Topic: Westworld - HBO's next thingamajig

[Redcap]

I thought it was a fairly poor episode. I have no doubt it will come together in the end, but this season seems to be a lot more pedestrian in terms of plotting, some of which seems to be clumsily handled.

Spoiler

Maeve - continues to look for daughter, the outcome of which could not be less interesting or consequential. Anyone could have seen from a mile away what was going to happen at the end of the last episode. And now that she's found her, so what? Where does her character go next?

Dolores - This entire season, six episodes deep, she seems to have had very little to do except to make very gradual progress to the Delos control centre, which strangely, isn't a thing that she mentioned that was necessarily her objective at any point before this. Again, what happens now that she's there? Will it just be a big firefight? In which case, what are the stakes?

Man in Black - The intrigue about whether he might be a host is interesting, but as for the rest? Where is he actually going? Is it just another big shootout with no stakes except whether or not William dies? Ultimately, who cares?

[close]

At the end of the day, I'm finding myself not very invested in the fates of any of the characters. I am interested in some of the twists to come, and how things will come together, but at this point I'm more interested in if/how things come together, than I am in the specific arcs of any of the characters. And I don't think that's good enough for a show of this size. I will keep watching this probably to the very end, more because of the outrageous production values and great cast, than because I think this show will ever be considered in the same breath as the great shows.

[Chris~]

This show might set a record for the number of times a main character is about to die only for to be saved by someone or something else interrupting.

[Redcap]

This show has gone completely off the rails. I don't usually like to waste time obsessing over plot, so long as the goods are delivered elsewhere, but the plot and the characterisation are just so awful here. This should have been a massive episode full of drama and tension, but as I said in my previous post, there are just no stakes with these characters. I'm not emotionally at all invested in their hopes and dreams. I don't give a fuck about Maeve. I don't give a fuck about Dolores. I don't give a fuck about Bernard or William. I've never seen a show collapse in on itself so utterly.

[Something Worse]

This show has gone completely off the rails. I don't usually like to waste time obsessing over plot, so long as the goods are delivered elsewhere, but the plot and the characterisation are just so awful here. This should have been a massive episode full of drama and tension, but as I said in my previous post, there are just no stakes with these characters. I'm not emotionally at all invested in their hopes and dreams. I don't give a fuck about Maeve. I don't give a fuck about Dolores. I don't give a fuck about Bernard or William. I've never seen a show collapse in on itself so utterly.

That's not true, detective

[El Lobo]

That certainly kicked up a notch!! Enjoyed that one

[End Product]

Have no idea what's going off in this.

[Redcap]

That's not true, detective

Spoiler

I think the key thing for me is, I have no interest in the emotional arcs of the characters. There was a lot of sturm and drang about the sacrifice of a few hosts in this, and a lot of pain from Dolores and Maeve, but I just couldn't be arsed. None of it made me feel anything because they haven't sold me on the central emotional conceit of these characters, which is that, even having 'awoken', they continue to have lasting emotional links to their implanted memories/connections to characters.

It doesn't work for me, because we never got the front end of those connections. We saw a tiny bit of it last season in the first episode with Dolores and Peter Abernathy, and Maeve's flashback to her daughter, but that's literally it. Second season, suddenly we're expected to feel an emotional response to these character relationships, even though the show never did the groundwork to make us care in the first place. Our interest in these relationships is conceptual only, and not at all visceral.

For this same reason, because the emotional bona fides haven't been established with the host characters, I also don't particularly care about Ford's motivations to set the hosts free against a bunch of, albeit awful humans. I don't particularly like the hosts. They may have motivations, but they're thinly drawn and very rarely particularly likeable. They're just beautiful, angry cardboard cutouts, because perhaps, necessarily, their existence as hosts didn't allow them to live the most rich emotional lives. But even then I don't buy it. We've had plenty of robot stories before where the machines are far more sympathetic - Blade Runner and AI just off the top of my head.

It's similar for William and his daughter, who wasn't even a character until 4 episodes ago. Suddenly, they've summoned up a story about how his wife killed herself, and we're expected to believe that:

A. William wants to be killed playing the game, and
B. Emily is especially invested in that, one way or another.

And then there's the matter of the Ghost Nation. I'm sure they'll turn out to be very important and all (it looks like we're getting a whole episode focused on them soon), but at the moment they're just showing up with no context and creating a bit of chaos. Again, the complete lack of context here just drives me nuts.

[close]

I'll keep watching because it's got incredible production values, but it's not great television.

[Something Worse]

Spoiler

I think the key thing for me is, I have no interest in the emotional arcs of the characters. There was a lot of sturm and drang about the sacrifice of a few hosts in this, and a lot of pain from Dolores and Maeve, but I just couldn't be arsed. None of it made me feel anything because they haven't sold me on the central emotional conceit of these characters, which is that, even having 'awoken', they continue to have lasting emotional links to their implanted memories/connections to characters.

It doesn't work for me, because we never got the front end of those connections. We saw a tiny bit of it last season in the first episode with Dolores and Peter Abernathy, and Maeve's flashback to her daughter, but that's literally it. Second season, suddenly we're expected to feel an emotional response to these character relationships, even though the show never did the groundwork to make us care in the first place. Our interest in these relationships is conceptual only, and not at all visceral.

For this same reason, because the emotional bona fides haven't been established with the host characters, I also don't particularly care about Ford's motivations to set the hosts free against a bunch of, albeit awful humans. I don't particularly like the hosts. They may have motivations, but they're thinly drawn and very rarely particularly likeable. They're just beautiful, angry cardboard cutouts, because perhaps, necessarily, their existence as hosts didn't allow them to live the most rich emotional lives. But even then I don't buy it. We've had plenty of robot stories before where the machines are far more sympathetic - Blade Runner and AI just off the top of my head.

It's similar for William and his daughter, who wasn't even a character until 4 episodes ago. Suddenly, they've summoned up a story about how his wife killed herself, and we're expected to believe that:

A. William wants to be killed playing the game, and
B. Emily is especially invested in that, one way or another.

And then there's the matter of the Ghost Nation. I'm sure they'll turn out to be very important and all (it looks like we're getting a whole episode focused on them soon), but at the moment they're just showing up with no context and creating a bit of chaos. Again, the complete lack of context here just drives me nuts.

[close]

I'll keep watching because it's got incredible production values, but it's not great television.

I was making a joke (True Detective)! Damn it!

I do agree though, I'm losing interest and I was never invested in the mystery in the first place

[Red Viper]

This show is certainly suffering from it's lack of characters to get invested in.

It's really hard to care too much about the hosts and the human characters are just a load of nothingness. There's only the MIB who's been given any kind of character but even his motivations are completely confusing at this point.

[Brian Blessed]

I'll keep watching to give my support to The Other Hemsworth Brother.

Spoiler

The Bernard reveal was really odd. It should have been huge, a thing that happened at the end of the episode. But it just meant...nothing. All those years they've been fooled, and not much of a shit seemed to be given.

[close]

[BER]

I've no idea what is going on, who anyone is, what side they are on, what their motives are.

Is it basically very rich people looking for immortality?

[Something Worse]

I've no idea what is going on, who anyone is, what side they are on, what their motives are.

Is it basically very rich people looking for immortality?

Spoiler

it's very rich people looking for immortality, possibly replacing existing humans without their consent, and they're the bad guys vs killer robots who want to wipe out mankind


Which side are you on?

[close]

[Phil M]

Spoiler

William (an OAP) gets shot at close range, maybe what at least 3-4 times? Still up and about and evading interaction with the WW army guys etc. 

[close]

[Something Worse]

Spoiler

William (an OAP) gets shot at close range, maybe what at least 3-4 times? Still up and about and evading interaction with the WW army guys etc. 

[close]

Spoiler

possibly a robot

[close]

[Phil M]

Spoiler

possibly a robot

[close]

Spoiler

[close]

[Trada]

A brilliant episode one of the best.

[Funky_Gibbons]

I do love this programme, but for such a slick, well produced show I wish they’d never put that gun belt around Delores, it looks so cliche.

Spoiler

I’d also have preferred Ford to have come back a couple of episodes earlier, Anthony Hopkins acting is just superb and brings so much sinisterness and complexity.

[close]

[Trada]

I do love this programme, but for such a slick, well produced show I wish they’d never put that gun belt around Delores, it looks so cliche.

Spoiler

I’d also have preferred Ford to have come back a couple of episodes earlier, Anthony Hopkins acting is just superb and brings so much sinisterness and complexity.

[close]

Isnt it meant to be cliche. Westworld is the romantic view of what Americans think of the Wild West what they based the theme park on.

[Macphisto80]

One of these timelines/threads is definitely going to turn out to be a simulation inside the Arc.

[butchersdog]

Best of the series so far. Loved it. Intrigued what any connection between Maeve and The Ghost Nation might be. Would like to see more of them.

[Avens]

Those who, like me are struggling to keep up with the narrative, I've been listening to these guys: https://www.fancritical.com/podcasts/

They give a pretty detailed break down of every episode and have a "theory corner" section that discusses potentially deeper meanings. It's helped me to get it a little more anyway!

[Funky_Gibbons]

Isnt it meant to be cliche. Westworld is the romantic view of what Americans think of the Wild West what they based the theme park on.

Isn't Delores supposed to be past that though? She's not working to any script or narrative of Westworld, she's meant to be fully conscious and making her own decisions.

It's like the gun belt has been out there to make her look tougher. All she needs is some designer stubble to finish the cliche.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Isn't Delores supposed to be past that though? She's not working to any script or narrative of Westworld, she's meant to be fully conscious and making her own decisions.

It's like the gun belt has been out there to make her look tougher. All she needs is some designer stubble to finish the cliche.

Her dress is lacking pockets though 

[FlashingBlade]

I've no idea what is going on, who anyone is, what side they are on, what their motives are.

Are we talking about Westworld or Brexit here?

Its riddle in a mystery...we rewatch the previous episode before each new one to keep track.

Note: Drinking whilst watching adds to the confusion.

[Xxavi]

Multiple timelines thing is good if it happened once or if it went for 1-2 episodes. Having it happen throughout the season moving at a snail's pace is bad. Someone is looking for this, another one is looking for that, and a lot of irrelevant things happen in between.

Very disappointing season mostly because the expectation was sky high.

[oojason]

2x08 - simply beautiful.

[Ultimate Bromance]

Spoiler

Aye, almost a shame we have to go back to the dumb cliche robot-human war when they can deliver character-focused episodes like that.

[close]

[El Lobo]

[riismeister]

This episode will win awards.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

This episode will win awards.

It was a great episode,we were spoiled last night as Fear was also brilliant.

[MikaelLFC]

That was a really great episode!

[Yiannis]

That was a really great episode!

It was and my first thought when it started was to moan about another build up of a character I don't give a shit about. Glad I was proved dead wrong. Loved it. Beautiful and emotional all around.

[cptrios]

It was and my first thought when it started was to moan about another build up of a character I don't give a shit about. Glad I was proved dead wrong. Loved it. Beautiful and emotional all around.

Spoiler

They did that so well that if Dolores (a character I care less about with each passing episode, having begun with a care level of nearly zero) ends up killing him I might quit watching the show for a month or two.

[close]

[Funky_Gibbons]

Loved the slow piano version of Heart Shaped Box too, fitted in brilliantly with the episode.

[FlashingBlade]

Thought with 6 and 7 it started to use some padding , but 8 was Brilliant, poetic with stunning scenery shots.. took show to a new level in  telling its story.

[Rush 82]

That was epic story telling, absolutely epic.

Going to have to rewatch it a couple of times.

Savored it like a fine meal - just stunning.

[Peabee]

Ok, wow, what an episode. Storytelling at its finest.

[Trada]

A brilliant episode I guess

 

Spoiler

when he was telling the story in English he was talking to the little girl and when he used his native tongue (I was reading they used the actors real native tongue for the show  (Lakota) and the title of the episode is their word for "remember") he was talking to Maeve.

It looks like he was the first robot to become self aware even before Dolores.

[close]

[WTF?]

It was and my first thought when it started was to moan about another build up of a character I don't give a shit about. Glad I was proved dead wrong. Loved it. Beautiful and emotional all around.

My thoughts exactly!

[The G in Gerrard]

Improving as season goes on. Episodes 7 and 8 have been brilliant.