Topic: Wrestling Thread (AEW, NJPW, WWE, etc) (*)

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Great match, and the right result.  They left a lot in the back too, had loads in reserve.

Spoiler

I do love a good time limit draw in a big match every now and then. Legit. It's a very good finish to throw in to your big matches maybe once every 2 years. Sets up good stories were by both the heel and face have a right to gloat from it in some way, or can tell a story of improvement down the line

[close]

[El Lobo]

Now I'm not quite sure what the equivalent would be in WWE in terms of personnel....lets say Edge Vs Roman Reigns. If they suddenly went 'big' to put that match on at the start of a show to get the crowd hot, and it finished with a double count out, the same guys saying 'thats fucking brilliant, a time out draw' would be shitting all over it. It doesn't keep them both looking strong, it makes it look like those in charge were too scared to put a loss on either of them but still wanted the 'rub' of having them in a match. Which is the sort of thing WWE have done for years and been mocked for.

AEWs definitely on a good incline right now and WWEs definitely going the other direction (although the new NXT style seems to be getting good reviews) but there's also no doubt those who want AEW to do well are wearing AEW tinted glasses in quite a few situations.

[Sheer Magnetism]

But it isn't Edge vs Roman Reigns, it's the world champion and a star who just came into the company in a non-title match. And how hot was that crowd, by the way? Haven't seen fans that into wrestling in at least a decade.

[Barefoot Doctor]

I do think there's an irony in people criticising WWE for putting PPV calibre matches on TV with little build up in a ratings grab, while praising AEW for doing Omega/Bryan on TV just two weeks after Danielson debuted.

FWIW, I think WWE are clearly reacting to AEW but that, surely, is a good thing. I can see a scenario where AEW starts beating WWE in the ratings, but the obsession from fans on who won in a certain demo has always struck me as strange. What matters is that there is finally competition, and that should benefit both. Like I said, WWE are clearly reacting and putting more effort into Raw and Smackdown. And AEW is benefiting from WWE too - Punk and Bryan would have been good gets regardless, but it's precisely because of their time in WWE that they are superstars who can cause such a ratings boost.

[Wild Romany Boy]

I still think WWE is too Roman heavy. He's doing industry best work right now - I'd put him above Omega - but if they want him to be the babyface driving the company, then it's not going to work. He's also clearing out a division because nobody is being presented as on his level bar a long since overhyped Lesnar.

AEW have options right now. Omega's reign, though I have had issues with it, has done a good job of getting things back on an even keel, and I can see a few superstars dethroning him; although, really, it has to be Hangman Page.

WWE reacted and put in a good episode. But, until they sort their booking out, they only have the Roman card to play, and The Rock as a real breakglass option.

[El Lobo]

But it isn't Edge vs Roman Reigns, it's the world champion and a star who just came into the company in a non-title match. And how hot was that crowd, by the way? Haven't seen fans that into wrestling in at least a decade.

Aye. Daniel Bryan and Kenny Omega = better wrestlers for sure. Edge and Roman Reigns = bigger stars for sure.

[tubby]

Aye. Daniel Bryan and Kenny Omega = better wrestlers for sure. Edge and Roman Reigns = bigger stars for sure.

Still sticking with your TNA version 2 shout about AEW?

[El Lobo]

Still sticking with your TNA version 2 shout about AEW?

Nah they're doing far better than anyone expected

Like BD says though there's definitely a certain irony with some people bigging up some of the stuff they're doing right now though when WWE have done similar previously and been slated for, and they do still seem quite reliant on signing people who WWE have built up. When that pool of disenchanted WWE stars dries up (and I suspect it already has now with Ambrose, Bryan and Punk) it'll be interesting to see how they maintain the obvious buzz they've had over the last few months.

I will say though....its still pretty similar to peak TNA, just doing it much better. And the white hot crowds I suspect as much as anything is how much of a malaise wrestling has been in for a good 7/8 years (at least) and now there's something half decent. Its great that people are enjoying wrestling but I'm really not seeing anything particular ground breaking or iconic, just obvious pops for people they havent seen for years (Punk) or have come from elsewhere (Ambrose and Bryan) and certainly nothing thats anywhere close to when wrestling was at its best with WWF, WCW and ECW all doing great stuff. Its more 'this is better than WWE' which doesn't seem like a particularly difficult benchmark.

[tubby]

Nah they're doing far better than anyone expected

Like BD says though there's definitely a certain irony with some people bigging up some of the stuff they're doing right now though when WWE have done similar previously and been slated for, and they do still seem quite reliant on signing people who WWE have built up. When that pool of disenchanted WWE stars dries up (and I suspect it already has now with Ambrose, Bryan and Punk) it'll be interesting to see how they maintain the obvious buzz they've had over the last few months.

I will say though....its still pretty similar to peak TNA, just doing it much better. And the white hot crowds I suspect as much as anything is how much of a malaise wrestling has been in for a good 7/8 years (at least) and now there's something half decent. Its great that people are enjoying wrestling but I'm really not seeing anything particular ground breaking or iconic, just obvious pops for people they havent seen for years (Punk) or have come from elsewhere (Ambrose and Bryan) and certainly nothing thats anywhere close to when wrestling was at its best with WWF, WCW and ECW all doing great stuff. Its more 'this is better than WWE' which doesn't seem like a particularly difficult benchmark.

But as a fan of wrestling, you want them to succeed and be a legit challenge to WWE, right?

[Riquende]

I do think there's an irony in people criticising WWE for putting PPV calibre matches on TV with little build up in a ratings grab, while praising AEW for doing Omega/Bryan on TV just two weeks after Danielson debuted.

Don't forget that the original plan was for Danielson (and maybe Cole) to debut at Grand Slam, it was just moved up because AEW were concerned that NY was going to go back to empty arenas and they didn't want big debuts to be in front of zero fans. What the original timescale was for the programme with Omega will never be known. It's 7 weeks until Full Gear and I don't know if we've got any another big TV shows before then.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Now I'm not quite sure what the equivalent would be in WWE in terms of personnel....lets say Edge Vs Roman Reigns. If they suddenly went 'big' to put that match on at the start of a show to get the crowd hot, and it finished with a double count out, the same guys saying 'thats fucking brilliant, a time out draw' would be shitting all over it. It doesn't keep them both looking strong, it makes it look like those in charge were too scared to put a loss on either of them but still wanted the 'rub' of having them in a match. Which is the sort of thing WWE have done for years and been mocked for.

AEWs definitely on a good incline right now and WWEs definitely going the other direction (although the new NXT style seems to be getting good reviews) but there's also no doubt those who want AEW to do well are wearing AEW tinted glasses in quite a few situations.

I think honestly part of it is having the actual time limit. If you know the match is 30 minutes long you can do a draw in a normal fashion so to speak. A double count out or a DQ usually means they did bullshit to avoid giving anyone a loss. A time limit draw is a device to tell you "These guys are pretty equal, they can't beat each other in the time. Maybe if you give them no time limit we'll find out who is best". It sets up the eventual rematch organically. Also considering one guy was a champion and the other a new guy, the rub goes to the new guy. They did a similar thing with Darby when he drew with Cody - it tells you this young up and comer can ensure against one of the stars of the company, pay attention to him.

It's something used extremely effectively in New Japan - in G1 you can have draws which means less points each, and can decide who goes to the final, it also how they act tells you all you need to know. Then there is draw title matches which tell a story - Kenny vs Okada 2 said they are both pretty equal, but Kenny was nearly dead by the end. The eventual rematch a year later with no time limit, no Kenny is the one with energy in reserve, and he wins - he has grown as a wrestler.

As with anything it all comes down to how they tell the story, and not going to the well too often that it becomes predictable, but I do feel it actually being a time limit not a bullshit fake finish works in it's favour.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

The best equivalent I can give in WWE is when 2 monsters destroy the ring and it is a no contest, which is always a cool spot - do it once every few years, tells you "These two monsters cannot be contained by normal matches", and builds up a future match were the score can be settled for certain

[El Lobo]

But as a fan of wrestling, you want them to succeed and be a legit challenge to WWE, right?

Oh sure, if they're not already a success. Its always been best when there's multiple options, and at its worst when its just been WWE and Vince basically doing whatever the fuck he thinks entertains people (usually fat jokes or being a weird pervert)

But it seems to be 'non-WWE pops' right now (as opposed to 'X-pac heat'). Everything being built up purely because....its not WWE so must be great. Its like the people who chant 'This is Awesome' when what they're watching isn't particularly awesome. Almost a case of 'who are you actually trying to convince?' because from what I've seen, its all decent enough stuff but again really nothing particularly great. The Punk debut? Great, but you can't really fuck that up (and his whole 'I'm so happy look at me, I'm dead happy cos I'm not in WWE like proper happy' shtick comes across like a dumped boyfriend). I actually watched the Bryan/Omega match on my lunch and fucking hell. I mean a decent enough match, shit ending but practically every single person in that arena trying to make out like its the greatest thing they've ever seen. The commentators especially (surely its time JR was put out to pasture btw). Maybe that's just an industry thing and everyone does it but I dunno, all just seems so try hard right now. When it was at its best the commentators, of which JR is obviously the greatest, just added to the excitement rather than sounding like a hoover salesman telling you why your nan should pay £6k for a Dyson. Genuinely not trying to piss on anyone's chips because they're doing far better than anyone expected and you enjoy what you enjoy, but it honestly seems right now that 'wrestling is pretty shit and AEW is less shit than WWE which is really shit' as opposed to 'wrestling is creating a major buzz right now and both companies are bringing the best out of each other'.

Maybe its just the wrestlers as well....but fucking hell they're all boring. I know none of us are 12 years old anymore and characters like the Undertaker and Kane and Mankind and Vampiro etc wouldnt really work, but there's no need to 'suspend your disbelief' which was much of the fun when wrestling was actually popular. I'm sure its moved on for the better (certainly has judging by the stuff coming out on the plane ride from hell!) but what its been left with is pretty much a bunch of interchangeable wrestlers doing the same promos, and the odd big pop when someone returns or wins a title.

[Riquende]

On the topic of Cody, how about that crowd reaction to his entrance?

And, you know... everything after?

[Wild Romany Boy]

Oh sure, if they're not already a success. Its always been best when there's multiple options, and at its worst when its just been WWE and Vince basically doing whatever the fuck he thinks entertains people (usually fat jokes or being a weird pervert)

But it seems to be 'non-WWE pops' right now (as opposed to 'X-pac heat'). Everything being built up purely because....its not WWE so must be great. Its like the people who chant 'This is Awesome' when what they're watching isn't particularly awesome. Almost a case of 'who are you actually trying to convince?' because from what I've seen, its all decent enough stuff but again really nothing particularly great. The Punk debut? Great, but you can't really fuck that up (and his whole 'I'm so happy look at me, I'm dead happy cos I'm not in WWE like proper happy' shtick comes across like a dumped boyfriend). I actually watched the Bryan/Omega match on my lunch and fucking hell. I mean a decent enough match, shit ending but practically every single person in that arena trying to make out like its the greatest thing they've ever seen. The commentators especially (surely its time JR was put out to pasture btw). Maybe that's just an industry thing and everyone does it but I dunno, all just seems so try hard right now. When it was at its best the commentators, of which JR is obviously the greatest, just added to the excitement rather than sounding like a hoover salesman telling you why your nan should pay £6k for a Dyson. Genuinely not trying to piss on anyone's chips because they're doing far better than anyone expected and you enjoy what you enjoy, but it honestly seems right now that 'wrestling is pretty shit and AEW is less shit than WWE which is really shit' as opposed to 'wrestling is creating a major buzz right now and both companies are bringing the best out of each other'.

Maybe its just the wrestlers as well....but fucking hell they're all boring. I know none of us are 12 years old anymore and characters like the Undertaker and Kane and Mankind and Vampiro etc wouldnt really work, but there's no need to 'suspend your disbelief' which was much of the fun when wrestling was actually popular. I'm sure its moved on for the better (certainly has judging by the stuff coming out on the plane ride from hell!) but what its been left with is pretty much a bunch of interchangeable wrestlers doing the same promos, and the odd big pop when someone returns or wins a title.

I shouldn't care, because it is just an opinion, but I find that every Omega and Bucks match gets half a star added, at least, over what I would have said. There is no way that the cage match was better than Walter tapping out to the sleep in my opinion. I am not buying that Kenny Omega is the well rounded star that Shawn Michaels was, because that is what Meltzer is selling me.

On the topic of Cody, how about that crowd reaction to his entrance?

And, you know... everything after?

I think he's smart enough to lean in to it, but Cody has created a company that's not for him. It's a weird dynamic. Him and Dustin had what was, in my opinion, just about the best match in AEW history, but he wrestles a very different style and he can't do what Omega and The Bucks again.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Cody's issue isn't his wrestling style, it's that his personality is limp to non-existent. It worked fine when the roster was tiny, but right now why should anyone care about Cody when there are at least a dozen more charismatic wrestlers there?

[Stockholm Syndrome]

I'd say Cody is in a pretty good position to be honest. He is EVP, he is seemingly a brand face with TNT, and honestly he has so far been the guy to put over the most future stars - his feud basically made Darby Allin, MJF, and now Malakai Black into significantly bigger stars. They may have had the talent to always be big stars but Cody was the one to actually do it for them.

Cody is in a position where by he will always be one of the bigger stars, whilst never having a title shot and never being overly hurt by any loses, so he is the perfect foil for putting guys over. And it's partly his company so he has an incentive to do so regularly.

I think he is pretty savy too - he is Dusty's son and been in the business longer than most despite his age. He knows how to be the face when he needs to be, be the heel when he needs to be, and isn't pinned down by either so can switch on a dime currently.

[Wild Romany Boy]

Cody's issue isn't his wrestling style, it's that his personality is limp to non-existent. It worked fine when the roster was tiny, but right now why should anyone care about Cody when there are at least a dozen more charismatic wrestlers there?

This is a promotion where Kenny Omega is the champion. It's not a lack of personality, it's just presentation. He does a lot of heelish things in it.

[bird_lfc]

Having got into AEW a bit more lately, I have to say I am enjoying it. At the same time I’ve seen a lot of decent stuff and improvement in WWE.

I’m guessing I’m in the minority and breaking the rules in liking BOTH shows?

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Having got into AEW a bit more lately, I have to say I am enjoying it. At the same time I’ve seen a lot of decent stuff and improvement in WWE.

I’m guessing I’m in the minority and breaking the rules in liking BOTH shows?

Nah not at all. I've stopped watching WWE a while ago, but to be fair I have heard the past 4 weeks or so have been pretty good shows. Some bad stuff (it is 7 hours of TV so it can't all be winners) but generally more good than bad.

[Lynx the saucy mynx]

I'd say Cody is in a pretty good position to be honest. He is EVP, he is seemingly a brand face with TNT, and honestly he has so far been the guy to put over the most future stars - his feud basically made Darby Allin, MJF, and now Malakai Black into significantly bigger stars. They may have had the talent to always be big stars but Cody was the one to actually do it for them.

Cody is in a position where by he will always be one of the bigger stars, whilst never having a title shot and never being overly hurt by any loses, so he is the perfect foil for putting guys over. And it's partly his company so he has an incentive to do so regularly.

I think he is pretty savy too - he is Dusty's son and been in the business longer than most despite his age. He knows how to be the face when he needs to be, be the heel when he needs to be, and isn't pinned down by either so can switch on a dime currently.

Cody’s biggest goal is to eventually buy his dads assets when WCW gets sold. Starrcade, The Great American Bash, but back Bash at the Beach. Full Gear has been positioned as a replaceable event, for when they buy Starrcade.

I don’t see Tony Khan buying all the wcw assets when Vince sells, but I can see them bidding for Starrcade especially. That’s why Cody makes a noise about it whenever they do The Great American Bash or Starrcade. Starrcade was dedicated to his sister, and The Great American Bash for him. He’ll want to win the AEW title at The Great American Bash one day.

[tubby]

Tried listening to Cornette's review of Omega vs Danielson because he apparently really liked it, but 10 minutes into a 20 minute video and it's just the usual non-stop slagging of Omega and giving him zero credit for anything in the match.

Glad I sacked him off a year or so ago, just unlistenable when he's talking about Kenny or the Bucks.  Or Japanese women.

[OsirisMVZ]

Apparently the co-host on that show said to Cornette "Kenny Omega could cure cancer and Jim, you'd give credit to the patient."

[tubby]

Apparently the co-host on that show said to Cornette "Kenny Omega could cure cancer and Jim, you'd give credit to the patient."

Wouldn't surprise me, I gave up halfway through.  He's just relentless in his criticism of those guys.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

It is funny that Cornette is apparently softening a bit on AEW in comparison, whilst simultaneously trying not to piss his fans off.

Almost like he is putting the feelers out for an AEW job but covering his back if it doesn't come.

Feels a lot like our Ex Players who get all buddy buddy on the team when a new manager comes in, but then get hyper negative when they don't get a job (Hamman after Klopp come in being a major example I can remember recently  )

[tubby]

AEW are killing him with kindness, Tony Khan was complimentary about him the other week, and the Elite guys aren't taking any of his bait.  No chance he gets a job there, though, not after all the shit he's said about the women in the company.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Btw Extreme Rules sounds like it was actually good wrestling with stupid finishes, and the video I saw of Finn flopping around like a fish as "The Demon's" heartbeat rang out, and then losing because the  top rope broke, may be the stupidest finish since the DQ in a HIAC a few years ago between Rollins and the Fiend.

It's hard not to laugh at how stupid this looks
https://twitter.com/BulletClubIta/status/1442321082464145414?s=19

Speaking of it, funnily enough Rollins talked about that HIAC match recently, saying he wanted to throttle Vince over it, and if the biggest company shill says that you know people must have been pissed by it

[tubby]

Btw Extreme Rules sounds like it was actually good wrestling with stupid finishes, and the video I saw of Finn flopping around like a fish as "The Demon's" heartbeat rang out, and then losing because the  top rope broke, may be the stupidest finish since the DQ in a HIAC a few years ago between Rollins and the Fiend.

It's hard not to laugh at how stupid this looks
https://twitter.com/BulletClubIta/status/1442321082464145414?s=19

Cole's commentary from that sounds just like Vince in the 90s, he was absolutely feeding him those lines.  I don't dislike it, despite the hokiness, and they timed him getting up with his music really well.  The thing that ruined that whole finish was the top rope rubbish.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Cole's commentary from that sounds just like Vince in the 90s, he was absolutely feeding him those lines.  I don't dislike it, despite the hokiness, and they timed him getting up with his music really well.  The thing that ruined that whole finish was the top rope rubbish.

The timing is fine, and the get up right after the music starts is actually good yeah. I think it's all a bit corney but whatever.

But the commentary, along with Finn just flopping about just looks ridiculous to me. And of course, a finish where a guy gets done by a rope just randomly breaking.

[Barefoot Doctor]

The Balor stuff looks stupid but then again I don't like supernatural stuff in wrestling - hated all the Fiend stuff. But I know it'll probably work for the younger audience, in the same way I loved Taker in the late 90s/early 2000s.

[El Lobo]

Fucking hell

[I've been a good boy]

Michael Cole's commentary is way past it's well by date. It just sounds so forced and fake.

[gazzalfc]

This came up on reddit yesterday for those talking about Coles commentary.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/pvsp9u/this_unforgettable_michael_cole_moment_happened/

Yes it was Vince in his ear that fed him the line. JR's face in the background says it all

[bobadicious]

This came up on reddit yesterday for those talking about Coles commentary.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/pvsp9u/this_unforgettable_michael_cole_moment_happened/

Yes it was Vince in his ear that fed him the line. JR's face in the background says it all

Id never seen that before. Actually laughing my head off. Typical juvenile Vince stuff there, but funny as hell because its so juvenile. How they all kept straight faces i dont know, especially with Vince probably laughing his head off down the mike.

[tubby]

Cole's face is incredible.  JR's says everything but how Cole managed to hold that poker face I've no idea.

Vince must've been crying in the back.  That's good shit, pal.

[tubby]

Haha wtf was that Arn promo about holy shit.

Great matches to open and close the show yesterday and the Dark Order stuff was exactly what you would hope for in Brodie's hometown.  No subverting expectations or swerving the crowd, just gave them the feelgood moment they were there for.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Haha wtf was that Arn promo about holy shit.

Great matches to open and close the show yesterday and the Dark Order stuff was exactly what you would hope for in Brodie's hometown.  No subverting expectations or swerving the crowd, just gave them the feelgood moment they were there for.

That's fucking Arm promo 



G1 ongoing and the most notable thing so far is they are booking ZSJ as an absolute monster technician tapping everyone out, really playing on him taking Naito out. I doubt they will but I would be very happy if they go all the way with him here, as he is a good style clash from everyone else - in a division of big guys who mostly strike, put in an expert at countering anything into a submission and it's such an interesting dynamic. And he has basically revived the whole Tag division for NJPW , an I love his arrogant Stewart Lee Persona, so he deserves a good main event push I feel.

[tubby]

Saw a couple of Zack's interviews, how long has he been doing this soyboy tekkers  gimmick?

Saw an interview with Danielson where he wants ZSJ, but in England.  That would be insane if they can make it happen, I know ZSJ already called him out too.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Saw a couple of Zack's interviews, how long has he been doing this soyboy tekkers  gimmick?

Saw an interview with Danielson where he wants ZSJ, but in England.  That would be insane if they can make it happen, I know ZSJ already called him out too.

As far as I can remember, most of his Suzuki-Gun run, although he didn't really get a good chance in interviews until the NJ Cup win (where he pronounced that he doesn't condone cruelty to animals, just humans) and the soi boi thing came up particularly when he faced Lance Archer because of course, he was the big meat eating American lad from Texas.

His moves have always been based off relatively obscure albums and British left wing comedian jokes - I know his Calf Slicer/Stretch Muffler/Banana Split leg lock submission is called "Orienteering with Napalm Death"

Tek.kers  I think in particular came around when he started tagging fully with Taichi to form Dangerous Tek.kers

[tubby]

I'm all for weird Brit references from our wrestlers.  Ospreay having a move called a cheeky Nando's is great.