Author Topic: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris  (Read 183063 times)

Offline Max_powers

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1920 on: January 22, 2015, 07:56:38 pm »


Is it? Is it really a slippery slope? Because there have been cartoon's mocking Christianity for long fucking time that hasn't devolved in some sort of violence against christians. At the end of the day Islam is an idea, not a race, not an underclass, not a group of people. Its in same boat as Nhilism, Conservatism, Nazism, Liberalism, Belief in Alien abductions etc. Should  we ban mockery of those idea's as well? Just to be respectful to everyone. Should we stop doing satire at all in the fear that in devolves into some sort of violent hate campaign.   

Offline LondonRapLondon

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1921 on: January 22, 2015, 08:09:08 pm »
Remind me: what were the cartoons drawn by the people who were murdered in the supermarket?

I think you misunderstood my points. I never spoke about an attack on a supermarket. Thanks.

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1922 on: January 22, 2015, 08:15:56 pm »
What I was saying is it isn't a bad thing to be tolerant of others, even if you hold different views, whether you are religious or atheist. I have no problem with swapping tolerant with respectful if that helps you.

Somebody should tell that to the religious people around the world that spread their homophobia, sexism and general bigotry then
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Offline electricghost

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1923 on: January 22, 2015, 08:36:55 pm »
What I was saying is it isn't a bad thing to be tolerant of others, even if you hold different views, whether you are religious or atheist. I have no problem with swapping tolerant with respectful if that helps you.

Well as you yourself demonstrated it depends what the religious belief actually is.

I am sure you don't have respect for the religious views that women are inferior, that gay people are disordered, and or deserve to die, or have respect for religious texts that condone slavery or the raping of slaves ect.

A lot of religious ideas are harmful, and should be absolutely disrespected by those that value humanistic values.


“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
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Offline Card Cheat

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1924 on: January 22, 2015, 09:09:05 pm »
Lastly, I'm not Charlie Hebdo. I'd rather be Lassana (the Muslim African lad who saved lives in Paris) or Ahmed (the Muslim Arab policeman who was gunned down protecting French people). These people had respect, Charlie Hebdo did not have respect as he was trolling an underclass and cementing segregation

Charlie Hebdo were mocking Islam. The presence in France of people of differing ethnicities who identify themselves as 'Muslim', poor or otherwise, should not prevent that.

Muslims are not an underclass either, that would imply that every single Muslim in France lives in abject and irredeemable poverty, possibly due to their own fecklessness. It's quite a right wing concept. You're far more likely to find a genuine 'Muslim underclass' in Muslim majority countries.

Offline electricghost

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1925 on: January 22, 2015, 09:13:57 pm »
You're far more likely to find a genuine 'Muslim underclass' in Muslim majority countries.

They are called women
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Offline GreatEx

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1926 on: January 22, 2015, 09:18:31 pm »
Mocking is a facet of Freedom of Speech which is selective in this country and in France - the common theme being that the underclass in those countries (Muslims and to an increasing degree, immigrants) are considered fair game. Somebody can deny the Armenian Genocide and play down the numbers massacred by the French in North Africa (both happens) yet cannot deny or play down the Holocaust. Which sets alarm bells ringing as it's inconsistent to an inexplicable level.

Are you suggesting that the French exclusively target the disadvantaged with their speech? If we're talking about CH, they constantly attacked those in power - the government, far-right leaders, the Catholic hierarchy. Nobody can seriously suggest they would have attacked Islam any less ferociously if Muslims happened to be the wealthiest and most successful demographic in France (unless of course they had used that power to illegalise CH). So I think you're misguided to suggest that the UK or French press in general attack the underclasses specifically. Well, maybe the Daily Mail.

On the Holocaust, you're absolutely correct that there is a logical inconsistency in the way the law is applied. I can understand it, given that the Holocaust is a gaping wound in the European psyche, whose true horror needs to be remembered lest Europe go down that awful path again. But I personally disagree in criminalising Holocaust denial - we should be confident enough to discredit such viewpoints without suppressing them.

Quote
What is there really to stop the French from allowing racist cartoons in the future as this current support of the anti-religion bigot Charlie Hebdo has set a precedent in (mis)using caricatures of races. They have already featured a pic of somebody from my race as a monkey.

I need to ask you directly - have you learned the context of that monkey cartoon? Do you understand its true intention? I ask this because you keep bringing it up as a clear insinuation that CH is racist when they are the polar opposite.

Quote
The point here is, if 'freedom to insult' is being conflated as freedom to mock and demean then what is there to stop a bigot of a different kind to try and push the envelope and depict us as zoo animals and mock the Holocaust? Nothing, if the nation is consistent with its policy freedom to mock.

Wrong, because the UK, France and others have laws against hate speech including racism. You conflate religion and race so you don't see where the line is drawn, but it is clearly there.

Quote
Lastly, I'm not Charlie Hebdo. I'd rather be Lassana (the Muslim African lad who saved lives in Paris) or Ahmed (the Muslim Arab policeman who was gunned down protecting French people). 

Or a Jew, right?

Quote
And, who in the world is the 1000's of Nigerians massacred or the 1,000's of brown kids in Iraq/Afhganistan/Yemen who were at the end of phosphorous bombings and/or drone strikes by gangs ran by extremists such as Obama, Cameron, Blair and Bush.

What's that got to do with the topic at hand, and who here supports these men's actions?

Look, I don't mean to denigrate your feelings on racism, but I feel you make a number of false assumptions in turning a discussion on political or religious satire into a discussion on racism and discrimination against the poor and disadvantaged. Naturally there has been a lot of focus on this tiny magazine in the past few weeks and many have been whipped up into a frenzy by ignorant and superficial misinterpretation of its work. Over time, more informed articles have been produced (many available on this forum) that explain the cartoons, but the misinformation has already spread far and wide because it's quicker and easier to digest. It's immensely frustrating, and sullies the memory of the dead.

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1927 on: January 22, 2015, 09:22:06 pm »
No, you're right. I don't have respect for any of those views. And I believe in secular society and humanistic values. And as long as we're operating within that, then tolerance/respect for others who have different views.
Do they respect our views, values?
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1928 on: January 22, 2015, 09:28:04 pm »
Who is they? And we for that matter?
The 'they' would be the lads and lasses that chop little babies heads off, throw people off towers for being gay, butcher cartoonists for lampooning their 'prophet'. The 'we' are the 'infidels'.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline KiNki

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1929 on: January 22, 2015, 09:29:44 pm »
The bible was pretty ok with slavery. 

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life". - Leviticus 25:44

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property." - Exodus Chapter 21:20

"Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory, nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity." - Titus 2:9

Can we criticise this aspect of the bible? the christians who took it as gospel?   Or should we respect their views?  respect their desire to live their lives according to the book?

Offline electricghost

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1930 on: January 22, 2015, 09:46:00 pm »
Anyone practising slavery in today's society should be met with the full force of law:

Criticize away. Ridicule. Scorn. Feel superior.

But when you're finished, there will still be people around with other beliefs than you, even if they are dumb beliefs. That's all I'm saying.

Should dumb beliefs be respected ?

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Offline Chakan

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1931 on: January 22, 2015, 09:48:35 pm »
Should dumb beliefs be respected ?

Curious what people define as "Dumb Beliefs"

Offline KiNki

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1932 on: January 22, 2015, 09:48:59 pm »
Hmm thats all well and good for people living in parts of the world that signed up to human rights, however, sharia law is the full force of the law in large parts of the middle east and africa, they too are pretty down with slavey, well female slavery as the chibok girls might testify too.  If we ever bothered to find them.

Can we question that law, based on that book, which isn't well known for allowing freedom of discussion, sharing ideas? Or do we respect their view, their belief its ok to take female slaves, because the book says so?

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1933 on: January 22, 2015, 09:49:48 pm »
Anyone practising slavery in today's society should be met with the full force of law:

Criticize away. Ridicule. Scorn. Feel superior.

But when you're finished, there will still be people around with other beliefs than you, even if they are dumb beliefs. That's all I'm saying.

You think satire and mockery have no effect?

Offline electricghost

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1934 on: January 22, 2015, 09:57:32 pm »
What's the best way of changing a belief you think is dumb?

Not respecting it to start with, then you can either use reasoned argument or mockery and satire, or both.
Both can be very effective.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1935 on: January 22, 2015, 09:57:37 pm »
Curious what people define as "Dumb Beliefs"
Use your own reason and common sense:

Slavery - Owning fellow human beings... doesn't sound right, does it?
Killing homosexuals - I'm not gay. Nothing to do with me at all
Killing people for changing their beliefs - Sounds a bit insecure

And so on

Offline electricghost

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1936 on: January 22, 2015, 10:12:04 pm »
I have to go to work now. Which of mockery, satire or reasoned argument is most effective?

I have no idea, I haven't done any studies have you ?

I know that people who are in the business of discussing religious matters say that they have lots of feedback from now atheists who say that mockery played a huge part in their moving away from religion
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1937 on: January 22, 2015, 10:16:47 pm »
I have to go to work now. Which of mockery, satire or reasoned argument is most effective?
We are talking about jihadists here.

People who are so infatuated in their belief, so certain that they are not wrong, so certain they are going to die a glorious death....

Reasoned argument hasn't worked with them, satire is a way of crystallising the absurdity of their views.
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1938 on: January 22, 2015, 10:17:04 pm »
I have to go to work now. Which of mockery, satire or reasoned argument is most effective?
Depends on the situation. Reasoned argument will be most effective with entities open to reason. Satire in situations where reasoned argument proves ineffective. Mockery for the rest.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline electricghost

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1939 on: January 22, 2015, 10:18:11 pm »
You have no idea, but suspect mockery works better than reasoned argument. Ok...

Ironic that I'm ending with mockery, I suppose.

Did I say that it worked better ?  You are entirely too stupid to talk to.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1940 on: January 22, 2015, 10:21:35 pm »
Depends on the situation. Reasoned argument will be most effective with entities open to reason. Satire in situations where reasoned argument proves ineffective. Mockery for the rest.
The first two require a level of engagement to be effective. Mockery is the only option for Jihadists. It's not to engage them but to ridicule them for the benefit of everyone else.

Offline KiNki

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1941 on: January 23, 2015, 12:52:53 am »
it is perhaps the last resort to engage when reasoned argument has failed.   You nibbled at the hook.   You engaged. 

Nobody likes being the butt of the joke or likes criticism. 

Evidently. 

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1942 on: January 23, 2015, 01:00:48 am »
The reaction from some sections of society are entirely predictable and tragic. I know which side of the fence I sit on. When I say Je Suis Charlie, I meant it. I wonder how many people that say 'Je Suis Charlie but' actually meant the first bit. You know what they say, in any sentence that has a 'but' one can safely disregard anything before the said 'but'.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1943 on: January 23, 2015, 01:42:35 am »
The reaction from some sections of society are entirely predictable and tragic. I know which side of the fence I sit on. When I say Je Suis Charlie, I meant it. I wonder how many people that say 'Je Suis Charlie but' actually meant the first bit. You know what they say, in any sentence that has a 'but' one can safely disregard anything before the said 'but'.

Apart from Sir Mixalot's immortal sentence, "I like big butts and I cannot lie."
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1944 on: January 23, 2015, 01:45:52 am »
Apart from Sir Mixalot's immortal sentence, "I like big butts and I cannot lie."

;D

That sounds like something he said to a priest in a confession.
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline KiNki

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1945 on: January 23, 2015, 02:46:51 am »
I didn't suggest the failure was on electrics part.

Tolerance of religious intolerance and violence?

Yes its a bad idea.





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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1946 on: January 23, 2015, 03:04:20 am »
We seperated church from state.  A good idea.
State made it possible to practice or not practice religion free from persecution.  A good idea.
State made it possible to criticise religious and non religious ideas.  A good idea.

Tolerance of religious intolerance - a bad idea
Tolerance of fascism - a bad idea
tolerance of sexism - a bad idea
tolerance of racism - a bad idea
tolerance of homophobia - a bad idea.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1947 on: January 23, 2015, 03:29:52 am »
jesus wept. 

Vous ne comprenez pas.

Its about questioning an idea.   

Person a puts forward a theory.  Lets call it the world is flat theory.  Some people believe the theory and have faith in it and will go as far as not sailing ship because they fear falling off the edge of the planet. Some people dismiss the theory and mock it and go and discover america. 
 

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1948 on: January 23, 2015, 03:51:06 am »
I've read the tea leaves, they are suggesting that you are trying to call people mocking religious viewpoints as some sort of racists here to exterminate religion entirely.  Like a fascist John Lennon.   

What alot of us have tried to do is engage you in discussion and explain that it is religious idea's are being mocked.  The prophet cant be drawn or depicted is an idea.  Killing people who do depict the prophet is another idea.

Its an idea to be questioned.

Some people have gone to the lengths of adding up the ages of all the people in the bible and peg the age of the earth as 1200 years old.  Its an idea, a theory, based on faith.  Some people agree with this idea, some of faith, some not of any faith, have mocked the idea cos their are these things called dinosaur bones.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1949 on: January 23, 2015, 03:51:16 am »
Agree about separation of church and state.

Agree about all the others.

How about tolerance of normal, law-abiding people's belief in Gods?

If your solution is to scorn and mock and feel superior to people with different beliefs, I genuinely don't think you're much different from others who look down on people with other beliefs.

No one has not tolerated the rights of anyone to believe in whatever here though have they ?

At what point does scorn and mocking become intolerance ? Intolerance would be when you kill someone or disenfranchise someone based on their beliefs. A bit of mockery isn't intolerance. And again, it is the idea that is being mocked not the person that holds it. It's playing the ball and not the man. To make it out to be an issue of intolerance is to deal in pointless platitudes.
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1950 on: January 23, 2015, 05:46:17 am »
That's my point.

Once again, the only person resorting to insults in this discussion is atheist.

Is it really so offensive to atheists to suggest tolerance isn't a bad idea?

Atheists aren't a homogenous species.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1951 on: January 23, 2015, 06:09:09 am »
That's my point.

Once again, the only person resorting to insults in this discussion is atheist.

Is it really so offensive to atheists to suggest tolerance isn't a bad idea?

New set of emails sent to Dawkins

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/gW7607YiBso&amp;x-yt-ts=1421828030&amp;x-yt-cl=84411374" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/gW7607YiBso&amp;x-yt-ts=1421828030&amp;x-yt-cl=84411374</a>
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1952 on: January 23, 2015, 06:59:21 am »
Agree about separation of church and state.

Agree about all the others.

How about tolerance of normal, law-abiding people's belief in Gods?

If your solution is to scorn and mock and feel superior to people with different beliefs, I genuinely don't think you're much different from others who look down on people with other beliefs.
Tolerance of differing religions is very different from not scorning and mocking their concepts.

To suggest that atheists are particularly intolerant is somewhat odd to me.

I don't know any atheist who thinks we should stop people practising their religion.
However, religions are all too happy to say that we shouldn't tolerate people with whom they don't agree.

I know the point you are trying to make.  That it doesn't help when people's ideas are mocked or satirised. However, I'm not sure where this routinely happens. People question people's ideas and beliefs, this isn't usually mocking, this is genuinely trying to show the illogicality of what they are saying.

Now, I can go to town on Saturday and get shouted at by Christians in the street and told I'm going to hell and that I'm a sodomite (this is to random strangers in the street). I can walk past other people shouting at me about western corruption and collecting money for people in the Middle East (ISL and Hamas).
Do I walk past atheists doing this? I don't
Atheists have written a few books and tried to make constructive arguments in books.  Occasionally they are arguing their point on a TV show.
No one is murdered, no one tries to stop anyone else's freedom of speech.  Yet their are people on this website who are spat at, and openly insulted in the street by the religious medley for their race or sexuality.

Now, 50 or 60 years before, this was banned.  But, it was ok to sterilise people for being gay, imprison people for blasphemy. In this country.

I think you are suggesting good manners really, but it's not the atheists who are showing the poor manners. 

What you suggest would require laws, and those laws would be utterly unworkable and utterly utterly unjust.

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Offline macca888

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1953 on: January 23, 2015, 08:28:43 am »
Agree about separation of church and state.

Agree about all the others.

How about tolerance of normal, law-abiding people's belief in Gods?

If your solution is to scorn and mock and feel superior to people with different beliefs, I genuinely don't think you're much different from others who look down on people with other beliefs.

You have to remember that this is an open forum where we're free to air our views until our hearts are content. Personal experience now, but I'll take the piss out of anyone for anything at all on RAWK, much the way I would do if I was with my mates in the pub. If that's about what they think about a certain player, or about God, I don't discriminate.

Do you genuinely believe though that any atheist who has responded to you would scorn or mock their close circle of family and friends for their beliefs? I can't speak for all of them, but they all seem like an intelligent, reasoned and articulated bunch, when you remove me from the equation. In fact, I'm certain a couple of people have actually said that they've gone out of their way to not do that. I can't obviously speak for everyone, but I know that Corkboy mentioned his friends and he also mentioned, if I remember rightly, that his wife had some sort of belief system, but I can't be arsed searching for that post (apologies to Mrs C if I've got that wrong).

I'm from  family of devout Catholics, who all think it's fine to keep asking me to go to Church because of their fear for my eternal damnation, yet I have never once mocked, scorned or disrespected their beliefs to them. And yet strangely, I had a grandmother who beat the shit out of me as a child for having the audacity to go to the local C of E Sunday school once because they were just the wrong type of Christians. I revel in the irony that the "good living" (which basically meant to that generation, someone who went to church regularly, including but not limited to, drunks, thieves, wife beaters and child abusers) old twat who preached so often about burning in hell fire is probably not, even though she would have been fully deserving of a seat at that particular hearth based on her own belief system. My dad isn't arsed as much but gives me that rolled eyed shrugged shoulder expression whenever I tell him that God isn't for me; my mum has that "mum" concern that I'm going to get into some sort of trouble, like when I first left home to go to University and she assumed that without her protection I'd be dead within a week from either malnutrition or I'd be run over while wearing dirty underwear, which she believed was enough to prevent the medical profession from administering life-saving treatment; and more extended family seem to revel in the fact that the burning embers of hell have got more chance of seeing me than they have of warming the toes of a paedophile priest. And yet, as much as I know that reason wouldn't work with any of these people, there is no way on earth I would mock them for their beliefs, as intolerant as those beliefs may be.

As others have alluded to, atheists are not some sort of homogenous species or sect, but based on circumstances of myself and friends, I would be willing to wager that more atheists here have had people from various religions disrespecting their decision no to have beliefs and trying to convert them to their cause than the opposite. The worst part is that the religious in these situations in my experience have always resorted to scare tactics as their last ditch argument, that of burning in hell. No respect, no tolerance, no mockery, no satire, Just outright fucking scaremongering. While it is many steps removed from the cold blooded murderers at Charlie Hebdo. the Hypercacher kosher supermarket, and the 13 kids watching football, it's still on the same fucking staircase. Mockery, scorn and even lack of respect just simply are not.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1954 on: January 23, 2015, 09:16:44 am »
I'll give you another anecdote. My sister was killed in a car accident 25 years ago. My close family are all atheists, parents and brothers all.

My Mum and Dad decided to have a church funeral. For a number of reasons: the local church is in the heart of our local area where we all grew up and where all our friends are; it is a beautiful building with great acoustics and she was a talented musician - some of her friends played at the funeral; and the funeral service is a social tradition, but the most important reason was that Kate had many friends, especially older family friends, who are devout Christians.

For me and my family the funeral was about a celebration of a life cut short and a moment to say goodbye and to start to grieve. We could have had a humanist funeral, I've been to a few recently and they can be beautiful experiences with no hint of god or religion, but my parents realised that our religious friends needed that other, religious element for their comfort.

Having said that, we did it on our own terms. We were happy for the vicar to give a sermon but when he came to the house and started telling my parent's that Kate's death was not in vain he was politely asked to leave.

It was a beautiful service with a mixture of religious texts and secular texts - my Dad's reading was from Shakespeare, and someone read from Dylan Thomas - and the music was fantastic.

It pisses me off when people say 'atheists are...' or even 'militant atheists or indignant atheists are...' Atheists for the most part just get on with their lives and mind their own business.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 09:18:40 am by Alan_X »
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Offline Magix

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1955 on: January 23, 2015, 09:25:55 am »
When we speak of tolerance, what greater display of tolerance is there than giving other people the freedom to practise their religion and beliefs. If you want to see real intolerance, make your way to any of the Muslim-majority countries and see how minorities are treated.

Religious people dealing with scorn and derision -- first-world problems.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 09:31:09 am by Magix »

Offline macca888

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1956 on: January 23, 2015, 09:49:23 am »
I'll give you another anecdote. My sister was killed in a car accident 25 years ago. My close family are all atheists, parents and brothers all.

My Mum and Dad decided to have a church funeral. For a number of reasons: the local church is in the heart of our local area where we all grew up and where all our friends are; it is a beautiful building with great acoustics and she was a talented musician - some of her friends played at the funeral; and the funeral service is a social tradition, but the most important reason was that Kate had many friends, especially older family friends, who are devout Christians.

For me and my family the funeral was about a celebration of a life cut short and a moment to say goodbye and to start to grieve. We could have had a humanist funeral, I've been to a few recently and they can be beautiful experiences with no hint of god or religion, but my parents realised that our religious friends needed that other, religious element for their comfort.

Having said that, we did it on our own terms. We were happy for the vicar to give a sermon but when he came to the house and started telling my parent's that Kate's death was not in vain he was politely asked to leave.

It was a beautiful service with a mixture of religious texts and secular texts - my Dad's reading was from Shakespeare, and someone read from Dylan Thomas - and the music was fantastic.

It pisses me off when people say 'atheists are...' or even 'militant atheists or indignant atheists are...' Atheists for the most part just get on with their lives and mind their own business.


Thanks for sharing that Alan. Sorry for your loss, as it's clear you thought a great deal about your sister. But what a wonderful thing for your family to set aside their own lack of belief to help comfort those who needed a spiritual crutch. It's really moving and inspirational. That's real love and compassion, and they didn't need the perceived threat of an imaginary God's moral values to feel that for other people.


On a serious note, as a result of that anecdote, I think I need to let my wife know that if anything happened to me before my mum and dad died, and that's a real enough possibility, I'd need a funeral in my boyhood parish for the very reason that it would probably be more upsetting for them to live the rest of their lives thinking that my soul was bound for eternal damnation. Presumably it wouldn't upset Mrs Macca or the kids any more than they already were. So thank you for that, and I genuinely do mean that, Alan.


On a more hypocritical note, I was married in my local Catholic church and all my lads were baptised there, because I'm a shitbag and terrified of my 4 feet 11 inch short arse lunatic Scotty Road Irish mother. If I'd tried to do a registry office job, it would have been One Wedding and a Funeral, but John Hannah would not have been invited to read the eulogy.   ;D
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1957 on: January 23, 2015, 09:49:35 am »
Am i correct in thinking that one of the ten commandments says something about not making an image of God?
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Offline macca888

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1958 on: January 23, 2015, 10:04:07 am »
Am i correct in thinking that one of the ten commandments says something about not making an image of God?

It's the 2nd Commandment, Carl:


You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."

That's most Catholics and Bruno Brookes fucked then, if you interpreted it absolutely literally.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1959 on: January 23, 2015, 10:05:45 am »
So, did the producers of Bruce Almighty get gunned down? Wasnt he ' God ' supposedly?
"Woe to you, Oh Earth and Sea, for the Devil sends the beast with wrath, because he knows the time is short...Let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the beast for it is a human number, its number is Six hundred and sixty six."