Topic: The Klopp Template

[naYoRHa2b]

I know we joke about amateur physios and amateur psychiatrists....but wow

There is no real reason we are so fatigued both mentally and physically? Really? I mean.....playing every game last season? Mental toll from last season? Shortened break pre-season due to the WC in December? Injuries meaning others are having to play every game? And to talk about this group of players as deliberately looking disinterested.... Incredible.

Alisson (goalkeeper), Harvey and Diaz (both barely played for us in the grand scheme of things) are the only three who seem ok? Well isn't that quite the coincidence

Like Ferrari eh, self sabotage. Like Klopp said, Wolves will be laughing at, we look like clowns. Wonder how long before we get the pitwall memes with Jürgen, Pep and Peter.

[Dim Glas]

if he was we wouldn't be in this mess. Not sure if his hands are tied or he is just too loyal to his players which is not such a bad thing after players giving their all for him. Milner, hendo, ox and keita would have been flogged off long before their decline. We could have recouped a decent sum and saved on wages which we are burning on players that are perpetually in the treatment room.

Yeah, damn him for putting us in this mess eh 

Again, contracts - you can’t ‘flog off players’ who are contracted unless they agree to it. 

Sure, if it makes you feel better have a dig at him, Michael Edwards, Julain Ward and whoever else deals with contracts for giving Milner a new 1 year deal, and for giving Ox a new deal when he was hurt. But honestly that there is prime level cryarsery written after the fact. Most here where more than happy for these contracts to be given out at the time - in fact loving the loyalty to this team. So easy for us to say different now though isn’t it.

Is he loyal? Yes, to players who deserve loyalty. To a fault? Not sure about that. Not a huge amount of evidence to support that. Maybe the Henderson contract extension being to long for many, is an example, if that counts.

[Fromola]

Yeah, damn him for putting us in this mess eh 

Again, contracts - you can’t ‘flog off players’ who are contracted unless they agree to it. 

Sure, if it makes you feel better have a dig at him, Michael Edwards, Julain Ward and whoever else deals with contracts for giving Milner a new 1 year deal, and for giving Ox a new deal when he was hurt. But honestly that there is prime level cryarsery written after the fact. Most here where more than happy for these contracts to be given out at the time - in fact loving the loyalty to this team. So easy for us to say different now though isn’t it.

Is he loyal? Yes, to players who deserve loyalty. To a fault? Not sure about that. Not a huge amount of evidence to support that. Maybe the Henderson contract extension being to long for many, is an example, if that counts.

There's nuances involved as well. If you look at some of the more questionable contracts:

Henderson: If he left last year people would have kicked off a lot and he stayed and played a key part of a team that nearly won the lot. If he didn't sign he wanted to leave and he backed the club into a corner by doing that.

Milner: Keeping him around in the squad is still important but his role should have hugely diminished the last couple of years and he still ends up playing every week. Therefore the mistake isn't so much giving him the deal but having too many squad deficiencies/a lack of investment in midfield (or right back).

Ox: A good gesture from the club but a bad business decision. Ditto with Sturridge when he was out long term and got a long term deal. They end up sitting out their contracts offering little value for money.

I don't think anyone would seriously argue we should have got rid of Van Dijk last year and not give him a contract for example. And everyone wanted Salah to renew.

[Eeyore]

There's nuances involved as well. If you look at some of the more questionable contracts:

Henderson: If he left last year people would have kicked off a lot and he stayed and played a key part of a team that nearly won the lot. If he didn't sign he wanted to leave and he backed the club into a corner by doing that.

Milner: Keeping him around in the squad is still important but his role should have hugely diminished the last couple of years and he still ends up playing every week. Therefore the mistake isn't so much giving him the deal but having too many squad deficiencies/a lack of investment in midfield (or right back).

Ox: A good gesture from the club but a bad business decision. Ditto with Sturridge when he was out long term and got a long term deal. They end up sitting out their contracts offering little value for money.

I don't think anyone would seriously argue we should have got rid of Van Dijk last year and not give him a contract for example. And everyone wanted Salah to renew.

The problem is when you don't have the funds to buy players of the required standard then you are pretty much forced into extending contracts. Hendo is a good example. How much would you have to spend on a 23-24 year old replacement.

We are continually trying to correct glaring deficiencies in the squad. The owners continually kick the can down the road. Instead of being proactive and being ahead of the curve, we end up trying to correct previous seasons issues.

[Fromola]

The problem is when you don't have the funds to buy players of the required standard then you are pretty much forced into extending contracts. Hendo is a good example. How much would you have to spend on a 23-24 year old replacement.

We are continually trying to correct glaring deficiencies in the squad. The owners continually kick the can down the road. Instead of being proactive and being ahead of the curve, we end up trying to correct previous seasons issues.

We do tend to operate a year behind where we should be in the market which has a knock on effect and can backfire (i.e. not getting a CB in 2020 with Jota and Tsimikas prioritised with the budget we had rather than strengthen those areas in 2019 when we signed nobody). I think the mistake we've made this time is operating two years behind with the midfield. Renewing Wijnaldum would have been 'kicking the can down the road' given his age but he was released and not replaced which was even worse.

[Dave McCoy]

The problem is when you don't have the funds to buy players of the required standard then you are pretty much forced into extending contracts. Hendo is a good example. How much would you have to spend on a 23-24 year old replacement.

We are continually trying to correct glaring deficiencies in the squad. The owners continually kick the can down the road. Instead of being proactive and being ahead of the curve, we end up trying to correct previous seasons issues.

This is ludicrous. Hendo is probably on £200k/w at least with his most recent extension. That's a £31m commitment at minimum but we don't have funds? You seriously need to start putting more thought into this stuff.

[Samie]

We need to get back into this mindset. 

"Football Is War"-Rinus Michels

[ScouserAtHeart]

Football is one big lie!

[xbugawugax]

We do tend to operate a year behind where we should be in the market which has a knock on effect and can backfire (i.e. not getting a CB in 2020 with Jota and Tsimikas prioritised with the budget we had rather than strengthen those areas in 2019 when we signed nobody). I think the mistake we've made this time is operating two years behind with the midfield. Renewing Wijnaldum would have been 'kicking the can down the road' given his age but he was released and not replaced which was even worse.

he was replaced. but with an aging and injury prone thiago. No doubt that if thiago is as robust as gini we wouldn't be having this conversation now. similarly with keita.

the evolution of our team have just hit a bump i guess. elliot, fabio, jota, darwin,diaz are the future but they do need time to adapt i guess and of course a couple of high quality robust and ever present replacements in the middle would help. Our style of play havent actually changed since we won and teams are more aware of how to counter. On top of that the quality of replacements isn't just high enough or need to be slowly bedded in.

[Fromola]

he was replaced. but with an aging and injury prone thiago. No doubt that if thiago is as robust as gini we wouldn't be having this conversation now. similarly with keita.

the evolution of our team have just hit a bump i guess. elliot, fabio, jota, darwin,diaz are the future but they do need time to adapt i guess and of course a couple of high quality robust and ever present replacements in the middle would help. Our style of play havent actually changed since we won and teams are more aware of how to counter. On top of that the quality of replacements isn't just high enough or need to be slowly bedded in.

Gini was an ever present in 20/21, when he left in 2021 he still needed replacing. He was still one of the first names on Klopp's team sheet.

[Eeyore]

This is ludicrous. Hendo is probably on £200k/w at least with his most recent extension. That's a £31m commitment at minimum but we don't have funds? You seriously need to start putting more thought into this stuff.

You are missing your true vocation Dave.

You should be put in charge of transfers if you can sign a 23-24 year old World class midfield player who will only cost us £31m in transfer fees, wages and agents fees.

[Haggis36]

There's nuances involved as well. If you look at some of the more questionable contracts:

Henderson: If he left last year people would have kicked off a lot and he stayed and played a key part of a team that nearly won the lot. If he didn't sign he wanted to leave and he backed the club into a corner by doing that.

Milner: Keeping him around in the squad is still important but his role should have hugely diminished the last couple of years and he still ends up playing every week. Therefore the mistake isn't so much giving him the deal but having too many squad deficiencies/a lack of investment in midfield (or right back).

Ox: A good gesture from the club but a bad business decision. Ditto with Sturridge when he was out long term and got a long term deal. They end up sitting out their contracts offering little value for money.

I don't think anyone would seriously argue we should have got rid of Van Dijk last year and not give him a contract for example. And everyone wanted Salah to renew.

Henderson's previous deal would have run until next summer, when he will be 33 - it's not like we were in imminent danger of losing him. If we were having the conversation again now, I really doubt anyone would be advocating giving him a hefty three year contract on current form (which is what he has left to run). We don't know the numbers involved, but it'd be fairly safe to assume that as club captain he's on a fair bit (very conservatively, let's say £120k+ a week). It was a weird decision at the time and looks even worse with hindsight.

Milner should never have been given a new deal because it was plain to plenty of people that a) the manager's temptation to give him plenty of gametime would be too great if he stayed, b) his presence would be used as an excuse to justify not bringing in fresh blood ("but we have x midfielders!!") and c) he's not of the required level anymore. Keeping him around purely for leadership reasons does a discredit to other members of the squad - if we need him around to maintain professional standards we have big problems. The Ox one was a sentimental decision, there was no need to renew a player who had three years left on a deal and was coming off the back of a catastrophic knee injury which has ultimately derailed his career.

I'm not sure to what extent the committee are involved in contract renewals, but the club have been making questionable decisions for a while. I'm not convinced those decisions were financial in nature, but I guess we'll see come next summer - the owners will need to put their money where their mouth is in a big way.

[El Lobo]

Like Ferrari eh, self sabotage. Like Klopp said, Wolves will be laughing at, we look like clowns. Wonder how long before we get the pitwall memes with Jürgen, Pep and Peter.

No one’s arsed about you being upset with the F1

[Egyptian36]

Henderson's previous deal would have run until next summer, when he will be 33 - it's not like we were in imminent danger of losing him. If we were having the conversation again now, I really doubt anyone would be advocating giving him a hefty three year contract on current form (which is what he has left to run). We don't know the numbers involved, but it'd be fairly safe to assume that as club captain he's on a fair bit (very conservatively, let's say £120k+ a week). It was a weird decision at the time and looks even worse with hindsight.

Milner should never have been given a new deal because it was plain to plenty of people that a) the manager's temptation to give him plenty of gametime would be too great if he stayed, b) his presence would be used as an excuse to justify not bringing in fresh blood ("but we have x midfielders!!") and c) he's not of the required level anymore. Keeping him around purely for leadership reasons does a discredit to other members of the squad - if we need him around to maintain professional standards we have big problems. The Ox one was a sentimental decision, there was no need to renew a player who had three years left on a deal and was coming off the back of a catastrophic knee injury which has ultimately derailed his career.

I'm not sure to what extent the committee are involved in contract renewals, but the club have been making questionable decisions for a while. I'm not convinced those decisions were financial in nature, but I guess we'll see come next summer - the owners will need to put their money where their mouth is in a big way.

I would say it's all for financial reasons. Klopp and the recruitment team work within a limited budget and if you can't get offers good enough to buy a replacement what choice you are left with other than keeping the player

[Dave McCoy]

You are missing your true vocation Dave.

You should be put in charge of transfers if you can sign a 23-24 year old World class midfield player who will only cost us £31m in transfer fees, wages and agents fees.

So actual facts mean nothing to your agenda. Money was spent and whether you deemed it enough or not is immaterial. Pretty sure there are examples on this current squad where that amount of money would have been sufficient. Maybe sports isn't for you? Plenty of other hobbies out there where you can just make up whatever you want.

[Samie]

Kloppo will be thanking dear old Liz for the extra rest.

[RedG13]

Yeah, damn him for putting us in this mess eh 

Again, contracts - you can’t ‘flog off players’ who are contracted unless they agree to it. 

Sure, if it makes you feel better have a dig at him, Michael Edwards, Julain Ward and whoever else deals with contracts for giving Milner a new 1 year deal, and for giving Ox a new deal when he was hurt. But honestly that there is prime level cryarsery written after the fact. Most here where more than happy for these contracts to be given out at the time - in fact loving the loyalty to this team. So easy for us to say different now though isn’t it.

Is he loyal? Yes, to players who deserve loyalty. To a fault? Not sure about that. Not a huge amount of evidence to support that. Maybe the Henderson contract extension being to long for many, is an example, if that counts.

wasn't Henderson Extension basically a 1 year plus like Option type extension?

[Sinyoro]

Don't blame the players, something has gone wrong with the preparation for the season.

I think the players were over-worked in preseason and are still possibly being overstretched.

We will reap the benefits when the real grind starts, its not too late.

Keep your hopes up Reds

[Knight]

Interesting to see the ‘players were overworked in pre-season’ narrative. A poster was lambasted for asking whether our pre season conditioning was right. Now it’s become almost the accepted explanation for this train wreck. How quickly things change.

[Dave McCoy]

Interesting to see the ‘players were overworked in pre-season’ narrative. A poster was lambasted for asking whether our pre season conditioning was right. Now it’s become almost the accepted explanation for this train wreck. How quickly things change.

Because the alternative is that they're downing tools so by default I think almost any LFC fan has to believe this now even if it seemed ludicrous in preseason.

[Knight]

Because the alternative is that they're downing tools so by default I think almost any LFC fan has to believe this now even if it seemed ludicrous in preseason.

I think the simplest explanation, and the one that we KNOW is true, is the midfield is a broken dysfunctional mess and as long as that is broken the whole team will be broken. And then there are a few players way below their standards right now.

[Dave McCoy]

I think the simplest explanation, and the one that we KNOW is true, is the midfield is a broken dysfunctional mess and as long as that is broken the whole team will be broken. And then there are a few players way below their standards right now.

Nobody ran more than 10km yesterday which is crazy. It's not just a few players, it's seemingly all of them.

[Suareznumber7]

I think the simplest explanation, and the one that we KNOW is true, is the midfield is a broken dysfunctional mess and as long as that is broken the whole team will be broken. And then there are a few players way below their standards right now.

It’s the same midfield that almost won 4 trophies last year.  They don’t become dysfunctional in a matter of months.  The problem with the midfield is the injuries. 

[Haggis36]

It’s the same midfield that almost won 4 trophies last year.  They don’t become dysfunctional in a matter of months.  The problem with the midfield is the injuries.

Dunno, this was a midfield that only won 46% of the league games Thiago didn't feature in last year. If you're that dependent on a single player, I'm not sure that the "unit" is exactly fully functional.

[Suareznumber7]

Dunno, this was a midfield that only won 46% of the league games Thiago didn't feature in last year. If you're that dependent on a single player, I'm not sure that the "unit" is exactly fully functional.

Is Thiago not part of the midfield?  You can't just take out a player to make a point to fit your narrative. 

[Lochgelly Violet]

Is Thiago not part of the midfield?  You can't just take out a player to make a point to fit your narrative. 

Yes you can - comparing the performance of the midfield with Thiago to the midfield without him is perfectly valid. It shows that we are a much better team with him playing. He misses a lot of games. The midfield without him hasn't really been fit for purpose for two years. This chicken has been coming home to roost slowly and obviously for some time now, like sir Lancelot storming that castle in the Holy Grail.

[Jack_Bauer]

Personally, Liverpool getting bought by some oil prince would be the end. Titles are not that important.

I'd be binning it off if this happened. I've already more or less binned most football off given the current football climate. But us becoming some sports washing vehicle and selling our soul like Chelsea, City and Newcastle have I want no part of. Though I'm sure there are casuals who love the idea of having essentially an unlimited chequebook.

[Haggis36]

Is Thiago not part of the midfield?  You can't just take out a player to make a point to fit your narrative.

Sure. He is not the whole of it though is he? You can't just ignore how much poorer we look when he doesn't play to make your own point. If it works well when he plays but not so much when he doesn't, does that not suggest an element of dysfunction? After all the midfield is three players, not one.

I mean you're not wrong that injuries are an issue, but mainly we're talking about the injury-proneness of Thiago. Yes, I do think we'd be playing better right now if we didn't have so many injuries across the squad but put it this way - if the entire rest of our midfield were fit but Thiago missed the rest of the season, I think there is a zero percent chance we challenge for the league. People said as much last season in the run-in, so this isn't a new concept. And to me, that suggests that there are more fundamental issues with the midfield as a unit than just "oh we have too many players out right now".

[rushyman]

Without wishing to sound insensitive of course, the now enforced break if it takes us to the international break is going to be extremely helpful to us at this moment in time

[Knight]

It’s the same midfield that almost won 4 trophies last year.  They don’t become dysfunctional in a matter of months.  The problem with the midfield is the injuries.

And how injury prone they are as a group is part of the dysfunction. Plus, there’s the Thiago factor as has already been rightly mentioned. Plus, and as people have said, we’re now the other side of almost winning everything, that happened last season. The players are all a year older now from the beginnng of last season. For some of the midfielders their race is run. It’s possible Keita is out in the cold. Some have one foot out the door. Henderson’s poor form is no longer poor form, it’s decline. Milner was already playing games he shouldn’t have last season, he still is.

And then there’s the very fact that we’re just months out from almost winning everything and yet we can barely win a game. Things can change very quickly and it’s happened to our midfield. What were occasional worrying signs when it came to our midfield last season has become a full blown crisis, in multiple ways.

[Knight]

Nobody ran more than 10km yesterday which is crazy. It's not just a few players, it's seemingly all of them.

I’m sure this is right and there are issues with how much we’re running. That said, can you give some context to this? What would we have done in CL away games at the group stage last year? Which players would you expect to run the most?

A lack of athleticism and ‘legs’ from our midfield is, of course, one of the major problems, so I’m not surprised that we’re running so much less. Obviously it’s a concern everywhere else but given how we play it’s a colossal concern if it’s happening in midfield. They’ve traditionally be the runners of the team.

[Guz-kop]

Yeah, damn him for putting us in this mess eh 

Again, contracts - you can’t ‘flog off players’ who are contracted unless they agree to it. 

Sure, if it makes you feel better have a dig at him, Michael Edwards, Julain Ward and whoever else deals with contracts for giving Milner a new 1 year deal, and for giving Ox a new deal when he was hurt. But honestly that there is prime level cryarsery written after the fact. Most here where more than happy for these contracts to be given out at the time - in fact loving the loyalty to this team. So easy for us to say different now though isn’t it.

Is he loyal? Yes, to players who deserve loyalty. To a fault? Not sure about that. Not a huge amount of evidence to support that. Maybe the Henderson contract extension being to long for many, is an example, if that counts.

It also doesn't hold true. Since the title season we've bought an entire new front 3, replaced Gini with Thiago and bought in Konate. That's 5 potential first team players plus two back up full backs and two promising youngsters with Carvalho and Harvey. The midfield problems are disproportionately affecting us and I think a degree of stubbornness (from the collective recruitment policy) has massively hampered us. But I just don't get this idea that we've deliberately sat on our hands after the league win. If (if) we buy 2 starting midfielders next summer we'll have bought 7 potential starters in 3 seasons plus 4 back up squad players. Before 2004 (abramovich money) did Ferguson or Wenger do things quicker? Genuine question?

[killer-heels]

Could be 3 weeks off for the side. Great for getting injured players back and for Klopp and the coaches to re-invent the side.

[Avens]

Interesting to see the ‘players were overworked in pre-season’ narrative. A poster was lambasted for asking whether our pre season conditioning was right. Now it’s become almost the accepted explanation for this train wreck. How quickly things change.

Aren't you the one that thinks it's strange for posters to remember what other posters have said in the past?

As it happens, I kind of agree that it now appears pre-season prep wasn't ideal. I think there's a fundamental issue with the fact that our system requires such high energy and right now the boys don't seem to have that energy. Klopp might need to dip into some sort of pragmatism reserve to change the system a touch for now - I think he made a mistake by thinking we'd be able to go again at the same intensity. I also think I wouldn't want anyone else in the world in charge of trying to turn a dodgy (not disastrous) start to the season.

[Eeyore]

So actual facts mean nothing to your agenda. Money was spent and whether you deemed it enough or not is immaterial. Pretty sure there are examples on this current squad where that amount of money would have been sufficient. Maybe sports isn't for you? Plenty of other hobbies out there where you can just make up whatever you want.

You have just plucked a figure out of the air regarding how much you think Hendo will be earning and then are trying to lecture people regarding facts . Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. 

The point is that buying players requires money upfront. Unless you are suggesting that clubs will give us a player for free and we can pay them in 3 years time with the money we have saved by not paying Hendo.

The problem has been a lack of forward planning has meant that we are constantly trying to fix issues that should have already been fixed. It has been ridculous how many players have been allowed to run down their contracts and then either leave for free or get huge new deals because the club are in such a poor negotiating position.

That is the problem with a sell to buy policy, you are always playing catch up.

[Knight]

Aren't you the one that thinks it's strange for posters to remember what other posters have said in the past?

As it happens, I kind of agree that it now appears pre-season prep wasn't ideal. I think there's a fundamental issue with the fact that our system requires such high energy and right now the boys don't seem to have that energy. Klopp might need to dip into some sort of pragmatism reserve to change the system a touch for now - I think he made a mistake by thinking we'd be able to go again at the same intensity. I also think I wouldn't want anyone else in the world in charge of trying to turn a dodgy (not disastrous) start to the season.

I think going back and finding 'stupid' posts people have made in the past and bringing quotes out in unrelated discussions to make them look silly, is a poor way of engaging on a forum yes. This is not that. Quite clearly.

[Fromola]

Without wishing to sound insensitive of course, the now enforced break if it takes us to the international break is going to be extremely helpful to us at this moment in time

Also, as you've alluded to in another thread, it would avoid the circus that would surround it if we did play.

I've said from the start of the season we look like we just need to get to the World Cup by hook or crook and reset, so a few weeks now would help and might be that reset.

[DelTrotter]

Games getting called off while Thiago is fit is never a good thing.

[El Lobo]

Considering how many players seem to get injured during training, we'll probably be playing Alisson up front next game.

[Original]

Is Thiago not part of the midfield?  You can't just take out a player to make a point to fit your narrative. 

Of course you can