Topic: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)

[Chakan]

Whilst I disagree with his sensationalist article title and conclusion I also find it difficult to see Suarez' usage of 'negrito' (if that was the term he used) as a term of endearment.  Really, does anyone in here seriously think that Suarez used the word he used in an endearing way?  It was flippant at best, vindictive at worst.

While cultural context is important so too is the general context of the exchange which, to all intents an purposes, would appear to have been heated.

I don't think anyone is saying whatever Suarez called him was in anyway endearing. But tell me this if "negrito/negro/whatever the hell the word was" is meant to be a translation to "pal/mate/whatever" let me ask you something, have you ever had a argument with someone and said "Come on mate , seriously!?" or "You're being an asshole, mate" or " fuck you, mate" we're all allowing for the possibility that this is the case, while everyone in the papers has already said to all intensive purposes that this can never happen. He MUST have meant it in a racial way. This is the papers/and practically everyone else's stance, which we disagree with.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

I don't think anyone is saying whatever Suarez called him was in anyway endearing. But tell me this if "negrito/negro/whatever the hell the word was" is meant to be a translation to "pal/mate/whatever" let me ask you something, have you ever had a argument with someone and said "Come on mate , seriously!?" or "You're being an asshole, mate" or " fuck you, mate" we're all allowing for the possibility that this is the case, while everyone in the papers has already said to all intensive purposes that this can never happen. He MUST have meant it in a racial way. This is the papers/and practically everyone else's stance, which we disagree with.

and you cannot convinct someone based on 'it must have been' without solid evidence backing that up

[Kwaideng]

I don´t wish to stir up any arguments but I have just had to run down to our local supermarket, my son wanted more booze and amongst the stuff he had on the list was "Negrita" dark rum.

Sure enough on the label in quite large letters is the word "Negrita" and a picture of a little girl.

Can't beat a Negrita and black though. Still it's a rum do.

[Fanxxxxtastic]

Just had a thought while watching HM The Queen's speech.  Made me think about all the faux pas that Prince Phillip has came out with in the past, and the press/media just have a right good giggle about it. 

[CognacBut]

You can find this in every Auchan supermarket in Evra's home country where I happen to live. Hence the name. Auchan is the biggest Supermarket you will find here, on a par with Tescos but more heading towards the standard of Marks & Spencer.

Racist fuckers.

[81a]

Just had a thought while watching HM The Queen's speech.  Made me think about all the faux pas that Prince Phillip has came out with in the past, and the press/media just have a right good giggle about it. 

What are they going to do? Ban him from 8 Royal tours?

Phil was FA President from 55-57, regarded by many as his golden era for flinging racial epitaphs.

His Grandson is the current  FA President! No Royal tours to Uruguay on the horizon I imagine.

[thejbs]

I don't think anyone is saying whatever Suarez called him was in anyway endearing. But tell me this if "negrito/negro/whatever the hell the word was" is meant to be a translation to "pal/mate/whatever" let me ask you something, have you ever had a argument with someone and said "Come on mate , seriously!?" or "You're being an asshole, mate" or " fuck you, mate" we're all allowing for the possibility that this is the case, while everyone in the papers has already said to all intensive purposes that this can never happen. He MUST have meant it in a racial way. This is the papers/and practically everyone else's stance, which we disagree with.

Negrito doesn't mean 'mate' but it is a word that CAN be used affectionately.  The article I was referring to talks about context of how it was said and how that affects meaning.  I've reffered to mates as 'c**t' in a jokey way and it has caused no offense.  If used in a heated exchange it will cause offence.  If English friends refer to me as a 'Paddy' its affectionate and doesn't offend me, but in London a drunken stranger once told me to 'go home you fucking Paddy.'  I was really pissed off with him because of context.

[Chakan]

Negrito doesn't mean 'mate' but it is a word that CAN be used affectionately.  The article I was referring to talks about context of how it was said and how that affects meaning.  I've reffered to mates as 'c**t' in a jokey way and it has caused no offense.  If used in a heated exchange it will cause offence.  If English friends refer to me as a 'Paddy' its affectionate and doesn't offend me, but in London a drunken stranger once told me to 'go home you fucking Paddy.'  I was really pissed off with him because of context.

Spectacularly missing my entire point.

[81a]

His Grandson is the current  FA President! No Royal tours to Uruguay on the horizon I imagine.

No wonder the FA are making an example of Luis. They send Charles all the way to Uruguay, make him walk around the Estadio Centenario in the midday sun, and the blighters still had the nerve not to support the FA's World Cup bid.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/296297.stm

[thejbs]

Explain the point that I missed so 'spectacularly' because I believe I understood your point perfectly - I just disagreed with it.

[Fanxxxxtastic]

What are they going to do? Ban him from 8 Royal tours?

Phil was FA President from 55-57, regarded by many as his golden era for flinging racial epitaphs.

His Grandson is the current  FA President! No Royal tours to Uruguay on the horizon I imagine.

So, it was ok for Phil to fling his racial epitaphs here there and everywhere?  I didn't realise there were different levels of racism.  So, I guess his is good racism.

[Chakan]

Explain the point that I missed so 'spectacularly' because I believe I understood your point perfectly - I just disagreed with it.

Ok answer these 2 questions :

In an argument (in spanish) if someone calls the other person a "Negrito" what does it mean?

In an argument (in spanish) if someone calls the other person a "Negro" what does it mean?

[RedWesty]

Negrito doesn't mean 'mate' but it is a word that CAN be used affectionately.  The article I was referring to talks about context of how it was said and how that affects meaning.  I've reffered to mates as 'c**t' in a jokey way and it has caused no offense.  If used in a heated exchange it will cause offence.  If English friends refer to me as a 'Paddy' its affectionate and doesn't offend me, but in London a drunken stranger once told me to 'go home you fucking Paddy.'  I was really pissed off with him because of context.

If we take the point Negrito doesn't mean 'mate' and means 'Black man' it still isn't racist. Then surely another word would have been added
to this to make it offensive. E.g. a Spanish word for 'Fucking' or 'c*nt'. However, the way I see it is they've used the English variation of the
word 'Ne-gro' as offensive (whipping up the media and public fury) and the translation into English of the Spanish variation of the word 'Neg-ro'
to show the word even said in Spanish relates to the skin Colour.

Whilst ignoring the fact that the word in the context it was used 'Spanish' by a Uraguayan appears not to be either offensive nor Skin colour
related only. Whilst this word also said during a 'heated game' doesn't necessarily make it said in a context required to make it a Racist remark
also. Without video evidence. We are left with Evra both stating not only what word was said to him but more importantly pointing out WHEN the
word was said. To give the context needed.

If this is what's happened this isn't proof enough surely. It's not good enough to say during a game it must have been an offensive context nor
take a word and use it in more than one variation to prove racism. It has to be proved in terms of the language it was spoken and not what it
translates to or means if it had been the English variation. Context is all important in this. Could it be possible that the FA/Evra have adapted the
context to ensure a guilty verdict?And even so there appears too much doubt regards the context it was used even during a 'heated game'. Without
conclusive proof i.e. video or eyewitnesses then surely only a not guilty verdict should be concluded. Plus a negative Spanish word is required to go
with 'Black man' for it to be able to be deemed racist in the first place I would have thought.

[Bouncer]

Ok answer these 2 questions :

In an argument (in spanish) if someone calls the other person a "Negrito" what does it mean?

In an argument (in spanish) if someone calls the other person a "Negro" what does it mean?

Also there is a huge difference between negro and Negro ... With Suarez how would he know the recent etymologyical sensitivity of the latter in english  being brought up on the tough side of town and only knowing about football all his life.


Id like to suggest that we substitute the expletive C@nt for Evra to describe any nefarious activity/state, objectionable individual or just plain old female pudenda in future such "dont be a complete Evra"  or "that's evraish"

[Get]

Rasist dishwashing powder

[thejbs]

If we take the point Negrito doesn't mean 'mate' and means 'Black man' it still isn't racist. Then surely another word would have been added to this to make it offensive. E.g. a Spanish word for 'Fucking' or 'c*nt'.

So, you cannot use inflection to give a word a different meaning, you have to add another word?

Whilst this word also said during a 'heated game' doesn't necessarily make it said in a context required to make it a Racist remark also. Without video evidence.

It was clear from the videos of the exchange that it wasn't amicable. Surely as reasonable human beings we have to at least consider that the context might have existed for whatever word Suarez used to have been used with a snide or at least cheeky inflection?  This doesn't make him racist but I find it easier to believe that than to believe that he meant it as a 'term of affection.'

Plus a negative Spanish word is required to go with 'Black man' for it to be able to be deemed racist in the first place I would have thought.

Again, no.  Inflection can do this.  You can say the sentence 'He's a black man' and mean it in a literal, factual way with no offence.  You can also say 'He's a black man' with a different inflection and its derogatory.  Same sentence without need for any other words.

[Chakan]

Still waiting for my answers.

[Don Draper]

I just want to say that you Brits seem more sensitive to racism than Americans. I live in Houston, Texas and there are hordes of Hispanic people here and I used to work in a predominately Mexican company. I was referred to as Negrito on a regular basis and it was never meant as an insult. Even John Terry's "slur" didn't seem that bad too me. If someone called me that I would laugh (I'm African American btw).

IMO racism is not about words or childish insults, it's about oppression and demeaning an entire race. The stuff fans yell at players is 100 times worse and rarely anything happens.

[J-Mc-]

So, you cannot use inflection to give a word a different meaning, you have to add another word?

Considering the term 'Black Man' would be correct in describing Evra, it isn't racist if he just said that (however I can see why people would assume it is.)

It was clear from the videos of the exchange that it wasn't amicable. Surely as reasonable human beings we have to at least consider that the context might have existed for whatever word Suarez used to have been used with a snide or at least cheeky inflection?  This doesn't make him racist but I find it easier to believe that than to believe that he meant it as a 'term of affection.'

Wasn't clear at all, in any way.

All the video's showed was Suarez attempted to make up with Evra like you see many players do, by patting them on the head ect. Maybe wasn't the best thing to do since Evra was wound up by being turned inside out by Suarez and then the subsequent chants from the annie road end, but it still wasn't clear.

Again, no.  Inflection can do this.  You can say the sentence 'He's a black man' and mean it in a literal, factual way with no offence.  You can also say 'He's a black man' with a different inflection and its derogatory.  Same sentence without need for any other words.

It can be meant as a derogatory term yes, however, it all depends on what translation Suarez has been brought up to know, if he assumes that the term Negrito means mate, then he'll have meant it that way, simple as that. If Evra has took it the wrong way then it's an entirely misunderstanding.

To be perfectly honest, you sound like you're trying to brandish Suarez a racist without the use of evidence, you're not trying to give a balanced view in any way but trying to push the fact that what Suarez MAY have said, was indeed racist when the truth of the matter is, it's not as black and white as that, it's very much a grey area with a lot of different factors to accomodate for.

If you're not trying to then I apologise, but that's how it's coming across Jibs.

[Pheeny]

IMO racism is not about words, it's about oppression and demeaning an entire race not childish insults. The stuff fans yell at players is 100 times worse and rarely anything happens.

spot on.Also Brits or rather the British media should realize that there are other languages than English...

[thejbs]

Ok answer these 2 questions :

In an argument (in spanish) if someone calls the other person a "Negrito" what does it mean?

In an argument (in spanish) if someone calls the other person a "Negro" what does it mean?

I missed your post:

1. I believe 'Little black person' is the closest English approximation.

2. It means 'Black Person'

Now go back and read my post about how inflection can affect the interpretation of each of those terms, even in their English translation.  I find it hard to believe that 'Negrito' and 'negro' cannot be turned into insults in Spanish through inflection just as the way myriad words in English can be similary turned from innocuous (or even positive) into insults.

[Chakan]

I missed your post:

1. I believe 'Little black person' is the closest English approximation.

2. It means 'Black Person'

Now go back and read my post about how inflection can affect the interpretation of each of those terms, even in their English translation.  I find it hard to believe that 'Negrito' and 'negro' cannot be turned into insults in Spanish through inflection just as the way myriad words in English can be similary turned from innocuous (or even positive) into insults.

So you agree that when a person says either Negrito or Negro to another spanish person using inflection and context it can have a few different meanings. So here a situation Luis Suarez the person who actually said it , has come out and said I didn't mean it in a racist way. 3 white guys on a "Independent Panel" who don't speak spanish themselves say yes you did. Most of the shithouse media who themselves don't speak Spanish have said you are a racist. Guess who I am going to believe.

Also explain to me why a person, who is spanish, is first language is spanish, growing up in a spanish speaking nation with other spanish people has said this then

Daniel Pacheco @dani37pacheco 22 Dec
Negrito is never a racist word. Negro is so different and could be dangerous to say it, but not Negrito.

So how does he get it wrong?

[Don Draper]

spot on.Also Brits or rather the British media should realize that there are other languages than English...

That's unfortunate. As a black man in America, there are much bigger concerns. Like randomly getting stopped by police, getting followed in stores, people assuming your an idiot, etc.

It's actually laughable that a hispanic person is being charged for racism. Over here, hispanics and black people are so much on the same playing field, that you hear hispanic people saying "n*gga" ALL THE TIME and nobody cares.

[shelovesyou]

Only if he is convicted.

If not, the FA will let it slide - in Luis they have their Aztec sacrifice.

Terry will be investigated by the FA whatever the outcome mate.

[Chakan]

Terry will be investigated by the FA whatever the outcome mate.

that's laughable mate, if the CPS find Terry not guilty I will bet you a £100 the FA will say "Job Done"

[Twelfth Man]

Having spoken to quite a few of my black friend's about the issue, I'm now a bit less inclined to view this as I first did. Definitely a case of cultural misunderstanding, and the FA no doubt has used it to show Sepp Blatter up. The sensible thing would have been to hand out a suspended sentence and provide some guidance and education on the matter. Suarez as some of my friend's pointed out referred to a player's colour when he clearly had his name written on the back of his shirt. There was no maliciousness on Suarez' part and true where he comes from the word between 'friend's' does not have racial overtones. Suarez for me misjudged the situation and was unlucky to say it to a player who is known to react strongly to any implied racism.

This could have been sorted out perfectly amicably had the FA been less concerned about leading the way on racism and grandstanding Uefa and Fifa on the matter. Have been arguing the case all week with mates but quite a few have been upset by my stance, frankly it is a big issue and I should not be blinded by my loyalty to the club. The sentence was severe, the words misjudged, no racism was implied, some education and guidance and all this could have been avoided.

[Pheeny]

That's unfortunate. As a black man in America, there are much bigger concerns. Like randomly getting stopped by police, getting followed in stores, people assuming your an idiot, etc.

It's actually laughable that a hispanic person is being charged for racism. Over here, hispanics and black people are so much on the same playing field, that you hear hispanic people saying "n*gga" ALL THE TIME and nobody cares.

I lived in Central America for 6 months,all be it over 30 years ago,so no more or less what you mean.

[thejbs]

Daniel Pacheco @dani37pacheco 22 Dec
Negrito is never a racist word. Negro is so different and could be dangerous to say it, but not Negrito.

And this all comes back, yet again to the point I have made several times on here:

We do not know for certain what he said

Liverpool fans are saying Negrito as it is the more pleasant.  The press are saying Negro.  Neither fans or the press know for certain so speculation from both should be disregarded as just that. If as reported Suarez said “Porque, Negro?’’" then the inflection argument is wide open.

[Koplass]

Even John Terry's "slur" didn't seem that bad too me. If someone called me that I would laugh (I'm African American btw).

 

Seriously?!

[VamosLiverpool]

that's laughable mate, if the CPS find Terry not guilty I will bet you a £100 the FA will say "Job Done"

Exactly, if the CPS can't find him guilty then what ground will the FA have to stand on? Terry's lawyers can easily argue that if the CPS find him not guilty then unless the FA have new evidence, they surely can't find him guilty.

[Chakan]

And this all comes back, yet again to the point I have made several times on here:

We do not know for certain what he said

Liverpool fans are saying Negrito as it is the more pleasant.  The press are saying Negro.  Neither fans or the press know for certain so speculation from both should be disregarded as just that. If as reported Suarez said “Porque, Negro?’’" then the inflection argument is wide open.

Answer the rest of my post.
Liverpool fans aren't saying Negrito. Liverpool fans are saying we haven't seen the evidence , every other person is saying he is a racist. This is my point

[Lenin.]

We find it extraordinary that Luis can be found guilty on the word of Patrice Evra alone when no-one else on the field of play - including Evra's own Manchester United teammates and all the match officials - heard the alleged conversation between the two players in a crowded Kop goalmouth while a corner kick was about to be taken.

And this all comes back, yet again to the point I have made several times on here:

We do not know for certain what he said

Liverpool fans are saying Negrito as it is the more pleasant.  The press are saying Negro.  Neither fans or the press know for certain so speculation from both should be disregarded as just that. If as reported Suarez said “Porque, Negro?’’" then the inflection argument is wide open.

Going by our statement, I would say both players concerned have differing opinions on the actual word that was said.

[redrockydennis]

I was up in manc years ago, selling some slightly dodgy stuff to some lads, two of whom were from up north somewhere. Called one of the "kidder" as I was talking to him, next minutes all kicking off.

Had to explain I was being polite, and not saying he was a small child.

Bloody wools.

[thejbs]

Your point is off the mark then: Liverpool fans ARE NOT saying wait for the evidence - Liverpool fans are saying he definitely didn't say anything racist, he's definitely not a racist and that Evra is a pariah. They have plucked the word Sudaco out of thin air without so much as a shred of evidence. They are happier to point to 'Negrito' rather than 'Negro' as being what he said, despite the seemingly most reliable sources saying that he replied 'porque negro.'

They are blindly defending him and jumping to conclusions just as the media are albeit in the opposite direction.  Some on here are unwilling to allow ANY argument that is not 100% in support of him. There's hostility for anyone who points out that we don't have the facts.

[J-Mc-]

Your point is off the mark then: Liverpool fans ARE NOT saying wait for the evidence - Liverpool fans are saying he definitely didn't say anything racist, he's definitely not a racist and that Evra is a pariah. They have plucked the word Sudaco out of thin air without so much as a shred of evidence. They are happier to point to 'Negrito' rather than 'Negro' as being what he said, despite the seemingly most reliable sources saying that he replied 'porque negro.'

They are blindly defending him and jumping to conclusions just as the media are albeit in the opposite direction.  Some on here are unwilling to allow ANY argument that is not 100% in support of him. There's hostility for anyone who points out that we don't have the facts.

Yet you seem to be so damned sure that he is racist even though, like you say, we don't have any facts.

It's a breath of fresh air in this thread when someone offers a balanced view, to bad it doesn't happen to often.

[fosspowered]

Your point is off the mark then: Liverpool fans ARE NOT saying wait for the evidence - Liverpool fans are saying he definitely didn't say anything racist, he's definitely not a racist and that Evra is a pariah. They have plucked the word Sudaco out of thin air without so much as a shred of evidence. They are happier to point to 'Negrito' rather than 'Negro' as being what he said, despite the seemingly most reliable sources saying that he replied 'porque negro.'

They are blindly defending him and jumping to conclusions just as the media are albeit in the opposite direction.  Some on here are unwilling to allow ANY argument that is not 100% in support of him. There's hostility for anyone who points out that we don't have the facts.

Negro cerainly ain't a racist word either in South American context.

[ArcticRed]

Exactly, if the CPS can't find him guilty then what ground will the FA have to stand on? Terry's lawyers can easily argue that if the CPS find him not guilty then unless the FA have new evidence, they surely can't find him guilty.

Even if the CPS don't find him guilty of racism (I'm assuming that's the charge), it's still a bit off from the "insulting behaviour" and "reference to skin colour" that Luis got done for by the FA. Hence, still room for sanctions... should they be at all interested.

[thejbs]

HOLY SWEET SUFFERING JESUS WEEPING ON THE CROSS!!!

Where have I said he's racist?  Just point it out for me!

I DO NOT think he is a racist.  I said I do not buy the 'term of endearment' defense and have said that we cannot jump to either conclusion without facts.

[Don Draper]

Seriously?!

Yes. Someone calling me a black c*nt is nothing. Simply referring to someone's race isn't racism. The worst part of that is c*nt.

And Negro isn't a racial slur either.

[thejbs]

Negro cerainly ain't a racist word either in South American context.

Queer isn't an insult in every context of the word.
Black isn't an insult in every context of the word.
Coloured isn't an insult in every context of the word.
Fag isn't an insult in every context of the word.

For the 20th time; It is tone, context and intent that can turn innocuous words into offensive or derogatory terms.