Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[stara]

@lizrawlings
DUP Westminster leader Nigel Dodds tells #Newsnight "I would stay in the European Union and remain

I'll be waiting DUP's rendition of "Anthem of Europe" @ Parliament. SNP did it quite nicely 2017.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/esTOPwh0REM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/esTOPwh0REM</a>

[TepidT2O]

Riot police outside Downing Street now...


Jon Snow says he’s never seen so many white people in one place....

Not one bit of xenophobia in this Brexit stuff  ....Honest

[Red Beret]

Oh absolutely, she fully expected to win a huge landslide so inept was Corbyn.  Credit where it's due he ran a good campaign and May ran the worst one possible.

Had she kept her majority she may still have struggled but there would have been a real chance that she'd have got it through eventually

Her majority was wafer thin - bolstering her Brexit mandate was the other main reason in calling the election in the first place.  But without that election she wouldn't have needed the DUP (or less likely) and any Labour rebellion would have been more significant.

I just find it ironic that in winning those seats, Leaver Corbyn helped make it that little bit harder to leave.

[Red Beret]

You mean a bunch of drunk dickheads will turn up and probably start fighting themselves?

Sums up them, the government, and Parliament pretty much.

[Red Beret]

@lizrawlings
DUP Westminster leader Nigel Dodds tells #Newsnight "I would stay in the European Union and remain rather than risk Northern Ireland’s position. That’s how strongly I feel about the union." https://t.co/LM3OYOYHu0 https://t.co/2xoyxPnOuh


Well Nigel, you're so very very close to solving this puzzle. In Wheel of Fortune terms it's
R_v_k_  Art_c__ 50

Catch 22 for them.  They want to stay in the Union more than they want out of the European Union.

[Iska]

Jon Snow says he’s never seen so many white people in one place....

Stupid way to put it to be honest though.

[Yosser0_0]

Did the BBC air any of the speeches from the People's Vote march on Saturday?

Frottage, Peter Bone and Tim Martin have all been shown live today.

No, I could only find the Heseltine speech on You tube.

<a href="https://youtube.com/v/Y8oWrF2CXF8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/Y8oWrF2CXF8</a>

[TepidT2O]

Stupid way to put it to be honest though.

Not quite my point...

My point was that all the protesters were white and yet we are told Brexit is not xenophobic.

[Dr. Beaker]

No, I could only find the Heseltine speech on You tube.

<a href="https://youtube.com/v/Y8oWrF2CXF8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/Y8oWrF2CXF8</a>

So is Alisson a remainer?

[goalrushatgoodison]

Just saw John Bolton explaining that the US  can't wait to help independent Britain by entering into a trade deal. He went on to explain that the reason they want to do this is because the president feels that existing trade deals between US and EU discriminates against the U.S.

In other words UK as a member of the EU have an advantageous deal now, in Trumps opinion, so if you leave you won't get be getting near as good a deal going forward. Sounds like a good reason to stay in to me?

[ShakaHislop]

From a BBC report about the protest

"Parliament Square and the roads around the Commons were full of thousands of Leavers; just a handful of Remainers watched on"

The green on Parliament Square, yes. All of the roads immediately around it, and "around the Commons", fuck no.

Two of those Remainers supposedly "watching on" (definitely not people who were walking by and pulled off the street) were then interviewed vox-pop style. One of them said that "it's a pity that things haven't progressed a little quicker" and "by now, the politicians could have sorted something out" and the other "we personally voted Remain but we just want it finished with now, even if it means leaving" 

Even at 7:20pm, despite it being acknowledged that the protest had officially ended two hours earlier, the BBC had someone live at the scene because supposedly a "few hundred people" (which you didn't have a clear shot of, even if those numbers were true) had stuck around.

Disproportiate, dodgy coverage IMO but hey, they're "angry". As if I should give a shit.

[Red Beret]

Just saw John Bolton explaining that the US  can't wait to help independent Britain by entering into a trade deal. He went on to explain that the reason they want to do this is because the president feels that existing trade deals between US and EU discriminates against the U.S.

In other words UK as a member of the EU have an advantageous deal now, in Trumps opinion, so if you leave you won't get be getting near as good a deal going forward. Sounds like a good reason to stay in to me?

You should know by now that common sense is not driving this.  It only makes sense from the perspective of the internal power play happening within the Conservative Party.  Corbyn's Labour are just tagging along for the ride.

[BobOnATank]

@lizrawlings
DUP Westminster leader Nigel Dodds tells #Newsnight "I would stay in the European Union and remain rather than risk Northern Ireland’s position. That’s how strongly I feel about the union." https://t.co/LM3OYOYHu0 https://t.co/2xoyxPnOuh


Well Nigel, you're so very very close to solving this puzzle. In Wheel of Fortune terms it's
R_v_k_  Art_c__ 50

Duper stupidity, its like they drove into a cul-de-sac, blocked themselves in, climbed out, blindfolded themselves then backed into a corner and held a gun against their own head threatening to pull the trigger all while shouting there was nothing they could do to stop it.

ERG abandoned them and they've blinked with no where left to go in westminister all while losing a shit load of support in NI and all farmers and businesses. With a potential GE around the corner they are now in the position were if they lose votes to the UUP for example that'll open the door for SF to be the largest party plus they'll lose the veto and will have to stomach equal rights. I can only hope this all happens and of course that A50 is revoked.

And the icing on the cake is that they've progressed the unification journey 10 years with their actions

[killer-heels]

From a BBC report about the protest

"Parliament Square and the roads around the Commons were full of thousands of Leavers; just a handful of Remainers watched on"

The green on Parliament Square, yes. All of the roads immediately around it, and "around the Commons", fuck no.

Two of those Remainers supposedly "watching on" (definitely not people who were walking by and pulled off the street) were then interviewed vox-pop style. One of them said that "it's a pity that things haven't progressed a little quicker" and "by now, the politicians could have sorted something out" and the other "we personally voted Remain but we just want it finished with now, even if it means leaving" 

Even at 7:20pm, despite it being acknowledged that the protest had officially ended two hours earlier, the BBC had someone live at the scene because supposedly a "few hundred people" (which you didn't have a clear shot of, even if those numbers were true) had stuck around.

Disproportiate, dodgy coverage IMO but hey, they're "angry". As if I should give a shit.

There was a guy on Victoria Derbyshire show saying that if Leave was denied there would be protests twice the size of the Peoples march

These fuckers cannot do anything of any significance. Their constituency is too old and as brits they are not built for protests like those across the channel.

Maybe the likes of UKIP will get more votes and as well as many fringe right wing parties but if anything thats a good thing. We have needed a split of the right wing vote for years.

[Yosser0_0]

I'd imagine now if it goes to a peoples vote the question would have to be three way - No Deal / Deal / Remain. The deal would have to be either the WA or something along the lines of the Customs union, provided that gets EU buy in. The question is then would parliament allow the "No Deal" option, they don't seem to want it on the table, but they did allow a binary Yes/No on EU membership at the last referendum. It might be difficult to keep that question away from the vote, also it depends upon your point of view as it could divide the Leave vote or galvanise it towards a "No deal" vote, either way its a huge risk as we saw at the last referendum. The Remain vote I imagine would be constant or perhaps increase (I think). A peoples vote isn't to be taken for granted, the question is crucial as there's a lot of fucking dick heads out there with a vote.    

[goalrushatgoodison]

You should know by now that common sense is not driving this.  It only makes sense from the perspective of the internal power play happening within the Conservative Party.  Corbyn's Labour are just tagging along for the ride.

I get that of course but Bolton seemed to think he was making the case that you would be better off out when in fact he was actually pointing out, at least with regard to trade with the U.S.,  that you would be significantly worse.

[rob1966]

Not quite my point...

My point was that all the protesters were white and yet we are told Brexit is not xenophobic.

White and middle to old aged from the pics I saw. You're right as well, Brexit is supposed to be for Britain, yet it was all UKIP and Tommy (my name is really Yaxley-Lennon) Robinson and his racist mob.

[BOBSCOUSE]

So is Alisson a remainer?

I wouldn't say so, comes off his line more than most keepers.

[Yosser0_0]

I wouldn't say so, comes off his RED line more than most keepers.

Fixed that for you. 

[ShakaHislop]

There was a guy on Victoria Derbyshire show saying that if Leave was denied there would be protests twice the size of the Peoples march

These fuckers cannot do anything of any significance. Their constituency is too old and as brits they are not built for protests like those across the channel.

Maybe the likes of UKIP will get more votes and as well as many fringe right wing parties but if anything thats a good thing. We have needed a split of the right wing vote for years.

There was a guy on Victoria Derbyshire show saying that if Leave was denied there would be protests twice the size of the Peoples march

These fuckers cannot do anything of any significance. Their constituency is too old and as brits they are not built for protests like those across the channel.

Maybe the likes of UKIP will get more votes and as well as many fringe right wing parties but if anything thats a good thing. We have needed a split of the right wing vote for years.

I've seen the bollocks excuse used by some people that Brexit is still set to happen, so Leavers don't have an incentive to march.

As things stand today, it's far less certain that any form of Brexit will happen than it was in March 2017, when pro-EU protestors managed a turnout of around 100.000 despite it being months after the referendum (so not simply a knee-jerk reaction to the result) and Article 50 due to be triggered less than a week later. Even though the threat to Brexit has increased since then, it didn't look to me like there were anywhere near 100.000 out there today, let alone a million.

If there was ever a time for Leavers to back up their talk of scarily large numbers taking the streets if their "will" is "frustrated", it's now but they're not. Even if we don't leave, and they do subsequently manage to increase the numbers a bit, will they and their sympathisers be asked by the media if they're sore losers who can't accept the result of a democratic vote to the same extent Remainers have? I'm not holding my breath. It'll likely be more doubling down on the "Westminster bubble failing to listen to the concerns of the left behinds" narrative.

[CornerFlag]

I mean...



This guy's convinced me, I was always on the wrong side.

[TepidT2O]

Oh no....
The independent says May is going to call an election if she can’t force through meangful vote 4.

Jesus titty fucking Christ.  And I thought it couldn’t get any worse.

This is aramageddon with two apocalyptic outcomes.  Neither wil, help one iota.

[Red Beret]

I get that of course but Bolton seemed to think he was making the case that you would be better off out when in fact he was actually pointing out, at least with regard to trade with the U.S.,  that you would be significantly worse.

I think we can all agree that most people attached to the Trump Administration are not there necessarily because of their smarts.

Other than that, the fact is Bolton can make that statement because he is fully aware that this whole mess is being driven by Tory ideology, and that what he says wont matter a damn to the final outcome.

Why do you think Tusk looks so pained on the issue?  He knows that, despite the referendum result, a huge chunk of the UK is being dragged into this against its will, to satisfy nothing more than an internal power play.  But there's only so much he can say or do without coming across as interfering.

[Yosser0_0]

Oh no....
The independent says May is going to call an election if she can’t force through meangful vote 4.

Jesus titty fucking Christ.  And I thought it couldn’t get any worse.

This is aramageddon with two apocalyptic outcomes.  Neither wil, help one iota.

But then again, can you trust a word she says?

[ShakaHislop]

I mean...



This guy's convinced me, I was always on the wrong side.

Wouldn't surprise me if he's the type that supports banning the wearing of face coverings in public.

[TepidT2O]

But then again, can you trust a word she says?

I can’t take it.

I hate nearly all of them.

[Red Beret]

Oh no....
The independent says May is going to call an election if she can’t force through meangful vote 4.

Jesus titty fucking Christ.  And I thought it couldn’t get any worse.

This is aramageddon with two apocalyptic outcomes.  Neither wil, help one iota.

what the actual?  Right about know, May's only redeeming feature is that she isn't Corbyn.  Seems like a ploy to try and lay the blame for the Brexit failure at the feet of the opposition rather than her own ERG.

Even if by some miracle May secures a majority, it can't be much more than what she had in 2017.  That might help her - or rather, her successor - but it would surely cause a Brexit delay till the end of the year.

[Yosser0_0]

I think we can all agree that most people attached to the Trump Administration are not there necessarily because of their smarts.

Other than that, the fact is Bolton can make that statement because he is fully aware that this whole mess is being driven by Tory ideology, and that what he says wont matter a damn to the final outcome.

Why do you think Tusk looks so pained on the issue?  He knows that, despite the referendum result, a huge chunk of the UK is being dragged into this against its will, to satisfy nothing more than an internal power play.  But there's only so much he can say or do without coming across as interfering.

A real diplomat, when Obama came over in '16 saying that the UK would be at the back of the queue for trade deals it really back fired as it was an affront to the British people to insult them in such a way. 

[Skeeve]

That diagram doesn't have revoke on it. :-/

The one linked has cancel brexit as one of 3 options for 12th april, it also looks clipped compared with the one on the bbc site as that also has cancel brexit as one of the options on the bottom row too.

[Ray K]

Catch 22 for them.  They want to stay in the Union more than they want out of the European Union.

That's not a Catch-22. You pick the one which is most important to you - you might say the one which is their entire raison d'etre.

If they hated the EU as equally as they loved the Union, that'd be a real dilemma for them.

[No666]

She's going to go into the next election as Prime Minister and then resign to facilitate a leadership election?

[killer-heels]

Oh no....
The independent says May is going to call an election if she can’t force through meangful vote 4.

Jesus titty fucking Christ.  And I thought it couldn’t get any worse.

This is aramageddon with two apocalyptic outcomes.  Neither wil, help one iota.

It will be amazing if she calls an election. Most of her party wont want one. Lets not forget they want her out.

[cowtownred]

I'll be waiting DUP's rendition of "Anthem of Europe" @ Parliament. SNP did it quite nicely 2017.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/esTOPwh0REM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/esTOPwh0REM</a>

Big problem.  They only know 2 songs.  Nearer my God to thee, and The Sash my father wore.

[TepidT2O]

It will be amazing if she calls an election. Most of her party wont want one. Lets not forget they want her out.

I suspect it’s a final attempt at the deal.

“Vote for the deal or you’ll get Corbyn”..  not sure how she will get another hit at the deal in Parliament though,.

[Zeb]

She's back to threatening all the things to all the peoples. Would be fascinated to know whether she realises that it leads to the revocation or no deal choice by incentivising everyone to dig in more.

[Yosser0_0]

It will be amazing if she calls an election. Most of her party wont want one. Lets not forget they want her out.

Yeah neither side wants one, I heard a Labour MP earlier on the radio talking about how terrifying the offer from May was to resign if they backed her deal - because they have no idea who the replacement would be, but more than likely it would mean a Hard Brexiter, how stupid is she? A GE could loose either of them (parties) loads of seats - who knows, the electorate have become as erratic as the MPs. 

[Yosser0_0]

She's back to threatening all the things to all the peoples. Would be fascinated to know whether she realises that it leads to the revocation or no deal choice by incentivising everyone to dig in more.

Deep breath....in a way it reminds me of Hitlers final days, obviously not that serious, but your words drew parallels for me.

[Red Beret]

The one linked has cancel brexit as one of 3 options for 12th april, it also looks clipped compared with the one on the bbc site as that also has cancel brexit as one of the options on the bottom row too.

I refer the honourable gentlemen to the reply I gave some moments ago

It does. It has a single 'cancel brexit' scenario.

Oh yeah!  Tucked in so you can barely see it - almost like an afterthought!

I reckon we need to resort to Plan B myself:

[Red Beret]

That's not a Catch-22. You pick the one which is most important to you - you might say the one which is their entire raison d'etre.

If they hated the EU as equally as they loved the Union, that'd be a real dilemma for them.

That's true.  Still, it must be gutting for them that now they have the chance to get away from the EU they have finally been forced to face the impracticalities. 

And given that NI voted to Remain I'm guessing the optics of a potential election may have caught up with them too.  In fact, it might have been GE murmurings that prompted them to issue their statement.

As things stand, UKIP would have a gilt edged opportunity to gobble up votes from the Tories in an election - if they can remain functional.  I really don't understand May's reasoning - I couldn't see her campaigning any better than last time, and last time she sucked so hard.  She wont be able to get away with any of that running through cornfields bullshit this time; her mask is well and truly torn.

[Red Beret]

She's back to threatening all the things to all the peoples. Would be fascinated to know whether she realises that it leads to the revocation or no deal choice by incentivising everyone to dig in more.

As things stand, no deal, revoke or extend remain the only viable options.  Extend - either for a referendum or an election - is only a stalling tactic, but for what?  May's deal isn't up for renegotiation.  These problems are only going to circle round again. 

At best, it allows a new leader to break out of the corner May has painted herself into - somebody who will drop her red lines, or bite the bullet on revoke.  Both of those options have major repercussions in Parliament, but after an election they may seem more palatable.  Worst case scenario is that it buys time to prepare for a No Deal Brexit - and if the Tories are still in charge after a GE and they put a nutjob in charge that might well be on the cards.

May is going to have a helluva job fighting an election after this fiasco though.  It has to be an attempt to strong arm the party into backing her.  Talk about last throw of the dice.