Topic: FAC:ManU 4 vs 3 Liv McT 10’ Mac 44’ Salah 45+2’ Antony 87’ Elliot 105’ Rash 113’

[Garlic Red]

Being offside isn't an offence. Trying to pass the ball to someone offside isn't an offence. Your second sentence is broadly why I don't like offside as it stands. It's pretty much the same situation as that penalty that Spurs got against us after Lovren tried to cut out the pass. I think Mo(?) scored a similar goal at some point too.

It's a shit law, but it is what it is.

It’s a shite law, it’s inconsistently applied and for me goes completely against what the offside law should be about.

I read an interview with Arsene Wenger a few months back and he talks about the offside law and how they don’t want to change it as it’s just about the only thing a defender has to defend against pace, particularly the pace of an Mbappe or a Haaland. This idea that teams can pass the ball towards an offside player and the defender makes a successful desperate attempt to intercept the pass should mean the flag still goes up and it’s up to the defending team if they want a restart or to carry on if they’ve maintained the ball. What it shouldn’t mean is the attacking side regain possession or anything like a turnover (defender clears for a throw in or corner or whatever) stands, it should be pulled back for offside.

The third man run offsides should also be looked at. We scored one like it at the Emirates last season. Darwin runs, he’s off, Diaz does the extra run from deep, he’s onside, Diaz rolls the ball across to Darwin to score. It was clever from us but the laws are daft. How hard can it be: is an offside player being targeted for a pass? He’s offside, simple.

[tornado]

Great we have a rematch in a few days and it's at the same stadium - boys will be really up for it, maybe we can repeat the Anfield scoreline from last season.

[DonkeyWan]

I've seen a lot of managers get tetchy over the years...klopp's "outbursts" if you call them that are pretty vanilla. Just jumped on by alot of people because of their dislike for our club and desperation to see him as anything other than the supreme being he is

Poor media guy (who seemed to not give a shit)

It's always the journos who get slightly peeved over this stuff. They ask dozens of leading questions that justs drains a manager as they have to give clever, non-commital answers. Then, when a manager loses patience with them they act like Divas. Hoesntly, no one should give a fuck about these parasites in the first place, they make a living out of trying to catch players and managers out.

[jillcwhomever]

The state of the question the guy asked, if you didn't already know the answer to that question it makes you wonder how he's made it to being a football journalist at all. Some questions are just so obvious that I can only think they are looking for a reaction.

[spider-neil]

It’s a shite law, it’s inconsistently applied and for me goes completely against what the offside law should be about.

I read an interview with Arsene Wenger a few months back and he talks about the offside law and how they don’t want to change it as it’s just about the only thing a defender has to defend against pace, particularly the pace of an Mbappe or a Haaland. This idea that teams can pass the ball towards an offside player and the defender makes a successful desperate attempt to intercept the pass should mean the flag still goes up and it’s up to the defending team if they want a restart or to carry on if they’ve maintained the ball. What it shouldn’t mean is the attacking side regain possession or anything like a turnover (defender clears for a throw in or corner or whatever) stands, it should be pulled back for offside.

The third man run offsides should also be looked at. We scored one like it at the Emirates last season. Darwin runs, he’s off, Diaz does the extra run from deep, he’s onside, Diaz rolls the ball across to Darwin to score. It was clever from us but the laws are daft. How hard can it be: is an offside player being targeted for a pass? He’s offside, simple.

The reason why Salah was offside in the Europe game is Endo (I think) is offside and the offsides in the competition are pretty much automated so anyone who is offside it is pulled up whether interfering with play or not. If true I much prefer this.

[NarutoReds]

I still believe everything could be manipulated even with VAR. The context AND on when the EXACT millisecond the VAR assistants draw the line.

[NarutoReds]

Yes, these. Better worded than mine.

Rashford is looking to run in behind and the pass was intended for him before VVD cuts it out. Him being there means VVD has to act so he is involved. But I've got no problem with them not flagging that but not when Salah gets flagged for one that is far tighter. As for the linesman not seeing the defender, this is a few seconds later, he's still not flagged and he can clearly see there was a defender beyond Salah. In any case if you're not sure you're supposed to keep the flag down.
This isn't the first time this has happened to us this season and it's becoming more common and more costly.

It was a clear offside as soon as Rashford makes the run and the ball is played to him the flag should go up. VVD can't just leave the ball because a midfield runner who is onside could run onto the pass.

Yes I know that's how the law works, but why is it being excercised when it's United on the attack (Rashford) and not when we're on the attack (Salah)?
You either flag for both or neither.

[amir87]

I wish this thread could just die and get buried six feet under.

[Eeyore]

Being offside isn't an offence. Trying to pass the ball to someone offside isn't an offence. Your second sentence is broadly why I don't like offside as it stands. It's pretty much the same situation as that penalty that Spurs got against us after Lovren tried to cut out the pass. I think Mo(?) scored a similar goal at some point too.

It's a shit law, but it is what it is.

The point is Rashford isn't passive he is actively trying to get on the end of a through ball. The offside isn't a tight one. If Rashford is passive or trying to get back onside then fine keep the flag down. If it is a tight call then keep your flag down and let VAR do it's job.

The thing is it is neither. Rashford is miles offside and actively trying to get on the end of a through ball. The same assistant put his flag up for a far tighter call against Salah when he shouldn't have.

[spider-neil]

I wish this thread could just die and get buried six feet under.

If you don't experience defeat you won't ever appreciate success.

[amir87]

If you don't experience defeat you won't ever appreciate success.

Already experienced it about 27 pages ago. At some point it's good to move on.

[spider-neil]

Already experienced it about 27 pages ago. At some point it's good to move on.

Unfortunately, we have to wallow in it as there is no Liverpool game for a couple of weeks.

[spider-neil]

I'm see a lot of pieces of how Manu beat Liverpool. Manu rode their luck as Liverpool fluffed their chances. That's it. Liverpool beat themselves.

[Crosby Nick]

I wish this thread could just die and get buried six feet under.

Only 94 days until our next game…

[emitime]

The point is Rashford isn't passive he is actively trying to get on the end of a through ball. The offside isn't a tight one. If Rashford is passive or trying to get back onside then fine keep the flag down. If it is a tight call then keep your flag down and let VAR do it's job.

The thing is it is neither. Rashford is miles offside and actively trying to get on the end of a through ball. The same assistant put his flag up for a far tighter call against Salah when he shouldn't have.

He can't be 'actively' trying to do anything because he's nowhere near the ball or Virgil.

The closest the law gets to it being offside is "making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball".

He does not impact Virgil's ability to play the ball. He impacts his decision, but that's not the same.

[Funky_Gibbons]

He can't be 'actively' trying to do anything because he's nowhere near the ball or Virgil.

The closest the law gets to it being offside is "making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball".

He does not impact Virgil's ability to play the ball. He impacts his decision, but that's not the same.

I said in a post earlier that I have no issue with the linesman keeping his flag down for Rashford as those are the current laws.

But I've shown two examples from our last two domestic games where the same rules have not been applied to our players. Both Salah and Nunez look onside but the linesman has flagged them off, why is that?

[Son of Spion]

I'm see a lot of pieces of how Manu beat Liverpool. Manu rode their luck as Liverpool fluffed their chances. That's it. Liverpool beat themselves.

Mad, isn't it.

We dropped our guard against a game-raising underdog in a one-off cup match. The defeat is on us. They never engineered anything. They got lucky.

It's amazing how this lucky win for them has created so much hysteria. We annihilated them 7-0 recently, but just had a good laugh then moved on.

[Schmarn]

Hoping someone will put the Brighton preview up to spare me from the period of mourning post Sunday. I'm sure Andy can knock up one of his one line previews or, come to think of it, was Andy actually responsible for the defeat by not taking the preview seriously?  We have a new scapegoat.

[Eeyore]

He can't be 'actively' trying to do anything because he's nowhere near the ball or Virgil.

The closest the law gets to it being offside is "making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball".

He does not impact Virgil's ability to play the ball. He impacts his decision, but that's not the same.

The obvious action is trying to get on the end of a through ball. Then he impacts Virgil's ability to flick it back to the keeper.

If what you are suggesting is true an offside player could block the passing lane for a pass from a player to his keeper whilst an onside player dispossesses the player runs forward and then squares it for the player who blocked the passing lane.

[emitime]

I said in a post earlier that I have no issue with the linesman keeping his flag down for Rashford as those are the current laws.

But I've shown two examples from our last two domestic games where the same rules have not been applied to our players. Both Salah and Nunez look onside but the linesman has flagged them off, why is that?

Because they actually received the ball. The linesmen were incorrect in their decision, and also in not following the 'hold your flag for VAR' guidance, but they didn't get the law wrong. There's plenty there to be annoyed about for sure.

Rashford is just not committing an offside offence at any point. It is 100% objectively correct. Trying to keep up with IFAB is almost a full time job in itself, but this one has been in the rules for a while.

[benitezexpletives]

It's always the journos who get slightly peeved over this stuff. They ask dozens of leading questions that justs drains a manager as they have to give clever, non-commital answers. Then, when a manager loses patience with them they act like Divas. Hoesntly, no one should give a fuck about these parasites in the first place, they make a living out of trying to catch players and managers out.

I think that's a bit harsh, the guy came out and said he wasn't upset. I think it's ok to say Klopp is an incredible manager but like most of us can be a bit of a twat sometimes. We don't need to get so defensive all the time. It was a disappointing result and we've had some disappointing decisions this seasons but we move forward and have an incredible chance to win a treble at the end of it all.

[emitime]

The obvious action is trying to get on the end of a through ball. Then he impacts Virgil's ability to flick it back to the keeper.

If what you are suggesting is true an offside player could block the passing lane for a pass from a player to his keeper whilst an onside player dispossesses the player runs forward and then squares it for the player who blocked the passing lane.

You're ignoring "which clearly impacts the ability of an opponent to play the ball". He doesn't even come close to that.

As for your imagined scenario... Yes, that would be fine.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Because they actually received the ball. The linesmen were incorrect in their decision, and also in not following the 'hold your flag for VAR' guidance, but they didn't get the law wrong. There's plenty there to be annoyed about for sure.

Rashford is just not committing an offside offence at any point. It is 100% objectively correct. Trying to keep up with IFAB is almost a full time job in itself, but this one has been in the rules for a while.

Sorry, but I've said numerous times I don't have an issue with the Rashford 'offside' so i don't know why you keep bringing it up.

But on the Salah and Nunez ones they did get the law wrong as they're clearly not offside and they didn't follow the correct protocol of keeping their flag down. So again, why are we being treated differently? It's irrelevant they received the ball, you should keep your flag down.

[Raid]

International breaks suck.

Just want my Reds back.

[Historical Fool]

You're ignoring "which clearly impacts the ability of an opponent to play the ball". He doesn't even come close to that.

As for your imagined scenario... Yes, that would be fine.

Yes it’s 100% fine, not sure why that’s an example raised …

[spider-neil]

Mad, isn't it.

We dropped our guard against a game-raising underdog in a one-off cup match. The defeat is on us. They never engineered anything. They got lucky.

It's amazing how this lucky win for them has created so much hysteria. We annihilated them 7-0 recently, but just had a good laugh then moved on.

The more praise lavished on them the better. It may help Seven Hag to keep his job.

[Eeyore]

Yes it’s 100% fine, not sure why that’s an example raised …

Because blocking a passing lane clearly affects a player's ability to play the ball. If it didn't teams who press wouldn't use it so regularly.

[Historical Fool]

Because blocking a passing lane clearly affects a player's ability to play the ball. If it didn't teams who press wouldn't use it so regularly.

But you can’t be offside from a back-pass …

[Kloppage Time]

You wanna see their merch stalls outside the dump. I used to park in N2 car park, as our offices were nearby and work rented a load of spaces and on match days we had to clear out at 4pm, so I had to walk past them to get my car. Every fucking stall was rammed with t-shirts about us, trying to take the piss out of Klopp, stuff about Gerrard, it was 80% LFC stuff. Thank fuck for Covid and WFH, no longer have to go near the shithole now

[Eeyore]

But you can’t be offside from a back-pass …

That is the whole point an offside player who makes a run in behind the defensive line and blocks the passing lane to the keeper is affecting the defender's ability to play the ball.

As I said earlier a defender facing his own goal his natural pass is to play it back to the keeper. An attacker should not be able to run into that space and block that passing lane. If he does that flag should go up.

[whtwht]

International breaks suck.

Just want my Reds back.

You're only as good as your last game. We are currently shite!!

Next game can't come quick enough.

[SmallwoodRed]

I still believe everything could be manipulated even with VAR. The context AND on when the EXACT millisecond the VAR assistants draw the line.

It always amazes me that people dont mention this more often. Essentially we are applying micro measurements to offsides via a human being manually pausing a frame on a two dimensional screen and then same human goes on to manually draw lines. Its absolutely astonishing. In the world of science and engineerring or IT that would be laughed out of the room as being in any way reliable.
There is also a different set of skills in play for doing video analysis than there is for match refereeing, yet its match refs that are making the calls. I do a lot of work with golf teaching and graphics and one of the big misunderstandings with golf comes from people trying to match up swing positions on a camera to what they see as perfect reference points from videos or stills of professional golfers. The errors happen because they are looking at the image in 2D and have no means of interpreting actually where the reference points are in relation to actual real depth. In essence they cannot see 3D. When you invert images as VAR does with goal line technology you see that the position from a 2d perspective is entirely different from where it actually is in 3D. This is also where the Doku VAR decision went badly wrong because a 3D image would have clearly illustrated how far off getting the ball Doku was (the ball actually dropping off Macc shoulder and onto Dokus high and raised boot).
VAR refs are making decisions based on inadequate technology and are not properly training to see where the limitations are.

[Knight]

It always amazes me that people dont mention this more often. Essentially we are applying micro measurements to offsides via a human being manually pausing a frame on a two dimensional screen and then same human goes on to manually draw lines. Its absolutely astonishing. In the world of science and engineerring or IT that would be laughed out of the room as being in any way reliable.
There is also a different set of skills in play for doing video analysis than there is for match refereeing, yet its match refs that are making the calls. I do a lot of work with golf teaching and graphics and one of the big misunderstandings with golf comes from people trying to match up swing positions on a camera to what they see as perfect reference points from videos or stills of professional golfers. The errors happen because they are looking at the image in 2D and have no means of interpreting actually where the reference points are in relation to actual real depth. In essence they cannot see 3D. When you invert images as VAR does with goal line technology you see that the position from a 2d perspective is entirely different from where it actually is in 3D. This is also where the Doku VAR decision went badly wrong because a 3D image would have clearly illustrated how far off getting the ball Doku was (the ball actually dropping off Macc shoulder and onto Dokus high and raised boot).
VAR refs are making decisions based on inadequate technology and are not properly training to see where the limitations are.

This needs saying so often. People think video replays straightforwardly provide a more accurate perspective of what happened. Sometimes that's true. But video replays often simply change your perspective rather than providing a more accurate perspective.

[Eeyore]

It always amazes me that people dont mention this more often. Essentially we are applying micro measurements to offsides via a human being manually pausing a frame on a two dimensional screen and then same human goes on to manually draw lines. Its absolutely astonishing. In the world of science and engineerring or IT that would be laughed out of the room as being in any way reliable.
There is also a different set of skills in play for doing video analysis than there is for match refereeing, yet its match refs that are making the calls. I do a lot of work with golf teaching and graphics and one of the big misunderstandings with golf comes from people trying to match up swing positions on a camera to what they see as perfect reference points from videos or stills of professional golfers. The errors happen because they are looking at the image in 2D and have no means of interpreting actually where the reference points are in relation to actual real depth. In essence they cannot see 3D. When you invert images as VAR does with goal line technology you see that the position from a 2d perspective is entirely different from where it actually is in 3D. This is also where the Doku VAR decision went badly wrong because a 3D image would have clearly illustrated how far off getting the ball Doku was (the ball actually dropping off Macc shoulder and onto Dokus high and raised boot).
VAR refs are making decisions based on inadequate technology and are not properly training to see where the limitations are.

The kickpoint is absolutely crucial to offside decisions. You have a forward covering around 10m/s and cameras that operate at 50fps. So if a forward is sprinting at full speed then his position changes by 20cm for every frame. Then add in a defender pushing out and that is 25-30cm per frame.

Add in where the VAR draws the line for the attacking player and defender and the system is wide open to abuse or incompetence™ (Yorky).

A perfect example was the Diaz offside against Spurs. The neutral video operator finds the kickpoint and England immediately says give me the next frame. Choosing which frame the VAR uses massively skews whether a tight offside is given or not.

It was proposed that automated offsides were brought in this season in the Premier League fortunately for the VAR's that didn't happen so they still get all expense paid jaunts to the UAE.

[SmallwoodRed]

The kickpoint is absolutely crucial to offside decisions. You have a forward covering around 10m/s and cameras that operate at 50fps. So if a forward is sprinting at full speed then his position changes by 20cm for every frame. Then add in a defender pushing out and that is 25-30cm per frame.

Add in where the VAR draws the line for the attacking player and defender and the system is wide open to abuse or incompetence™ (Yorky).

A perfect example was the Diaz offside against Spurs. The neutral video operator finds the kickpoint and England immediately says give me the next frame. Choosing which frame the VAR uses massively skews whether a tight offside is given or not.

It was proposed that automated offsides were brought in this season in the Premier League fortunately for the VAR's that didn't happen so they still get all expense paid jaunts to the UAE.

Absolutely. You would need totally automated offside technology to reach the level of adjudication that is being used. That in itself would then hold its own inherent problems of setting margins on where the arm/shoulder starts ends etc. To achieve this we would be so far removed from the original intention of the law then you have to question the whole point of the exercise.
As it is im just fine with Salah being given offside via the linesman.

[JackWard33]

Jesus .. every thread

[Kloppage Time]

Jesus .. every thread

there haven't been any posts about Jesus ... thank god

[kaesarsosei]

International breaks suck.

Just want my Reds back.

Normally would agree, especially after a loss, but I think for once it suits us. Still get the feeling several players are on fumes and/or not fully back up to speed, and we have 2-3 players who should be available again by 31st.

[Crosby Nick]

Normally would agree, especially after a loss, but I think for once it suits us. Still get the feeling several players are on fumes and/or not fully back up to speed, and we have 2-3 players who should be available again by 31st.

Reintegrating the returning players will be interesting. Doubt we’d normally throw a few back in at once, but then everyone will have been away for 10 days or so anyway, and we often can be slightly disjointed after a break. But agree, this time it should hopefully help us.

[lgvkarlos]

Still can't understand how we lost that game, United now the second best team in the league after City😂

It's been Ollie at the wheel part two all week, all the usual suspects crawling out of the woodwork who have suddenly remembered they are Utd fans.