Author Topic: The barbarity that is Syria  (Read 383775 times)

Offline Zeb

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #280 on: August 29, 2013, 06:59:27 pm »
No one is denying it's messy. No one is promising an easy solution. But I'm wondering at some of the statements and assumptions in your post.

I don't think there have been "chemical attacks for months". There have been two probable attacks and only one - the latest - has been open for verification by the UN. Even with verification it is going to difficult politically for the western powers to launch a military strike against Assad. Can you imagine how more difficult it would be if the idea had been mooted after the earlier attack when the UN was in no position to investigate? There's no need to be "cynical" about this. You just need to be realistic. 

I didn't realise that there were voices in our military - and the US one - saying that an air-strike, or cruise missile strike, against Assad would be "nuts" - let alone that they were saying this "very loudly". Is that true? But, of course, the western governments will consult their military commanders and if their advice is anything like you're saying it is then it's doubtful we'll proceed. One of the cornerstones of 'Responsibility to Protect' is the idea that any intervention has to be practical and likely to succeed. 

You're concerned about Russian and Iranian soldiers who might get killed in any air-strike. Here I disagree. They shouldn't be there. They have no mandate. If they are there - and I'm certain Iranian troops are indeed fighting to buttress Assad - then they have not been declared. Tough shit if they get killed.

Finally you call the Syrian crisis in which over 100,000 people have died and a massive proportion of the population are now refugees as "this little religious/civil war". I'm curious.  How many casualties would there need to be before you called it a big war? 

There's an obvious sarcasm about labelling a major regional conflict which has lasted two years and killed 100,000 people 'little'. Not like you to miss out on that yorky. You usually only do that when you disagree with someone... oh wait...

The UN inspection team sent to Syria identified 3 sites where evidence may have remained of chemical weapons attacks. There are a number where the possibility of establishing whether one took place one way or the other is now lost. In fact, that report from the Washington Times quoted is from early May. It's now late August. There are possible mitigating reasons behind why 'now', but at the same time this is a war which has been going on for 2 years. The use of chemical weapons has been alleged on both sides for a long time, and we've never been particularly keen to begin military action on this basis before. What exactly are the positive benefits of dropping some TNT on the Assad regime right now? Do you think it will stop him doing it again? Really?

As for military opinion, you could try General Lord Dannatt from this side of the Atlantic or General Martin Dempsey from the other. Both have warned on the unintended consequences of even missile attacks. Lord West has spoken up too on the dangers of throwing a stick of dynamite into a powder keg. As we're playing anal deconstruction of posts, please note that military voices here who can speak out publicly do not include serving officers. I'm sure you're aware of that but you may not be.

Unless you're arguing that we should not treat Assad regime as the legitimate government of Syria, which is a lovely tin of worms to open, then, sorry, but the Syrian government can invite whoever it likes across its borders. Whether we like it or not, killing some Russians or Iranians is bad mojo. It's very big and ballsy to say 'tough shit', foolhardy is probably the word invented for that kind of attitude. You'd kind of hope our leaders aren't that dumb.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 07:07:58 pm by Zeb »
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #281 on: August 29, 2013, 07:03:04 pm »
Well this is doing the rounds on FB and it's worth a share.

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Offline warkstache

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #282 on: August 29, 2013, 07:50:00 pm »
The UN inspection team sent to Syria identified 3 sites where evidence may have remained of chemical weapons attacks. There are a number where the possibility of establishing whether one took place one way or the other is now lost.


Offline jerseyhoya

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #283 on: August 29, 2013, 08:04:23 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/NQO0_p4MJ9o" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/NQO0_p4MJ9o</a>

Offline Zeb

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #284 on: August 29, 2013, 08:09:00 pm »
Heh, true enough comment in the cartoon. But the argument against isn't that Assad isn't a complete tosser, it's that we need to do it legally and be fully aware that we're walking into a minefield and be prepared to face the consequences of that. The limited nature of the debate so far, the brazen titwankery of the Tories about having that debate, makes me think that opposition to it right now is best.

Here's the views of the most senior general in the US Army, in a letter from 10 days ago.

Quote
Dear Representative Engel:
Thank you for your letter regarding the resources required and the risk of applying U.S. military force against the Syrian regime. Let me begin by assuring you that your military leaders are not reticent, weary, or risk averse. We are experienced in complex conflict, realistic about the cost we incur in blood and treasure when we apply the military instrument of national power, and we are pragmatic about the limits of military force.

In testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee, I was asked what it would take to tip the conflict in favor of the opposition and in so doing achieve the objective of convincing Bashir Al-Assad to leave power. I provided my views after consultation with the Joint Chiefs and US. Central Command.

To the specific point in your letter, there are certainly actions short of tipping the balance of the conflict that could impose a cost on them for unacceptable behavior. We can destroy the Syrian Air Force. The loss of Assad’s Air Force would negate his ability to attack opposition forces from the air, but it would also escalate and potentially further commit the United States to the conflict. Stated another way, it would not be militarily decisive, but it would commit us decisively to the conflict. In a variety of ways, the use of US. military force can change the military balance, but it cannot resolve the underlying and historic ethnic, religious, and tribal issues that are fueling this conflict.

Syria today is not about choosing between two sides but rather about choosing one among many sides. It is my belief that the side we choose must be ready to promote their interests and ours when the balance shifts in their favor. Today, they are not. The crisis in Syria is tragic and complex. It is a deeply rooted, long-term conflict among multiple factions, and violent struggles for power will continue after Assad’s rule ends. We should evaluate the effectiveness of limited military options in this context.

We are helping Syria’s neighbors contain the spillover effects that would render our allies and partners less secure. We continue to deliver humanitarian and security assistance to Syria’s neighbors, as well as non-lethal assistance to the opposition. Moreover, I believe we can assist in the humanitarian crisis on a far more significant scale. We could, if asked to do so, significantly increase our effort to develop a moderate opposition. Doing so, in combination with expanded capacity-building efforts with regional partners and a significant investment in the development of a moderate Syrian opposition, represents the best framework for an effective U.S. strategy toward Syria going forward.

I would be happy to discuss this issue further with you in person. Thank you for your support for America’s Armed Forces and their families.
Sincerely,
MARTIN E. DEMPSEY General, US. Army

edit: missing an 'ey'
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 09:51:22 pm by Zeb »
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #285 on: August 29, 2013, 08:49:19 pm »
Zeb, you have to give sources for things like that. 


Offline Zeb

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #286 on: August 29, 2013, 08:52:22 pm »
Zeb, you have to give sources for things like that. 



I googled it for those unable to do it for themselves: http://democrats.foreignaffairs.house.gov/113/Letter_for_Rep_Engel_19_Aug_13.pdf

NYT coverage of it: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/world/middleeast/general-says-syrian-rebels-arent-ready-to-take-power.html?_r=0

Also of interest is the unclassified briefing which he gave on the military options, I think that was back in June but can't be arsed googling any more.
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Offline thegoodfella

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #287 on: August 29, 2013, 08:59:49 pm »
Does Fisk know how dumb that sounds? It's just part and parcel of his Great War for Civilization.

Pissing on the guy occupying the Black House may be fashionable, but implying that he's stupid for opposing the same asshole as another asshole in the middle east is, well, stupid. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. Fisk should know that, or at least, acknowledge the picture above.

Unfortunately, Fisk has become as disingenuous as the governments he rails against. He never passes up an opportunity these days to mock them for what he perceives as simplistic and ignorant stumbling through a Middle East where all problems can be traced back to "intervention". He accuses Obama of lining up with Al Qaeda and laughs at him. How the mighty Fisk has fallen.

He reserves none of his trademark vitriol for the villains in his immediate geographic area. Listening to Fisk rant and rave as he publicly fingers "Obama" as dumb and evil, one cannot help notice his polite reservation as he fails to out and name Arabs who die at the hands of other Arabs with the same enthusiasm. Indeed, when asked last year about an Assad's propensity to dish out a chemical Hama, Robert Fisk diverted attention and changed the subject by penning an article that started and ended with a 1917 British chemical attack. 

Maybe the Beirut sheesha smoke has gotten to the old man's head after all these years. More likely, he's sober enough to shut the fuck up and toe the party line, selling a few overly complicated paragraphs each week for his retirement paycheck.

His legacy as a legendary war reporter - a man who went partially deaf because he sat too close to Saddam's artillery watching them fire at Iranian soldiers - has been relegated to one of a borderline crackpot who re-bleats overly complicated conspiracy theories. He went from authoring two leading, indeed arguably unrivalled, masterpieces on the Middle East that bridged journalism and literature like few others have, to falling off that cutting edge into the same backward cesspool he's been covering. 

It pains me to say it, but Robert Fisk has found himself caught in a race between relevancy and retirement. He's losing that race, much like the rest of the Umma.

Forgive me, but what does that have to do with Syria? Fisk might have lost the plot, but he doesn't have blood on his hands, does he now?

Offline Corkboy

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #288 on: August 29, 2013, 09:02:13 pm »
I googled it for those unable to do it for themselves.

That's not how it works. If you want to quote someone else's writing in here, you supply the source. People reading your posts shouldn't have to go look for it.

Offline Zeb

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #289 on: August 29, 2013, 09:10:39 pm »
That's not how it works. If you want to quote someone else's writing in here, you supply the source. People reading your posts shouldn't have to go look for it.

Given the media coverage of it, no, no they shouldn't.
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Offline ۩ Imperator ۩

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #290 on: August 29, 2013, 09:18:02 pm »
That's not how it works. If you want to quote someone else's writing in here, you supply the source. People reading your posts shouldn't have to go look for it.

He did supply the source. The source was Martin E Demps, General, US Army. I can see it there at the bottom of the letter.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #291 on: August 29, 2013, 09:24:38 pm »
Given the media coverage of it, no, no they shouldn't.

You're still not really getting it. This is not a Syria thing, it is a News and Current Affairs thing. Post someone else's work? Post the source so other people can verify it.

He did supply the source. The source was Martin E Demps, General, US Army. I can see it there at the bottom of the letter.

Again, just so we're clear, sources should be links. Nice, red, functioning links.

Offline Zeb

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #292 on: August 29, 2013, 09:26:40 pm »
He did supply the source. The source was Martin E Demps, General, US Army. I can see it there at the bottom of the letter.

Ey?

(Hate pdfs - shockingly his bio is still the first result on google if you put that in)

« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 09:30:23 pm by Zeb »
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Welshred

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #293 on: August 29, 2013, 10:37:41 pm »
The government lost their motions for military action in Syria tonight.

Online John C

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #294 on: August 29, 2013, 10:47:43 pm »
Someone needs punishing, I'd like yorky or corkys assessment of the weak position we appear to be in now. Or has Cameron asked too soon for something too consequential?

Offline Corkboy

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #295 on: August 29, 2013, 10:55:32 pm »
Someone needs punishing, I'd like yorky or corkys assessment of the weak position we appear to be in now.

You don't want mine. I only posted in this thread to gently remind Zeb of the rules. Syria is seven kinds of shit and I don't believe anything anyone says about who did what in there. Oh, how I pine for the days when the Americans could get away with just staging coups and then lying about it. Nice and simple...

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #296 on: August 29, 2013, 11:02:38 pm »
I'm concerned that we're left just cheerleading?

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #297 on: August 29, 2013, 11:08:33 pm »
I'm concerned that we're left just cheerleading?
You are just a US lapdog anyway

Offline ۩ Imperator ۩

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #298 on: August 29, 2013, 11:10:27 pm »
You're still not really getting it. This is not a Syria thing, it is a News and Current Affairs thing. Post someone else's work? Post the source so other people can verify it.

Again, just so we're clear, sources should be links. Nice, red, functioning links.

I think the forum rules state that news stories and comment pieces should be posted with links. This was neither.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #299 on: August 29, 2013, 11:12:58 pm »
I'm concerned that we're left just cheerleading?

It's a civil war with half a dozen external interests running interference all over the shop. Civil wars are generally best left alone but with this place, that horse bolted a long time ago. There really is no good reason to expect a positive outcome from America and Britain getting involved. For anyone.

Online John C

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #300 on: August 29, 2013, 11:13:19 pm »

You are just a US lapdog anyway
Is that good or bad  ??? :-\

Offline Corkboy

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #301 on: August 29, 2013, 11:21:54 pm »
I think the forum rules state that news stories and comment pieces should be posted with links. This was neither.

I wasn't aware there were forum rules on the matter. These are unofficial rules in this sub forum, more a matter of manners between posters. Not like I'm going to report Zeb for leaving out a source. .

But on your point, no. Yorky asked for back up to something Zeb had asserted, without evidence. Zeb then provided some evidence, so the correct thing to do was to also verify the evidence with a source. I don't doubt Zeb but maybe he copied the letter from someone who altered it. The fact of the letter being public is interesting in itself, so the source may be equally interesting, in terms of who wanted the letter in the public domain.

Offline ۩ Imperator ۩

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #302 on: August 29, 2013, 11:26:15 pm »
I think they're unofficial rules in your head, fella.

If someone posts a contribution which adds to the debate and you would like to know more about it, a good way to go about it might be to say "That 's interesting, could you possibly show me where you found it?", rather than appointing yourself King of the News Forum, drafting your own imaginary Magna Carta, and then getting arsey with people for not obeying your made-up edicts.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 11:30:28 pm by ۩ Imperator ۩ »
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #303 on: August 29, 2013, 11:37:23 pm »
Alrighty then. Good talk, let's do it again.

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #304 on: August 29, 2013, 11:39:32 pm »

It may not be a written rule but it's something that I believe most of us have followed over the years in this News and Current affairs thread.
It's not exactly difficult if you are doing a cut'n'paste from a page to also include the source URL. It's just a bit of courtesy and as Corky says, does enable the verification of the source material.
It's no big deal, but we have had people in the past being slightly selective in what they quote from sources and by providing the source they have used, it just helps to enable others to try and form a proper opinion.
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Offline Zeb

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #305 on: August 29, 2013, 11:43:59 pm »
It's not exactly difficult if you are doing a cut'n'paste from a page to also include the source URL

It's exceptionally difficult to do from a pdf on your HD. But I provided the source, so that should really be the end of it I think? Dempsey being opposed to military intervention should not be news to anyone who has followed events in Syria and the foreign response over the past 2 years.
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #306 on: August 29, 2013, 11:45:41 pm »
It's exceptionally difficult to do from a pdf on your HD.

If you wrote the pdf yourself fine, but if not where did you download the pdf from?
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #307 on: August 29, 2013, 11:46:39 pm »
It may not be a written rule but it's something that I believe most of us have followed over the years in this News and Current affairs thread.
It's not exactly difficult if you are doing a cut'n'paste from a page to also include the source URL. It's just a bit of courtesy and as Corky says, does enable the verification of the source material.
It's no big deal, but we have had people in the past being slightly selective in what they quote from sources and by providing the source they have used, it just helps to enable others to try and form a proper opinion.
Yes I know, I get it. I'm just saying that a) not everybody knows about it; b) it's not a rule; and c) if you want to ask somebody to do it, you can do it without being such a massive arse that the contributor may well decide never to bother contributing anything to the forum ever again.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #308 on: August 29, 2013, 11:48:11 pm »
Anyway.....

Syria
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Corkboy

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #309 on: August 29, 2013, 11:49:52 pm »
Yes I know, I get it. I'm just saying that a) not everybody knows about it; b) it's not a rule; and c) if you want to ask somebody to do it, you can do it without being such a massive arse that the contributor may well decide never to bother contributing anything to the forum ever again.

Your presence here doesn't appear to have had any effect on the people contributing so we can probably rule out that theory.

Offline ۩ Imperator ۩

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #310 on: August 29, 2013, 11:55:44 pm »
 :boring :boring :boring
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #312 on: August 30, 2013, 12:04:28 am »
Yes mate, that's the rule I mentioned nearly an hour ago. It refers, as you can see (I assume you read it), to news articles and comment pieces shared on the forum.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 12:05:59 am by ۩ Imperator ۩ »
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Offline Scouse-Con

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #313 on: August 30, 2013, 12:13:19 am »
Anyway.....

Syria

The only reason the USA want to get involved is because they can smell the oil all the way from Syria, so they want to get in there ASAP, but to avoid embarrassment and getting there arses kicked, they want to drag us along with them which Cameron is to thick to say no. What's going on in Syria has nothing to do with us so its best left alone, there is also no reason for the UK to get involved and do other people's dirty work, should leave our soliders at home protecting our land and the navy protecting our seas that's it.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #314 on: August 30, 2013, 12:49:12 am »
For those interested, the following link is to a pdf document which is the unclassified briefing from General Dempsey given to Senate Armed Services Committee as a letter. It was made public by Senator Levin the chairman of that committee. It sets out the military options available as well as some of the consequences and costs which may result from them. It also includes Dempsey giving his rationale for advising against direct military action. This is dated 19th July.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 12:51:09 am by Zeb »
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Offline Seebab

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #315 on: August 30, 2013, 02:17:30 am »
I see the whole thing as a bit like this...

One big monster of a man kicking the fuck out of a tiny man lying on the floor in a dark alley way. The big man also has his friend standing by alertly. The big man represents the conflict between Assad and the rebel forces and the tiny man represents the innocent Syrians getting slaughtered by the conflict.

We are the people walking on the street passing by who see what's going on and decide to walk on. "I feel for that guy but it's not my battle to fight. Besides I've got more important things in my life to deal with" says one passer-by (Britain). "I'm going to help that tiny guy in the hope of getting a reward from him, but I need to wait until the big guy starts kicking the small guy in the head- and only in the head" says another (US). "I'm going to check to see how bad it is before going to the police" says another (UN).

Some passers-by are laughing at the situation (Iran, Gulf states), some are placing bets as to what will happen next, some just don't even look and speed by.

The big guy's friend (Putin) sticks his middle finger up to the pedestrians who want to help and laughs at them, knowing they will never help the tiny guy because he's there to protect his pal.
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Offline No666

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #316 on: August 30, 2013, 08:43:04 am »
I'm concerned that we're left just cheerleading?
This was the most interesting part of the letter to my mind. I'm assuming such intervention is slow to filter through and complex but seems infinitely preferable to lighting the blue touch paper.
Quote
We could, if asked to do so, significantly increase our effort to develop a moderate opposition. Doing so, in combination with expanded capacity-building efforts with regional partners and a significant investment in the development of a moderate Syrian opposition, represents the best framework for an effective U.S. strategy toward Syria going forward.

Offline Red_Mist

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #317 on: August 30, 2013, 09:22:20 am »
I watched yesterday's whole debate and I thought it was intelligent and thoughtful. The vote then went the way I hoped it would, but at the same time I don't particularly feel like celebrating that. If you know what I mean.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #318 on: August 30, 2013, 09:25:08 am »
The only reason the USA want to get involved is because they can smell the oil all the way from Syria, so they want to get in there ASAP

You mean the olive oil? Production of the black stuff is negligible in Syria.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #319 on: August 30, 2013, 10:26:00 am »
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-reports-of-napalmlike-bomb-attack-on-aleppo-playground-emerge-after-mps-vote-against-military-action-8790841.html

Meanwhile Syrian jets dropped napalm on a children's playground in the rebel-held town of Aleppo. Anyone who saw BBC Newsnight last night will have seen the horrific scenes at the end which were captured by a Panorama film crew. 
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.