Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?

[smig]

And isn't it a coincidence that you have a certain manager with a certain away record at the helm?

All I can say is this team is much more better than what they are currently reflecting themselves off to be. I just think that they do their best at home FOR the fans and calling them cowards is not the right word. Just my two cents.

Was it not the same group of players by and large from last season who also had an appalling away record under a different manager? The players are as much to blame as Hodgson is for the rubbish which has been served up away from Anfield this year, half of them could not give a shite.

[Paragon]

Was it not the same group of players by and large from last season who also had an appalling away record under a different manager? The players are as much to blame as Hodgson is for the rubbish which has been served up away from Anfield this year, half of them could not give a shite.

I agree mate.

[The 5th Benitle]

Was it not the same group of players by and large from last season who also had an appalling away record under a different manager? The players are as much to blame as Hodgson is for the rubbish which has been served up away from Anfield this year, half of them could not give a shite.

Garry Birtles.

[smig]

Garry Birtles.

You'll have to run me through that one?

[jckliew]

Think its obvious we were missing Raul badly today........Luc/Raul wont have been cut open that easily

[Paragon]

You'll have to run me through that one?

He said it to me in another thread, he's either pissed or on a wind up.

[Jules Winnfield]

Garry Birtles.

that man needs to be put out to a farm!

[Mad Men]

When the secondary central midfielder (Gerrard) is NOT disciplined and keeps moving up the pitch, leaving the other CM alone...and the team is caught out by counter attacks leaving 3 v 1 (Lucas) scenarios as was the case against Bolton and Blackburn, what other outcome can you expect?

Any midfield WILL get over run, which is why Rafa, for all his stubborness, disliked playing 2 strikers up front AND Gerrard also in the side.

[The 5th Benitle]

You'll have to run me through that one?

Commentator on a stream a lot of us watched. You both have very similar views to him when it comes to Gerrard and Lucas. And Roy.

[smig]

He said it to me in another thread, he's either pissed or on a wind up.

Must be because we don't quite subscribe to his superior way of thinking pal, ahhh well.

[Jules Winnfield]

Must be because we don't quite subscribe to his superior way of thinking pal, ahhh well.

if you had heard the vitriol from the guy to Lucas without any constructive reasoning you would see why he is making comparisons.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=268701.0

[new-red]

Defo... Not just lack of pace in the team but for two seasons we have moved the ball around so slowly when attacking.  Slower than almost any other team in the Premier League.  I was watching today how easy it was for Blackburn to organise themselves when we attacked- they had so much time.

Pace would be very nice but it's not necessary. As long as players are moving intelligently off the ball with purpose then pace can be compensated for. Also, the more methodical build ups are very beneficial to the defensive side as well. If the CMs control the tempo of the game like this then its then the whole team as a unit can move forward together. Keeping the ball in the opponent's half allows the defense to push up and support the attack while not having to worry about the space in behind.

We really just need to concentrate on ball retention and off the ball movement. If we improve in these areas it will have a domino effect which will see every aspect of our performance improve. We need a different manager asap.

[GrkStav]

Was it not the same group of players by and large from last season who also had an appalling away record under a different manager? The players are as much to blame as Hodgson is for the rubbish which has been served up away from Anfield this year, half of them could not give a shite.

The heck they are. Joe Cole may be to blame, and many are calling him MotM (ffs).  Kyrgiakos gets eaten alive by Benjani; whose fault is that? Kyrgiakos's? Or the man who selects BOTH Srktel and Kyrgiakos as our central defensive duo?

Who's to blame for bringing in KUYT in lieu of Maxi when we're trying to come back from a 2-0 deficit? Kuyt?

Who's to blame for expecting poor Lucas, bless his heart, to be a one-man Central Midfield when defending? Lucas?

[scatman]

to be honest Smig, you complain about people not giving a shit and walking around like they don't give a fuck.

2009-2010 season - number one culprit, one fucking Steven Gerrard.

Crying like a bitch at Birmingham when Torres got subbed, only for Ngog to completely change the game.

Walking around the pitch as though John Terry had just shagged his missus. A large part of last years league position was down to him in as not being lower, but also down to him as in as not being higher.

If he so good and so GODLY as you fucking think he is, why the fuck was he acting like a bitch? why the fuck didnt he do his superhero act and take us into the Top 4? Why did he and his pal do their best to fuck off a manager who looked after his arse when he derailed our title challenge the season earlier because some Manc prick wouldnt play a song he wanted?

[smig]

Commentator on a stream a lot of us watched. You both have very similar views to him when it comes to Gerrard and Lucas. And Roy.

What, that Steven Gerrard is five times the player Lucas will ever be for this club? I think Lucas is a good player before people begin to accuse me of having some sort of agenda against him, but he'll never change a game like Stevie has done for us time and time again. I find it unbelievable how some on here are finding fault with Gerrard's game (the only man on the pitch who could have got us something from the game tonight) yet feel Lucas is exempt from any criticism whatsoever, despite him having little influence throughout the game. The lengths people will go to defend and find excuses for this lad laughable at times, even when he's played poorly.

[Jules Winnfield]

Walking around the pitch as though John Terry had just shagged his missus. A large part of last years league position was down to him in as not being lower, but also down to him as in as not being higher.

In fairness, its John Terry, can you be sure?

[The 5th Benitle]

What, that Steven Gerrard is five times the player Lucas will ever be for this club? I think Lucas is a good player before people begin to accuse me of having some sort of agenda against him, but he'll never change a game like Stevie has done for us time and time again. I find it unbelievable how some on here are finding fault with Gerrard's game (the only man on the pitch who could have got us something from the game tonight) yet feel Lucas is exempt from any criticism whatsoever, despite him having little influence throughout the game. The lengths people will go to defend this lad sometimes is laughable, even when he's played poorly.

You are STILL missing the point. Gerrard was all over the place, drive, energy etc.

That's great, in a free role. Not when he's meant to be in CM. Lucas had to do two men's work.

That's all we're saying, it's pretty simple and obvious really.

[hesbighesred]

One thing that did strike me today was Lucas losing his rag towards the end of the game. It's not often I've seen that - he's done it far more this season than for the rest of his club and international career combined - but it seems to me he looks a lot more composed with Raul beside him.

I totally agree with the problem with Gerrard in a 2 man midfield. Though I must say Lucas/Gerrard can be an excellent partnership - but it needs Gerrard's role to be CLEARLY defined. The problem isn't so much him in CM or him not in AM, but him in CM while still playing pretty much wherever he wants. We can't have our Gerrard cake and eat it - if he roams as he wants he will leave holes. If he plays disciplined, which he can do and do well, then we don't get him roaming. Either is an option - this half way house isn't.

But with Lucas/Raul, ignoring completely the Gerrard thing, there's the simple fact that, like Mash and Alonso, they just LOOK right together. They get each other, they are a pairing who are greater than the sum of their parts. Gerrard can be excellent in midfield, but he can also be excellent on the right or behind Torres - in neither of those roles are the current occupants anything like as good as Gerrard. Why (when Raul is fit again) mess up a part of the team that works in order to accomodate Gerrard, when Gerrard is such a vast improvement on the alternatives in the other roles he can play? This is speaking as a big fan of Ngog/Torres/Kuyt and Maxi by the way.

[hesbighesred]

Still, on the plus side no-one can deny he looks much more motivated this season. I guess that arm round the shoulder is working wonders.

[Jules Winnfield]

What, that Steven Gerrard is five times the player Lucas will ever be for this club? I think Lucas is a good player before people begin to accuse me of having some sort of agenda against him, but he'll never change a game like Stevie has done for us time and time again. I find it unbelievable how some on here are finding fault with Gerrard's game (the only man on the pitch who could have got us something from the game tonight) yet feel Lucas is exempt from any criticism whatsoever, despite him having little influence throughout the game. The lengths people will go to defend and find excuses for this lad laughable at times, even when he's played poorly.

Thats all bollox, Lucas has faults but to blindly talk as if we have seen a performance 5 times that of Lucas this season from Gerrard is rubbish. 2008-2009 yes but that is consigned to history.

He needs to toughen up, he is trying but he has a role and he does it, having people making horrid errors around like the centre backs tonight make it unfair to singel him out when he didnt make many mistakes himself

[steveeastend]

Lucas will be fucked against the mancs, I think he had to put too much into that game, without Meireles on his side he will have a very tough job with tired legs on sunday.

[jckliew]

But with Lucas/Raul, ignoring completely the Gerrard thing, there's the simple fact that, like Mash and Alonso, they just LOOK right together. They get each other, they are a pairing who are greater than the sum of their parts.

tHIS

[blert596]

Lucas will be fucked against the mancs, I think he had to put too much into that game, without Meireles on his side he will have a very tough job with tired legs on sunday.

Lucas will be out against the Mancs. Poulsen/gerrard midfield.  Then lets all have a laugh.

[scatman]

smig, Gerrard has not even had a performance we could call great by his standards for over 2 seasons, how can you still live off that shit? Look at his attitude for the last 2 years, even now under a manager he wanted, he's not exactly been superman. Lucas does have faults, however saying he is at fault for Gerrard's faults is fucking ridiculous. The fact that he's covering for Gerrard's ass when they play in central midfield is not.

He is indisciplined in that role, which makes him perfect in the hole. There having the freedom of the pitch puts him at his fucking best.

[smig]

Thats all bollox, Lucas has faults but to blindly talk as if we have seen a performance 5 times that of Lucas this season from Gerrard is rubbish. 2008-2009 yes but that is consigned to history.

He needs to toughen up, he is trying but he has a role and he does it, having people making horrid errors around like the centre backs tonight make it unfair to singel him out when he didnt make many mistakes himself

It's what he DOESN'T do from what I base my opinion of him. He doesn't dominate games regularly enough and he doesn't make things happen in an attacking sense, two things I like to think should be a prerequisite for a Liverpool central midfielder. We'll never get back to winning the very biggest trophies with players like Lucas in the first eleven on a regular basis. A great squad player, yes without question. But we need better quality if we ever want to challenge for the league title again, which is after all, surely our ultimate ambition? By no means do I think Lucas is the only problem in this team, the vast majority have needed a kick up the arse all season and Roy Hodgson is not the man to deliver it.

[Seebab]

Lucas will be out against the Mancs. Poulsen/gerrard midfield.  Then lets all have a laugh.

Not a chance. Lucas will rest tomorrow and be there doing the business as always.

[steveeastend]

Lucas will be out against the Mancs. Poulsen/gerrard midfield.  Then lets all have a laugh.

Why? Meireles will be back though, no?

[Breitner]

What, that Steven Gerrard is five times the player Lucas will ever be for this club? I think Lucas is a good player before people begin to accuse me of having some sort of agenda against him, but he'll never change a game like Stevie has done for us time and time again. I find it unbelievable how some on here are finding fault with Gerrard's game (the only man on the pitch who could have got us something from the game tonight) yet feel Lucas is exempt from any criticism whatsoever, despite him having little influence throughout the game. The lengths people will go to defend and find excuses for this lad laughable at times, even when he's played poorly.

Mate, you're wasting your time. The same people who will not see fault in Lucas invade every Gerrard thread with the same lazy bullshit. Like clockwork, they're obsessed. Lucas doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Stevie, even if he does move out of the centre circle.

[The 5th Benitle]

Mate, you're wasting your time. The same people who will not see fault in Lucas invade every Gerrard thread with the same lazy bullshit. Like clockwork, they're obsessed. Lucas doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Stevie, even if he does move out of the centre circle.

Obsessed? Says the bloke who says the same thing every fucking time, on every fucking thread.

[Seebab]

Mate, you're wasting your time. The same people who will not see fault in Lucas invade every Gerrard thread with the same lazy bullshit. Like clockwork, they're obsessed. Lucas doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Stevie, even if he does move out of the centre circle.

Oh Dear. The hypocrisy there.

[new-red]

smig, Gerrard has not even had a performance we could call great by his standards for over 2 seasons, how can you still live off that shit? Look at his attitude for the last 2 years, even now under a manager he wanted, he's not exactly been superman. Lucas does have faults, however saying he is at fault for Gerrard's faults is fucking ridiculous. The fact that he's covering for Gerrard's ass when they play in central midfield is not.

He is indisciplined in that role, which makes him perfect in the hole. There having the freedom of the pitch puts him at his fucking best.

Gerrard is not really captain material. He leads by example and it might as well be jackyl and hide or whatever. If he's playing well he lifts everyone. If he's frustrated its all over his body language. He starts getting visibly annoyed and in rare moments takes it on a teammate. Lucas and voronin come to mind immediately.

Neways I think our best formation sees gerrard in the hole or next to Raul with Lucas holding.

[Seebab]

Nice to go on RAWK to read some sensible posts on Lucas after hearing the bile on the television during the game. Astonishing how bad the commentators were.

[tboz]

The lucas situation can is like roy situation, if you believe like he does then all he needs is time and then we will become good.
Maybe lucas will become world class but at this moment we havent got time and in such an important posistion we cannot aford to hope he will whilst spurning the opportunity to cash in and bring someone better.
When i go back to the days of momo, with him he was aplayer who was very affective and still had age on his side, i thought benitez might have made hime more complete, then masch came, and lucas inthe end benitez cashed in on momo and put his faith in luas so far it has not worked. so we now need to do the same if we cant get a player without having sell one of the same position.

Whats poulsen going to fetch? therefore lucas has to be the next option.

[RJH]

The same people who will not see fault in Lucas invade every Gerrard thread with the same lazy bullshit. Like clockwork, they're obsessed.

Switch "Lucas" and "Gerrard" around and I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

[smig]

smig, Gerrard has not even had a performance we could call great by his standards for over 2 seasons, how can you still live off that shit? Look at his attitude for the last 2 years, even now under a manager he wanted, he's not exactly been superman. Lucas does have faults, however saying he is at fault for Gerrard's faults is fucking ridiculous. The fact that he's covering for Gerrard's ass when they play in central midfield is not.

He is indisciplined in that role, which makes him perfect in the hole. There having the freedom of the pitch puts him at his fucking best.

Rap, he remains the only player barr Torres who can change a game in our favour mate, and we're lucky to have him. The day Lucas becomes a player who can turn a game the way Stevie and Nando have for us I'll give him all the credit he deserves, but he never has, and the way people on here bang on about the lad, you'd think he'd won us the European cup single-handedly. He's a good player, but I can't help but feel his reputation on here has been borne from the stick he used to get, and people simply feeling sorry for him which has made them defend him to a stupid extent. He has improved, that goes without saying, but he's nowhere near as good as some on here would have you believe.

I agree that Gerrard shouldn't be played in the middle Personally I'd like to see him back on the right, but I'd be surprised if we ever saw that again! He's still most effective when he's played behind Torres as he loses a lot of his dynamism in the middle due to the structural nature of the position and the restraints it has.

[Visigoth33]

Lucas will be fucked against the mancs, I think he had to put too much into that game, without Meireles on his side he will have a very tough job with tired legs on sunday.

don't worry,Lucas is a duracell bunny and he is a tough cookie.

[scatman]

It's what he DOESN'T do from what I base my opinion of him. He doesn't dominate games regularly enough and he doesn't make things happen in an attacking sense, two things I like to think should be a prerequisite for a Liverpool central midfielder. We'll never get back to winning the very biggest trophies with players like Lucas in the first eleven on a regular basis. A great squad player, yes without question. But we need better quality if we ever want to challenge for the league title again, which is after all, surely our ultimate ambition? By no means do I think Lucas is the only problem in this team, the vast majority have needed a kick up the arse all season and Roy Hodgson is not the man to deliver it.

See now you suffer from the English disease of needing every fucking player to dominate in games.

I'll give you 2 midfielders who dominate games, Gerrard and Lampard. Throw them together in central midfield and they should dominate the world right?

How about I give you 4 attackers who should absolute dominate games as they do all the time - Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Adriano and Kaka. Oh yeah they dominated the whole planet at the World Cup in 2006.

Why can't you understand that its A TEAM, not of fucking superstars who want to do everything themselves, but a TEAM, who can take equal responsiblity. It's something the United midfield have done ever since the gradual demise of Scholes and Giggs. None of those fuckers in that midfield dominate games, heck none of them are even world beaters, but they play like a fucking team - Carrick, Giggs, Scholes, Anderson, Fletcher, can you honestly tell me any of those have been world class and done Gerrard-esque things in the last 4 years?

And as usual you have this fucking notion of a First XI, bollocks to a First XI, it's a squad game now, ask Slur Fungus and his 100 games in a row of rotation whilst United were winning titles seasons in a row.

[The 5th Benitle]

The day Lucas becomes a player who can turn a game the way Stevie and Nando have for us I'll give him all the credit he deserves, but he never has

He's a fucking defensive midfielder!

[smig]

Mate, you're wasting your time. The same people who will not see fault in Lucas invade every Gerrard thread with the same lazy bullshit. Like clockwork, they're obsessed. Lucas doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Stevie, even if he does move out of the centre circle.

You're right, I don't know why I'm bothering to be honest pal.

[scatman]

Rap, he remains the only player barr Torres who can change a game in our favour mate, and we're lucky to have him. The day Lucas becomes a player who can turn a game the way Stevie and Nando have for us I'll give him all the credit he deserves, but he never has, and the way people on here bang on about the lad, you'd think he'd won us the European cup single-handedly. He's a good player, but I can't help but feel his reputation on here has been borne from the stick he used to get, and people simply feeling sorry for him which has made them defend him to a stupid extent. He has improved, that goes without saying, but he's nowhere near as good as some on here would have you believe.

I agree that Gerrard shouldn't be played in the middle Personally I'd like to see him back on the right, but I'd be surprised if we ever saw that again! He's still most effective when he's played behind Torres as he loses a lot of his dynamism in the middle due to the structural nature of the position and the restraints it has.

We are lucky to have Gerrard, as we are lucky to have Torres, but can we negate the effect Lucas has on our team just because he is not Steven Gerrard or Fernando Torres. Lucas may be shit at finishing, and his timing of offensive headers is fucking appalling, but he is completely different to Gerrard (there should be no comparison at all) and the fact today that he's getting grief despite being our whole midfield is fucking astonishing.