Author Topic: General Running Thread  (Read 799140 times)

Offline Welshred

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18640 on: April 6, 2021, 01:52:16 pm »
Always fun picking them off  ;D
To be fair, my mate who trains me has ran sub 14, I'm fairly confident he's not on PEDs but he has dedicated his entire life from age 11 to now in his mid/late 20s to running. His existence is completely geared towards it - as needs to be to run those speeds over distance. He also seems genetically lucky - tall, lean, long stride etc - though some of this will be due to lifestyle factors.

It does boggle my mind that how hard I've had to work and push to run less than 18 minutes, that there's guys out there who aren't even considered elite and they're running near 4 minutes quicker! It's mad. Commitment, training and lifestyle. Those running sub 13 are genetic freaks and like WelshRed said, I do think substance abuse amongst the elite must be absolutely rife at present. There's too many records being broken, but more eyebrow raisingly, there's too many athletes running huge PBs that seemed far beyond what they could possibly do and possibly improve at for their ages. Even those not directly taking banned substances or PEDs are most likely on a cocktail of stuff that will be banned in the future - they always say the chemists are a step ahead of the testers.

Don't forget the shoes mate. Shoes are making a huge difference. I think it was you who posted about how much less energy you were using with the carbon plates in one pair of shoes you wear? Less energy in your stride means you can push harder for longer. Shoes and PEDS. It's the way forward. I'm not convinced there isn't a single elite athlete who isn't taking PEDS in some form or another.

Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18641 on: April 6, 2021, 02:54:58 pm »
Don't forget the shoes mate. Shoes are making a huge difference. I think it was you who posted about how much less energy you were using with the carbon plates in one pair of shoes you wear? Less energy in your stride means you can push harder for longer. Shoes and PEDS. It's the way forward. I'm not convinced there isn't a single elite athlete who isn't taking PEDS in some form or another.
Yeah absolutely - I have a single plate variant of the Zoom Fly 3s and honestly I look forward to wearing them so much, they just take a lot of the effort out of maintaining higher speeds. They immediately allowed me, with no additional training, to knock over 30 seconds off my 5km pb when I first got them (though granted it had been 2 months more of training since my previous attempt). I have two pairs of road shoes I wear a lot of - ASICs Road Hawks FF 2s and Nike Zoom Pegasus 37s - both cracking shoes, neither with a plate. The Pegasus are extremely low profiles closer to what you'd call a racer - but sturdy enough to do decent miles in. In those, I'd say 03:30 /km feels a true effort and like I'm running at max. I would struggle to break 18:00 for 5km in them. In the Zoom Fly's, with the plate, whilst I've never done a full 'balls to the wall' 5km effort, I've done a session with a 5km section in 17:25 in the plated shoes.

No wonder they've banned the triple and double-plate variants, just the boost you get from the commercially available runners is pretty sizeable. This is from me using the £140 'middle of the road' or intermediate option - I'd love to try a pair of the Alphaflys that are £280, just to see what they're like. The Vaporflys are just about on the edge of legal, due to the thickness of the sole's stack. These are the shoes that are the bone of contention amongst elite athletes but they didn't get banned.

Regrettably it's probably true regarding the PEDs and almost any athlete you can name - whether they know they are or not. And like I said, there will be loads of them on stuff that isn't banned currently but will be once the testing shows up. My Coach has said for years and years he reckons Farah was doping, that he was too old to improve as much as he did in the short space of time that he did it in.

Whether he's doped or not - I always smile when I do 400m reps, because I can just about do a 400m at the pace Cheptegei continues for a 5km - when I run that pace it feels like full speed sprinting, with lactic acid building and the quads feeling like they're going to fall off. Always good seeing normal folk sprinting at the side of the marathon and getting outpaced by the smooth-motion of the elite runners who look like it's barely an effort.
« Last Edit: April 6, 2021, 02:58:01 pm by Drinks Sangria »
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Offline Welshred

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18642 on: April 6, 2021, 03:01:55 pm »
I think Kipchoge did his sub-2hr marathon in the triple plated shoes didn't he? I remembering arguing with people at the time about it being down to the shoes and other things like him always being in a slip stream and his pacemakers being fresh. There's a guy I follow on Twitter who is big into the shoe research and how much benefit they have.

I'm with your coach about Farah. He was a middle of the pack runner for years and years then all of a sudden he's out at the front and winning golds? It's just too dodgy. It does take a massive effort like you said about Cheptegei and your experience of running at the same speed but PEDS make it much, much easier.

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18643 on: April 6, 2021, 03:30:47 pm »
Isn't 2hr marathon pace about 17 seconds for the 100m?

Fucking ridiculous

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18644 on: April 6, 2021, 03:43:16 pm »
I think Kipchoge did his sub-2hr marathon in the triple plated shoes didn't he? I remembering arguing with people at the time about it being down to the shoes and other things like him always being in a slip stream and his pacemakers being fresh. There's a guy I follow on Twitter who is big into the shoe research and how much benefit they have.

I'm with your coach about Farah. He was a middle of the pack runner for years and years then all of a sudden he's out at the front and winning golds? It's just too dodgy. It does take a massive effort like you said about Cheptegei and your experience of running at the same speed but PEDS make it much, much easier.
Yeah it's very dodgy re Farah. He was 27 before he became world leading but had never produced a performance to signal his potential before that. He mainly finished, like you say, in the middle of the pack at the major Championships, then all of a sudden he was shaving 20+ seconds off of his 5km pb when he was already elite? Pretty much unheard of.

Difficult with the Kipchoge one - on the one hand I admire that he has done the sub 2 purely from a physiological viewpoint - mere proof that technically the human body is capable. However, he had pacemakers (honestly a massive help), literal trucks driving round with windbreaking-sheets on them so he was running in as close to a still environment as possible, and the biggest boost - triple-plated unrated carbon plate shoes that have never before or since been available. To anyone. The shoes also were never submitted to the IAAF for the typical testing they'd be scrutinised under - so god knows that they would've been like to wear and what sort of boost they afforded Kipchoge. Don't get me wrong, the man is super human - but in controlled conditions he takes nearly two minutes off the world record? Even over that distance, that's huge. Nike were hugely evasive about releasing the actual specs of the shoe - they still haven't, in there entirety, and you can see on pictures of him running that they weren't the same as the Vaporfly Elite lots of pros were wearing in the aftermath.

The midsole looked bigger than is now legal, presumably to hide an air pocket in the front to keep that propulsive effect going wherever the foot strikes the ground. You can also see in pictures where Kipchoge was holding the shoes after the run that there is a section of foam missing from the midsole, presumably again to shave weight or to allow the air bubble to compress in it's entirety, causing a sort of bounce effect in the foam to again lend to it's propulsive qualities. Nike put in for a patent in 2018 of a shoe that was ostensibly never produced - one which has dual air pockets in the front on either side, an easily reproduceable upper and thicker midsole with the three plates and much more grip than standard. I think it's a fair assumption this likely became Kipchoge's race shoe.   

The shoes caused such consternation internally to the IAAF that I think they were the main force behind the banning of multiple plates and the new rule that anything used in an event has to become commercially available in the exact same specs to consumers within 9 months of race debut I believe. Hence shoes now being available at a £300 price point.

Isn't 2hr marathon pace about 17 seconds for the 100m?

Fucking ridiculous
Quick calculation puts him at doing 422 reps of 100m, with no rest, each at 17 seconds  :o ;D It's just otherworldly.
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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18645 on: April 6, 2021, 04:06:36 pm »

Quick calculation puts him at doing 422 reps of 100m, with no rest, each at 17 seconds  :o ;D It's just otherworldly.

Think I remember having a conversation at one point at the pace required with someone who doesn't run who reckoned " they aren't going that fast"

I pointed out he'd

A) never ran or more importantly spectated an elite race
B) Couldn't keep it up for 5km never mind 26.2 miles and worked it out that it was about 17 seconds and he was banging on about his 100m times at school.

Failing to understand you need to do it 422 times as you rightly said.

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18646 on: April 6, 2021, 04:13:25 pm »
have heard of some serious running clubs trying that pace and even the elite runners are done after less than 1km

call it dodgy if you want but surely these lads are regularly tested?

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Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18647 on: April 6, 2021, 04:16:09 pm »
Think I remember having a conversation at one point at the pace required with someone who doesn't run who reckoned " they aren't going that fast"

I pointed out he'd

A) never ran or more importantly spectated an elite race
B) Couldn't keep it up for 5km never mind 26.2 miles and worked it out that it was about 17 seconds and he was banging on about his 100m times at school.

Failing to understand you need to do it 422 times as you rightly said.
It's hard to have a sensible discussion with some non-runners about the sport, because they just haven't got the experience of doing it to frame what you're discussing or reference distances correctly. People I also find wrongly over-inflate the distances they're capable of running.

Like you say, when you see elite runners in the flesh it's a madness, it makes you knackered just watching them. I think that when I've seen my mate do 800m reps in 01:49.

have heard of some serious running clubs trying that pace and even the elite runners are done after less than 1km

call it dodgy if you want but surely these lads are regularly tested?


There's no doubt these guys getting times are exceptional and essentially superhuman, but there's also definitely a culture of secrecy with a lot of the top level set ups. I don't know about IAAF testing - but UKAS tests only indicate substances that are on the banned list - so you could have any number of things swimming in your system but if none of them flag as one of the agreed banned substances, you're not breaking any rules per se. 
« Last Edit: April 6, 2021, 04:19:04 pm by Drinks Sangria »
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Offline paulrazor

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18648 on: April 6, 2021, 04:30:58 pm »
indeed

id say it is well possible for even me to do 100 metres in 17 seconds

possibly twice one after other but jesus doing that 400 odd times?

not on your life
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Offline Welshred

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18649 on: April 6, 2021, 05:03:28 pm »
have heard of some serious running clubs trying that pace and even the elite runners are done after less than 1km

call it dodgy if you want but surely these lads are regularly tested?



They haven't been during covid...but as Sangria says they only test for what they know and the chemists are always one step ahead!

Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18650 on: April 6, 2021, 05:15:18 pm »
They haven't been during covid...but as Sangria says they only test for what they know and the chemists are always one step ahead!
Yeah my mate who's been tested a few times at European meets said it reminded him of the allergy test at the doctors (if anyone's ever done that, it basically has the seven main allergens and just confirms you're allergic to one or more rather than telling you anything specific) and it just indicates the presence of any banned substance - if there's a positive test they then test the sample further to drill into exactly what banned substance you have in your body.

I would assume it's because the more general indicative test is cheaper to do and they don't want to spend on the more in-depth one they do as a follow up on positive tests if you've given a negative to begin with. Definitely limits their ability to pick out problems - if everyone was testing negative but all had something in them that was new or hard to recognize, it would then be a lot easier to pick up on that, test it and decide whether it should be banned or not.
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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18651 on: April 7, 2021, 12:19:19 pm »
So yes, many of these elite athletes are indeed superhumans from the start. Then the training, PEDs and equipment help.
Great discussion and input guys, thanks. Now I know, I don't have to feel bad, or jealous, seeing people compete (or the odd fellahs and women blitzing pass us in the park ;) ).

More contentiously, what is a 'safe' and legal PED to start with to see gains in both weight loss and improvements?

Offline Welshred

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18652 on: April 7, 2021, 12:20:11 pm »
None of them are safe and legal, that's why they're banned or will be when they get found haha

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18653 on: April 7, 2021, 12:20:59 pm »
;D

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18654 on: April 7, 2021, 12:30:35 pm »
I think the closest thing us mere mortals can do to assist our running (and we're talking fairly small gains) is to keep a decent diet, keep hydrated and rest an appropriate amount.

It's really interesting debate though. Read 'The Russian Affair' or 'The Dirtiest Race in History' and it'll open anyone's eyes who thought that doping was only the last resort of those who weren't quite good enough.

The second book is about the 1988 Seoul Olympics 100m final and how in America in the early-mid 80s, the mantra in top level track was 'if you don't take it, you won't make it.'

It's nuts when the steroid programmes these sprinters were on is detailed, makes you wonder how much agency and control they had at all when running, absolutely doped up to the eyeballs.
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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18655 on: April 8, 2021, 08:36:16 am »
On non runners Sangria, when I started out I was sharing a house in Manchester with two lads.

One of them was the definition of gammon. From Stoke, thought he was more intelligent on everything than everyone.

He loved the gym and played a lot of five a side, when I started running and my times kept tumbling I was talking to the other lad about my parkrun times and he was impressed (he'd been training for a half iron man at one point).

The gammon head pipes up about how he did a run the other day running under five minute miles for 10k.

I said I don't think you were mate. As the woman's world record is about 30 minutes

Turns out he meant five minute per KM. "Well it's the same thing"

No lad. It's not.


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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18656 on: April 8, 2021, 09:11:35 am »
:D

I remember years ago when I played a lot of sport but did no running as such I had a guest pass for the gym and rattled off what I though was 5 miles in 30 minutes and was pleasantly surprised with how easy it felt. Didn’t realise the treadmill was clearly set to km.

I’m not a gammon but the way. And did acknowledge I had it wrong. :D

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18657 on: April 8, 2021, 09:23:19 am »
Happens

When I ran a marathon in my head with 8k to go I kept saying "8k 5miles......then argued with myself as to why 8k sounds further than 5 mile"

Knew it was same but when you've fun 21 miles already I think you're entitled to be cabbaged
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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18658 on: April 8, 2021, 09:23:51 am »

Painful  ;D Literally 40% more distance.

Running seems to be one of the sports where non-runners just haven't got a clue some of the time - what goes into it, what is a realistic time per distance etc.

Did a 5 mile tempo last night, 29:52 so about 03:45/km, give or take some easy KMs and harder ones as it was quite an up and down loop. Felt decent and controlled, having a 'rest' week prior has certainly helped. Got footy tonight so will no doubt be in pieces tomorrow though - the two don't mix.
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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18659 on: April 8, 2021, 10:42:26 am »
:D

I remember years ago when I played a lot of sport but did no running as such I had a guest pass for the gym and rattled off what I though was 5 miles in 30 minutes and was pleasantly surprised with how easy it felt. Didn’t realise the treadmill was clearly set to km.

I’m not a gammon but the way. And did acknowledge I had it wrong. :D

You're forgiven, you have redeeming qualities. He didn't.

Know what you mean about football. I played five aside after taking up running.

Obviously my cardio was infinitely better, but it was the twisting and turning that convinced me to pack it. Was great seeing the lads who were always able to run harder and longer than me think "oh crap, he runs now doesn't he"

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18660 on: April 11, 2021, 10:54:06 pm »
All unofficial of course but ran my fastest half marathon today. 1.52. Although was actually out a couple of minutes longer as I had to stop and check where I was a couple of times!

On another note, my thighs are chaffed to fuck. Any tips for stopping that? Apart from not having Roberto Carlos thighs? :D

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18661 on: April 12, 2021, 06:42:01 am »


Is your friend.

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18662 on: April 14, 2021, 11:44:28 am »
Does anyone get up and run before work? Starting to consider it as I'm getting to the point now where I may need to split runs on certain days. My shortest run is now around 8 miles, and it's starting to be an hour a night I'm out, six times a week.

14km last night, 04:15 / km, nice and light on my feet. Another 12km tonight and then football Thursday on my 'rest' day. I'm considering running at lunch on Thursday or getting up early because I don't like my rest day still having some exercise on it, defeats the purpose somewhat.

It's just hard to fit anything over 6 miles, a shower and a bite to eat into a lunch hour.

Created my own problem I know by doing such mileage  ;D I haven't a clue how the 100 mile a week guys go on. I'm doing 60 and it feels like I'm already prioritising my running over a lot of other aspects of my life. 
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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18663 on: April 14, 2021, 12:37:48 pm »
Occasionally I get up at about 6.15 and do about 3 miles. Longest I’ve done that early is 5. It’s easier now that I don’t have a commute as well.

Can only do a distance at that hour that doesn’t need any food or drink before I set off, just get up and go. On a longer weekend run I normally have a coffee and banana first so then need to wait a bit before I set off.

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18664 on: April 14, 2021, 12:43:28 pm »
Occasionally I get up at about 6.15 and do about 3 miles. Longest I’ve done that early is 5. It’s easier now that I don’t have a commute as well.

Can only do a distance at that hour that doesn’t need any food or drink before I set off, just get up and go. On a longer weekend run I normally have a coffee and banana first so then need to wait a bit before I set off.
I'd probably be getting up about 06:30 - 07:00, so not even that early as I don't currently have a commute with wfh. Makes it a lot easier. Would need to chuck a pint or more of water down me though, I'm awful for the infamous runner's gut if I've not hydrated properly.
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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18665 on: April 14, 2021, 01:59:07 pm »
I used to love an early morning run.

When I was training for my first marathon (five years ago almost to the date) I think I got to 55 miles and on the longer runs in the week I'd go at night.

I was living alone then so made things a lot easier.

Sampled what will be my new local parkrun route the other day.

Caught about 5,683 gnats /midgies, which was fun.

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18666 on: April 14, 2021, 04:14:35 pm »
I'd probably be getting up about 06:30 - 07:00, so not even that early as I don't currently have a commute with wfh. Makes it a lot easier. Would need to chuck a pint or more of water down me though, I'm awful for the infamous runner's gut if I've not hydrated properly.
only time i ever got runner belly was an early run, mind you i had a few beers the night before, wasnt planned to run but i couldnt sleep so though "fuck it" only about a 3 miler

but the last mile was torture on my stomach, i had some water and a cereal bar so i wasnt running empty but for the last mile i was in that vicious circle of needing to run fast, but not too fast so i dont lose control of my stomach but not too slow so as i make it home on time.

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18667 on: April 14, 2021, 04:36:01 pm »
only time i ever got runner belly was an early run, mind you i had a few beers the night before, wasnt planned to run but i couldnt sleep so though "fuck it" only about a 3 miler

but the last mile was torture on my stomach, i had some water and a cereal bar so i wasnt running empty but for the last mile i was in that vicious circle of needing to run fast, but not too fast so i dont lose control of my stomach but not too slow so as i make it home on time.
But did you make it home on time?  ;)

Only ever had it once where I've had to stop and actually go to avoid shitting myself. Was in Munich in a wooded park where all the trees were fucking pine needles  ;D Not a nice moment for me. Normally my stomach just feels rumbly and awful then I make it home and the world falls out my arse. I'm careful with hydration now though so rarely happens.

I also find having alcohol to soon after a run messes me up. Last week I did 20km, then got home and had a scorching bath and a couple of cold beers whilst I was sitting in the bath, that sent me all light headed and woozy feeling. Alcohol and heat not a good mix, probably really lowered my blood pressure  :-[
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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18668 on: April 15, 2021, 04:21:39 pm »
Just about

Spent as much time.on bog as I did running.

Anyway I'm sure no one wants updates on our bowels

8.6k today in 52. One of them that felt awful slow yet I hit my usual pace.
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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18669 on: April 21, 2021, 10:35:15 am »
5k threshold pace on Monday in 17:55 - got a lot fitter in the last 6 months but also feel more fatigued more consistently.

Last night, 15 x 60 seconds with float recovery in between, 60 second reps at around 03:15 /km. Felt a bit of hamstring tightness on the cool down which I'll need to keep an eye on.

13km easy tonight, going to take it nice and sedate to give myself recovery chance.
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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18670 on: April 21, 2021, 11:57:18 am »
I went for a run yesterday. Never noticed before how much I must run with my mouth open like Harry Kane but there were millions of flies out and I think I ate most of them. Slightly warmer weather, and running through a couple of parks and close to a river where they just have been breeding but it was grim. That many of them in various pockets along the way that I could feel them hitting my face as I ran through.

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18671 on: April 21, 2021, 12:03:03 pm »
I went for a run yesterday. Never noticed before how much I must run with my mouth open like Harry Kane but there were millions of flies out and I think I ate most of them. Slightly warmer weather, and running through a couple of parks and close to a river where they just have been breeding but it was grim. That many of them in various pockets along the way that I could feel them hitting my face as I ran through.
only notice it when one of the fuckers gets in your mouth

mind you who doesnt run with their mouth open

you do need to breath
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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18672 on: April 21, 2021, 02:52:53 pm »
Yeah I think if you're running breathing just through your nose you're either not putting enough effort in to actually call it running, or you have superhuman oxygen consumption.

Always snacking on the fuckers - I live in the sticks and when the farms spread muck they're everywhere. Recently I've been coming home with forehead and neck plastered in bugs and flies.

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18673 on: April 22, 2021, 11:52:15 am »
Just got confirmation of London Marathon. In my 40th year, always been on the bucket list. Did 17KM yesterday  - excited and nervous.

"There are places I'll remember all my life"  The Beatles,  ISTANBUL 2005

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18674 on: April 22, 2021, 12:41:14 pm »
best of luck

give it everything and prepare as best you can

get out in tough conditions and get yourself some good runners

any advice ask in here
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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18675 on: April 26, 2021, 01:27:54 pm »
Starting to feel depleted now. Still got three weeks left before I get some form of respite with a taper week too.

I've been doing 50-55 miles a week for a month and whilst I'm coping with it in terms of not being injured, I feel fatigued in general and am starting to struggle to motivate myself for sessions. I've gone from smashing the sessions to just about scraping what's requested of me, which in part will be because they're more demanding.

Does anyone who's done big mileage in the past ever have like a full week off or a couple of really easy weeks to reset? I haven't done less than 30 miles in a week for around a year now and have been doing 40+ for most of that.

In better news I have easy runs today and tomorrow so am planning on just getting out and taking it slow and steady, enjoying the sun a bit.
“Seeing these smiling faces is the greatest pleasure. They have been magnificent all season. They have been our 12th man. I have always said our fans are the best in England. Now I know they are the best in Europe too.” Rafa Benitez

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18676 on: May 4, 2021, 09:55:34 am »
5km PB attempt coming at the end of next week.

My coach has rejigged my schedule somewhat so this is a rest week, only 4 runs, only 5 miles at a time and three rest days, which will feel alien to me after pretty much a year of having just one day off a week.

I'm hoping it puts a bit more fuel in my tank because as my last post showed, I'm just knackered with it at the moment and have plateaued big time.
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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18677 on: May 4, 2021, 10:12:01 am »
you have done too much

few days off and a few light runs will be ok and then after a while youll be able to go for pb
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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18678 on: May 4, 2021, 12:29:46 pm »
Was attempting to complete the couch to 5 k app but at around week 4 i managed to somehow do something to my hip/groin on my last run so i''ve decided to take some time off, question though, if i get back into doing it should i just carry on where i left or go back a week?

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Re: General Running Thread
« Reply #18679 on: May 4, 2021, 12:39:37 pm »
whatever your body tells you
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