers about that Comolli could be looking at. Marvelous Marvin Martin, Jovetic (He did just sign a new 5 year deal at Fiorentina, but they are still a selling club) Ganso (Although i aint convinced about him and i think he'll end up playing for Milan).

I say make Suarez the playmaker and give Carroll an actual chance of showing what he did at the Toon up against the last defender.

[Pistolero]

The ballbags have taken over the aysylum.

[Camarero25]

What personally makes me angry is that Aquilani was a great passer as well. His technique may not be the best but he always moved the ball quickly and at pace and was a PERFECT pass-and-move player. He would have pulled up trees in our first XI if he was still here. He was made for the pace of the prem and I still cant believe we wanted him to go.

This grates on me so badly. Why were we seemingly so desperate to get rid of Meireles and Aquilani, only to replace them with Adam? By no means am I saying Adam is an awful player, or that Meireles or Aquilani are absolute world beaters, but if you gave me a choice between them I know who I'd pick every time. I'd be happy with Adam as a squad player, but as a guaranteed first choice starter? Not for me.

[Sangria]

Maybe but at what point do you acknowledge that this solution - to play TWO defensive midfielders just to accommodate such a limiting player as Adam - is inherently wrong and not sustainable if we're truly serious about clawing our way back into the CL?

I'd play Lucas and Spearing anyway, regardless of Adam, but then that's the kind of midfield I like. Effective at contesting the midfield area, and moves the ball quickly. Anything else is gravy.

[Mutton Geoff]

My main conclusion from the last few pages are that Adam has been elevated to the level of Kuyt in Rossi's one eyed agenda of disliking players in our team judged only on his minimum knowledge of what they produce or can produce for the team. He is like a dog with a bone with the incessant put downs very reminicent of the Kuyt threads and littered in the same way with a multude of posts all with the same Adam is a waste of money message!

Adam is a provider of chances and a taker of them when given the room to do this and the other players finding the space for him to pass the ball into, however against a well drilled team like Swansea, he and Lucas were starved of players being free to pass to and therefore they appeared to be static whilst trying to retain possession of the ball and being closed down and over whelmed by the numbers in the Swansea midfield.

Also I could throw into the discussion the fact that it is a rareity if any midfield partnership can be formed successfully in less than ten games together in the premiership or any other major league unless they have played together regulary throughout their rise to the first team as in the Barca plan,  and perhaps we need to remember that the 'Rossi God' that is Alonso was not scorching the pitch with his brilliance for us from the very start of his career,or totally throughout his career for us, in fact as much as I like Xabi we had around two years of relative dross from him before his final season.

One other element has to be how good  and disciplined where the Swansea team and particulary Joe Allen who will surely move on after this season! Sometimes you have to realise there are two teams on the pitch and allow for the other team skills on the day, rather than think they should all just roll over for us at Anfield.

[leivapool]

Nice to have you back Rossi.

Just to pick up on the bolded part... I'd actually dispute that Lucas Moura was anywhere close to being a midfield playmaker. In simple terms he's basically a very quick but extremely raw right winger who hasn't really played any games in the traditional 'playmakers' position. I think that twenty minutes through the middle against Scotland served to fool a lot of people about what kind of player he was.

Anyhow, there are still loads of those natural playmakers about that Comolli could be looking at. Marvelous Marvin Martin, Jovetic (He did just sign a new 5 year deal at Fiorentina, but they are still a selling club) Ganso (Although i aint convinced about him and i think he'll end up playing for Milan).

I say make Suarez the playmaker and give Carroll an actual chance of showing what he did at the Toon up against the last defender.

Ganso is also very inexperienced, and very injury prone.  Did very poorly in the Copa America before he inevitably got injured.

We do need a quality athletic midfield playmaker, no doubt.

[Tony19:6]

There was me thinking the thread was about the Adam/Lucas partnership rather than a Charlie Adam slagfest ?

[kidnesiac]

We do need a quality athletic midfield playmaker, no doubt.

Éver Banega

[RedRush]

Why were we seemingly so desperate to get rid of Meireles and Aquilani, only to replace them with Adam?

From Comolli's mouth: Meireles wanted to leave. Aquilani has Stevie G in front of him. Why Adam? Fairly good cheap squad player willing to be sub when Stevie G returns. Fairly short-sighted I think.

[Mutton Geoff]

As for the two not at this club,one was let down by a purslow promise,(not the only one was he?) and wanted to leave,  the other who I wanted to stay was Homesick,neither of these factors were really solvable if you consider we cannot move to Italy to accomodate Albert and we didnt value Raul enough to fulfill a promise given by a man who thought he was at a new reality show called 'nonentity in the managers office!'

Therefore for one reason of another Albert and Raul, are gone so either forget them and stop wishing for the impossible, and stop comparing them with our players at the club now or support them and their new clubs!

Mind you I think Albert may be sorry he moved soon, given the economic situation in Italy.

[Sangria]

Adam is a provider of chances and a taker of them when given the room to do this and the other players finding the space for him to pass the ball into, however against a well drilled team like Swansea, he and Lucas were starved of players being free to pass to and therefore they appeared to be static whilst trying to retain possession of the ball and being closed down and over whelmed by the numbers in the Swansea midfield.

One other element has to be how good  and disciplined where the Swansea team and particulary Joe Allen who will surely move on after this season! Sometimes you have to realise there are two teams on the pitch and allow for the other team skills on the day, rather than think they should all just roll over for us at Anfield.

That's why I'd prefer to have Lucas and Spearing as a base, and push Adam further forward. If he's further forward when he receives the ball, he'll be in a better position to create chances, while Lucas and Spearing give a better balance of achieving the team's plans while stopping the other team from achieving theirs.

[RedRush]

There was me thinking the thread was about the Adam/Lucas partnership rather than a Charlie Adam slagfest ?

I think a lot are wondering about it too as there doesn't seem to be any kind of partnership thing going on, hence the Adam slagfest. Yes he is a creative offensive player, but ultimately poor defensively and positionally resulting in us being dominated in midfield in several games already. Really, really hope he turns into the kind of player that Kenny believes him to be and prove us all wrong!

[Mr Dilkington]

That's why I'd prefer to have Lucas and Spearing as a base, and push Adam further forward. If he's further forward when he receives the ball, he'll be in a better position to create chances, while Lucas and Spearing give a better balance of achieving the team's plans while stopping the other team from achieving theirs.

I don't think Adam has the mobility to play any higher than he is doing at the moment.

The higher up the pitch you go the more likely you are to be receiving the ball back to goal. Adam just aint that kinda guy who'll be able to take it on the half turn and wriggle away from a defender. For me you have to get him into an area where he can recieve the ball with a chance to quickly face the play and move it from there.

[RedRush]

As for the two not at this club,one was let down by a purslow promise,(not the only one was he?) and wanted to leave,  the other who I wanted to stay was Homesick,neither of these factors were really solvable if you consider we cannot move to Italy to accomodate Albert and we didnt value Raul enough to fulfill a promise given by a man who thought he was at a new reality show called 'nonentity in the managers office!'

Therefore for one reason of another Albert and Raul, are gone so either forget them and stop wishing for the impossible, and stop comparing them with our players at the club now or support them and their new clubs!

Mind you I think Albert may be sorry he moved soon, given the economic situation in Italy.

Aquilani wanted to stay but Comolli told him otherwise.

Source: http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/comolli-answers-your-questions

[RedRush]

That's why I'd prefer to have Lucas and Spearing as a base, and push Adam further forward. If he's further forward when he receives the ball, he'll be in a better position to create chances, while Lucas and Spearing give a better balance of achieving the team's plans while stopping the other team from achieving theirs.

I'd rather Suarez be in that position. With Maxi/Bellamy on his left and Kuyt on his right.

[leivapool]

From Comolli's mouth: Meireles wanted to leave. Aquilani has Stevie G in front of him. Why Adam? Fairly good cheap squad player willing to be sub when Stevie G returns. Fairly short-sighted I think.

Someone''s not giving the whole story.  From a Meireles interview:

'I made the right choice last year to come to England and to come to Liverpool and this year was different because I knew that I didn't want to leave Liverpool.'

http://www.chelseafc.com/page/PlayerInterviewsDetail/0,,10268~2443703,00.html

[rossipersempre]

Predictably dull and creepily stalker-ish as ever.

Blimey. You're like Robbie fucking Coltrane with all that Cracker shite about "being elevated to Kuyt's level" and my "one-eyed agenda" and "minimum knowledge". I still don't get your weirdly stubborn refusal to brook any criticism of players or tactics. I mean, why do you actually come on RAWK? To discuss or to blindly defend?

As for Xabi Alonso being a "Rossi God" (I actually cringed at that), followed up with that oft-spouted myth he was shite for two seasons (the ones he spent with broken metatarsals oddly enough), and well we've got all the makings of a typical pointless rant from you. And for the record, never once have I said Charlie Adam was a waste of money. I've merely said twice now that the adage about getting what we paid for rings true that's all.

I won't even begin to touch on the evidently high esteem with which you seem to hold Swansea City FC, suffice to say if you're so enamoured of them and harbour such low-level ideals for the sort of football that we ought to be playing, why don't you get yourself down to the Liberty Stadium every other week instead. I'm sure you'd be made most welcome.

What I find most ironic is that your opinion - that all is well, Adam is a great player, our midfield were just beaten on the day tra-la-la-la and will come good automatically given time - is not one I would expect to be shared by our manager. He was furious on Saturday night and rightly so.

[its cold in the stands]

i had concerns that when we knock anfield down and build the new whopperdome that we might not fill it but if all the whoppers in this thread go we`ll be fine.
11 games in and all this shite, rush got to the stage we he was threatened with going on the transfer list before he came good.
anyway dont let me stop you slating adam, carry on.....

[rossipersempre]

Mind you I think Albert may be sorry he moved soon, given the economic situation in Italy.

The poor wee mite. It's true though, him and Michela will be reduced to waiting tables in Milan's fancy restaurants to make ends meet. We should get in touch and offer him an escape route back from his San Siro hell.

[Tony19:6]

I think a lot are wondering about it too as there doesn't seem to be any kind of partnership thing going on, hence the Adam slagfest. Yes he is a creative offensive player, but ultimately poor defensively and positionally resulting in us being dominated in midfield in several games already. Really, really hope he turns into the kind of player that Kenny believes him to be and prove us all wrong!

I agree but its about both players not just Adam.
The deficiencies in Adams game defensively have been well documented here, but maybe, just maybe the opposite could be labelled against Lucas.
If they are both to play together rightly or wrongly theres a collective responsibility to ensure they both dont get dominated by a newly promoted side at home like they did on Saturday.

[rossipersempre]

rush got to the stage we he was threatened with going on the transfer list before he came good.
anyway dont let me stop you slating adam, carry on.....

Difference being Adam is not a shy 19 year old Welsh youth who can't hit the back of the net.

But I agree in general, a massive kick up the arse can work wonders. Except it's not a tactic often employed in this era of multi-millionaire players is it? Adam should have been rightly benched by now, yet for as long as he is given an automatic start, he'll just think he's doing ok.

[rossipersempre]

I agree but its about both players not just Adam.
The deficiencies in Adams game defensively have been well documented here, but maybe, just maybe the opposite could be labelled against Lucas.
If they are both to play together rightly or wrongly theres a collective responsibility to ensure they both dont get dominated by a newly promoted side at home like they did on Saturday.

Yes there is a collective responsibility, but the thing is Lucas is playing his normal game. The change in personnel, and the deficiencies therein, is what is contributing to our failure to control the midfield. Which is why the focus is rightly on Adam's merits.

[rossipersempre]

As for the Aquilani/Meireles PR offensive, I think it's obvious that both players ideally wanted to stay but were told that they would be down the pecking order and moves would be better for all concerned. In Meireles' case, the financial clause was used as a stick to push him to the exit.

[scatman]

I agree but its about both players not just Adam.
The deficiencies in Adams game defensively have been well documented here, but maybe, just maybe the opposite could be labelled against Lucas.
If they are both to play together rightly or wrongly theres a collective responsibility to ensure they both dont get dominated by a newly promoted side at home like they did on Saturday.

Yes but if Lucas is always covering for these defensive deficiences that Adam has, how can you also expect him to cover up his attack deficiences? If we want to Lucas to do all that, why not just drop Adam and have Lucas as a super one man midfield. Because reading your post that's exactly what you're expecting from him.

[Tony19:6]

Yes there is a collective responsibility, but the thing is Lucas is playing his normal game. The change in personnel, and the deficiencies therein, is what is contributing to our failure to control the midfield. Which is why the focus is rightly on Adam's merits.

No, Lucas is not playing anywhere near the standards he set last year, so he needs to shoulder his share of responsibilty too.

[Hazell]

As for the Aquilani/Meireles PR offensive, I think it's obvious that both players ideally wanted to stay but were told that they would be down the pecking order and moves would be better for all concerned. In Meireles' case, the financial clause was used as a stick to push him to the exit.

It's not so much a PR offensive as a natural comparison with the players Adam replaced. As it is, most of the discussion has been about how we can improve, either with or without Adam as opposed to a 'slagfest'.

Not sure about yourself though Rossi, Adam looks like the new Kuyt.

[RedRush]

Someone''s not giving the whole story.  From a Meireles interview:
'I made the right choice last year to come to England and to come to Liverpool and this year was different because I knew that I didn't want to leave Liverpool.'
http://www.chelseafc.com/page/PlayerInterviewsDetail/0,,10268~2443703,00.html

Interesting if true. That's something I don't quite like about Comolli. The sneakiness I mean.
 

I agree but its about both players not just Adam.
The deficiencies in Adams game defensively have been well documented here, but maybe, just maybe the opposite could be labelled against Lucas.
If they are both to play together rightly or wrongly theres a collective responsibility to ensure they both dont get dominated by a newly promoted side at home like they did on Saturday.

Lucas has done very well with quite a number of partners even when he was new to the team. I remember him playing very well with Stevie G against Newcastle (5-1), Mancs (4-1), etc, with Alonso against Chelsea (4-4), etc. Later, when he was played more often, he was very good with Raul and then Spearing too. To be fair, that was when we had Kuyt on the right and not Downing on the left. Now our midfield setup is Downing-Adam-Lucas-Hendo, so there's 2 defensively naive players in there, and 1 very inexperienced one, so Lucas is always going to be super-stretched defensively. To expect more from him is too much. He's not superman.

[its cold in the stands]

Difference being Adam is not a shy 19 year old Welsh youth who can't hit the back of the net.

But I agree in general, a massive kick up the arse can work wonders. Except it's not a tactic often employed in this era of multi-millionaire players is it? Adam should have been rightly benched by now, yet for as long as he is given an automatic start, he'll just think he's doing ok.

what about terry mcdermott then? signed in 74, not a regular until 77 and then a season or so later part of the best midfield ever to play for this club.
half the people spouting shite on here couldnt even manage the dog and duck but give them a keyboard and next minute they know all the answers and they think they are the next bob paisley, then again i bet half the whoppers in this thread have never heard of paisley i`d better make that sacchi.
11 games, and he hasnt even been that bad, unbelievable.

[Tony19:6]

Yes but if Lucas is always covering for these defensive deficiences that Adam has, how can you also expect him to cover up his attack deficiences? If we want to Lucas to do all that, why not just drop Adam and have Lucas as a super one man midfield. Because reading your post that's exactly what you're expecting from him.

You've just read it wrong.

[RedRush]

No, Lucas is not playing anywhere near the standards he set last year, so he needs to shoulder his share of responsibilty too.

Or it could be because he's too stretched playing with Adam. Played normal defensively against Stoke with Spearing as his partner in midfield in the CC this year.

[Buzz Killington]

half the people spouting shite on here couldnt even manage the dog and duck but give them a keyboard and next minute they know all the answers and they think they are the next bob paisley, then again i bet half the whoppers in this thread have never heard of paisley i`d better make that sacchi.
11 games, and he hasnt even been that bad, unbelievable.

It's a forum, what the hell do you expect mate? All I've seen is discussion on the partnership, why not try refuting some of the points people are making?

And Adam's done okay I think, just needs to offer a bit more defensively.

[Cadno]

No, Lucas is not playing anywhere near the standards he set last year, so he needs to shoulder his share of responsibilty too.

yes bit it seems Lucas needs to shoulder all the defensive responsibility whilst also contributing to the attack whilst Adam seems to be expected to contribute little to nothing in defence whilst providing an attacking threat,  which so far has only really come from set pieces.  Your probably right on that Lucas has not been playing to last years standard.  It's also fairly easy to see what has changed to cause this.

[rossipersempre]

what about terry mcdermott then? signed in 74, not a regular until 77 and then a season or so later part of the best midfield ever to play for this club.

If only we had another Stevie Heighway on the LW....

[its cold in the stands]

If only we had another Stevie Heighway on the LW....

heighway couldnt get into that midfield, he was played up front and on the bench a lot
kennedy mcdermott souness case