Topic: Shooting at Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris

[LondonRapLondon]

It's a thread about the killings in France. Not an opportunity for people to mock Catholics and the Pope.

Have some respect.

And perhaps we have some players at LFC that are Catholic..

[ABZ Rover]

 

[SP]

It's a thread about the killings in France. Not an opportunity for people to mock Catholics and the Pope.

Have some respect.

And perhaps we have some players at LFC that are Catholic..

The people at Charlie Hebdo would have appreciated the cartoon.

The religious beliefs of a an overpaid cosseted professional athlete are about the most irrelevant thing that could be added to this topic.

[Corkboy]

It's a thread about the killings in France. Not an opportunity for people to mock Catholics and the Pope.

Have some respect.

The entire fucking thing is about whether I can mock religious figures. I can. Don't tell me I have no respect in a thread about people who were executed for having no respect.

[LondonRapLondon]

The people at Charlie Hebdo would have appreciated the cartoon.

The religious beliefs of a an overpaid cosseted professional athlete are about the most irrelevant thing that could be added to this topic.

It's about respect and basic decency. Decent and respectful people don't insult or mock other cultures in such a way. LFC have had players of different cultures, religions and races.


I'm not Charlie. Charlie Hebdo was hypocritical and was a troll looking to provoke attention.

I'm a proud black man and also don't appreciate their depiction of a Black female politician as a monkey. We have had this type of shit in Europe for centuries - we don't find that shit funny. And also, when these anti-religion types get bored of presenting their cartoons about religion which (mis)uses caricatures of races (Arabs, Jews and Africans) will they then move blatantly onto races???

The Muslims in Europe are an underclass so are seen as an easy target by the bigots, I guarantee you if these bigots come for blacks there will be protests bigger than those against Exhibit B at the Barbican - which was defended by those wanting to show it as 'art'.

CH actually sacked one of their cartoonists for anti-semitism. Where is the consistency, how do they decide which group is the target for mockery and which is not?

Here is Chris Hedges and Abby Martin with some insights that are useful to the discussion on this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYnf6KfEroE

Oh yeah, before somebody confuses this comment with 'supporting' the jackasses who were shooting people in Paris. No, those guys were jackasses and big time wrong.

[LondonRapLondon]

The entire fucking thing is about whether I can mock religious figures. I can. Don't tell me I have no respect in a thread about people who were executed for having no respect.

No, I checked the OP, it was about a terrorist attack.

Not about some guy on a forum (you) insulting religions and the Pope. The internet is full of people insulting religious figures and faiths. Why not just discuss the event rather than taking it as an opportunity to exhibit anti-religion bigotry?

Have you read Robert Fisk's article on the event?

[Piggies in Blankies]

It's about respect and basic decency. Decent and respectful people don't insult or mock other cultures in such a way. LFC have had players of different cultures, religions and races.


I'm not Charlie. Charlie Hebdo was hypocritical and was a troll looking to provoke attention.

I'm a proud black man and also don't appreciate their depiction of a Black female politician as a monkey. We have had this type of shit in Europe for centuries - we don't find that shit funny. And also, when these anti-religion types get bored of presenting their cartoons about religion which (mis)uses caricatures of races (Arabs, Jews and Africans) will they then move blatantly onto races???

The Muslims in Europe are an underclass, I guarantee you if these bigots come for blacks there will be protests bigger than those against Exhibit B at the Barbican - which was defended by those wanting to show it as 'art'.

CH actually sacked one of their cartoonists for anti-semitism. Where is the consistency, how do they decide which group is the target for mockery and which is not?

Here is Chris Hedges and Abby Martin with some insights that are useful to the discussion on this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYnf6KfEroE

Oh yeah, before somebody confuses this comment with 'supporting' the jackasses who were shooting people in Paris. No, those guys were jackasses and big time wrong.

No Charlie was doing the cartoons to protest at people being killed for drawing cartoons.

They were making a point about free speech.

They were only mocking a religion.  And they were mocking it because people were using their religion as an excuse to maim, murder and kill.  They are a virulently anti racist organisation.

The cartoons are very nuanced to the French culture, it's very difficult to appreciate the context if you aren't French too.

Charlie Hebdo didn't really attract much attention with 60000 copies did they.

But the murders have meant that millions more have seen them.  Who is really courting the attention here?

You aren't supporting the "jackasses", but you are tacitly condoning their actions.  Which is sad.

[Corkboy]

No, I checked the OP, it was about a terrorist attack.

Not about some guy on a forum (you) insulting religions and the Pope. The internet is full of people insulting religious figures and faiths. Why not just discuss the event rather than taking it as an opportunity to exhibit anti-religion bigotry?

Or join the thread on page forty something and preach to everyone?

You quoted my cartoon about Galileo and called it bigotry. I don't think you understand what that means. Pointing out an historical fucking fact is not bigotry. Pointing out the historical parallel between the "insult" suffered by the Catholics and the "insult" suffered by Muslims is entirely apposite. You're not really able for this, are you?

[Piggies in Blankies]

Or join the thread on page forty something and preach to everyone?

You quoted my cartoon about Galileo and called it bigotry. I don't think you understand what that means. Pointing out an historical fucking fact is not bigotry. Pointing out the historical parallel between the "insult" suffered by the Catholics and the "insult" suffered by Muslims is entirely apposite. You're not really able for this, are you?

Hang on...

Is attacking someone for covering up decades of child rapists now insulting religion?

The world has gone mad.

[LondonRapLondon]

You aren't supporting the "jackasses", but you are tacitly condoning their actions.  Which is sad.

No I'm not. That's grossly unfair.

And, you would not like it if I said you are condoning the representation of my race as monkeys and racist caricatures of Jews and Arabs. I would not do that as it would be unjust towards you.

I ask you to extend me the same courtesy.

When you are black and have seen (as well as read our history) then you will be able to draw parallels with the way in which Western Supremacy has wielded it's axe towards Muslims right now. I'm proud of the work of Malcolm X, Marcus Garvey MLK and the Civil Rights movement to opposed the bigotry of White/Western Supremacy but we know we still are without equality. However, I know, for a movement to be consistent it must oppose other forms of Western Supremacy, be it; imperialism, negative portrayals of Eastern Europeans, anti-religion bigotry, subjecting groups to underclass status etc.

Just in case you are wondering, why did this guy link Western Supremacy with anti-religion bogtory; the overt supremacy of skin colour was destroyed in the West and then the West moved towards secular humanism and championed this as it's calling card. And now all of a sudden it's at it again, using it's calling card (previously white skin colour) as a stick to bash others - this supremacy attitude includes the mockery of religion.


I think having discussions such as these where we can discuss our views in an articulate and thoughtful way is much, much better than what other have done (namely take the opportunity to present insulting cartoons, like the one against Catholics)...

Again, a few interesting points to further the discussion from the author Chris Hedges:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYnf6KfEroE

[Piggies in Blankies]

No I'm not. That's grossly unfair.

And, you would not like it if I said you are condoning the representation of my race as monkeys and racist caricatures of Jews and Arabs. I would not do that as it would be unjust towards you.

I ask you to extend me the same courtesy.

When you are black and have seen (as well as read our history) then you will be able to draw parallels with the way in which Western Supremacy is wielded it's axe towards Muslims right now. I'm proud of the work of Malcolm X, Marcus Garvey MLK and the Civil Rights movement to opposed the bigotry of White/Western Supremacy but we know we still are without equality. However, I know, for a movement to be consistent it must oppose other forms of Western Supremacy, be it; imperialism, negative portrayals of Eastern Europeans, anti-religion bigotry, subjecting groups to underclass status etc.

Just in case you are wondering, why did this guy link Western Supremacy with anti-religion bogtory; the overt supremacy of skin colour was destroyed in the West and then the West moved towards secular humanism and championed this as it's calling card. And now all of a sudden it's at it again, using it's calling card (previously white skin colour) as a stick to bash others - this supremacy attitude includes the mockery of religion.


I think having discussions such as these where we can discuss our views in an articulate and thoughtful way is much, much better than what other have done (namely take the opportunity to present insulting cartoons, like the one against Catholics)...

How does that cartoon mock Catholics?

Would you therefore ban it because you think it's mocking Catholics?

The link you make is erroneous (in some ways) you chose to have a faith, faith is an idea, religion is a concept....these are ideas, I can attack ideas, I can mock them, because they are ideas, only ideas...

[Piggies in Blankies]

And what we are saying here essentially is that you're not allowed to offend religions.

If you draw the line at cartoons then they religious are hardly going to be happy for me to express my opinion that it's a load of old crap.   I don't discriminate, scientologists, muslims, Jews, Christians, they're all talking shit.... That's my idea, my thoughts.


And if cartoons were to be banned then my thoughts would be to, as religions clearly find my though offensive.

And if I can't express my thoughts in public then how can I stand up and stop these twisted people making laws that discriminate against me.

No, we draw the line.  That's the line we have in the UK (similarly France too), it's ok to offend religions, because the thought of not being able to offend them is far worse.

[Yorkykopite]

It's about respect and basic decency. Decent and respectful people don't insult or mock other cultures in such a way. LFC have had players of different cultures, religions and races.


I'm not Charlie. Charlie Hebdo was hypocritical and was a troll looking to provoke attention.

I'm a proud black man and also don't appreciate their depiction of a Black female politician as a monkey. We have had this type of shit in Europe for centuries - we don't find that shit funny. And also, when these anti-religion types get bored of presenting their cartoons about religion which (mis)uses caricatures of races (Arabs, Jews and Africans) will they then move blatantly onto races???

The Muslims in Europe are an underclass so are seen as an easy target by the bigots, I guarantee you if these bigots come for blacks there will be protests bigger than those against Exhibit B at the Barbican - which was defended by those wanting to show it as 'art'.

CH actually sacked one of their cartoonists for anti-semitism. Where is the consistency, how do they decide which group is the target for mockery and which is not?

Here is Chris Hedges and Abby Martin with some insights that are useful to the discussion on this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYnf6KfEroE

I don't know why you're "proud". That was a shockingly ignorant post.

[Corkboy]

No, we draw the line.  That's the line we have in the UK (similarly France too), it's ok to offend religions, because the thought of not being able to offend them is far worse.

I mean, imagine if I couldn't mock this grinning short arse mentalist for his religious belief that we are all alien souls kept in some sort of purgatory by the Evil Lord Zenu and sent here 75 million years ago in spaceships that looked exactly like mid 20th century airplanes.

[BUSHMILLS]

It's about respect and basic decency. Decent and respectful people don't insult or mock other cultures in such a way. LFC have had players of different cultures, religions and races.


I'm not Charlie. Charlie Hebdo was hypocritical and was a troll looking to provoke attention.

I'm a proud black man and also don't appreciate their depiction of a Black female politician as a monkey. We have had this type of shit in Europe for centuries - we don't find that shit funny. And also, when these anti-religion types get bored of presenting their cartoons about religion which (mis)uses caricatures of races (Arabs, Jews and Africans) will they then move blatantly onto races???

The Muslims in Europe are an underclass so are seen as an easy target by the bigots, I guarantee you if these bigots come for blacks there will be protests bigger than those against Exhibit B at the Barbican - which was defended by those wanting to show it as 'art'.

CH actually sacked one of their cartoonists for anti-semitism. Where is the consistency, how do they decide which group is the target for mockery and which is not?

Here is Chris Hedges and Abby Martin with some insights that are useful to the discussion on this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYnf6KfEroE

Oh yeah, before somebody confuses this comment with 'supporting' the jackasses who were shooting people in Paris. No, those guys were jackasses and big time wrong.

Remind me: what were the cartoons drawn by the people who were murdered in the supermarket?

[GreatEx]

It's a thread about the killings in France. Not an opportunity for people to mock Catholics and the Pope.

Have some respect.

And perhaps we have some players at LFC that are Catholic..

Heh heh, nice post.

[reads subsequent posts]

Oh wait, you were serious. I thought you'd had a moment of tongue-in-cheek brilliance.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

Hypocrisy level: French

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/france-begins-jailing-people-ironic-comments

[KiNki]

i'm thinking of starting a religion. 

The religion of blasphemy. 

I'm therefore protected by human rights to practice my religion of blasphemy free from persecution. 

These are my disciples or despicables.

There is the gospel according to saint George Carlin, saint Richard Pryor, saint Bill Hicks, saint Doug Stanhope, saint jim Jeffries, saint robin Williams, saint Lewis Black, saint Bill Maher, saint Eddie Griffin, saint Chris Rock, saint Louis Ck.

Wisemen, i'm sure you'll all agree who came with the gift of mirth.

Our first pope of the Church of Blamphemy is David of Allen.


You may kiss his ring.

Eamon.




 

[GreatEx]

I think having discussions such as these where we can discuss our views in an articulate and thoughtful way is much, much better than what other have done (namely take the opportunity to present insulting cartoons, like the one against Catholics)...

Interesting that you didn't say "namely go around murdering people for drawing pictures or being Jewish". I think it says a lot about where you stand.

[Alan_X]

Can I remind everyone this is primarily a football website.

[Card Cheat]

There must be an election in a few months...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/george-galloway-condemns-racist-islamophobic-hypocritical-rag-charlie-hebdo-at-freedom-of-speech-rally-9990490.html?icn=puff-image-1

George Galloway condemns 'racist, Islamophobic, hypocritical rag' Charlie Hebdo at freedom of speech rally

George Galloway boldly declared “Je ne suis pas Charlie Hebdo” during a damning address at a freedom of speech rally in Bradford on Saturday.

The Respect MP told a crowd of protestors gathered outside Bradford City Hall that the French government should be ashamed of themselves for standing by the “racist, Islamophobic, hypocritical rag” in the wake of the attacks in Paris that killed 17 people last week.

The shootings were provoked by the printing of a front cover displaying a caricature of the Prophet Mohamed. 

“No person, no human being should be subjected to violence, still less death for anything that they have said, written or drawn,” he said.

“So we condemn utterly the murder of 17 people in the events in Paris. But we will not allow this Charlie Hebdo magazine to be described as a king of loveable, anarchic, fun book of cartoons.

“These are not cartoons, these are not depictions of the Prophet, these are pornographic, obscene insults to the Prophet and by extension, 1.7billion human beings on this earth and there are limits.

“There are limits. There limits to free speech and free expression especially in France.”

Charlie Hebdo sought “to further marginalize, further alienate and further endanger exactly those parts of the community who are already alienated, already endangered,” he argued.

[The Gulleysucker]

There must be an election in a few months...

Yes.

You can always rely on George, he never disappoints.....

[Yorkykopite]

Galloway is a fascist so it's no surprise he traduces the dead cartoonists and ignores the dead Jews. 

[The Gulleysucker]

It's somewhat bizarre, that without a trace of irony, he can use the words “to further marginalize, further alienate and further endanger exactly those parts of the community who are already alienated, already endangered,”

I suppose in Georges mind, the Hebdo cartoonists are now beyond being endangered.

[LondonRapLondon]

I don't know why you're "proud". That was a shockingly ignorant post.

I'm disappointed that from all that I wrote you simply chose to engage with one word 'proud'.

However, let me explain to you the connotation of the word when used with us black people in our social vernacular. We are, and have been for centuries, constantly dealing with a message (either overt or more subtle) which tells us our race and skin colour is inferior so much so that some of us are pressured into changing their physical features (nose jobs, Eurocentric hair weaves and skin bleaching) thus when we say 'proud' it simply means we are not self-loathing (self-hater).

Sure we could just use a term such as 'unashamed and unapologetic black man' but the term 'proud black man/woman' has been embedded in our writing and history now.

[Yorkykopite]

I agree with the bulk of this article. It centres on a debate we once had on the old Islamist thread about how dangerous it is to take the Koran literally. I've excerpted some of it below, but the whole piece is worth reading.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9416542/religion-of-peace-is-not-a-harmless-platitude/

Here we land at the centre of the problem — a centre we have spent the last decade and a half trying to avoid: Islam is not a peaceful religion. No religion is, but Islam is especially not. It is certainly not, as some ill-informed people say, solely a religion of war. There are many peaceful verses in the Quran which — luckily for us — most Muslims live by. But it is by no means only a religion of peace.

I say this not because I hate Islam, nor do I have any special animus against Muslims, but simply because this is the verifiable truth based on the texts. Until we accept that we will never defeat the violence, we risk encouraging whole populations to take against all of Islam and abandon all those Muslims who are trying desperately to modernise, reform and de-literalise their faith. And — most importantly — we will give up our own traditions of free speech and historical inquiry and allow one religion to have an unbelievable advantage in the free marketplace of ideas.

It is not surprising that politicians have tried to avoid this debate by spinning a lie. The world would be an infinitely safer place if the historical Mohammed had behaved more like Buddha or Jesus. But he did not and an increasing number of people — Muslim and non-Muslim — have been able to learn this for themselves in recent years. But the light of modern critical inquiry which has begun to fall on Islam is a process which is already proving incredibly painful.

[Magix]

How is that Galileo comic in any way disrespectful to Catholics? It's as mild as they come.

[Corkboy]

I agree with the bulk of this article. It centres on a debate we once had on the old Islamist thread about how dangerous it is to take the Koran literally. I've excerpted some of it below, but the whole piece is worth reading.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9416542/religion-of-peace-is-not-a-harmless-platitude/

That is good.

[LondonRapLondon]

How does that cartoon mock Catholics?

Would you therefore ban it because you think it's mocking Catholics?

The link you make is erroneous (in some ways) you chose to have a faith, faith is an idea, religion is a concept....these are ideas, I can attack ideas, I can mock them, because they are ideas, only ideas...

Actually, faith for many transcends race. For many it's their primary identity.

The decent thing to do is actually recognize people have their sensitivities and respect that. Mocking is a way of saying 'you are inferior'. Freedom of speech is not freedom to mock. Freedom of speech is the ability to discuss ideas in a mature way and respectful way.

Mockery is what immature people do and is a sign of intellectual bankruptcy and trolls.


All my black and other ethnic mates have all expressed the idea that this anti-religion bigotry in the form of cartoons is actually another slippery slope to a stage for racism. This is what they all say, once these anti-religion bigots get bored (i.e. once the attention for anti-religion cartoons diminishes) they may well start to go after races in an effort to re-energise their attention whoring. After all, they use racial caricatures which are already deemed as racist in many people's eyes. So what's to say these bigots won;t go after Black or Chinese people? The law of the land allowed people to throw bananas and make monkey chants at my parents generation on the street. What's to say it won;t allow a few jackasses on the net to depict us as zoo animals (just like the depiction that Charlie Hebdo presented of a Black female politician)? Nothing.

And what about the Catholic people countries in Eastern Europe, what's there to stop them from saying, wait a minute if these people see it OK to mock and abuse what Catholics hold dear then why not mock and abuse transgender, disabled, Black, Chinese etc..?

It's opening the door to a society lacking respect for their fellow man

And add to the fact that there is still a huge under-current which is racist in the UK and France. My wife has been abused in supermarkets, pubs and streets for simply marrying a black man. As with anti-religion bigots, these bigots invariably wait for me to be away from my wife before they target what they perceive to be the 'weaker' target. So I come back and see my wife crying. Sick and cowardly.

My Congolese mate says it's worse in France, he's with a French woman and the type of abuse they have received in France is even more vile.

I genuinely believe in the dream of a society where children of every race are equal. MLK

[Yorkykopite]

Christ on a bike. Charlie Hebdo is not racist. It mocks racists.

[Corkboy]

Actually, faith for many transcends race. For many it's their primary identity.

...................................

I genuinely believe in the dream of a society where children of every race are equal. MLK

Religion is not the same as race. You can choose your religion, you can't choose your race. Until you grasp this fairly basic fact, you're going to continue posting things that are just wrong.

Also, you seem to be saying that faith, any faith, is immune from mocking. How about Mormonism, a religion that didn't admit black people until the 70s. Can we mock them? Can we take the piss out of them for being racist?

What about the Saudis and their lashing of atheists and rape victims? Can I mock those assholes? Because after all, it's their faith.

[Yorkykopite]

Religion is not the same as race. You can choose your religion, you can't choose your race. Until you grasp this fairly basic fact, you're going to continue posting things that are just wrong.

Also, you seem to be saying that faith, any faith, is immune from mocking. How about Mormonism, a religion that didn't admit black people until the 70s. Can we mock them? Can we take the piss out of them for being racist?

What about the Saudis and their lashing of atheists and rape victims? Can I mock those assholes? Because after all, it's their faith.

Why stop at religious faith? Why not outlaw the mockery of political faith too? After all millions of people often feel extremely strongly about political philosophies and feel very strong allegiances to political parties. I do. So, yes, come on let's ring-fence democratic socialism from mockery and scrutiny. From now on no one shall mock the Labour party.   

[Corkboy]

Why stop at religious faith? Why not outlaw the mockery of political faith too? After all millions of people often feel extremely strongly about political philosophies and feel very strong allegiances to political parties. I do. So, yes, come on let's ring-fence democratic socialism from mockery and scrutiny. From now on no one shall mock the Labour party.   

Why stop there? What about sport? We all feel fairly strongly about one football club. I would like to see all the Chelsea fans from last night jailed. Hell, flog them. They insult our faith, our revered figures. Anyone who sings the Stevie Gerrard slipping song needs to be fucking beheaded.

[At the Xmas works do asking someone to give them one]

Why stop at religious faith? Why not outlaw the mockery of political faith too? After all millions of people often feel extremely strongly about political philosophies and feel very strong allegiances to political parties. I do. So, yes, come on let's ring-fence democratic socialism from mockery and scrutiny. From now on no one shall mock the Labour party.   

How about football teams? Forms a part of people's identity. Will I be limited to saying kind words about Chelsea FC?

[Magix]

What about pastry? I'm hurt when people mock my preference for tarts.

[Yorkykopite]

Why stop there? What about sport? We all feel fairly strongly about one football club.

https://lfcfanbanners.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/liverpool-is-our-religion.jpg

[KiNki]

Can we get Harpercollins to wipe manchester off the map?

[At the Xmas works do asking someone to give them one]

Actually, faith for many transcends race. For many it's their primary identity.

LRL, it's going to be very hard to have a discussion with you if you insist on conflating Racism, Secular Society and Identity.

[-Sad Fuck-]

That's comparing the leader of the French National Front to Hitler, for those that are wondering.

Mocking is a way of saying 'you are inferior'. Freedom of speech is not freedom to mock.

Yes it fucking is.

[Anywhichwayicant]

What about pastry? I'm hurt when people mock my preference for tarts.

Fuck you and your rhubarb tarts.