Author Topic: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..  (Read 595073 times)

Offline Sangria

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17080 on: April 23, 2021, 12:09:01 am »
Jess Phillips deleted this tweet after it turned out the person who murdered Phoenix Netts was a cis woman. There was nothing to ever suggest it was a trans woman, only her own assumptions.



A thread about it here:

https://twitter.com/Henriettaspoon/status/1384934012670590977?s=20

Nothing will be done, the same as nothing's ever been done about Rosie Duffield. In the hierarchy of discrimination within the Labour party, the trans community can consider themselves at the bottom, with the wider LGBTQ+ community not all that much further up.

Is there anyone that you approve of, that doesn't have any negative history whatsoever?
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Snail

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17081 on: April 23, 2021, 12:33:12 am »
Is there anyone that you approve of, that doesn't have any negative history whatsoever?

This subject is personal to me and I have been pretty consistent in my view that I genuinely feel like the party is not a safe place for members of the LGBTQ+ community because of people like Phillips and Duffield, so spare me the snidery. Zero tolerance only goes so far, I guess.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17082 on: April 23, 2021, 12:46:38 am »
This subject is personal to me and I have been pretty consistent in my view that I genuinely feel like the party is not a safe place for members of the LGBTQ+ community because of people like Phillips and Duffield, so spare me the snidery. Zero tolerance only goes so far, I guess.

So what do you suggest? Labour expel Phillips and Duffield? Or that Corbyn is brought back into the fold to even things up? (since that is what your comment about zero tolerance is clearly about).
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17083 on: April 23, 2021, 08:31:23 am »
You really need to stop bringing Corbyn into the argument all the time, especially when he's not been mentioned or involved in the conversation/topic whatsoever.

Offline Snail

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17084 on: April 23, 2021, 09:06:45 am »
Labour expel Phillips and Duffield?

Yes.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17085 on: April 23, 2021, 09:36:52 am »
You really need to stop bringing Corbyn into the argument all the time, especially when he's not been mentioned or involved in the conversation/topic whatsoever.

Except she's deliberately rehashing the arguments made against Corbyn, except redirecting them to be against his enemies. And as she's subsequently posted, she wants the same treatment for them.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17086 on: April 23, 2021, 09:39:46 am »
The argument has absolutely nothing to do with Corbyn whatsoever.

Offline Snail

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17087 on: April 23, 2021, 09:49:21 am »
Except she's deliberately rehashing the arguments made against Corbyn, except redirecting them to be against his enemies. And as she's subsequently posted, she wants the same treatment for them.

Who's she, mate? The cat's mother?

You're dead wrong, by the way. I want Labour to expel Duffield and Phillips because I think they're dangerous. I'd appreciate it if you just accepted that rather than making up fantasies.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 09:51:10 am by Snail »

Offline Sangria

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17088 on: April 23, 2021, 09:56:02 am »
Who's she, mate? The cat's mother?

You're dead wrong, by the way. I want Labour to expel Duffield and Phillips because I think they're dangerous.

I can't disagree. But I think there are more effective ways of getting the LGBT case across than you're doing, based on national inclinations, and the fact that the Tories are in power and will continue conceivably for another decade or two. Labelling people and winning the argument on the left doesn't work; you'll purify the left to your satisfaction and get to win the moral high ground on the left, and the Tories will continue on their merry way. Party-independent arguments, with plenty of references to the services and WW2, works better across the board (see Joanna Lumley's Gurkha campaign).
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Snail

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17089 on: April 23, 2021, 10:24:30 am »
I can't disagree. But I think there are more effective ways of getting the LGBT case across than you're doing, based on national inclinations, and the fact that the Tories are in power and will continue conceivably for another decade or two. Labelling people and winning the argument on the left doesn't work; you'll purify the left to your satisfaction and get to win the moral high ground on the left, and the Tories will continue on their merry way. Party-independent arguments, with plenty of references to the services and WW2, works better across the board (see Joanna Lumley's Gurkha campaign).

See again, you've written a condescending paragraph about me wanting to "purify the left" when it's just about right and wrong. I'll leave it there if that's alright.

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17090 on: April 23, 2021, 10:30:26 am »
Thought this was qutie interesting... Sarwar continuing to impress while Starmer is stagnant. It may just be because we have an election and Scottish Labour are coming out with some interesting policies.

I don't trust Sarwar at all but he is playing the role of the 'adult in the room' and trying to put the indy debate to the side and focus on other non-constitutional issues quite well. It certainly puts him in contrast with all the other Scottish Leaders apart from maybe the Greens in that regard.

Europe Elects
@EuropeElects
UK (Scotland), YouGov poll:

Leader net approval

Sturgeon (SNP-G/EFA): +25 (-2)
Sarwar (LAB-S&D): +18 (+15)
Starmer (LAB-S&D): -21 (-1)
Ross (CON-ECR): -33 (-12)
Johnson (CON-ECR): -38 (+4)

+/- vs 4-8 Mar

Fieldwork: 16-20 April 2021
Sample: 1,204

Offline Sangria

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17091 on: April 23, 2021, 10:38:54 am »
See again, you've written a condescending paragraph about me wanting to "purify the left" when it's just about right and wrong. I'll leave it there if that's alright.

Complaining about condescending and again mounting the high ground. Let me pose a question, where I'm not sure where there is high ground, or where the liberal left should take a position. I've grown up with the idea that liberalism should support feminism. I've grown up with the idea that liberalism should support LGBT rights.

So there's been comments from old school feminists, from the 60s and 70s vintage, that they have been demonised by younger LGBT activists. JK Rowling is one notable example, while Suzanne Moore has said that a large band chased her out of the Guardian.

I don't have a label that attaches me to any of the groups. I'm not female. I'm not LGBT. I've been brought up to favour liberalism. But in this case, where two of the groups, neither of whom to which I belong, but both of which I was brought up to favour, label each other as wrong. Where does the right and wrong lie, and on what general philosophical grounds do I know which from which? Feminism, or LGBT?
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Sangria

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17092 on: April 23, 2021, 10:42:43 am »
Thought this was qutie interesting... Sarwar continuing to impress while Starmer is stagnant. It may just be because we have an election and Scottish Labour are coming out with some interesting policies.

I don't trust Sarwar at all but he is playing the role of the 'adult in the room' and trying to put the indy debate to the side and focus on other non-constitutional issues quite well. It certainly puts him in contrast with all the other Scottish Leaders apart from maybe the Greens in that regard.

Europe Elects
@EuropeElects
UK (Scotland), YouGov poll:

Leader net approval

Sturgeon (SNP-G/EFA): +25 (-2)
Sarwar (LAB-S&D): +18 (+15)
Starmer (LAB-S&D): -21 (-1)
Ross (CON-ECR): -33 (-12)
Johnson (CON-ECR): -38 (+4)

+/- vs 4-8 Mar

Fieldwork: 16-20 April 2021
Sample: 1,204

Depending on how the numbers go in a couple of years time (remember Starmer was the most popular Labour leader since peak Blair circa 1997), the smart move may be to retain Sarwar and highlight him in Scotland whilst replacing Starmer with someone that complements Sarwar south of the border.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17093 on: April 23, 2021, 10:48:39 am »
Although Sarwar was caught out in a lie by Ciaran Jenkins yesterday which just drives home why, despite him impressing, he won't gain the trust of many people.

https://twitter.com/C4Ciaran/status/1385311529462022144

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17094 on: April 23, 2021, 11:19:41 am »
Sian has a point, when anti-Semitism was a hot topic there were no calls of trying to purify the Labour party by expelling people who were guilty of it. It was just the right thing to do.

Sorry for being totally ignorant here, what is a cis woman?
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline Wild Romany Boy

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17095 on: April 23, 2021, 11:20:04 am »
See again, you've written a condescending paragraph about me wanting to "purify the left" when it's just about right and wrong. I'll leave it there if that's alright.

I'm with you 100%.

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17096 on: April 23, 2021, 11:22:50 am »
Sian has a point, when anti-Semitism was a hot topic there were no calls of trying to purify the Labour party by expelling people who were guilty of it. It was just the right thing to do.

Sorry for being totally ignorant here, what is a cis woman?

"Cis" is someone whose gender identity matches their gender at birth so a cis woman is a biological woman who identifies as a woman.

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17097 on: April 23, 2021, 11:22:52 am »
Complaining about condescending and again mounting the high ground. Let me pose a question, where I'm not sure where there is high ground, or where the liberal left should take a position. I've grown up with the idea that liberalism should support feminism. I've grown up with the idea that liberalism should support LGBT rights.

So there's been comments from old school feminists, from the 60s and 70s vintage, that they have been demonised by younger LGBT activists. JK Rowling is one notable example, while Suzanne Moore has said that a large band chased her out of the Guardian.

I don't have a label that attaches me to any of the groups. I'm not female. I'm not LGBT. I've been brought up to favour liberalism. But in this case, where two of the groups, neither of whom to which I belong, but both of which I was brought up to favour, label each other as wrong. Where does the right and wrong lie, and on what general philosophical grounds do I know which from which? Feminism, or LGBT?

Maybe the one that doesn't discriminate against the other?
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17098 on: April 23, 2021, 11:25:58 am »
"Cis" is someone whose gender identity matches their gender at birth so a cis woman is a biological woman who identifies as a woman.

Thanks Welshred.

I'll be honest I don't know much about trans rights issue, it's never been something that's affected me personally. I have heard some of the absolutely disgusting things said about trans women though.
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17099 on: April 23, 2021, 11:28:25 am »
Maybe the one that doesn't discriminate against the other?

That's the problem, from the perspective of one who isn't actively involved. Both say that the other discriminates against the other. LGBT activists say that people like Rowling discriminate against them. Moore says she was driven out of a job by LGBT activists. I was brought up to support women's rights. I was brought up to support LGBT rights. Now both sides are saying that each oppresses the other.

That's why I suggested a solution that attempts to circumvent the question. But then I was called out for being condescending.

The problem with liberal reformist arguments is that they usually depict as one side as in the wrong, and thus the right thing to do is usually quite clear. I was brought up to regard both sides as right, and now both sides are saying that the other is wrong.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17100 on: April 23, 2021, 11:36:17 am »
That's the problem, from the perspective of one who isn't actively involved. Both say that the other discriminates against the other. LGBT activists say that people like Rowling discriminate against them. Moore says she was driven out of a job by LGBT activists. I was brought up to support women's rights. I was brought up to support LGBT rights. Now both sides are saying that each oppresses the other.

That's why I suggested a solution that attempts to circumvent the question. But then I was called out for being condescending.

The problem with liberal reformist arguments is that they usually depict as one side as in the wrong, and thus the right thing to do is usually quite clear. I was brought up to regard both sides as right, and now both sides are saying that the other is wrong.

Because you are being condescending, every page on this thread there is a post from you going on about purifying the left and how that is to the detriment of the Labour party.

Ok, that is a valid point, one I agree with on some levels, but it doesn't need to be used in every response on this thread.


So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17101 on: April 23, 2021, 11:39:09 am »
That's the problem, from the perspective of one who isn't actively involved. Both say that the other discriminates against the other. LGBT activists say that people like Rowling discriminate against them. Moore says she was driven out of a job by LGBT activists. I was brought up to support women's rights. I was brought up to support LGBT rights. Now both sides are saying that each oppresses the other.

That's why I suggested a solution that attempts to circumvent the question. But then I was called out for being condescending.

The problem with liberal reformist arguments is that they usually depict as one side as in the wrong, and thus the right thing to do is usually quite clear. I was brought up to regard both sides as right, and now both sides are saying that the other is wrong.

The problem is the gender critical feminists use such disingenuous arguments that it is hard to take their claims of discrimination seriously when it usually (not always) appears to just be a mask for their transphobia.

The prime example of this is how they are constantly trying to conflate the use of toilets by trans people (which has not been an issue for decades) with the proposed GRA reforms which will have absolutely no impact on it.

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17102 on: April 23, 2021, 11:40:27 am »
"Cis" is someone whose gender identity matches their gender at birth so a cis woman is a biological woman who identifies as a woman.

I always thought it would be more accurate to say the gender matches their sex at birth, as gender is by definition a social construct while sex is the biological designation? Or perhaps I am well behind the times there!!

Either way it is clear that there are double standards being held here. Jess Phillips clearly quick to leap in to try and point score against Trans-rights activists (indeed by extension transpeople themselves). Deleting without explanation is cowardly. I would love to see the reaction if this was done in an anti-Semitic context.

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17103 on: April 23, 2021, 11:43:19 am »
That's the problem, from the perspective of one who isn't actively involved. Both say that the other discriminates against the other. LGBT activists say that people like Rowling discriminate against them. Moore says she was driven out of a job by LGBT activists. I was brought up to support women's rights. I was brought up to support LGBT rights. Now both sides are saying that each oppresses the other.

That's why I suggested a solution that attempts to circumvent the question. But then I was called out for being condescending.

The problem with liberal reformist arguments is that they usually depict as one side as in the wrong, and thus the right thing to do is usually quite clear. I was brought up to regard both sides as right, and now both sides are saying that the other is wrong.

While I agree with your wider point in this post (it is a difficult and confusing situation and from an outside liberal perspective not always clear cut), the problem is you are using this thread to consistently argue against a strawman.

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17104 on: April 23, 2021, 11:44:02 am »
I always thought it would be more accurate to say the gender matches their sex at birth, as gender is by definition a social construct while sex is the biological designation? Or perhaps I am well behind the times there!!

Either way it is clear that there are double standards being held here. Jess Phillips clearly quick to leap in to try and point score against Trans-rights activists (indeed by extension transpeople themselves). Deleting without explanation is cowardly. I would love to see the reaction if this was done in an anti-Semitic context.

Cis also means you aren't someone with a non male or female biological sex - like an intersex person so it isn't just about gender.

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17105 on: April 23, 2021, 11:46:47 am »
Sian has a point, when anti-Semitism was a hot topic there were no calls of trying to purify the Labour party by expelling people who were guilty of it. It was just the right thing to do.

Yeah agreed. The fact is different people consider different social and cultural issues which they consider important enough to be above ppolitical games and strategising (whether that is anti-semitism or trans rights or whatever). The answer to this isn't to try and shut those people down but to try and find a way to engage with the issue.

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17106 on: April 23, 2021, 11:54:01 am »
Yeah agreed. The fact is different people consider different social and cultural issues which they consider important enough to be above ppolitical games and strategising (whether that is anti-semitism or trans rights or whatever). The answer to this isn't to try and shut those people down but to try and find a way to engage with the issue.

But there are bad faith actors. There are people who will only talk about it in a context that benefits them and they are seen as acting in good faith.

I used to think engagement was always the answer, I now genuinely believe that it wouldn't be with them.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17107 on: April 23, 2021, 12:29:59 pm »
The problem is the gender critical feminists use such disingenuous arguments that it is hard to take their claims of discrimination seriously when it usually (not always) appears to just be a mask for their transphobia.

The prime example of this is how they are constantly trying to conflate the use of toilets by trans people (which has not been an issue for decades) with the proposed GRA reforms which will have absolutely no impact on it.

That might be a problem in detail. The problem from my perspective is that I'm not personally invested in it, so I don't know the details of the arguments. I can't tell a disingenuous argument from a genuine argument. I grew up with the idea that the patriarchy has a predominance of power, and thus the movement against it is naturally right, and I can usually find the right path from this perspective. When the dispute is not against the patriarchal establishment, and I don't have a personal perspective, how do I tell right from wrong?

On the toilet dispute: the feminist argument, AFAICS, was that people who were born male could self-identify as trans female, and enter the safe space of born females who are physically weaker, and thus make them feel unsafe. With the recent murder case of a woman by a male cop, there was talk of how we men do not know just how prevalent fear is for women. That was simple for me; we of the patriarchy need to recognise the power we have but do not see, and we can do something about it. But what happens when feminists complain that the safe space they had fought for is being threatened? I'm not a trans, I'm not a woman. What happens when one says that not actively supporting them is actively oppressing them? My instinct is to say that people should be able to self-identify, but I can also see that women may want their exclusive space to feel safe.

Maybe the legislation actually involved more detailed arguments than that that renders the above moot. But I don't know the details, and the above argument is what I've seen.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17108 on: April 23, 2021, 01:55:10 pm »
On the toilet dispute: the feminist argument, AFAICS, was that people who were born male could self-identify as trans female, and enter the safe space of born females who are physically weaker, and thus make them feel unsafe. With the recent murder case of a woman by a male cop, there was talk of how we men do not know just how prevalent fear is for women. That was simple for me; we of the patriarchy need to recognise the power we have but do not see, and we can do something about it. But what happens when feminists complain that the safe space they had fought for is being threatened? I'm not a trans, I'm not a woman. What happens when one says that not actively supporting them is actively oppressing them? My instinct is to say that people should be able to self-identify, but I can also see that women may want their exclusive space to feel safe.

Maybe the legislation actually involved more detailed arguments than that that renders the above moot. But I don't know the details, and the above argument is what I've seen.


FWIW, whilst I usually find myself at odds with you, I'm of a similar opinion to you on this.

To me, the cause of friction/schism between feminists and trans-supporters seems to be on 'self-identification'. I don't recall any feminist opposition to trans people who have physically transitioned male-female, but rather towards those who are physically male and don't physically transition, wanting to be 'legally' (for want of a better word) considered a women (ie, toilets and other 'safe places' for women)

I struggle with getting involved in this debate here because it's too easy to stumble into an area that has you labelled bigoted or prejudiced, when that's totally not my intention.

What I do realise, though, is that these are the sort of arguments that turn 'ordinary voters' away from Labour and 'the left' in general.

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Isaac Asimov

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17109 on: April 23, 2021, 02:15:09 pm »
It's a good thing the Stonewall riots didn't happen now because if they did, you'd have people saying "this is the sort of thing that turns people away from the left".

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17110 on: April 23, 2021, 03:10:13 pm »
It's a good thing the Stonewall riots didn't happen now because if they did, you'd have people saying "this is the sort of thing that turns people away from the left".


Not really, and it's unfair to paint such a glib picture. Back then, bigotry and prejudice was not just common, but deliberately spiteful. Even people who perhaps didn't fully support the campaigns could easily recognise and accept that a lot of people were being discriminated against.

Society has come a long, long way. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. And we still need to continue the progressive path.

But campaigners and the topics campaigned on now seem different. When I was a lefty activist in the 90's, I was part of anti-racism campaigns, the organisers and participants of which were multi-race. The general idea of anti-racism was 'colourblind' - ie, that the colour of one's skin and racial background should be a total irrelevance to how people view each other. Now - and this seems an import from America - anti-racism includes demands for what appears to be segregation for different racial/cultural groups. The demands seems to be 'recognise me as a different race/culture but treat me no differently to anyone else'. It's counter-intuitive: "I'm different to you, but not different"

Similarly with the trans movement. There's been prejudice undoubtedly - the sniggering and jokes, not always discreet. But until fairly recently it seemed accepted that to secure the 'legal' (again, for want of a better word) rights of a woman, a trans person had to fully transition physically to female.

Now the argument is that trans people who identify as a female shouldn't have to physically transition to female to secure that 'legal' status. I lean heavily towards 'cis' women (I've only today learned WTF that means) who express alarm that a person who is physically male but self-identifies as a female, should have access to their 'safe places' and other 'legal' rights.

I don't view 'cis' women that hold that position to be bigoted. And I recoil at the bile thrown in the direction of such women by trans-activists. As do the vast majority of people I know. Why should trans rights trample over women's rights?

If I've got the position of trans-activists wrong, then please explain because I genuinely mean no offence.

"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " 
Isaac Asimov

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17111 on: April 23, 2021, 03:32:06 pm »
It's not a straight forward subject - there was a long thread on it last year that whilst very interesting didn't really make much progress.

The complexity and sensitivity of the issue is why somebody like Jess Phillips, who is increasing making a habit of acting in bad faith on this issue, inflaming things so that reasoned debate is impossible and causing great offence and distress to a demographic whose members are often very vulnerable, needs to be called out for what she is doing.


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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17112 on: April 23, 2021, 04:46:10 pm »
Thought this was qutie interesting... Sarwar continuing to impress while Starmer is stagnant. It may just be because we have an election and Scottish Labour are coming out with some interesting policies.

I don't trust Sarwar at all but he is playing the role of the 'adult in the room' and trying to put the indy debate to the side and focus on other non-constitutional issues quite well. It certainly puts him in contrast with all the other Scottish Leaders apart from maybe the Greens in that regard.

Europe Elects
@EuropeElects
UK (Scotland), YouGov poll:

Leader net approval

Sturgeon (SNP-G/EFA): +25 (-2)
Sarwar (LAB-S&D): +18 (+15)
Starmer (LAB-S&D): -21 (-1)
Ross (CON-ECR): -33 (-12)
Johnson (CON-ECR): -38 (+4)

+/- vs 4-8 Mar

Fieldwork: 16-20 April 2021
Sample: 1,204

Labour have lost Scotland.

I can't see them ever getting it back. Once you've been rejected that badly then I can't see any way back.

If Corbyn was Toxic in England, then he was off the scale in Scotland. Not all his fault, but you have to carry the can if your party fails that badly on your watch.
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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17113 on: April 23, 2021, 05:14:54 pm »
Labour have lost Scotland.

I can't see them ever getting it back. Once you've been rejected that badly then I can't see any way back.

If Corbyn was Toxic in England, then he was off the scale in Scotland. Not all his fault, but you have to carry the can if your party fails that badly on your watch.

Actually in my experience, Corbyn was pretty popular in Scotland - particularly ex-labour, now SNP or Green voters - until he started talking about Scottish politics, where his ignorance on the topic shone through.

Was thinking about Labour's popularity, and the SNPs earlier. The shine has definitely come off the SNP recently, I see more and more people talking about voting SNP until we get indy, and how they can't wait to vote for someone else afterwwards. Sturgeon isn't quite treated like the demigod that she was back in 2015.

However the indy issue rules over everything else, and it will take a lot for people to vote for a party which disagrees with them on the indy debate. And in Scotland, the Greens are basically the Labour party, but competent and properly left wing, without the infighting and they support indy.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 05:19:56 pm by Just Elmo? »

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17114 on: April 23, 2021, 05:16:26 pm »
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1384902050941652994

Apologies if this has been posted already but I found the name of the UKIP candidate in the London Mayoral election particularly ironic!


Sadiq Khan (Labour) 47% (-3)[/size]
Shaun Bailey (Conservative) 26% (+1)[/size]
Luisa Porritt (Liberal Democrat) 9% (+1)[/size]
Sian Berry (Green Party) 6% (Ė)[/size]
Peter Gammons (UKIP) 3% (+1) :lmao[/size]
Mandu Reid (Womenís Equality Party) 4% (Ė)[/size]
Other 6% (+3)[/size]
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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17115 on: April 23, 2021, 05:18:34 pm »
My goodness....

Cummings has just knifed Johnson in the front

Quote
Cummings told Johnson re refurb of No10 flat that 'his plans to have donors secretly pay for the renovation were unethical, foolish, possibly illegal and almost certainly broke the rules on proper disclosure of political donations'.

Quote
Dominic Cummings on what he told Johnson when  PM proposed scrapping lockdown leak inquiry

"I told him that he could not possibly cancel an inquiry about a leak that affected millions of people, just because it might implicate his girlfriendís friends."

The shite hath hiteth  the fan


https://dominiccummings.com/2021/04/23/statement-regarding-no10-claims-today/
ďHappiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.Ē
ďGenerosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.Ē
W

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17116 on: April 23, 2021, 05:20:39 pm »
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1384902050941652994

Apologies if this has been posted already but I found the name of the UKIP candidate in the London Mayoral election particularly ironic!


Sadiq Khan (Labour) 47% (-3)[/size]
Shaun Bailey (Conservative) 26% (+1)[/size]
Luisa Porritt (Liberal Democrat) 9% (+1)[/size]
Sian Berry (Green Party) 6% (Ė)[/size]
Peter Gammons (UKIP) 3% (+1) :lmao[/size]
Mandu Reid (Womenís Equality Party) 4% (Ė)[/size]
Other 6% (+3)[/size]

It's hilarious, but is it irony?

Isn't irony Farage being anti-French, and Mark Francois being a British Nationalist. 
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17117 on: April 23, 2021, 05:20:54 pm »
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1384902050941652994

Apologies if this has been posted already but I found the name of the UKIP candidate in the London Mayoral election particularly ironic!


Sadiq Khan (Labour) 47% (-3)[/size]
Shaun Bailey (Conservative) 26% (+1)[/size]
Luisa Porritt (Liberal Democrat) 9% (+1)[/size]
Sian Berry (Green Party) 6% (Ė)[/size]
Peter Gammons (UKIP) 3% (+1) :lmao[/size]
Mandu Reid (Womenís Equality Party) 4% (Ė)[/size]
Other 6% (+3)[/size]

Did you see COunt Binface is beating Laurence Fox in the polls as well. Fox has apparently spent £5mon his ccampaign as well (donated by some rich guy).

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17118 on: April 23, 2021, 05:21:14 pm »
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1384902050941652994

Apologies if this has been posted already but I found the name of the UKIP candidate in the London Mayoral election particularly ironic!


Sadiq Khan (Labour) 47% (-3)[/size]
Shaun Bailey (Conservative) 26% (+1)[/size]
Luisa Porritt (Liberal Democrat) 9% (+1)[/size]
Sian Berry (Green Party) 6% (Ė)[/size]
Peter Gammons (UKIP) 3% (+1) :lmao[/size]
Mandu Reid (Womenís Equality Party) 4% (Ė)[/size]
Other 6% (+3)[/size]

Brilliant if it's real  :lmao :lmao

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Re: Isnít this just the politics thread? Why so many name changes?
« Reply #17119 on: April 23, 2021, 05:22:02 pm »
It's hilarious, but is it irony?

Isn't irony Farage being anti-French, and Mark Francois being a British Nationalist. 
Fair point, what would have Prince Phillip said about my poor use of the word! :)
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