Author Topic: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris  (Read 183090 times)

Offline macca888

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1880 on: January 21, 2015, 05:01:23 pm »
I'm hurt when people mock my preference for tarts.


So was I when my dad said the same thing to me in my youth. Thankfully for him, I married a nice Catholic girl.
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Offline macca888

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1881 on: January 21, 2015, 05:04:46 pm »
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Offline electricghost

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1882 on: January 21, 2015, 05:19:33 pm »
Christ on a bike. Charlie Hebdo is not racist. It mocks racists.

Indeed

http://www.understandingcharliehebdo.com/

With regard to the cover that some have deemed to be racist...


Translation

“RACIST BLUE UNION”
Symbols

    The font chosen (serif) is reminiscent of traditional right-wing political posters. Left-wing and communist posters in France usually use a sans-serif font. This is the first hint that the cartoon is mocking a right-wing element.
    The blue and red flame logo on the bottom-left is the logo of the Front National, a far-right political party in France.
    The person depicted is Justice Minister Christiane Taubira, drawn as a monkey. This is referencing various occasions of far-right activists depicting Taubira as a monkey (online sharing of photoshops, sound imitations, calling out, etc.).
    The title is a play on words of Marine Le Pen's slogan “Rassemblement Bleu Marine” (Navy blue Union).

Satire

The cartoon was published after a National Front politician Facebook-shared a photoshop of Justice Taubira, drawn as a monkey, and then said on French television the she should be “in a tree swinging from the branches rather than in government” [Le Monde] (she was later sentenced to 9 months of prison). The cartoon is styled as a political poster, calling on all far-right “Marine” racists to unify, under this racist imagery they have chosen. Ultimately, the cartoon is criticising the far-right's appeal to racism to gain supporters.




The cartoon was drawn by Charb. He participated in anti-racism activities, and notably illustrated the poster (below) for MRAP (Movement Against Racism and for Friendship between Peoples), an anti-racist NGO.



Translation:
Let's break the silence!
[speech-bubble] I would hire you, but I don't like the colour of ... euh ... your tie!
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
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Offline Iska

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1883 on: January 21, 2015, 06:51:55 pm »
Why stop at religious faith? Why not outlaw the mockery of political faith too?
That's the key point, isn't it?  Religion isn't just akin to politics in terms of deciding how people live their lives - in many places religion is politics.  That's why freedom of speech is so important; in fact that's where the idea comes from, hence e.g. the cartoon of Galileo up there.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1884 on: January 21, 2015, 07:26:44 pm »
All my black and other ethnic mates have all expressed the idea that this anti-religion bigotry in the form of cartoons is actually another slippery slope to a stage for racism.

<<snip>

I really think you are wrong. There is still a long way to go and it is plain for anyone to see that there is still discrimination on the basis of race in Europe and other western countries but things are generally better than they were even fifty years ago. I don't know how old you are but I grew up through the sixties and seventies and the difference now from those days is enormous. You're a student of black history I think so you must be aware of that. This sort of sign was common in England in living memory but is unthinkable now.



And this photo by Elliot Erwitt was taken in the US in 1950:



I remember the I have a dream speech and it has been there as a touchstone and an ideal for what the world should be. I remember JFK, Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King being assassinated. I agree wholeheartedly with this:

Quote
I genuinely believe in the dream of a society where children of every race are equal. MLK

As a site we take racism and homophobia seriously and will ban people who engage in either.

We take the same view on religion when people use it to express bigotry and hatred against individuals or groups of people. That's why there are no Celtic vs Rangers threads on here - the petty, tit-for-tat bigotry is offensive on those terms. But pointing out that religion is wrong or finding flaws in religious texts is different. That's an intellectual and philosophical debate and the moment anyone says I can't have that debate because someone, somewhere, anywhere, is offended I have problems.

I shouldn't insult someone but I should be free to insult their God. Because if I am wrong their God can punish me when I'm dead. It's no business of the living.

What is the business of the living are the things that religions (and governments of course) do, and we have to be free to comment on that.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 07:31:56 pm by Alan_X »
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Offline GreatEx

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1885 on: January 21, 2015, 08:57:41 pm »
I'm a nihilist so I believe (or would if I believed in anything) anyone who mocks nothing, and by extension those who don't mock anything, should be hanged.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1886 on: January 21, 2015, 09:10:17 pm »
I'm a nihilist so I believe (or would if I believed in anything) anyone who mocks nothing, and by extension those who don't mock anything, should be hanged.

I'm with you. Fuck all those non mocking c*nts.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1887 on: January 21, 2015, 09:29:42 pm »
I'm a nihilist so I believe (or would if I believed in anything) anyone who mocks nothing, and by extension those who don't mock anything, should be hanged.
I'm a PhilNealist. I get mocked.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1888 on: January 21, 2015, 09:35:19 pm »
I shouldn't insult someone but I should be free to insult their God. Because if I am wrong their God can punish me when I'm dead. It's no business of the living.
Problem is which one will save you from all the others

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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1889 on: January 21, 2015, 09:48:31 pm »
I'm with you. Fuck all those non mocking c*nts.
Isis, it could argued, that their barbarism, is a form of macarbre pisstaking, in action. Crucifixions, throwing people off towers, beheading babies. Even the Game of Thrones would have a hard time making some of the shit they do up. We mock at the level of ideas, behind words and cartoons, they mock with extreme violence in the real world, an 'outdoorsy' derision. Mockery in itself is not some universal good. C*nts like Isis can also mock.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 01:11:14 am by Twelfth Man »
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1890 on: January 21, 2015, 10:15:16 pm »
I really think you are wrong.

*snip*

Good post Alan_X, I agree that insitutionally our society has progressed greatly in the last couple of generations in reducing racism, and you've cited some good examples.

However, I wouldnt be so quick to dismiss LondonRapLondon as being wrong in fearing that the current climate is leading to a slippery slope towards racism. We'll hopefully never go back to the days of seperate water fountains, etc, but dont underestimate the impact the rise of the far right is having on racial tensions around Europe.

Things do seem like they're getting worse compared to, say, 15 years ago. Again, I'll reiterate, I dont mean institutionally but in everyday life. The groups that are in the increase, like the EDL or Pegida may put on an anti-Muslim front, but theres a seriously unsavoury racially intolerent element to them too.

LondonRapLondon is unfortunately in a position to see this first hand (e.g. the abuse his wife gets, etc). I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his fears just because our insitutions have moved on from 40 years ago. 


« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 10:17:22 pm by Xabi Gerrard »

Offline Piggies in Blankies

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1891 on: January 21, 2015, 10:26:46 pm »
Good post Alan_X, I agree that insitutionally our society has progressed greatly in the last couple of generations in reducing racism, and you've cited some good examples.

However, I wouldnt be so quick to dismiss LondonRapLondon as being wrong in fearing that the current climate is leading to a slippery slope towards racism. We'll hopefully never go back to the days of seperate water fountains, etc, but dont underestimate the impact the rise of the far right is having on racial tensions around Europe.

Things do seem like they're getting worse compared to, say, 15 years ago. Again, I'll reiterate, I dont mean institutionally but in everyday life. The groups that are in the increase, like the EDL or Pegida may put on an anti-Muslim front, but theres a seriously unsavoury racially intolerent element to them too.

LondonRapLondon is unfortunately in a position to see this first hand (e.g. the abuse his wife gets, etc). I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his fears just because our insitutions have moved on from 40 years ago. 



I'm not sure that was quite his point.

His point was (I think) that anti religious people were close to becoming bigoted to the point of racism.

I'm not sure who he means by anti religious people (atheists who are prepared to speak out against the influence of religions in main stream society maybe?) but people using satire to highlight glaring hypocrisy in the way some religious people and religions operate isn't it.

You are right of course, the rise of the right anti Jewish, anti Muslim, anti immigrant groups is worrying but of course Charlie Hebdo was all about stopping those groups by ridiculing them.

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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1892 on: January 21, 2015, 10:42:10 pm »
I'm not sure that was quite his point.

His point was (I think) that anti religious people were close to becoming bigoted to the point of racism.

I'm not sure who he means by anti religious people (atheists who are prepared to speak out against the influence of religions in main stream society maybe?) but people using satire to highlight glaring hypocrisy in the way some religious people and religions operate isn't it.

You are right of course, the rise of the right anti Jewish, anti Muslim, anti immigrant groups is worrying but of course Charlie Hebdo was all about stopping those groups by ridiculing them.



Ah ok, maybe I did miss the point. The way I read the exchange (and having re-read it, I still think is the case) is;

*LondonRapLondon expressed concern that we're slipping towards a more racist society;
*The first half of Alan_X's post disagreed and cited some examples to counter LondonRapLondon's worries.

I was responding to that part of Alan_X's post as I dont think we should be so quick to dismiss LondonRapLondon's fears.

Apologies if I misunderstood.

Offline Piggies in Blankies

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1893 on: January 21, 2015, 10:46:09 pm »
Ah ok, maybe I did miss the point. The way I read the exchange (and having re-read it, I still think is the case) is;

*LondonRapLondon expressed concern that we're slipping towards a more racist society;
*The first half of Alan_X's post disagreed and cited some examples to counter LondonRapLondon's worries.

I was responding to that part of Alan_X's post as I dont think we should be so quick to dismiss LondonRapLondon's fears.

Apologies if I misunderstood.
I think he was saying that too...

But he seems to imply that religions should have an equal footing to races... Which I find nonsensical.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1894 on: January 21, 2015, 11:04:47 pm »
Good post Alan_X, I agree that insitutionally our society has progressed greatly in the last couple of generations in reducing racism, and you've cited some good examples.

However, I wouldnt be so quick to dismiss LondonRapLondon as being wrong in fearing that the current climate is leading to a slippery slope towards racism. We'll hopefully never go back to the days of seperate water fountains, etc, but dont underestimate the impact the rise of the far right is having on racial tensions around Europe.

Things do seem like they're getting worse compared to, say, 15 years ago. Again, I'll reiterate, I dont mean institutionally but in everyday life. The groups that are in the increase, like the EDL or Pegida may put on an anti-Muslim front, but theres a seriously unsavoury racially intolerent element to them too.

LondonRapLondon is unfortunately in a position to see this first hand (e.g. the abuse his wife gets, etc). I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his fears just because our insitutions have moved on from 40 years ago. 


I'm not dismissing his fears out of hand and it's not for me or anyone else to say what he has experienced personally or how he should react. I am saying that it's important to look at the broader sweep of history as well as our own personal experiences.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1895 on: January 21, 2015, 11:27:06 pm »
I'm not the first to mention it but the whole "people killed at a Jewish business" thing may be somewhat overlooked in all of this. I've had a cursory look at it's pretty hard to find any news about it, as in what happened, what was the motive, declared or otherwise. Anyone know better?

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1896 on: January 21, 2015, 11:42:29 pm »
I'm not the first to mention it but the whole "people killed at a Jewish business" thing may be somewhat overlooked in all of this. I've had a cursory look at it's pretty hard to find any news about it, as in what happened, what was the motive, declared or otherwise. Anyone know better?


I'm not sure what you mean?
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1897 on: January 21, 2015, 11:56:24 pm »
I'm not sure what you mean?

I mean I can't work out if there was a definite association between the two events, or a connection, or motivation. Were they coordinated?

Offline rscanderlech

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1898 on: January 22, 2015, 02:15:13 am »
I want to contribute to the discussion but I know that it will inevitably result in an entanglement into about 5 million separate arguments that will just have to end my a moderator shutting the thread - that's what happened last time I witnessed one of these threads - so I will offer the minimum that I am able to, which is links to articles that have informed my perspective. This post does NOT mean that I don't consider the attacks to a great tragedy and an abominable act, nor that I don't think that radicalism is a problem amongst the Muslim world, nor that I think that Muslims should simply wash their hands off from this: Problems within the Muslim world will only be solved by and with Muslims, and there has been a great disarray for too long in the Muslim world. (There's a particularly dangerous insecurity amongst the intellectual classes and scholars that they're not as smart and pious as past generations of scholars and that some other scholar somewhere on the planet will step up and write the books that need to be written and set up the organisations that need setting up: though this is improving recently. Indeed, I am trying to do my bit, by (hopefully) becoming a researcher in this very field.) NOR am I attacking the right to free speech per se, including religious debate or debate concerning religion. But at the same time I do not think that free speech is an absolute right, and it hurts me that the world has forgotten about responsibilities, as though only rights to speech matter and not the consequences of speech.

So there I have attempted to avoid accusations of bigotry blah blah blah etc. etc., so that i don't have to get involved in a massive debate. I come here primarily for Liverpool news and discussion! All I want is to put up a few links to generate discussion and to balance the set of information contained in this thread a little bit. You don't have to read them if you don't have to. Here are the links:

1) This is a 2013 article by a former Charlie Hebdo journalist who left the magazine on account of what he perceived as an increasing obsession with attacking Muslims and the Muslim world - not just extremists - after a new editor appeared and changed the magazine's agenda. Note, this is from 2013, not 2014, not 2015. Long, but seriously worth reading as background info on Charlie Hebdo's history.

http://www.article11.info/?Charlie-Hebdo-pas-raciste-Si-vous

2) Also, Will Self on the definition of satire, and whether free speech is 'absolute': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNbn_QeY4Dk
3) And Norman Finkelstein on the same: http://www.dailysabah.com/europe/2015/01/21/finkelstein-charlie-hebdo-is-not-satire

I will resist replying to comments that are excessively antagonistic and argumentative. There would be no point in either of us having the discussion. Otherwise, I might reply but only with short responses, because last time I got involved in one of these threads it became like a part time job for a week.

Offline Jebediah

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1899 on: January 22, 2015, 07:03:11 am »
Norman Finkelstein comparing Charlie Hebdo to Der Stürmer   :butt
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Offline Piggies in Blankies

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1900 on: January 22, 2015, 07:06:07 am »
Ok let's imagine Charlie Hebdo were racist (although I can't see any good evidence it were).....

That still leaves the murderers slaughtering Jewish people for being.... Jewish.

Where's the provocation there?
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Offline jerseyhoya

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1901 on: January 22, 2015, 07:12:58 am »
Norman Finkelstein comparing Charlie Hebdo to Der Stürmer   :butt
I know laughing is maybe inappropriate because some people probably read that and can't help but nod along, but holy fucking shit that piece is some purely distilled inanity

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1902 on: January 22, 2015, 08:53:58 am »
Finkelstein left Planet Earth years ago.
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Offline Magix

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1903 on: January 22, 2015, 09:02:10 am »
But at the same time I do not think that free speech is an absolute right, and it hurts me that the world has forgotten about responsibilities, as though only rights to speech matter and not the consequences of speech.

I don't think there's a disconnect between free speech and responsibility and consequence. Before the shootings, Charlie Hebdo was in financial trouble, usually only selling half of its small weekly print run of 60,000 copies. The consequence of its in-your-face brand of satire was it wasn't all that well received; people responded with their wallets. Sure, horrible people will use its comics to foment bigotry and hate,  just as the reasonable amongst us will discuss the merits and demerits, using pen and rhetoric, not fists and violence. Hateful people will always find something else, some other excuse, to build their hate on.

This responsibility you speak of seems to be tied in with the right (not) to offend. If anything, this stance shuts down meaningful debate, especially religious debate. Because anything negatively said can then be construed as offensive.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1904 on: January 22, 2015, 09:06:56 am »
But at the same time I do not think that free speech is an absolute right, and it hurts me that the world has forgotten about responsibilities, as though only rights to speech matter and not the consequences of speech.

I don't know anybody who thinks free speech is an ABSOLUTE right. It's a straw man argument.

I agree there are responsibilities which come with free speech. The main one is to ensure, while you're exercising your own free speech, that you don't deny the right to others. For example, Muslims (of whatever stripe) are allowed to worship freely in France and do so without fear of intimidation. That's their right. Their responsibility, while in France, is to insist that others enjoy the same right to express themselves.
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Offline macca888

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1905 on: January 22, 2015, 09:10:52 am »
I like Will Self, and while he makes some valid points, I don't agree with his key sentiments in that video though. One, he's flat out wrong when he says Charlie Hebdo should have been targeting the people in power like the French Government rather than the radical Muslims. They attacked their own government, politicians and various other political entities relentlessly, more so than any other religion or section of society, so he got that wrong. Secondly, he says that satire should only be used against the small groups of people in power as a way to make the disenfranchised masses and people oppressed by that power feel better. Absolute fucking tosh. Who then is the voice of the minority being oppressed by the majority? Satirising the various Popes' stupidity, two facedness, inconsistencies, cover-ups and downright deceit, for example, possibly didn't make many Catholics feel better, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with any cartoon that points that out. Atheists and secularists, the ones who have to tolerate religion being fecklessly afforded an almost equal footing with race, sexuality and disability, have every right to laugh at it when it is lampooned.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1906 on: January 22, 2015, 09:14:47 am »
True Macca.

Plus this. Have we to wait until Islamic Jihad get into power before we mock their stupid ideas?
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1907 on: January 22, 2015, 09:20:34 am »
True Macca.

Plus this. Have we to wait until Islamic Jihad get into power before we mock their stupid ideas?

I was actually thinking exactly that Yorky. Maybe he'd be happy if Charlie Hebdo set up a satellite office in an ISIS stronghold to put his theory to the test? I'm sure he'd be happy to guest edit that edition.   ;)
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1908 on: January 22, 2015, 09:44:05 am »
I will resist replying to comments that are excessively antagonistic and argumentative. There would be no point in either of us having the discussion. Otherwise, I might reply but only with short responses,

This is just a veiled threat: "I'll only debate if I can control the debate", which given the Finkelstein article you posted is a very narrow and slightly esoteric one at that.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1909 on: January 22, 2015, 10:09:14 am »
This is just a veiled threat: "I'll only debate if I can control the debate", which given the Finkelstein article you posted is a very narrow and slightly esoteric one at that.

To be fair to the guy, if you have an opinion that's even slightly different to the regulars in here, you'll likely get accused of saying/implying the cartoonists got what they deserved (even if you said nothing of the sort) or you'll get replies that ignore the entire point of your post but focus on one word they disagree with and twist it out of all context.

If you go through the entire thread you can probably understand why rsanderlech doesn't want to engage with all that shite. Admittedly he didn't need to tell us that from the start, but it's clearly nothing as sinister as "veiled threats" or trying to control the debate.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1910 on: January 22, 2015, 10:26:20 am »
1) This is a 2013 article by a former Charlie Hebdo journalist who left the magazine on account of what he perceived as an increasing obsession with attacking Muslims and the Muslim world - not just extremists - after a new editor appeared and changed the magazine's agenda. Note, this is from 2013, not 2014, not 2015. Long, but seriously worth reading as background info on Charlie Hebdo's history.

http://www.article11.info/?Charlie-Hebdo-pas-raciste-Si-vous

Already posted in this thread, in English.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1911 on: January 22, 2015, 10:42:59 am »
Atheists have beliefs?

I must be doing it wrong.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1912 on: January 22, 2015, 10:47:20 am »
Atheists have beliefs?

I must be doing it wrong.

Yeah, me too. I mean, there was me thinking atheism was the absence of a belief. Now I feel like a right fool.

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1913 on: January 22, 2015, 10:59:43 am »
They should be able to publish whatever they like, and if any person or group is offended by its content to the point of action, then they challenge it by legal means. That's all there is to it on that debate.

The anti-religous sentiment that runs through a lot of this debate is a separate question for me. I wouldn't mind, but some of the atheists on here can get quite offended when their beliefs are the subject of discussion.

I haven't noticed that at all. But, naturally, they have a perfect right to get offended.

It would be more worrying - not to say hypocritical - if "the atheists" started to say that atheism shouldn't be mocked or criticised. I've not seen any of that either, mind.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1914 on: January 22, 2015, 11:09:42 am »
Quote
Tolerance of others' beliefs isn't a bad idea, whether christian, muslim or atheist.



You have been intolerant of the Hebdo killers religious beliefs when you said the following.
They should be able to publish whatever they like, and if any person or group is offended by its content to the point of action, then they challenge it by legal means. That's all there is to it on that debate.


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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1915 on: January 22, 2015, 11:47:32 am »
They should be able to publish whatever they like, and if any person or group is offended by its content to the point of action, then they challenge it by legal means. That's all there is to it on that debate.

The anti-religous sentiment that runs through a lot of this debate is a separate question for me. I wouldn't mind, but some of the atheists on here can get quite offended when their beliefs are the subject of discussion. Tolerance of others' beliefs isn't a bad idea, whether christian, muslim or atheist.

The religious belief I am intolerant of is the one that says it's justifiable to murder people for a cartoon, or for shopping in a kosher supermarket, or for being a policeman or woman.

I have no interest in someone's personal beliefs as long as they keep it to themselves.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1916 on: January 22, 2015, 12:00:17 pm »
So I found a video of the Jewish business attacker which says they did coordinate with the Hebdo shooters, and that the reason for the attack was "vengeance" for "bombardment" of IS, civilians and fighters.

link

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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1917 on: January 22, 2015, 12:12:30 pm »
Isn't a bad idea, as long as those beliefs are contained within the rule of law. But I think you knew the point I was making, and if this wasn't an internet forum, would agree.

Wrong, it is within the law what is happening to Raif Badawi at the moment. It shouldn't be tolerated.


And don't suggest I am being disingenuous because it is a forum, thanks .
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1918 on: January 22, 2015, 01:04:08 pm »
Ok, I am talking about western law. But you still know the point I'm making.



Well there is no such thing as Western Law, so lets call it western values, values that include freedom of speech and expression.  Religious views are widely tolerated in this system.

So what I think you are really saying is that religious views should be respected rather than tolerated.
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Re: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris
« Reply #1919 on: January 22, 2015, 07:44:21 pm »
I really think you are wrong. There is still a long way to go and it is plain for anyone to see that there is still discrimination on the basis of race in Europe and other western countries but things are generally better than they were even fifty years ago. I don't know how old you are but I grew up through the sixties and seventies and the difference now from those days is enormous. You're a student of black history I think so you must be aware of that. This sort of sign was common in England in living memory but is unthinkable now.



And this photo by Elliot Erwitt was taken in the US in 1950:



I remember the I have a dream speech and it has been there as a touchstone and an ideal for what the world should be. I remember JFK, Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King being assassinated. I agree wholeheartedly with this:

As a site we take racism and homophobia seriously and will ban people who engage in either.

We take the same view on religion when people use it to express bigotry and hatred against individuals or groups of people. That's why there are no Celtic vs Rangers threads on here - the petty, tit-for-tat bigotry is offensive on those terms. But pointing out that religion is wrong or finding flaws in religious texts is different. That's an intellectual and philosophical debate and the moment anyone says I can't have that debate because someone, somewhere, anywhere, is offended I have problems.

I shouldn't insult someone but I should be free to insult their God. Because if I am wrong their God can punish me when I'm dead. It's no business of the living.

What is the business of the living are the things that religions (and governments of course) do, and we have to be free to comment on that.

Sir,

Firstly, thanks for taking the time to engage with some of my points. I appreciate that, I'm bunged up with a cold but decided to respond, now rather than later, out of courtesy and respect for the time you to took to engage.

I agree with some of what you say and disagree with other sentiments. My comment is subsumed on the principle of respect and I would implore other readers just try to internalize my points.

I agree in this country our society has made strides forward to a remarkable level. Of course when something is criminalised and there is an active campaign to teach children from a young age, one will expect such an improvement. Those improvements, as you know, did not come from the government but rather from the collective will of the majority of people (different races, creeds, sexes and sexualities). A collective coming together under the umbrella of respect.

The truth is, curtails on freedom of speech have always been there and we experience them as kids when our parents teach us to show respect to others.

Mocking is a facet of Freedom of Speech which is selective in this country and in France - the common theme being that the underclass in those countries (Muslims and to an increasing degree, immigrants) are considered fair game. Somebody can deny the Armenian Genocide and play down the numbers massacred by the French in North Africa (both happens) yet cannot deny or play down the Holocaust. Which sets alarm bells ringing as it's inconsistent to an inexplicable level.

If one really feels strongly about somebody's religion rather than insulting and mocking with cartoons (i.e. embarking on a superiority/inferiority play) why not converse with the person?

That respectful conversation brings togetherness, understanding and an exchange of ideas while mocking brings about division and increases misunderstandings.

You made the point that the level of racism has decreased (and I assume you were allaying my concerns that these cartoons will be a slippery slope to racist cartoons against Blacks, Chinese people, etc.). It has not decreased in France, in fact Chris Hedges who lived there says it's awfully racist and the same applies to French friends of mine from African and Arab descent.

What is there really to stop the French from allowing racist cartoons in the future as this current support of the anti-religion bigot Charlie Hebdo has set a precedent in (mis)using caricatures of races. They have already featured a pic of somebody from my race as a monkey.

The point here is, if 'freedom to insult' is being conflated as freedom to mock and demean then what is there to stop a bigot of a different kind to try and push the envelope and depict us as zoo animals and mock the Holocaust? Nothing, if the nation is consistent with its policy freedom to mock.

You mentioned MLK. It's weird because I was just listening about the March on Washington on one of my podcasts - which you cited to a guy earlier to show that protests/marches to have potency. That march was a coming together of people of all races and creeds (Charlton Heston was there to add a bit of star power!) but they all came under the banner of respecting other humans.


Sure, people have the ability and (in many cases sadly are even encouraged) to mock underclasses such as the Muslims in this day in the West but the reality is we know as children ALL our parents/guardians taught us not to exercise that ability to mock as it was disrespectful.

Why are people so quick to betray basic principles of respect to pour more misery on an underclass?

It's easy to destroy - one can do that by insulting and mocking but it's difficult to show respect as it takes more effort and engagement.


Lastly, I'm not Charlie Hebdo. I'd rather be Lassana (the Muslim African lad who saved lives in Paris) or Ahmed (the Muslim Arab policeman who was gunned down protecting French people). These people had respect, Charlie Hebdo did not have respect as he was trolling an underclass and cementing segregation.

And, who in the world is the 1000's of Nigerians massacred or the 1,000's of brown kids in Iraq/Afhganistan/Yemen who were at the end of phosphorous bombings and/or drone strikes by gangs ran by extremists such as Obama, Cameron, Blair and Bush.

Would MLK encourage the mockery of an underclass? No, because MLK taught us respect...