Author Topic: The protest email to RBS.  (Read 8079 times)

Offline redprodigal

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The protest email to RBS.
« on: March 12, 2010, 05:35:00 pm »
Have looked but can't see this anywhere. It's the email to the RBS that's on TLW. Feel free to move if necessary but I think you should all look at this:

Dear Liverpool Supporter,

Please copy and paste the following email message, signing your name at the foot of the page and send to the names listed below at approximately 8pm on Wednesday the 10th of March.

To: -

<removed by RAWK admin>

CC: -

<removed by RAWK admin>


Dear Mr Hester,


Having reviewed the company accounts in relation to Liverpool Football Club and Parent Company Kop Football Ltd, of which there is approximately £237M worth of debt; it is clear that the business model operated by the current owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett is unsustainable.

Whilst I appreciate that any refinancing package deal is a confidential matter between the Royal Bank of Scotland and the current owners of Liverpool Football Club, it is also a very personal issue for many Liverpool supporters around the world. As a British Tax Payer and a Lifelong Liverpool fan, I can assure you that I am not happy that my hard earned money is being used to pay for the purchase of Liverpool Football Club for George Gillett and Tom Hicks.

There is an ever increasing sense of anger and resentment towards the the owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett, which is likely to turn towards RBS if the refinancing deal is extended in the coming months.

It is my understanding that if the Refinancing deal is renegotiated beyond July 2010, then a campaign in protest against the Royal Bank of Scotland will take place which will include Billboards with anti-RBS messages encouraging Liverpool Fans to Boycott RBS in a similar manner to the Boycott of the Sun Newspaper (please see below).

Debt Lies Cowboys &ndash; Spirit Of Shankly &ndash; Liverpool Supporters' Union

Anfield Road » Don’t buy The Sun

If your objective is "the long-term success of Liverpool Football Club" then I urge you to formally refuse any longer term refinancing for Hicks and Gillett, thus leaving the current obligations needing to be immediately repaid.

We as supporters of Liverpool Football Club are effectively paying the loan repayments for Hicks and Gillett, and as taxpayers have a "controlling stake" in RBS. We should therefore have a say in where our money is being invested.

The ball is firmly in your court.



Kind Regards,



Liverpool Supporter

Feel free to add to it.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 04:30:43 pm by Alan_F »

Offline No666

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2010, 05:37:13 pm »
TLW suggests not sending this to the press anymore if you're going to send it.

Offline redprodigal

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2010, 05:41:22 pm »
TLW suggests not sending this to the press anymore if you're going to send it.

What, you mean just the press?

Offline Robbies5th

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2010, 05:56:55 pm »
May I please ask a stupid question: If they don't refinance, would we go into administration?
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Offline redrockydennis

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2010, 06:15:53 pm »
sent it but got an unreturned email from the rbs people
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Offline NA_

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2010, 06:17:07 pm »
sent it but got an unreturned email from the rbs people

I only got a failure from the Public Affairs one

Offline exiledintheUSA

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2010, 06:27:51 pm »
May I please ask a stupid question: If they don't refinance, would we go into administration?

Thats not a stupid question and it is a very real possibility.
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Offline redprodigal

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2010, 06:51:29 pm »
May I please ask a stupid question: If they don't refinance, would we go into administration?

The general opinion seems to be that there is a strong possibility that the owners would be forced to sell at a lower price than they are asking and that there are willing investors out there who would be willing to pay a reasonable price for total control instead of a ridiculous price for a small share.
The other option is that we would still be stuck with our present owners, still with the massive debt, without any investment in the squad and without any chance of a new stadium.
Doesn't seem like a difficult choice but it's up to everyone to make their own decision.

Offline redprodigal

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2010, 06:54:33 pm »
I only got a failure from the Public Affairs one

Me too, plus the one at parliament.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2010, 07:00:19 pm »
Serious question - what's the strategy behind this?
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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2010, 07:20:06 pm »
Serious question - what's the strategy behind this?

I believe it's an attempted boycott of RBS in order to prevent them from refinancing the deal with G&H. The person who wrote up this email on TLW wanted to make billboards and to have a complete boycott of RBS similar to ours of the Sun. I guess it's just another thing to force G&H out and contributing to the effort rather than being the entire effort.
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Offline wiresnreds

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2010, 08:09:07 pm »
Good on him i say, its more than most including me are doing for the cause.
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Offline hijackie4

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2010, 08:23:27 pm »
are we advocating allowing the chance of putting our club into administration .Are you sure there are no mancs posting here

Offline redprodigal

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2010, 08:45:31 pm »
are we advocating allowing the chance of putting our club into administration .Are you sure there are no mancs posting here

1. It comes from The Liverpool Way website not redcafe.
2.  It seems like a plan to let the bank know how many fans are against the owners and to pressure them into finding new owners, not to put the club into administration.
3. Should we just sit back and do nothing and allow these 2 c*nts to drag our club into the mire even further?

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2010, 09:42:47 pm »
I believe it's an attempted boycott of RBS in order to prevent them from refinancing the deal with G&H. The person who wrote up this email on TLW wanted to make billboards and to have a complete boycott of RBS similar to ours of the Sun. I guess it's just another thing to force G&H out and contributing to the effort rather than being the entire effort.

I understand that but what's the strategy? Is there a fund for the billboards? Because RBS aren't going to bow to toothless threats. I read that this is nothing to do with SOS so is there a separate fund for these new billboards? 

I'd also be very, very wary of linking RBS to the S*n boycott. RBS are just a business who happen to be dealing with Hicks and Gillett. The S*n is boycotted because they lied about the deaths of 96 innocent people and slandered a lot more. Those lies are still being trotted out 20 years on despite court cases, Government enquiries and the tireless efforts of people like Phil Scratton and our own Nikki and Jim who put together HfD.

 If people want to argue for a boycott of RBS - do it on its own merits. Don't drag Hillsborough in this.
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Offline 4pool

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2010, 10:05:00 pm »


 If people want to argue for a boycott of RBS - do it on its own merits. Don't drag Hillsborough in this.

I concur.

Many people have worked on behalf of Justice for the 96.

Bank refinancing has nothing to do it. Neither should protesting the owners.

I have made my opinion known in a longer version to someone within the HJC.

This part is NOT on, imho:
" will include Billboards with anti-RBS messages encouraging Liverpool Fans to Boycott RBS in a similar manner to the Boycott of the Sun Newspaper (please see below)."

All we need is for those who mock the Justice campaign with their lies to get wind of this and add the"potential"  boycott of a Bank to their collection of things to hammer away at non Liverpool fans as to what we who fight for Justice are "really" like.


The TLW protest email would have been better with no reference to a Hillsborough type campaign against RBS. Just a boycott in it own right. If they really think they can pull it off.
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Offline shelovesyou

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2010, 10:37:03 pm »
Just email them.
The part about the s*n boycott is just an example of what can be achieved from a collective group.
It outlines the power of the boycott when taken on board. Is all.

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Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2010, 11:07:39 pm »
RBS and the media have seemingly taken note of this campaign.

Quote

Liverpool fans target RBS in email campaign to starve owners

• RBS chief executive receives hundreds of messages
• Threat of boycott if the club's loans are extended

    * Matt Scott
    * guardian.co.uk, Friday 12 March 2010 19.40 GMT
 

Liverpool supporters have begun a coordinated email campaign to the Royal Bank of Scotland warning of a product boycott if the taxpayer-owned bank provides a long-term extension to the club's £237m loans.

The bank confirmed there had been correspondence from fans but declined to expand on its nature. The business wire service Bloomberg reported that the bank's chief executive, Stephen Hester, has received hundreds of messages, each with a different individual's signature.

"It is my understanding that, if the refinancing deal is renegotiated beyond July 2010, then a campaign in protest against the Royal Bank of Scotland will take place which will include billboards with anti-RBS messages encouraging Liverpool fans to boycott RBS," the emails say. "As a British tax payer and a lifelong Liverpool fan, I can assure you that I am not happy that my hard-earned money is being used to pay for the purchase of Liverpool Football Club for George Gillett and Tom Hicks."

Although RBS did not express any opinion about the messages, the banking sector has always had concerns about the effect on retail operations of a fan backlash if institutions' corporate lending arms make life difficult for clubs. That did not appear to be the case, however, as fans were quiescent when Barclays made a stand over the stricken former Southampton owner, Southampton Leisure Holdings, closing off the club's overdraft and effectively pushing it into administration.

Paradoxically this time the pressure from Liverpool fans is for banks specifically to cause financial problems for the club. The campaign is an attempt to starve the club's American owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett, of credit and, if the bank refuses to roll over the club's borrowings, it could precipitate a financial crisis at Anfield.

Few lenders are willing to offer new facilities in the current climate and Hicks and Gillett have so far shown no great enthusiasm for injecting their own equity.

Hicks last year suffered the indignity of defaulting on the $525m (£345m) debt in his Hicks Sports Group holding company, leading to the sale of the Texas Rangers franchise and much of its surrounding real estate to an investment group including the club's president, the former pitcher Nolan Ryan, in January.

Despite that successful transaction – reportedly worth £310m – Hicks's personal wealth is estimated to have slipped in the past 12 months. Forbes calculated in its most recent rich list that Hicks had lost his billionaire status over the course of the year, now being worth $950m. Liverpool are currently exploring the market's appetite for a £100m third-party investment.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/mar/12/liverpool-royal-bank-of-scotland

Offline The Flying Pig

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2010, 11:28:50 pm »
Just the fact that it's in the press makes it worthwhile.
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Offline 24/7

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2010, 12:00:52 am »
Oh god.. "My hard-earned money". Liverpool Supporters. Pisstake Potential 101. Perhaps a different phrase would have been less open to being twisted, although hindsight is wonderful.

BUT it's an interesting move to make and maybe, just maybe, RBS will think about it - do they want the adverse publicity?

Well, if it has an effect it can't be all bad.

I'm not sure about this but would G&H allow the situation to get to the point where we are declared broke and go into administration? They want their spondoolies back as much as the banks do and would probably sell at a price lower than what they wanted just in order to minimise losses, no?

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2010, 12:08:15 am »
Just the fact that it's in the press makes it worthwhile.

Yes, well done. Instead of the Guardian writing more about the actual Billboard campaign, they're writing about a non-existent billboard campaign in support of action which I don't support and isn't supported by SOS (as far as I'm aware).

Fucking amateur hour. We should be talking with one voice and taking coordinated action. At the moment SOS are the best voice we have.
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2010, 12:34:47 am »
Please see

http://www.spiritofshankly.com/news/SOS-statement-on-RBS-Boycott-in-press.html

This is no doubt a well meaning campaign but has its flaws as already mentioned. If you read the TLW thread you'll see the lad who started it all had the best of intentions but is actually concerned that his Dad might find out.
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Offline 24/7

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2010, 12:39:18 am »
Please see

http://www.spiritofshankly.com/news/SOS-statement-on-RBS-Boycott-in-press.html
Nice response that Graham. I wish though that people, good intentions or not, co-ordinate their efforts as much as possible. Even if no other support for the idea is forthcoming, at least having tried will help focus efforts if they are still made independently of any other (already established) group. I know enough about that to feel confident in saying it.

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2010, 05:13:35 am »
Please see

http://www.spiritofshankly.com/news/SOS-statement-on-RBS-Boycott-in-press.html

This is no doubt a well meaning campaign but has its flaws as already mentioned. If you read the TLW thread you'll see the lad who started it all had the best of intentions but is actually concerned that his Dad might find out.

Proper statement that. Covers your bases well.

And yeah, I don't think the lad who started this seems to have any funds for setting up another Billboard campaign. The lad seems young though, said he was grounded and said his dad would throw him out of the house if he found out. At least there's some media coverage...
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Offline toholmen

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2010, 07:54:58 am »
Looking at this whole protest against our yank owners from abroad, it seems that every action that has been taking place uptill now has been less than fruitful. Hardly no media coverage from papers or telly.
I don`t say this to critizise anyone, it`s not my place, as he only thing i can contribute with on the matter is not byuying merchandice, e-season tickets and so on...
The protest the mancs are doing seems to get a helluva lot more attention in the media. Both papers and telly. I watched their match against AC Milan the other night, and the cameras where constantly showing anti Glazier banners, and fans waving green and yellow scarves. The next day the papers where full of reports about the protsest.
From Liverpool matches cameras has not been doing us the same favour, and the protest mostly goes unmentioned in the papers.
This is how this whole thing looks from Norway at least.
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Offline BobbyDavro

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2010, 08:00:17 am »
Jesus, and we wonder why the Mancs get the coverage and we don't.
They have a proper organsiation that is growing rapidly every day, multi-millionaire backers, City financiers and are talking about having a billion pound war chest.
We have schoolboys dreaming up stuff in their bedrooms.
And dragging Hillsborough into it in a "don't mess with us....look what we can do" way is scandalous.

I'm not sure the "...Not Welcome" Winne the Pooh capitising is required on the SOS statement either... but whether people like it or not, they're the best voice we've got, so anything like this has to come from them.
That's not to say they won't and haven't done half-baked ideas either.....but it would at least look more organised through them...and only by being organised are things going to be given consideration.

Offline redrockydennis

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2010, 08:28:32 am »
Jesus, and we wonder why the Mancs get the coverage and we don't.
They have a proper organsiation that is growing rapidly every day, multi-millionaire backers, City financiers and are talking about having a billion pound war chest.
We have schoolboys dreaming up stuff in their bedrooms.
And dragging Hillsborough into it in a "don't mess with us....look what we can do" way is scandalous.

I'm not sure the "...Not Welcome" Winne the Pooh capitising is required on the SOS statement either... but whether people like it or not, they're the best voice we've got, so anything like this has to come from them.
That's not to say they won't and haven't done half-baked ideas either.....but it would at least look more organised through them...and only by being organised are things going to be given consideration.

the mancs seem to have multi-millionare businessmen who appear to be manipulating the protest against the glazers into a way of trying to bring down the price of the club so they can run the club. red knights my arse, business heads with a good PR team.
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Offline toholmen

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2010, 08:35:05 am »
Jesus, and we wonder why the Mancs get the coverage and we don't.
They have a proper organsiation that is growing rapidly every day, multi-millionaire backers, City financiers and are talking about having a billion pound war chest.
We have schoolboys dreaming up stuff in their bedrooms.
And dragging Hillsborough into it in a "don't mess with us....look what we can do" way is scandalous.

I'm not sure the "...Not Welcome" Winne the Pooh capitising is required on the SOS statement either... but whether people like it or not, they're the best voice we've got, so anything like this has to come from them.
That's not to say they won't and haven't done half-baked ideas either.....but it would at least look more organised through them...and only by being organised are things going to be given consideration.
Seconded.

I can give you my wiev on the protest so far over the last couple of years, as seen from abroad...Much the same as the owners do i guess.
It may be a bit hash, but it is the way i have wieved from over here. And again i do not mean to belittle or insult anyone.

There seems to be no protest at all.It seems more a case of a few spoilt brats sulking away in some corner of the stand because they don`t get it theire way.
Either SoS has failed big time in making supporters worldwide recognize the seriousness of the current ownership, or the actions that has been taking place uptill now isn`t anywhere good enough. Of course it could be the case of  most supporters is happy with the current situation, but I find that hard to believe.
This is not ment to be critisism of SOS or fellow supporters, but just how i wiev this protest. Hopefully it can be a  help to those matchgoing supporters and SoS when they plan further actions.
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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2010, 09:49:53 am »
A flawed, ill informed, ill thought out and misguided e mail.
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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2010, 11:06:16 am »
Looking at this whole protest against our yank owners from abroad, it seems that every action that has been taking place uptill now has been less than fruitful. Hardly no media coverage from papers or telly.
I don`t say this to critizise anyone, it`s not my place, as he only thing i can contribute with on the matter is not byuying merchandice, e-season tickets and so on...
The protest the mancs are doing seems to get a helluva lot more attention in the media. Both papers and telly. I watched their match against AC Milan the other night, and the cameras where constantly showing anti Glazier banners, and fans waving green and yellow scarves. The next day the papers where full of reports about the protsest.
From Liverpool matches cameras has not been doing us the same favour, and the protest mostly goes unmentioned in the papers.
This is how this whole thing looks from Norway at least.

Same view from Malta's media.....although 99% of LFC fans in Malta agree unanimously that the ownership situation is a mess and that Tom & George are not welcome anymore!!
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Offline redprodigal

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2010, 11:19:55 am »
Seconded.

I can give you my wiev on the protest so far over the last couple of years, as seen from abroad...Much the same as the owners do i guess.
It may be a bit hash, but it is the way i have wieved from over here. And again i do not mean to belittle or insult anyone.

There seems to be no protest at all.It seems more a case of a few spoilt brats sulking away in some corner of the stand because they don`t get it theire way.
Either SoS has failed big time in making supporters worldwide recognize the seriousness of the current ownership, or the actions that has been taking place uptill now isn`t anywhere good enough. Of course it could be the case of  most supporters is happy with the current situation, but I find that hard to believe.
This is not ment to be critisism of SOS or fellow supporters, but just how i wiev this protest. Hopefully it can be a  help to those matchgoing supporters and SoS when they plan further actions.

Perfect English my friend apart from the word wiev which is spelt view  ;) but I think you are correct with many of your views. The part about our supporters being happy with what we have is not quite correct but there is a tremendous amount of apathy amongst our fanbase. I've said from the start that thousands of fans do not quite understand what is going on with the owners. Many do not bother with the facts. They just read the national newspapers and can't be bothered to go out of their way to support any protests. I feel sorry for SOS because the amount of support they have received is not nearly enough whereas the Mancs protest has gathered the support of the huge majority of their fans. Theirs is a well thought out protest. The wearing of a green and yellow scarf is a masterstroke, both simple and strikingly visual, so strikingly visual that every game they play it gets the attention of the TV cameras and the media in general, whilst ours gets very little coverage at all. Looking at the email in hindsight it is not a very well thought out idea but it has got the attention of the media, although sometimes an idea like this can be shot down very quickly and that can have a negative effect on the protest.
What else can we do, I don't know. I believe that the owners are desperately trying to get investors on board with the prospect of a new stadium in the near future but the more we fall down the league the less likely this will happen. And even if we get investment it looks like the money will go towards reducing the debt so where we are going to get money for the improvement of the squad I just dont' know.

Offline toholmen

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2010, 11:41:29 am »
The sad thing about the whole mess we`re in, is the fact that it seems the fans are getting more and more divided. Some wants to strip Gerrard of the captains armband, and are having a right go at Carra. Others want Rafa sacked and have a new manager in his place. All of this is taking the focus away from the big issue at the club, the owners.
Sacking Rafa or remove Gerrard as a captain are quickfixes at best, and I can`t see that this will benefit the club in the long run.
All the supporters should spend all their energy at trying to get the yanks out of our club. The owners are the greatest danger to this club in the long run. My worst nightmare is the thought of the two clowns we`ve got as owners going out to hire a capable manager....
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 11:45:39 am by toholmen »
Don`t argue with morons, they`ll just bring you down to their level and beat you on experience!

Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2010, 12:37:21 pm »
It would be far far more effective to lobby support within the Treasury Select Committe who the Bank mandarins (who sit on the Board of RBS representing the Government e.g. the people) report to.

There's an election coming and these MP's all need a popular cause. The Banks are very unpopular and we are poor football fans being abused by foreign investors.

All you need is one MP to pick it up and you'll have a very effective weapon to beat RBS with.

Members of the Treasury Committe, with their consituencies, follows and if you live in any of their areas, you can ask for direct access to your MP. Please believe me, these people are powerful and can call the Bankers to heel (I've used this lobbying process before and it worked). We're looking for their support, we're not having a go at them:

Member & Constituency & Party
Nick Ainger MP Carmarthen West & South Pembrokeshire Labour
Mr Graham Brady MP Altrincham and Sale West Conservative
Mr Colin Breed MP South East Cornwall Liberal Democrats
Jim Cousins MP Newcastle upon Tyne Central Labour
Mr Michael Fallon MP (Sub-Committee Chair) Sevenoaks Conservative
Ms Sally Keeble MP Northampton North Labour
Mr Andrew Love MP Edmonton Labour
Rt Hon John McFall MP (Chair) West Dunbartonshire Labour
John Mann MP Bassetlaw Labour
Mr James Plaskitt  Warwick and Leamington Labour
John Thurso MP Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross Liberal Democrats
Mr Mark Todd MP South Derbyshire Labour
Mr Andrew Tyrie MP Chichester Conservative
Sir Peter Viggers MP Gosport Conservative
From the Country of Liverpool

Offline xerxes1

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2010, 01:13:18 pm »
It would be far far more effective to lobby support within the Treasury Select Committe who the Bank mandarins (who sit on the Board of RBS representing the Government e.g. the people) report to.

Wrong. It would be equally ineffective.Why should a commercial bank loan, the terms of which appear to be being met be the subject of Parliamentary interference? It is those very interest payments which enable RBS to lend again.

Probably the most ill-considered action yet. And some wonder why the Mancs are getting the publicity.
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Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2010, 01:55:51 pm »
Sorry, whilst trying to ignore the arrogance is your response (you really do need to take a look at yourself, no wonder a few are no longer posting on here),  the reason the Mancs are getting more money is that they're a bigger brand, current champions, have the support of City based financiers, a PR company and professional marketeers. They obviously have a signficant amount of money at their disposal too. 

So, we need to think of a different strategy and the lobbying of MP's in a well worn practice and, with the election due, something we shouldn't dismiss out of hand. I am not saying it should be the sole strategy.

Adverse publicity affects the RBS brand e.g. their overall value. The LFC affair is of miniscule importance in terms of finance but its potential for becoming a thorn in Hester's/RBS side.  All we need is one of these MP's to pick up the gauntlet on our behalf and we would have a powerful champion on our side who would have access to all sorts of information.

And it costs nothing, other than a few emails and maybe a quick interview at their surgery.

We need to adopt an MP  - a 'people's champion' - as soon as possible.

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Offline xerxes1

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2010, 04:20:15 pm »
Sorry, whilst trying to ignore the arrogance is your response (you really do need to take a look at yourself, no wonder a few are no longer posting on here),  the reason the Mancs are getting more money is that they're a bigger brand, current champions, have the support of City based financiers, a PR company and professional marketeers. They obviously have a signficant amount of money at their disposal too.
So, we need to think of a different strategy and the lobbying of MP's in a well worn practice and, with the election due, something we shouldn't dismiss out of hand. I am not saying it should be the sole strategy. Adverse publicity affects the RBS brand e.g. their overall value. The LFC affair is of miniscule importance in terms of finance but its potential for becoming a thorn in Hester's/RBS side.  All we need is one of these MP's to pick up the gauntlet on our behalf and we would have a powerful champion on our side who would have access to all sorts of information.
And it costs nothing, other than a few emails and maybe a quick interview at their surgery. We need to adopt an MP  - a 'people's champion' - as soon as possible.

Anyone not posting will certainly not be down to posters posting the truth, but might be exasperation at nonsense.

The G&G campaign has gained "traction" because of an inspired idea from an internet chatroom, not the brains of City financiers.

Lobby MP's about what? That a bank has a commercial loan with a football club the terms of which are being met? That the interest that is being paid is helping to finance other loans to individuals, small businesses etc? That RBS should break their contract with G&H ( there will be an option to renew), plunge Liverpool into Administration, trigger a 9 point deduction and put dozens of hardworking LFC employees onto the dole like has happened at Pompey?

I don't doubt that your heart is in the right place, but i have tired of indulging hopeless causes.

G&H do need to leave the club, this initiative will not achieve that, is a waste of time, and makes us look clueless.
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Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2010, 04:42:59 pm »
Ha ha, your ability to patronise nearly matches your arrogance but, in the spirit of your post, I am sure that you mean well. (touche!) :)   
 
You miss the point. The threat to a LFC is potentially a national scandal that goes way beyond finances. Imagine the impact of LFC going into adminstration? The damage to the city of Liverpool and to UK plce would be incalculable - that is political, not just financial, and the sooner we grasp this opportunity, the better.   Without wishing to be rude, it is apparent that you have no knowledge of political lobbying; I do and its powerful e.g. any one of of the MP's I listed could pick up the phone to Hester and get put straight through. Who else could claim that? 

We are devoid of ideas. We are talking of mirroring what the Mancs of done, but all we'll achieve is to 'confirm' that we are second rate (compared to them) and, worst of all for Scouseland, devoid of our own ideas.

We need to consider all options and that includes (to the exclusion of nothing else though) the lobbying of politicians.  It's cheap and the timing is right.

All we need to do is to identify the message we want passed on. Threats wont work. We need to get RBS on our side e.g.  'the people'.  Do not over-estimate the financial imperative, the brand of RBS is far far more important.

I am willing to help, if required, as its part of what I do.  Once we have the message, the next thing we'd need to do is develop a lobbying strategy.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 04:45:23 pm by Sir Roger Hunt »
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Offline xerxes1

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2010, 06:18:12 pm »
Ha ha, your ability to patronise nearly matches your arrogance but, in the spirit of your post, I am sure that you mean well. (touche!) :)   
 
You miss the point. The threat to a LFC is potentially a national scandal that goes way beyond finances. Imagine the impact of LFC going into adminstration? The damage to the city of Liverpool and to UK plce would be incalculable - that is political, not just financial, and the sooner we grasp this opportunity, the better.   Without wishing to be rude, it is apparent that you have no knowledge of political lobbying; I do and its powerful e.g. any one of of the MP's I listed could pick up the phone to Hester and get put straight through. Who else could claim that?
We are devoid of ideas. We are talking of mirroring what the Mancs of done, but all we'll achieve is to 'confirm' that we are second rate (compared to them) and, worst of all for Scouseland, devoid of our own ideas. We need to consider all options and that includes (to the exclusion of nothing else though) the lobbying of politicians.  It's cheap and the timing is right.All we need to do is to identify the message we want passed on. Threats wont work. We need to get RBS on our side e.g.  'the people'.  Do not over-estimate the financial imperative, the brand of RBS is far far more important.I am willing to help, if required, as its part of what I do.  Once we have the message, the next thing we'd need to do is develop a lobbying strategy.

On a positive note we both have the same objective, ridding ourselve of G&H, the debate is on the best way to do it.

I am relieved that you have lobbying experience.That is not the point. The point is the strength of your proposition, which for reasons that I have explained is fundamentally flawed.If an MP picked up the phone as you are suggesting he would indeed be put through- and be met with gales of laughter. RBS are not the problem. G&H are.

You ask me to consider the nightmare of Administration- whilst taking a course of action that , if succesful, would do just that. That is the "second rate" thinking that we must avoid.

I could dress all this up.I am sorry it may come over as arrogant.It is intended to help.
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Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2010, 08:06:36 pm »
The fact that I'm thinking now that you probably have a beard and wear women's clothing when you type your posts has taken the sting out of your barbs ...but, hey, that's just the way I deal with difficulties so don't take it personally, please..... :)

Anyway, back to the point.

And you prove my point very well.

First of all, if the Chairman of the Treasury Select Committee (or any of the Committee's MP's) called, he (they) would be put through to Hester.

If the Chairman of the TSC asked what Hester's intentions were with regards to the LFC loan, he probably say that he didn't know but he'd find out. Then he'd ask why was the Chairman of the TSC so interested in this particular loan.

The answer, to anyone working with politicians, would be obvious:

1.   Internationally renowned UK brand (us) goes into adminstration. The humiliation would be widespread and NOT confined to Liverpool fans;
2.   As the Bank funding the club is owned by the UK government (people) that is a RISK that it could rebound onto the Government. Ministers are Risk Managers;
3.   Some of the Merseyside constituencies are 'borderline' and could swing either way at an election. The incumbent Government MIGHT lose seats on Merseyside if they're perceived to have done nothing to help. The opposition could WIN seats if they're seen to help (in the Wirral maybe). We're talking about 'hung parliments' now so we're talking about power;
4.   The club is owned by Americans and they could be (albeit small scale) collateral damage on the relationship between the two countries, particularly with the high profile 'anti US' propoganda going on down the East Lancs. This is something to be avoided, no matter what the catalyst, particularly with the relationship strained already post High Court ruling on CIA interrogation techniques;
5.  This is a 'difficulty' that can still be avoided if RBS do the right thing
6. RBS have the power to do something (we need to decide here what we want) and the Chairman will want to know what RBS's intentions are.
7. Oh, yes, it mightn't make RBS look that good either which, as its owned by the Government, wouldn't be nice.

And so on.  I could expand on all the aforementioned points til  the cows come home. 

Politicians are shit scared of adverse publicity and Hester works for politicians. All you need is the right type of subtle pressure (not threats, definitely not threats - but expressing 'concerns' is OK) and major 'problems' can disappear.

I know its trendy to be cynical about politicians but there are some decent ones out there who, I believe, would love to pick up the gauntlet for us.  If we played David v the H&G 'Goliath', it wouldn't be far from the truth and some MP's love that sort of challenge (Frank Field etc - although he's a blue I believe).

Even if I'm wrong, even if they tell us to feck off (although contemporaneous notes would be kept of all meetings and released to the press if warranted), what have we got to lose, apart from a bit of time? 

But this is not fanciful, this is the real world and its used on a daily basis by major corporations and organisations (Gurka's won their rights by political lobbying). Our challenge is much easier.

We need an MP with clout (and one keen to win votes e.g. all of them) to lean on a Bank (with not many friends at present) to ensure that they fight for the Liverpool community that supports LFC.

But, with the election probably on the 6th May, purdah will start at the end of March, so we will have to be quick.

Gosh, I wish all my lobbying challenges were as simple and straightforward!

(PS - only joking about the beard bit, sorry  :))

« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 10:33:21 pm by Sir Roger Hunt »
From the Country of Liverpool

Offline xerxes1

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Re: The protest email to RBS.
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2010, 11:41:49 pm »
Your grip on the facts is at odds with your status as a self-proclaimed experienced political lobbyist.

1.If we were to go into Administration a section of our support would be delighted, as it represents the quickest way to rid ourselves of G&H. The fans  would not be humiliated, opposition supporters would laugh ,and the majority of the country has better things to worry about. Ironically, your view that RBS should not refinance may achieve exactly what you say should be feared. Your position is inconsistent.

My personal view is that an agreed transfer of ownership without the bargain basement shysters circling the carcass is far preferable to the lottery of an Administration disposal.

2. The Banks are responsible for their own deals. A commercial loan, the terms of which appear to be being met, is an asset not a liability. Therefore there is  no reason for the Government  to interfere. Indeed for them to do so would be political, and commercial, suicide.

3.Of the electorate assume that  1/3rd , 33%, are not football fans and think, not unreasonably, that football clubs are run crazily, and a few bankruptcies would be no bad thing. Of the remaining 66%, 10% may support other clubs, leaving 56%, and half of those may be Everton supporters, leaving 28% Liverpool fans.

Even if your proposition  that RBS should not refinance was right, which it isn’t, by supporting a proposition  that allegedly helps (it doesn’t) LFC, a politician risks alienating 72% of the electorate. Your razor sharp political skills will have spotted that this is not an attractive proposition for any politician, let alone one in a marginal seat.

4.The idea that G&H still owning LFC represents a threat to Anglo – American relations is truly hilarious – and wrong.

5. RBS’s obligation is to lend money, at a commercial rate to people who pay it back. That is the right thing for them as a bank.

6. What we want as fans is pretty irrelevant to RBS.(Although your acknowledgment that you have to work out what you want is welcome).Their obligation is to ensure that the terms of their existing loan book are being met, and ours is. These loans  invariably come with an option to renew, and so long as G&H can meet the new terms, RBS will be contractually bound.

7.RBS looks good by behaving like a bank acting commercially and honouring its commitments to those who have honoured their commitments to them. You are right that politicians fear adverse publicity and as I detail in point three, getting involved in this is a good way for them to attract it. Your belief that this is  a cause celebre  just waiting to be picked up by the great and the good is therefore nonsense.

I don’t doubt your commitment to the cause, and your desire to “do something”, but backing campaigns which make us look stupid and cannot succeed is self defeating.

P.S. I don’t have a beard ,but find ladies lingerie very comfortable. ;D
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