Topic: The 4312/442 diamond

[bas5times]

I know we haven't used it yet this season but for lovers of a back four this is what we want. Once Allen and Johnson return along with Phil I expect to see it.

In theory its perhaps our most balanced formation available. Still get width from the fullbacks and with Allen alongside Gerrard and Lucas you have someone who's gonn recycle possession alongside what Stevie can offer opening up the defence from anywhere. And of course we keep SAS together.

Thoughts?

[007.lankyguy]

If Rodgers is set on playing Suarez and Sturridge central and Coutinho as a number 10 then it's probably the 3-4-1-2 or this.

My preference would be the 3-4-1-2 and I think it would be Rodgers' too, for a few reasons. In a league where there are still a lot of teams who play predominantly down the flanks, the 4-3-1-2/4-4-2 diamond becomes vulnerable if a team attacks the wide areas and looks to switch play quickly. In that scenario the 4-3-1-2 can lose it's shape very easily. Teams who play dynamically in the wide areas can immediately cause a problem for that shape because it's a formation that is mainly based around the middle and creating a high density in that area rather than a balance across the pitch. In possession it's not necessarily a problem because you have the full backs moving high and Sturridge and Suarez making diagonal runs in the channels, plus whatever movements the lateral midfielders make. In defence it can become a problem.

What it often forces you to do is make sure that the two lateral midfielders have good mobility and work rates. You could play Henderson there which would help it out defensively but who do you play in the other lateral midfielder slot? Allen? Gerrard? If Henderson doesn't play at all then we might struggle because it would force Gerrard and Allen to play as the lateral midfielders. And even with Henderson, as soon as he is forced to go out to the wide areas then gaps open up inside because of a loss of shape.

I'd be interested to see it tried out though. I don't particularly remember a team playing it in the Premier League, maybe apart from Mourinho's first spell at Chelsea on and off.

[Macedonian Red Reborn]

I know we haven't used it yet this season but for lovers of a back four this is what we want. Once Allen and Johnson return along with Phil I expect to see it.

In theory its perhaps our most balanced formation available. Still get width from the fullbacks and with Allen alongside Gerrard and Lucas you have someone who's gonn recycle possession alongside what Stevie can offer opening up the defence from anywhere. And of course we keep SAS together.

Thoughts?

We don't have the midfielders to play it at a respectable level. Gerrard is already 33, and Lucas has lost some pace since his knee injury. Once Gerrard is replaced by a younger top class central/box-to-box midfielder in the future, we might use it.

[Schmidt]

We don't have the midfielders to play it at a respectable level. Gerrard is already 33, and Lucas has lost some pace since his knee injury. Once Gerrard is replaced by a younger top class central/box-to-box midfielder in the future, we might use it.

I'm not so sure, we can fill all of the roles in the diamond with Lucas, Coutinho and Gerrard, with one of Allen or Henderson in the other spot to add a bit of energy and tackling to the midfield. If we get the balance right we'd have something not too far from what we played against Crystal Palace, with Lucas dropping almost into a back three and Gerrard, Coutinho and another forming a midfield 3. We'd need Johnson back first for it to work though.

[GrkStav]

I'm not so sure, we can fill all of the roles in the diamond with Lucas, Coutinho and Gerrard, with one of Allen or Henderson in the other spot to add a bit of energy and tackling to the midfield. If we get the balance right we'd have something not too far from what we played against Crystal Palace, with Lucas dropping almost into a back three and Gerrard, Coutinho and another forming a midfield 3. We'd need Johnson back first for it to work though.

In the last two friendlies of Brazil, Lucas has been deployed precisely thus.

[GrkStav]

We could deploy it with Lucas, Gerrard, Allen and Henderson, the latter as the advanced tip, vs top teams, or with Lucas/Allen, Gerrard, Henderson and Coutinho, the latter as the advanced tip vs lower-caliber but tough opposition.

[Beninger]

Seems like if we see a 4312 or the 442 diamond, there won't be much of a change from 3412.  Either way it will probably end up looking like 3 at the back if the FBs push up and Lucas drop back in between split CBs.  I think 3 at the back has the ability to look a bit stronger than it already is with Agger coming back, as he can do the role Lucas would do if we only had 2 CBs.  You'll still have the FBs doing loads of running on the wing with effectively 2 CMs, a number 10 and 2 up top.

[007.lankyguy]

We could deploy it with Lucas, Gerrard, Allen and Henderson, the latter as the advanced tip, vs top teams, or with Lucas/Allen, Gerrard, Henderson and Coutinho, the latter as the advanced tip vs lower-caliber but tough opposition.

In my opinion Henderson would have to be one of the lateral midfielders. You can play him as the #10 but then you're very reliant on Suarez and Sturridge creating something individually (which they can do admittedly). I'd still worry about Gerrard and Allen being the lateral midfielders and having to cover across to assist the FBs in the wide areas - even with a quick player across the field with a hard work rate, you will still lose your shape when you're attacked down the flanks and that opens up space through the middle. I can imagine a team like Man City spreading play to their FBs or Navas to come forward in the wide areas as we lose our shape and then space opening up for Silva or Toure through the middle while we have to retreat.

[bas5times]

Seems like if we see a 4312 or the 442 diamond, there won't be much of a change from 3412.  Either way it will probably end up looking like 3 at the back if the FBs push up and Lucas drop back in between split CBs.  I think 3 at the back has the ability to look a bit stronger than it already is with Agger coming back, as he can do the role Lucas would do if we only had 2 CBs.  You'll still have the FBs doing loads of running on the wing with effectively 2 CMs, a number 10 and 2 up top.

Yes, pretty much. But I think the key difference is Agger or Lucas. It's what makes it a back 5 or a back 4. We are much more resilient with 3 centre backs but it is harder to control the game. In the 4321 with the 3 midfielders further up the pitch we could potentially take control of matches as we tended to do more last season. 

[Beninger]

Yes, pretty much. But I think the key difference is Agger or Lucas. It's what makes it a back 5 or a back 4. We are much more resilient with 3 centre backs but it is harder to control the game. In the 4321 with the 3 midfielders further up the pitch we could potentially take control of matches as we tended to do more last season. 

I think the issue of control might be remedied with the return of Agger and Coutinho.  I like our options though for the future.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Yes, pretty much. But I think the key difference is Agger or Lucas. It's what makes it a back 5 or a back 4. We are much more resilient with 3 centre backs but it is harder to control the game. In the 4321 with the 3 midfielders further up the pitch we could potentially take control of matches as we tended to do more last season.

Why?

[bas5times]

Why?

Pretty simple for me really, you have 3 guys who specialise in stopping them from scoring on the pitch as opposed to 2. But then we give up control in the middle of the park because that's where the extra slot has gone.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Pretty simple for me really, you have 3 guys who specialise in stopping them from scoring on the pitch as opposed to 2. But then we give up control in the middle of the park because that's where the extra slot has gone.

And these three players just stand on one spot, yes?

[ThePeetmix]

I like the idea of a 4-3-1-2 if we have Henderson as part of the midfield 3 as I think he's the only one we have with the legs to play the box-to-box role. Also allows Phil to stay as close as possible to Sturridge and Suarez and gives him good freedom.

However, 3-4-1-2 is also the best system for right now as our CB's are a big strength at the moment and against more direct teams, it's a the better tactic to use or teams that use wingers as a basis of attack. So for example, against say a Man City, Chelsea or teams of that mould who look to attack more through the centre rather than out wide, a 4-3-1-2 would work well as it's give better protection against the abundance of attacking midfielders they use and add more to the midfield. However, against your Aston Villa's, Southampton's, Swansea's etc who have a big threat from out wide or from the long ball over the top, 3 central defenders are very useful and there's less emphasis on a need for a midfield, so 3-4-1-2 is a more useful formation. I'd like to think that in time as a team we'll have the personel to go horses for courses and switch between the two systems depending on who we're playing.

However, I've never ever been a fan of an diamond midfield in a 4-4-2. It's just way too easy for certain players to get isolated. Seen it time and again when we tried it a couple of seasons back at Mansfield against much lesser teams.

[bas5times]

And these three players just stand on one spot, yes?

No

[bas5times]

I like the idea of a 4-3-1-2 if we have Henderson as part of the midfield 3 as I think he's the only one we have with the legs to play the box-to-box role. Also allows Phil to stay as close as possible to Sturridge and Suarez and gives him good freedom.

However, 3-4-1-2 is also the best system for right now as our CB's are a big strength at the moment and against more direct teams, it's a the better tactic to use or teams that use wingers as a basis of attack. So for example, against say a Man City, Chelsea or teams of that mould who look to attack more through the centre rather than out wide, a 4-3-1-2 would work well as it's give better protection against the abundance of attacking midfielders they use and add more to the midfield. However, against your Aston Villa's, Southampton's, Swansea's etc who have a big threat from out wide or from the long ball over the top, 3 central defenders are very useful and there's less emphasis on a need for a midfield, so 3-4-1-2 is a more useful formation. I'd like to think that in time as a team we'll have the personel to go horses for courses and switch between the two systems depending on who we're playing.

Yeah I think both work well in their own ways, even a lopsided 442 as well but I doubt we will see much of that.

[PhaseOfPlay]

No

So 3 at the back doesn't stop us from controlling the game then. We've played it 3 times this season, and in all three games, we had the most possession. The games where we had the least amount of possession (Swansea, United in the league) we played with 4 at the back. Our one loss in the league was with 4 at the back.

How do you explain that, in the context of your statement that 3 at the back means we don't control games?

[bas5times]

So 3 at the back doesn't stop us from controlling the game then. We've played it 3 times this season, and in all three games, we had the most possession. The games where we had the least amount of possession (Swansea, United in the league) we played with 4 at the back. Our one loss in the league was with 4 at the back.

How do you explain that, in the context of your statement that 3 at the back means we don't control games?

Simply because none of the centre backs can dictate the game the way a holding midfielder would alongside two other midfield players, and we can push further up the pitch more effectively, which would see us away from this more defensive counter attacking game we've been using so far.

[NaivetyinBlack]

Pretty simple for me really, you have 3 guys who specialise in stopping them from scoring on the pitch as opposed to 2. But then we give up control in the middle of the park because that's where the extra slot has gone.

One word. Libero. Let's see Agger back at full fitness and you might just change that thought.

[bas5times]

One word. Libero. Let's see Agger back at full fitness and you might just change that thought.

Potentially, yes. I don't know though, Agger is brilliant at bringing the ball out and all but I don't know if he has the other qualities you'd want in terms of passing range, decision making etc

[PhaseOfPlay]

Simply because none of the centre backs can dictate the game the way a holding midfielder would alongside two other midfield players, and we can push further up the pitch more effectively, which would see us away from this more defensive counter attacking game we've been using so far.

Except most of that defensive counter-attacking game has been with the back four, not the back three.

In the three games we played a 3-4-1-2, the percentage of play in our attacking third has been:

United - 32%
Sunderland - 27%
Palace - 31%

So really, only one of those games is a game where we truly played a defensive counter-attack. In the previous games with 4 at the back:

Stoke - 38%
Villa - 18%
United - 24%
Swansea - 21%
Southampton - 29%

Apart from Stoke on the first day, we've been playing more counterattacking football with a back four, than we have with a back three, and have had more possession with a back three, than with a back four.

How do you explain that?

[bas5times]

Except most of that defensive counter-attacking game has been with the back four, not the back three.

In the three games we played a 3-4-1-2, the percentage of play in our attacking third has been:

United - 32%
Sunderland - 27%
Palace - 31%

So really, only one of those games is a game where we truly played a defensive counter-attack. In the previous games with 4 at the back:

Stoke - 38%
Villa - 18%
United - 24%
Swansea - 21%
Southampton - 29%

Apart from Stoke on the first day, we've been playing more counterattacking football with a back four, than we have with a back three, and have had more possession with a back three, than with a back four.

How do you explain that?

Ok sir in your infinite all knowing wisdom lol, tell me what style of play have we been using when going 3 at the back if not defensive counter? Bar the game against Palace as that was a pisswalk.

And is it such a wrong thing to say that with 3 midfielders instead of 3 center halves we will have more control in midfield?

How do you explain that?
haha

[PhaseOfPlay]

Ok sir in your infinite all knowing wisdom lol, tell me what style of play have we been using when going 3 at the back if not defensive counter? Bar the game against Palace as that was a pisswalk.

And is it such a wrong thing to say that with 3 midfielders instead of 3 center halves we will have more control in midfield?

How do you explain that?
haha

But we DO have 3 midfielders. That's the beauty of the 3-4-1-2. You still have the same midfield triangle as in a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1. The only thing you lack is a second layer of width and the possibility of overlapping runs. But in terms of midfield control, you have the same as you do in a midfield three. Our only problem has been that Moses has been playing the "1" position like a forward rather than a mid. This will change with Coutinho, who should give a better balance of depth to the central midfield, meaning we can build attacks more patiently. But the assertion that we have been playing defensive counter-attack with the back three is incorrect, as the numbers show. We were more defensive before the back three, than with it, and we conceded more possession with the back four than the back three.

[-Daws-]

The central midfield hasn't even changed much. Effectively we have taken the two wingers from our 4231, put one between the defenders and one up top, so the midfield hasn't changed and as others have said, having Agger as a Libero rather than Skrtel will give us more depth and control.

[Upinsmoke]

I think the 4312 is the one for the future. It still means Sturridge and Suarez can operate like they are now. The full backs become wingers and Lucas from the midfield 3 would essentially drop so deep that the two cbs would split and he almost becomes the this cb. Coutinho still operates in the hole and Gerrard and Allen or Hendo are in the middle. It's like a hybrid of the 3412 in some ways

[Messiah]

Put any player in our double pivot spots instead of Lucas/Gerrard (be it Pogba, Schweini, Vidal , Gundogan, etc) still won't fix the fact that our defense is way too deep to accommodate Skrtel's style of play and the central attacking midfielder(Moses) is not a midfielder at all but more of a forward, leaving the double pivots exposed and stranded. Daws explained this perfectly in his other post in the other thread, explaining the concept of a compact central engine. Sure better and more mobile players help the cause a bit but it doesn't solve the main problem. A team simply won't be able to dominate the midfield area if a single player in the central engine of the team doesn't do his job correctly, let alone two or three.

Those of you that keep talking about replacing Gerrard or Lucas with more expensive toys have no clue that we would still have the same problems. Now a libero like Agger should go a long way in fixing the problem from defensive side and hopefully Coutinho from the attacking side. It'll be interesting what Rodgers does.

[Pinky_Bieber]

with three at the back our defence got to be deeper...otherwise one counter-attack and we are fucked

with three at the back our wingbacks need to be spot on...maybe Johnson and Aly they may add something extra

[PhaseOfPlay]

with three at the back our defence got to be deeper...otherwise one counter-attack and we are fucked

with three at the back our wingbacks need to be spot on...maybe Johnson and Aly they may add something extra

Why?

[Messiah]

with three at the back our defence got to be deeper...otherwise one counter-attack and we are fucked

with three at the back our wingbacks need to be spot on...maybe Johnson and Aly they may add something extra

Not true at all.

[Pinky_Bieber]

Why?

because they have to cover fullbacks areas as well

[rocco]

with three at the back our defence got to be deeper...otherwise one counter-attack and we are fucked

with three at the back our wingbacks need to be spot on...maybe Johnson and Aly they may add something extra

3 CBS especially with say Agger in for Skrtel will see us easily and comfortably play a high line

[PhaseOfPlay]

because they have to cover fullbacks areas as well

They have to do that whether there are three or two. You get hurt on a counterattack by the space you leave behind you and lack of pressure in midfield - whether you play 4, 3, 6, or 10 defenders. So your statement is incorrect. It's not the numbers at the back that create the counterattack opportunity, it's the space.

[Pinky_Bieber]

Not true at all.

how do you mean its not true? our defence is deep for a reason

[PhaseOfPlay]

how do you mean its not true? our defence is deep for a reason

Our defence was deeper with the back four than with the back three.

[Upinsmoke]

how do you mean its not true? our defence is deep for a reason

Yeah because Skrtel is too deep because he worries about the space in behind. If we had agger as the libero or Lucas coming that bit deeper between the two cbs then we'd be higher up the pitch

[Messiah]

how do you mean its not true? our defence is deep for a reason

Our defense is deeper than needed for this formation because of personnel. Sakho and even Toure can probably play the high line. But Skrtel cannot and it's been proven. Sure we're playing deeper to avoid getting hurt from counterattacks but it doesn't mean playing a higher line with the right personnel will still get us destroyed on the counter. Play Agger as the sweeper and play a more cultured CAM who is actually a midfielder instead of Moses (even Coutinho would do) and have the central engine/spine of the team (whatever you want to call it but I'm referring to the 2 pivots, the AM, and the libero) instantly condense their shape when the ball is lost and it goes a long way for preventing many dangerous counter attacks. Obviously it's not as simple as that as there are many things at stake but it would definitely help.

[paulred71]

Or u could play 433 like we did last time at Newcastle ?
That side was johnson Carragher Agger and Enrique Lucas Gerrrard Henderson Downing Sturridge and Coutinho. I'm sure Suarez Moses  Toure and Wisdom could replace GJ JC SD and PC from  that side.

What I really hope is that we never see a back 7 of Johnson 3 centre halves Enrique with Lucas And Gerrard. I enjoyed taking the piss out of my Everton supporting friends for their 8 defenders on the pitch, those 7 would almost be as bad.

[rocco]

how do you mean its not true? our defence is deep for a reason

its the players not the formation or under instructions to sit deep

[Wrigley]

We played some great football last year with 4 at the back, but I don't understand the unease with the latest set up, just from observations we seem to be finding passes a lot easier, and look more fluid, judging on this season alone we've looked a better oiled machine with 352.

[GrkStav]

Or u could play 433 like we did last time at Newcastle ?
That side was johnson Carragher Agger and Enrique Lucas Gerrrard Henderson Downing Sturridge and Coutinho. I'm sure Suarez Moses  Toure and Wisdom could replace GJ JC SD and PC from  that side.

What I really hope is that we never see a back 7 of Johnson 3 centre halves Enrique with Lucas And Gerrard. I enjoyed taking the piss out of my Everton supporting friends for their 8 defenders on the pitch, those 7 would almost be as bad.

That part in bold is breath-taking.