Topic: Westworld - HBO's next thingamajig

[Something Worse]

Very good show, Maeve's dumbshit storyline made slightly more sense in the end.

No need for a second season IMO. Just like Jurassic Park, once the park is broken there's not much you can do with it.

[Xxavi]

It was great, I was expecting something more. Not quite sure what exactly it is I was expecting. Something a little more.

Hope we get that in the second season.

[Trada]

Very good show, Maeve's dumbshit storyline made slightly more sense in the end.

No need for a second season IMO. Just like Jurassic Park, once the park is broken there's not much you can do with it.

Well your out of luck I read they have already mapped out at least 4 series.

[Something Worse]

Well your out of luck I read they have already mapped out at least 4 series.

Be interesting to see if they can maintain the quality. I'd be pleasantly surprised.

[JLStretton]

5 season wasn't it!

[LFC Boy]

TV we are not worthy of.

[Flinstone]

Did Jonathan Nolan create this all by himself or is this some sort of adaptation?

[John_P]

Did Jonathan Nolan create this all by himself or is this some sort of adaptation?

Westworld as a concept is based on the Michael Crichton book and film of the same name. There's a sequel called Futureworld as well.

That's more revolving around the hosts malfunctioning and turning on the guests. All the sentience and the hosts becoming human is just in the show.

Loved the final episode, certainly opens up a world of possibilities for season 2.

[tubby]

Thought the final episode was good but the bunch of loose ends knocking around frustrates the hell out of me.

[Red_Irishman]

Class TV

[Yiannis]

Last two episodes were truly amazing and peaked nicely as a series.

Spoiler

As for Ford, I'm split about which one got killed. My initial take was that it was a host and that he wouldn't leave his creation like that but the more I read about the other scenario, I get more convinced it was the real one. His job was done, hosts taking over.

[close]

[Melbred]

Spoiler

As soon as the final piano piece came on - I knew it would be "Exit Music" - could not be more fitting.

[close]

[Melbred]

That was unreal.

Spoiler

Im going to guess that Ford isn't dead and that who died was a host of himself? That was the person he was creating when Bernard killed Teresa maybe?

Probably wrong mind, just dont want Hopkins character to die
 

[close]

Spoiler

Think that was definitely host Ford at the end. There was way too much of an emphasis on the handshake that version of Ford gave Bernard (it actually paused on their hands for a second or two). Earlier on in the season Ford stated that the easiest way to tell if someone was a host was by their handshake.

[close]

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Spoiler

As soon as the final piano piece came on - I knew it would be "Exit Music" - could not be more fitting.

[close]

Very lyrically appropriate.

Think they leant way too heavily on Radiohead for the soundtrack though, that was like the third or fourth tune they'd used by them.

[Redcap]

Very lyrically appropriate.

Think they leant way too heavily on Radiohead for the soundtrack though, that was like the third or fourth tune they'd used by them.

Spoiler

Street Spirit, No Surprises, Fake Plastic Trees and Exit Music.

Exit Music was by far my favourite use of music in the show so far though. Just a perfect scene.

Also doubly appropriate because Exit Music, which was written by Radiohead for the end credits of the 1996 Romeo + Juliet, which of course Westworld references heavily. Very meta.

[close]

[pmcgrath]

Spoiler

Street Spirit, No Surprises, Fake Plastic Trees and Exit Music.

Exit Music was by far my favourite use of music in the show so far though. Just a perfect scene.

Also doubly appropriate because Exit Music, which was written by Radiohead for the end credits of the 1996 Romeo + Juliet, which of course Westworld references heavily. Very meta.

[close]

Think it was actually 5 (but then can't remember Street Spirit being used). They also used Motion Picture Soundtrack in the scene where Maeve was shown round the facility for the first time - best scene in the series IMO

[aceface9]

Very lyrically appropriate.

Think they leant way too heavily on Radiohead for the soundtrack though, that was like the third or fourth tune they'd used by them.

Thought this too. Yeah we get it you're an obsessed Radiohead fan. It took away from the perfect placement of Exit Music. 

[Macphisto80]

Could you imagine them branching this out into the other parks and cutting back and forth between characters like they do in GoT? I suppose not, really, because it is called Westworld afterall but it would be cool to see.

[Something Worse]

Could you imagine them branching this out into the other parks and cutting back and forth between characters like they do in GoT? I suppose not, really, because it is called Westworld afterall but it would be cool to see.

Can't wait for JurassicWorld to show up

[Macphisto80]

Can't wait for JurassicWorld to show up

Dolores riding a T-Rex.

[Trada]

Glad the show was a big ratings hit for HBO.

The 'Westworld' season finale broke ratings records for HBO

http://uk.businessinsider.com/westworld-season-one-finale-ratings-records-for-hbo-2016-12?r=US&IR=T

[Xxavi]

Spoiler

The thing with Westworld is that it was a good show. Some things could have been improved, for example, the fact that William looked like a soft guy for most of the season and suddenly turned into a ruthless killer overnight was a stretch. A big stretch, he saw Dolores getting stabbed, and he went insane. Really? Could have been believable if he was bad toward everybody else, and was madly in love with Dolores, but no, he ended up becoming a Dolores torturer. So that part was not so solid.

Other important aspect that I didn't enjoy too much is excessive focus on Maeve. I was expecting and hoping that something bigger will come out of it, the only conclusion I got was that she is capable of making conscious choices, overriding her story arc. OK, but did it require that much screen time?

Especially if William's character evolution required more screen, cutting Maeve's screen time could have been a real solution.

[close]

[Xxavi]

Spoiler

Oh and those fight/killing scenes when Maeve is escaping... reminded me good ol' 80s when Arnie used to run around with a gun and kill 50-60 soldiers That was really poor for a show of Westworld's standards. Like all those pro guards coming one by one and being shot down by a bunch of robots who are not even bothered to hide.

Oh and maze thing. There was nothing too smart or philosophical behind it, then? OK, whatever its meaning, why hosts needed them to be drawn inside their head, under their skin? I am realizing that I am complaining about a show I liked, because it was nicely done, and there was some intriguing suspense to it at the time, but if think a lot about it, some of the things in the show was just very fake and pointless. Surely Ford didn't draw those pointless maze maps inside the heads of hosts to keep MiB busy?

Oh well, still the best show on TV. Really hoping season 2 is Samurai World.

[close]

[Phil M]

Tremendous finale.

[El Lobo]

Xxavi, how about you don't be such a clown and spoiler that for anyone who hasn't seen yet?

[Funky_Gibbons]

Wow.

[Redcap]

Spoiler

The thing with Westworld is that it was a good show. Some things could have been improved, for example, the fact that William looked like a soft guy for most of the season and suddenly turned into a ruthless killer overnight was a stretch. A big stretch, he saw Dolores getting stabbed, and he went insane. Really? Could have been believable if he was bad toward everybody else, and was madly in love with Dolores, but no, he ended up becoming a Dolores torturer. So that part was not so solid.

Well, he didn't turn into a ruthless killer overnight. It was over the course of a few episodes, starting with leaving Logan with the Confederados in Pariah a few episodes ago. But I do agree that the whole dynamic was a bit funny.

The way that I saw it, he was a romantic, and he thought that somehow Dolores was something more human than human in an artificial world - a perfect conceit - who could somehow save him from his loneliness. The combination of his experience being able to slaughter countless hosts, and Dolores forgetting him, made him bitter and jaded. Without Dolores to save him, only the id part of him was left, and he became an avatar of all the worst behaviours guests act out in Westworld. Westworld is a place that allows people to be a cowboy - shoot strangers, sleep with incredibly beautiful women and be the person that the real world doesn't allow them to be. William, after his formative Westworld experience, took that to the absolute extremes. But I think his trauma of losing Dolores in the first place stayed with him, even if just a little bit, because at the end of 30 years of raping and pillaging in Westworld, and a life not-lived with his wife, he still wanted to find something real in Westworld. Which is why he was so happy when the hosts turned on the guests at the end. But that's all me putting it together myself. It could have been done a lot better on screen.


Other important aspect that I didn't enjoy too much is excessive focus on Maeve.

In the end I felt okay about it, because the emotional payoff turned out to be pretty good. But I suspect if I rewatched it, I would feel somewhat similarly frustrated about all the Maeve time as I did in the first place.

I was expecting and hoping that something bigger will come out of it, the only conclusion I got was that she is capable of making conscious choices, overriding her story arc. OK, but did it require that much screen time?

Especially if William's character evolution required more screen, cutting Maeve's screen time could have been a real solution.

Oh and maze thing. There was nothing too smart or philosophical behind it, then? OK, whatever its meaning, why hosts needed them to be drawn inside their head, under their skin? I am realizing that I am complaining about a show I liked, because it was nicely done, and there was some intriguing suspense to it at the time, but if think a lot about it, some of the things in the show was just very fake and pointless. Surely Ford didn't draw those pointless maze maps inside the heads of hosts to keep MiB busy?

I agree. The most ridiculous thing for me in the end was why the MiB kept waffling on about finding the centre of the maze, when he already had a pretty damn good idea where it was when he went there with Dolores 30 years ago. I mean, he didn't know for sure it was there, but he would have had a pretty solid idea. There was no need to retrace his steps via random native American bartender, El Lazo, Armistice and Teddy. And even going that way, he wouldn't have actually managed to make it there in the end, if Ford hadn't just happened to have created the Wyatt narrative at the same time he was looking for the maze.

Oh well, still the best show on TV. Really hoping season 2 is Samurai World.

[close]

I've spoiler tagged your post because I think there may still be the odd lost person who might stumble upon the thread having not seen the final episode.

[vagabond]

Spoiler

A few questions I still have here:

Why was this the right moment for Ford to let the hosts loose? What was the difference between now and 35 years ago? Was it just that Ford was giving Dolores the chance to take her own decision and the fact that she did just automatically made it the right moment? (unlike 35 years ago where Arnold programs her to do it?)

Also, why wasn't anyone in the park concerned that the security fella is misisng? He went out to investigate something and never returned? Surely this should cause some alarm somewhere?

[close]

[Redcap]

Spoiler

A few questions I still have here:

Why was this the right moment for Ford to let the hosts loose? What was the difference between now and 35 years ago? Was it just that Ford was giving Dolores the chance to take her own decision and the fact that she did just automatically made it the right moment? (unlike 35 years ago where Arnold programs her to do it?)

Also, why wasn't anyone in the park concerned that the security fella is misisng? He went out to investigate something and never returned? Surely this should cause some alarm somewhere?

[close]

Re: your second question

Spoiler

He went to find Elsie only one episode ago. It would have been a bit pointless if they added a few lines of dialogue along the lines of: "but where's the Hemsworth brother when we need him?!

[close]

[cptrios]

Spoiler

Oh and those fight/killing scenes when Maeve is escaping... reminded me good ol' 80s when Arnie used to run around with a gun and kill 50-60 soldiers That was really poor for a show of Westworld's standards. Like all those pro guards coming one by one and being shot down by a bunch of robots who are not even bothered to hide.

[close]

Wait...aren't you the guy who's always railing against spoilers in the GoT thread? 

Spoiler

I think it's entirely possible that some/many of those security guards were hosts themselves. We've seen that happen already, after all. The whole escape was orchestrated to a T...why not that part as well?

I'm more or less with you on everything else, for the record.

[close]

[Melbred]

Spoiler

Oh and those fight/killing scenes when Maeve is escaping... reminded me good ol' 80s when Arnie used to run around with a gun and kill 50-60 soldiers That was really poor for a show of Westworld's standards. Like all those pro guards coming one by one and being shot down by a bunch of robots who are not even bothered to hide.

[close]

You need to spoiler this.

Spoiler

The guns that the hosts used were security guard guns, so they would have walked around to see why their buddies were shooting, not thinking they were hosts. Also because all employees "know" that hosts cannot hurt them, their first instinct is not not shoot. I think Bernard may have mentioned it in previous episodes in saying that they should be using voice commands first, rather than shoot on sight as it is costly for the business. Also, the fact that one of them was wearing a tech coat would have deterred them too.

Not that farfetched to be honest

[close]

[Something Worse]

You need to spoiler this.

Spoiler

The guns that the hosts used were security guard guns, so they would have walked around to see why their buddies were shooting, not thinking they were hosts. Also because all employees "know" that hosts cannot hurt them, their first instinct is not not shoot. I think Bernard may have mentioned it in previous episodes in saying that they should be using voice commands first, rather than shoot on sight as it is costly for the business. Also, the fact that one of them was wearing a tech coat would have deterred them too.

Not that farfetched to be honest

[close]

Spoiler

That doesn't explain them being entirely inept, reckless and stupid as a tactical response unit. They were A-Team villain bad.

[close]

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

You need to spoiler this.

Spoiler

The guns that the hosts used were security guard guns, so they would have walked around to see why their buddies were shooting, not thinking they were hosts. Also because all employees "know" that hosts cannot hurt them, their first instinct is not not shoot. I think Bernard may have mentioned it in previous episodes in saying that they should be using voice commands first, rather than shoot on sight as it is costly for the business. Also, the fact that one of them was wearing a tech coat would have deterred them too.

Not that farfetched to be honest

[close]

Spoiler

Nah they were awful. I think the first time they fired a bullet was when they shot the one outside the lift. They had them in their sights, even when their back was to them, and they just refused to shoot, even though clearly, people were getting lit up.

[close]

Amazing finale anyway

[Xxavi]

Xxavi, how about you don't be such a clown and spoiler that for anyone who hasn't seen yet?

OK, I did spoiler them now, but why would you come here before watching the season finale?

I am all for spoiler complaints, but after the show has been aired, there must be a safe place where it can be discussed without each post being spoilered. Very weird.

[Xxavi]

Spoiler

Nah they were awful. I think the first time they fired a bullet was when they shot the one outside the lift. They had them in their sights, even when their back was to them, and they just refused to shoot, even though clearly, people were getting lit up.

[close]

Amazing finale anyway

Spoiler

Which makes me think that the guards may be hosts, too. But there are so many contradictions even if they are hosts. Maeve seems to be able to recognize a host, and make other hosts do whatever she wants them to do. We saw that 1-2 episodes back. So if all of these guards are hosts, she could just command them to stop and join the forces or something. Instead, she is hiding, and letting her 2 robot recruits kill them.

There is no way getting around the fact that the particular scene was poor for this show's high standards. If the guards are coming with an idea that the hosts won't kill them, OK, fine, that is a valid excuse for the first casualty. But what about the rest? Some of them saw their buddies getting shot, yet they are like in a bad Stallone movie, they come one by one and take their time to pull the trigger Most of them end up dying by the time they run up close, aim, think about it whether they want to shoot

[close]

[Redcap]

I think it may possibly be the single best season finale I've ever seen.

There are not many seasons of television with so much left to do in the final episode that manages to somehow, against all odds, tie up 90% of loose ends and also deliver a real emotional punch in a show that's largely been emotionally vacant.

[sideshowme]

i watched all of this over the last week or so, finishing episode 9 just as episode 10 was airing.  annoyingly, i took my first dip into this thread (and any online discussion of the show) just before episode 9, so all the revelations were somewhat signposted for me, which definitely lessened their impact.

Spoiler

the two aspects of the series that worked amazingly well were firstly the ford storyline - the philosophical musings on consciousness and mind, power and responsibility etc, and also the smart way the show used its largely unchanging cast of hosts to pull the time period trick. it really was very well done. anthony hopkins was amazingly good as the kindly yet psychotic gepetto.

i didn't buy the william/MiB thing at all.  it will always be hard to sell an older actor as an older version of a character, but the suspension of disbelief fell apart just from the way they looked - no way was the MiB a convincing older mcpoyle.  it didn't help that the whole transition to the dark side was almost an afterthought, a bodge job to connect the dots to make the reveal work rather than a convincing sequence of action and consequence. so that was a big black mark at a pivotal point.

the other big problem with the show was the maeve storyline (appropriately frequently misspelled as mauve given the purpleness of much of the writing). she was never a convincing character, and again the whiff of lazy narrative convenience coming off the ostensibly smart people who interacted with her to facilitate her escape.  it was long-winded and nonsensical, and out of place with the smartness of the rest of the show. the final episode escape sequence, where the show descended into full-on tits'n'robots action movie was frustratingly out of sync with the better parts of the show too.

(warning: very geeky bit below):
possibly my favourite thing in the series though was the use of music, and despite the above paragraph, that mostly relates to the maeve storyline. it's easy for lyrical music choices to be too on-the-nose, but the genius here was that the absence of lyrics made me think about the words even more, and they could not be more thematically relevant.  so we had maeve waking up to a song featuring the lyrics "bring down the government, they don't speak for us", and the plaintive cry "get me out of here!"; and then on another day "i can't help the feeling, i could blow through the ceiling, if i just turned and ran". and then walking through the facility to the line (later repeated by a character) "i will see you in the next life".

perhaps most heartbreaking for maeve given her final scene is the bit that was (deliberately?) left out of the vocal melody in the soundtrack version of 'a forest': "the girl was never there, it's always the same; i'm running towards nothing, again and again and again..."

and much as it's the ultimate soundtrack cliche to play 'exit music' at the end of a show (as 'black mirror' also did just a few months ago), there was something beautifully apt about a host uprising marked with the 'words' "we hope your rules and wisdom choke you..."
[/geek]

i'm interested in where the story can go from here, as the enclosed, repetitive (in time and space) nature of the world was one of the main features. i am most concerned that a second season will be more dull action sequences and less of the cerebral stuff that hopkins's character brought to the table. the whole thing could easily turn into yet another sci-fi dystopia we've seen a million times before, just with more swearing and nudity.

[close]

[Trada]

i watched all of this over the last week or so, finishing episode 9 just as episode 10 was airing.  annoyingly, i took my first dip into this thread (and any online discussion of the show) just before episode 9, so all the revelations were somewhat signposted for me, which definitely lessened their impact.

Its the kind of show you want them to do a Netflix on and release the whole series at once.

So you watch the show quickly without thinking of everyone's ideals you have been reading for weeks.

Spoiler

I think a lot more people would have been shocked by the 2 time lines etc.

[close]

[Something Worse]

i watched all of this over the last week or so, finishing episode 9 just as episode 10 was airing.  annoyingly, i took my first dip into this thread (and any online discussion of the show) just before episode 9, so all the revelations were somewhat signposted for me, which definitely lessened their impact.

Spoiler

the two aspects of the series that worked amazingly well were firstly the ford storyline - the philosophical musings on consciousness and mind, power and responsibility etc, and also the smart way the show used its largely unchanging cast of hosts to pull the time period trick. it really was very well done. anthony hopkins was amazingly good as the kindly yet psychotic gepetto.

i didn't buy the william/MiB thing at all.  it will always be hard to sell an older actor as an older version of a character, but the suspension of disbelief fell apart just from the way they looked - no way was the MiB a convincing older mcpoyle.  it didn't help that the whole transition to the dark side was almost an afterthought, a bodge job to connect the dots to make the reveal work rather than a convincing sequence of action and consequence. so that was a big black mark at a pivotal point.

the other big problem with the show was the maeve storyline (appropriately frequently misspelled as mauve given the purpleness of much of the writing). she was never a convincing character, and again the whiff of lazy narrative convenience coming off the ostensibly smart people who interacted with her to facilitate her escape.  it was long-winded and nonsensical, and out of place with the smartness of the rest of the show. the final episode escape sequence, where the show descended into full-on tits'n'robots action movie was frustratingly out of sync with the better parts of the show too.

(warning: very geeky bit below):
possibly my favourite thing in the series though was the use of music, and despite the above paragraph, that mostly relates to the maeve storyline. it's easy for lyrical music choices to be too on-the-nose, but the genius here was that the absence of lyrics made me think about the words even more, and they could not be more thematically relevant.  so we had maeve waking up to a song featuring the lyrics "bring down the government, they don't speak for us", and the plaintive cry "get me out of here!"; and then on another day "i can't help the feeling, i could blow through the ceiling, if i just turned and ran". and then walking through the facility to the line (later repeated by a character) "i will see you in the next life".

perhaps most heartbreaking for maeve given her final scene is the bit that was (deliberately?) left out of the vocal melody in the soundtrack version of 'a forest': "the girl was never there, it's always the same; i'm running towards nothing, again and again and again..."

and much as it's the ultimate soundtrack cliche to play 'exit music' at the end of a show (as 'black mirror' also did just a few months ago), there was something beautifully apt about a host uprising marked with the 'words' "we hope your rules and wisdom choke you..."
[/geek]

i'm interested in where the story can go from here, as the enclosed, repetitive (in time and space) nature of the world was one of the main features. i am most concerned that a second season will be more dull action sequences and less of the cerebral stuff that hopkins's character brought to the table. the whole thing could easily turn into yet another sci-fi dystopia we've seen a million times before, just with more swearing and nudity.

[close]

Agree entirely with this post about Maeve and William.

Spoiler

There's no way someone as ugly and ratfaced as McPoyle ages into someone as manly and handsome as Ed Harris

[close]

[Redcap]

Agree entirely with this post about Maeve and William.

Spoiler

There's no way someone as ugly and ratfaced as McPoyle ages into someone as manly and handsome as Ed Harris

[close]

Jimmi Simpson is surprisingly handsome in Westworld. As good as he's ever looked in anything really.