Topic: Jeremy Corbyn : RAWK Decides!

[Trendisnotdestiny]

You have to feel sorry for Jezza. The poor old chap has no option - he just has to facilitate Brexit and tax cuts for the rich. He’s doing it for us.

All I can say is: thank you Jeremy, thank you for your sacrifice. You and your crew suffer along on your Ł100k a year as leader of the opposition. But yours is a new kind of politics. Not opposing in the old Blairite neo-liberal way, just shafting the rest of us for the sake of some Bennite version of Brexit.

Alan, can you discuss this more for us neophytes.  I dig Tony Benn, but I am not sure I understand how he could take democratic socialists stances and be for Brexit.  I am sure there is a lot there to unpack, but I am truly baffled why Corbyn is so dead set for this stinking idea. 

Is it cover for some other agenda or does the work of Benn somewhere espouse getting out of the EU?

Honestly, bewildered.   To the uneducated, yank eye --- this is a massive betrayal - supporting Brexit.  Surely, he has had to explain the complexities of this position?

[BoRed]

Do they really call eachother comrade?

Of course they don't. It's just that the person whose motion was voted down is a Corbynite and uses that term. And, obviously, it's Corbyn's fault it was voted down. Somehow.

I can't say i read the whole post in detail but it would appear the mental gymnastics has them not knowing left from right. There can really be no excuse for not condemning the attack.

It turns out it was a composite motion and, while no one opposed condemning the attack, some (centrists?) objected to other parts of the motion. A bit like if we had a vote here for the motion saying "I condemn the Pittsburgh attack and I love Jeremy Corbyn", with the only two options being yes and no. It's a non-story, a local squabble at best.

[J_Kopite]

And they say Corbyn hasn’t  flamed the fire of antisemitism.

This is scarcely believable. Stockton Labour meeting votes down motion condemning Pittsburg synagogue massacre.

https://www.facebook.com/comradecooke/posts/10157776770608219

Could you be arsed associating yourself with some group like that?

Don't want to offend anyone here but the people within local politics always seem so weird.

[BoRed]

Alan, can you discuss this more for us neophytes.  I dig Tony Benn, but I am not sure I understand how he could take democratic socialists stances and be for Brexit.  I am sure there is a lot there to unpack, but I am truly baffled why Corbyn is so dead set for this stinking idea. 

Is it cover for some other agenda or does the work of Benn somewhere espouse getting out of the EU?

Honestly, bewildered.   To the uneducated, yank eye --- this is a massive betrayal - supporting Brexit.  Surely, he has had to explain the complexities of this position?

There are no complexities. It's based on the simplistic idea that Brexit will enable Corbyn to enact a socialist revolution in the UK, which would have been impossible under EU regulations. It's idiotic.

And, as many above have said, it's the reason I voted OK, and no more than that.

[Not that Gareth]

It turns out it was a composite motion and, while no one opposed condemning the attack, some (centrists?) objected to other parts of the motion. A bit like if we had a vote here for the motion saying "I condemn the Pittsburgh attack and I love Jeremy Corbyn", with the only two options being yes and no. It's a non-story, a local squabble at best.

That really does not sound much better, surely they could just agree to condemn the attack and move the other stuff else where. Failure to agree on this, even if at a small local level, perhaps alludes to the larger problems for Labour.

[Alan_X]

Alan, can you discuss this more for us neophytes.  I dig Tony Benn, but I am not sure I understand how he could take democratic socialists stances and be for Brexit.  I am sure there is a lot there to unpack, but I am truly baffled why Corbyn is so dead set for this stinking idea. 

Is it cover for some other agenda or does the work of Benn somewhere espouse getting out of the EU?

Honestly, bewildered.   To the uneducated, yank eye --- this is a massive betrayal - supporting Brexit.  Surely, he has had to explain the complexities of this position?

The Marxists, The Socialist Workers Party and the left in the Labour Party have always seen the EU as a capitalist enterprise. Don’t ask me to explain it.

[Red-Soldier]

Comrade is used about a dozen times in that post. Makes me ashamed for them.

I've been out with my local Labour Party and some of them call each other comrade.   

[Andy @ Allerton!]

There was no way Labour could vote against the tax cuts because they would have been also voting against tax cuts for lower paid earners because both were linked.

And they can put the higher rate back up when they come to power.

Strange Blairites who enabled the Tories to take money away from the poorest people now suddenly find a heart  like fuck have they.

For them its all about trying to split the party when most people understand why Labour had to vote for it.

Because they are Brexit supporting bellends that basically have supported the Tories ever since Brexit came about?

Do I win Ł10?

[The Gulleysucker]

Any disloyal Labour Blairite MPs voting against the Tories tonight should just fuck off and join the Tor....errr.....hang on, ermmm...I'd better think about this for a sec.....ermmm....I know...

There was no way Labour could vote against the tax cuts because they would have been also voting against tax cuts for lower paid earners because both were linked.

And they can put the higher rate back up when they come to power.

Strange Blairites who enabled the Tories to take money away from the poorest people now suddenly find a heart  like fuck have they.

For them its all about trying to split the party when most people understand why Labour had to vote for it.

Sure.

[zero zero]

Strange Blairites who enabled the Tories to take money away from the poorest people now suddenly find a heart  like fuck have they.

So, to recap, there was no way Her Majesty's Opposition could vote against the Tory government (again), but it's the Blairites who are the Tory enablers?

Brexit - Shite
anti-Semitism - Shite

That's as much as I need. I'll be happy to vote Lib Dem in forthcoming elections.

[Trada]

So, to recap, there was no way Her Majesty's Opposition could vote against the Tory government (again), but it's the Blairites who are the Tory enablers?

Brexit - Shite
anti-Semitism - Shite

That's as much as I need. I'll be happy to vote Lib Dem in forthcoming elections.

Of course they can't vote against tax cuts for low earners.

The Blairites voted with the Tories and the Fib Dems to enable Austerity and to take money from the disabled, the poor, children and forcing millions of people into poverty and bringing public services to its knees.

As Chuka said at the time he had to vote with the Tories because he was worried what they would think of him if he didn't.

And as anti-Semitism the leaked document said there are 45 cases which 14 cases maybe serious out of 700,000 members at least the police are looking into it now odd the BBC reported it as the police are investigating the Labour party when they are not the Labour party and 99.999999% of the Labour membership are not under investigation.

Strange it was leaked yesterday when the Tory MP in court for election fraud said he was just following orders from Tory HQ and May has been accused of stopping the police looking into Arron Banks when she was Home Secretary.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Of course they can't vote against tax cuts for low earners.

I will post this AGAIN but I expect you to ignore it for a 3rd time.

Former cabinet minister Ms Cooper criticised the government, saying: "They're going ahead with over Ł1bn in real cuts to tax credits and benefits this coming year for the poorest families.

"At the same time they are choosing to spend about the same amount of money on tax cuts for higher rate taxpayers, including those on more than Ł100,000 a year.

"A lone parent with a four-year-old working part-time could end up being nearly Ł3,000 worse off whereas the high earners end up being over Ł1,000 better off."

SNP work and pensions spokesman Neil Gray accused the chancellor of having brought in a tax cut which "disproportionately benefits higher earners the most" instead of stopping the benefit freeze.

For the government, Chief Secretary to the Treasury Liz Truss said it was a shame Mr McDonnell's party did not agree with him and joked to the shadow chancellor there was "space for you on our frontbench".

[TepidT2O]

Of course they can't vote against tax cuts for low earners.

The Blairites voted with the Tories and the Fib Dems to enable Austerity and to take money from the disabled, the poor, children and forcing millions of people into poverty and bringing public services to its knees.

As Chuka said at the time he had to vote with the Tories because he was worried what they would think of him if he didn't.

And as anti-Semitism the leaked document said there are 45 cases which 14 cases maybe serious out of 700,000 members at least the police are looking into it now odd the BBC reported it as the police are investigating the Labour party when they are not the Labour party and 99.999999% of the Labour membership are not under investigation.

Strange it was leaked yesterday when the Tory MP in court for election fraud said he was just following orders from Tory HQ and May has been accused of stopping the police looking into Arron Banks 

This is what they voted for.

Look at it.  Look who gets fucked

They voted for the poorest getting stuffed over everyone else.

This is what you support?  Fucking hell, it’s certainly for the many not the few.  It’s just that the few are the poor.


And this is the same graph for what the ‘Blairite’ governments did

Genuinely for the many.

[Zeb]

The Blairites voted with the Tories and the Fib Dems to enable Austerity and to take money from the disabled, the poor, children and forcing millions of people into poverty and bringing public services to its knees.

Eh? When? Do you mean when the Labour party abstained on a vote they couldn't have won after having supported an amendment protesting at the Tory policy?

I'm Ł1600 a year down (Resolution Foundation's figures for freeze plus DLA to PIP transfer) in 2018 to 2010, but the last person I'm blaming is Harriet Harman for that. If the party was big enough for Jeremy to vote on principles a few hundred times then it's big enough for Lucy Powell to vote against the whip for the very first time because she thinks the money spent on the tax cut could be far more effectively spent in other ways. eg Joseph Rowntree Foundation's alternative proposal.

edit: autocorrekt

[Elmo!]

Meanwhile Corbyn ally and Scottish Labour leader Richard Leonard says the Scottish Government shouldn't match the tax cut.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/13489/scottish-labour-distance-themselves-john-mcdonnell-tax-cuts-higher-earners

Do as I say and not as I do...

[Antoine Lavoisier]

Do they really call eachother comrade?

It reminds me of Carry on at your Convenience!

[Trada]

I see the media are spinning the story about a local CLP voting down a motion on calling the tragic shooting in America at the Synagogue as Anti Semitic as a anti Jeremy story. When it was pro Jeremy CLP members that put the motion forward and voted for it and for some reason the Blairite members voted it down.

[TepidT2O]

I see the media are spinning the story about a local CLP voting down a motion on calling the tragic shooting in America at the Synagogue as Anti Semitic as a anti Jeremy story. When it was pro Jeremy CLP members that put the motion forward and voted for it and for some reason the Blairite members voted it down.

It matters not who vote for it.  It’s disgusting.

[Trada]

I'm annoyed I forgot Chris Williamson was in Frome today giving a talk to the Frome CLP

[Alan_X]

Did he explain how anti-semitism is just a Blairite/MSM plot against Corbyn?

[Yorkykopite]

Is that the Youth wing?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Is that the Youth wing?

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Did he bring any freebies from RT?

[The Gulleysucker]

I'm annoyed I forgot Chris Williamson was in Frome today giving a talk to the Frome CLP

Don't tell me you missed this?...



link if it's not showing

I'm not quite sure, perhaps I should say as you do that It's strange, exactly why a Derby MP feels he has to go all the way to Frome to give talks to the faithful though I suppose it's probably a good idea to be seen and to gladhand any potential voters amongst the membership for any possible upcoming leadership election.

That is the real reason, isn't it?

[jillcwhomever]

And they say Corbyn hasn’t  flamed the fire of antisemitism.

This is scarcely believable. Stockton Labour meeting votes down motion condemning Pittsburg synagogue massacre.

https://www.facebook.com/comradecooke/posts/10157776770608219

OMG, they are just horrible human beings. 

[Alan_X]

Interesting piece by Andrew Rawnsley in today's Observer. As I said a few pages back, I think McDonnell would be a better Labor leader than Corbyn and like Rawnsley I think McDonnell is showing evidence of the pragmatism that will be required to bring the centre ground on board and move Corbyn's Labour on from the 'base'. This section gets to the heart of it:

It is a bit crude to characterise the divide between the two men at the top as a clash between the ideological “purism” of Mr Corbyn and the compromising “pragmatism” of Mr McDonnell, labels that over-damn and overpraise them both. Yet there clearly is a difference of approach here, even if it is essentially about tactics, ambition and temperament. One of the shadow cabinet once remarked to me that both men have been “on a journey” as they adjusted from growing grey in the wilderness to becoming the two most significant figures in the Labour party. I think it fair to remark that Mr McDonnell’s journey has been the more interesting one. This is not to say at all that he has abandoned his convictions. He will still talk happily about his admiration for the works of Karl Marx and has never renounced his ambition to “overthrow capitalism”. If he ever gets to the Treasury, he will be the most leftwing occupant of the office in more than 60 years, arguably ever.

The difference is that Mr McDonnell has devoted more time and energy than Mr Corbyn to thinking about how they would try to put their domestic programme into practice. The shadow chancellor will go and talk to business audiences, and even seems to relish the experience, while the Labour leader remains as allergic as always to engaging with any group that might take him out of his ideological comfort zone. The shadow chancellor is more palpably hungry for power. He believes they have a once-in-a-generation chance to form the sort of radical left government that they have spent decades dreaming about and that goal should be their relentless focus. This is why Mr McDonnell was so furious that Mr Corbyn allowed Labour’s summer to be devoured by the ugly furore over antisemitism, drowning out anything that the party had to say about the economy or any other subject.

I think it is also reasonable to say that Mr McDonnell is better at maths than Mr Corbyn. This means he has been thinking harder about the coalition of voters that Labour will need to assemble if the party is to win the next election, rather than lose yet another one. Justifying the stance he took on the budget, the shadow chancellor observed that the beneficiaries of the tax changes would include better-paid workers in the public sector, such as headteachers. Labour did very well among public-sector professionals as a group at the last election and the shadow chancellor wants to hang on to their support.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/04/the-labour-stagecoach-has-hit-a-bump-and-got-stuck-in-a-rut

[The Gulleysucker]

I think it is probably a quite accurate portrayal of what's been happening recently.

Re McDonnell, I've always thought he is the real threat to Corbyn.

....Personally, if I was Corbyn, I'd be keeping a close eye on McDonnell, as despite constant denials, like Cassius, I've always thought he has a lean and hungry look about him.

From old locked thread here

[the 92A]

When we were involved in local dispute and out on strike met McDonnell a few times when most Labour politicians, would have nothing to do with the FBU. I found him genuine charming and more importantly, he under promised and over delivered, we were all very impressed by him. This was a few years ago, but watching him rise and being demonised jolted with my experience of the man who put a lot of energy and work into helping a group of workers from his own city under the radar for little personal gain

[The Gulleysucker]

I've heard a few people who have met him in person say similar.

I'm coming round to thinking he would possibly make a better 'leader' than Corbyn.

While I worry about his often flippant attitude to some financial concerns, certainly his off the record ones, I think he is likely a lot more pragmatic and less ideological than some others he shares the opposition front bench with. He also comes across as a bit more avuncular, perhaps that's an exaggeration and it's more pugnacious, but unlike Corbyn, he just seems so much more comfortable in the media and handling what the hostile parts might throw at him.

I suspect he's also far less concerned with Middle Eastern foreign policy issues that some others seem to be.

If he came out wholeheartedly in favour of a new referendum to get out of the current mess together with an insistence that we remain in the EU, he'd probably start to win me over and perhaps a good few others who have felt badly let down by the direction of Labour over the last few years.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

McDonnell demoted Corbyns son recently as well

As for McDonnell his past statements do very much concern me but he’s been far more pragmatic and as that post said he’s happy to speak to those not so much on his side, his big problem would be if it was perceived he stabbed Corbyn in the back to get the top job which could make his life difficult

[TepidT2O]

When we were involved in local dispute and out on strike met McDonnell a few times when most Labour politicians, would have nothing to do with the FBU. I found him genuine charming and more importantly, he under promised and over delivered, we were all very impressed by him. This was a few years ago, but watching him rise and being demonised jolted with my experience of the man who put a lot of energy and work into helping a group of workers from his own city under the radar for little personal gain

I know other people who have the chance to cross him and they’ve said that he was an extremely unpleasant man.

However.  Better my bastard than someone else’s bastard I guess.

He’s a million times better than Corbyn. He actaully understands politics and that you have to pitch things in the right way and you need to ‘play the game’ to get what you want.  He is also able to think on his feet better than Corbyn which is so important.  Corbyn is very good at holding a placard, but really poor at actually doing things that work. 

We need more than words and McDonnell would at least bring that.

[Zeb]

Would be a bit surprising if McDonnell put himself forward as leader, wouldn't it? Although I know he's done a fair bit recently with MPs you'd perhaps not expect, especially in 'Leave' voting towns and in coming up with ways to try and reach voters in them. Whether that's preparation for a potential public shift on Labour's position on the single market or for a future election seems a little moot. Labour could theoretically get a majority in Parliament by targeting just a few thousand of those voters so long as they keep the rest of their coalition together.

[BlackandWhitePaul]

'Great'

[TepidT2O]

Would be a bit surprising if McDonnell put himself forward as leader, wouldn't it? Although I know he's done a fair bit recently with MPs you'd perhaps not expect, especially in 'Leave' voting towns and in coming up with ways to try and reach voters in them. Whether that's preparation for a potential public shift on Labour's position on the single market or for a future election seems a little moot. Labour could theoretically get a majority in Parliament by targeting just a few thousand of those voters so long as they keep the rest of their coalition together.

If you believe reports, relations between him and Corbwaz haven’t been good for six months.
Now, of course they don’t believe in having a leader... but when their greedy little noses get a sniff of power, all politicians are the same..
Power corrupts, it corrupts values, and I can’t just ignore the reports of tensions with that in mind..

But would McDonnell be able to carry the Corbyn cranks (and I mean the cranks not your run of the mill member) or would they bugger back off to the communists, SWP and the like ?

Would be interesting

[vivabobbygraham]

'Great'

Ditto 

[TepidT2O]

Ditto 

Why?  I’m interested.. mostly because I don’t think he’s anything of the sort.  It’s good to understand even if not agree.

[Alan_X]

Would be a bit surprising if McDonnell put himself forward as leader, wouldn't it?...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2006/dec/20/labourdeputy.labour

McDonnell put himself up for leader in 2006 and the question was whether an unknown mate of his called Corbyn would run for deputy leader.

[vivabobbygraham]

Why?  I’m interested.. mostly because I don’t think he’s anything of the sort.  It’s good to understand even if not agree.

Oh, do behave, Tepid, old bean

[Alan_X]

Oh, do behave, Tepid, old bean

It's a fair question. I was speaking to someone yesterday who's finally given up on Corbyn. That seems to be the general direction of travel.

What are his achievements as leader that make him 'great'?

[vivabobbygraham]

It's a fair question. I was speaking to someone yesterday who's finally given up on Corbyn. That seems to be the general direction of travel.

What are his achievements as leader that make him 'great'?

You can fuck off an' all, Al. I've read this thread and others you are involved in. Me politics is me own business. I just dipped in to give a thumbs up to Jezza. I like him.