Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[Coolie High]

This seems overly gloomy.  If someone's good enough, they'll make it.

Not really, they’ll make it in general it just might not be at this club, youngsters need opportunity more than anything however good they are, most of our young players who have broke through into the first team in the past have made it because they have the talent but also because at the time they’re breaking through they don’t have several world class players ahead of them in the position they play.

Look at the age profiles of the players ahead of them also, for example how good would Doaks chances be if he was competing with a 24-25 year old Salah instead of one in his 30’s, with Doak we can plan and say within two three years when Salah is on the wane we can earmark him as a replacement it would be different if he was competing with a Salah who just signed though.

[RedG13]

There won’t be a clear pathway for either Bajcetic or Clark if we sign Lavia, that would be five first team midfielders who are 24 or under, we need to start being realistic there isn’t enough room for everyone to thrive.

huh Bajcetic and Lavia can both play 6 and rotate too. Possible play together without trent too.
Clark path not as clear but I dont see him getting more then 500ish minutes this season. Not signing a senior 6th forward leaves paths for Clark, Doak and Gordon. And with Clark would be mean Elliott wider(I view him as MFer but he also play wider)

[Coolie High]

huh Bajcetic and Lavia can both play 6 and rotate too. Possible play together without trent too.
Clark path not as clear but I dont see him getting more then 500ish minutes this season. Not signing a senior 6th forward leaves paths for Clark, Doak and Gordon. And with Clark would be mean Elliott wider(I view him as MFer but he also play wider)

So can Thiago Jones and Macallister too, 6 is a position you tend to stick with one player in there once you’ve made your mind up, you don’t see big teams rotating much in that position.

[RedG13]

So can Thiago Jones and Macallister too, 6 is a position you tend to stick with one player in there once you’ve made your mind up, you don’t see big teams rotating much in that position.

I dont expect Mac Allister and Jones to play there much whenever everybody is settled in. Thiago likely his last season and wont shock me if play farther forward when everybody settled in.
Im not counting out Bajcetic even with likely getting Lavia. Also do think if Possible will go for more rotation at the 6 or at least 60/30 at times. Mostly just as a result of 5 subs and lots of games.

[spider-neil]

There won’t be a clear pathway for either Bajcetic or Clark if we sign Lavia, that would be five first team midfielders who are 24 or under, we need to start being realistic there isn’t enough room for everyone to thrive.

Liverpool isn’t a finishing school. It’s sink or swim.

[farawayred]

Liverpool isn’t a finishing school. It’s sink or swim.

Not sure if serious, but I've been caught on the hook before...

You can't expect people to be a finished product in whatever industry. The kids need to develop. Baicetic was awesome when he played, but he's still a kid. He needs to develop and develop here. No fucking loans, no sales with options to buy; that's how good he is. He will be given the chance, but nothing is guaranteed. We all salivate when a youngster does something extraordinary in an important game, but 9 out of 10 will fade away in obscurity. Let's hope that's not the case with Bajcetic, and that's all.

[collytum]

Sorry but the argument that us signing well established quality midfielders will hinder the development of the younger players is nonsense. If they are good enough they will break into the team and stay there, if not they will leave for a club more suited to their ability. We aren't Southampton, we are liverpool.

[spider-neil]

Not sure if serious, but I've been caught on the hook before...

You can't expect people to be a finished product in whatever industry. The kids need to develop. Baicetic was awesome when he played, but he's still a kid. He needs to develop and develop here. No fucking loans, no sales with options to buy; that's how good he is. He will be given the chance, but nothing is guaranteed. We all salivate when a youngster does something extraordinary in an important game, but 9 out of 10 will fade away in obscurity. Let's hope that's not the case with Bajcetic, and that's all.

I was being serious. If you are good enough you will thrive if not you will forge a career elsewhere. You can bring up examples of KDB and Salah being moved on and becoming world class elsewhere but the team that sold them won silverware.

[farawayred]

I was being serious. If you are good enough you will thrive if not you will forge a career elsewhere. You can bring up examples of KDB and Salah being moved on and becoming world class elsewhere but the team that sold them won silverware.

Yes, I agree, but I think that's too binary of a vision. Trent is a good example for you, but Flanagan is not. There are also people who develop later like VVD for example, or Vardy. You just have to give them a chance. And no, we are not a finishing school, I agree, but individual cases should be judged individually. I think Bajcetic has the potential to make it, like Trent, but Morton, for example, doesn't (and I could be wrong). I'd give Bajcetic the chance while advocating for Morton to try somewhere else to develop, if that makes sense to you.

[spider-neil]

Yes, I agree, but I think that's too binary of a vision. Trent is a good example for you, but Flanagan is not. There are also people who develop later like VVD for example, or Vardy. You just have to give them a chance. And no, we are not a finishing school, I agree, but individual cases should be judged individually. I think Bajcetic has the potential to make it, like Trent, but Morton, for example, doesn't (and I could be wrong). I'd give Bajcetic the chance while advocating for Morton to try somewhere else to develop, if that makes sense to you.

Baj has to be given time but you can’t stop buying top talent from the fear it will block his progress. Liverpool number one objective is success, not whether Baj develops or not.

[Knight]

Baj has to be given time but you can’t stop buying top talent from the fear it will block his progress. Liverpool number one objective is success, not whether Baj develops or not.

This. If you’ve got a promising youngster who isn’t ready and you need a player for his position who is, you buy someone.

[RedG13]

This. If you’ve got a promising youngster who isn’t ready and you need a player for his position who is, you buy someone.

I agree with this. Klopp has shown if he thinks somebody ready to be a squad player or starter even at 18/19, he not blocking them for those Minutes. Trent was not blocked. Jones was not brought over. Elliott was brought in to the squad the Summer Gini and Shaqiri left.
If Klopp views Bajcetic as a Squad player. It going be 7 Senior Midfields of Mac Allister, Jones, Elliott, Dom for the more advanced roles, Bajcetic, Lavia(still needs to be signed looks close), Thiago as the other 3. Gakpo can play in MF too and Clark has the youngster who might get time.

[Bobsackamano]

This. If you’ve got a promising youngster who isn’t ready and you need a player for his position who is, you buy someone.

Theres always going to be a certain amount of game time anyway with injuries, suspensions, the league cup, easy FA Cup fixtures and dead rubber CL group games. I think Baj is going to make it however we should really have a top quality 6 with experience there.

It's the sames with Elliott and Jones, Mac and Dom will be the first choice 8's with Thiago rotating. The younger guys will get a chance but you wouldn't want to start the season without high class experienced players as the 2 regular starters.

[carling]

Have we ever done a Chelsea or United and let go a young Salah, De Bruyne, Pique, Pogba etc?

I don't think so and I can't see it happening under Klopp.  If the youngsters really are good enough I think they'll make it.

[Coolie High]

This. If you’ve got a promising youngster who isn’t ready and you need a player for his position who is, you buy someone.

I’ve seen little of Lavia to suggest he is far more ready than Bajcetic.

[Knight]

I’ve seen little of Lavia to suggest he is far more ready than Bajcetic.

Sure, I wouldn't strongly disagree. I think there are big question marks to the Lavia signing and one of them is we've already got a raw, young wonder kid for the 6 position so it's not clear why we'd buy another. Presumably we (the club) disagrees with your assessment but on paper it's an odd one.

[Barrow Shaun]

What's doing my head in is everyone is assuming this Lavia thing is a done deal but he's not arrived (yet) and I'd say we need two more new players in anyway, and yet are less than 2 weeks from the first game.

Everyone can see we need some defensive cover in this side, just like everyone could see we needed an improved midfield generally, and just like how everyone could see we needed to replace Gini when he left.

[Gerard00]

Equal parts terrified and excited about the midfield this season. It needed a shake up but instead it's gotten an overhaul. Lots of experience lost and at least 1 of the first names on the team sheet in midfield gone (Fabinho).

Bajcetic has looked good but still clearly in a development phase.
Elliott has yet to convince me.
Mac Allister new to the team but looks the most likely first choice in midfield.
Dom new to the league but have high hopes he'll be great.
Lavia potentially new to the team and expectation on him will be huge.
Thiago in and out of the team and can't be relied on to play every, or consecutive weeks.

Regarding TAAs position i think offensively its great - we'll score for fun but can't see how 3 at the back doesn't leave us even more exposed and easy to play through than before. I think this could improve with another really good CB or DM thrown into the mix but i can't see how Konate and TAAs side isn't exposed against teams with wide / pacey forwards. Even with a DM its assumed he'll play on the left side with Trent and Konate still guarding the right.

I guess even when Trent was in there it still got exploited. Going to be an interesting season but the lack of solidity we seen  has me worried we're looking at Rodgers-esque 'you score 3 we'll score 4' type games.

[markiv]

Labia will definitely be eased in this season. I don't see him starting many league games if Thiago is fit. If Thiago is fit, he definitely starts - he's still one of the best midfielders in the league when fit. In the current setup, I can't see Thiago playing as the left sided midfielder anymore because that role has changed a bit with the way we play now. The left midfielder drift wide left a lot, overlapping with Robbo, so this isn't really suited to Thiago and the best position for him is the DM next to Trent.

Both Lavia and Baj will start the Europa & league Cup games and Lavia will probably come on to replace Thiago towards the end of the games.

[JackWard33]

Labia will definitely be eased in this season.

Exactly the right approach - far more receptive to then sliding in to the first team without resistance

[DG]

The argument that we shouldn't sign good players because a youngster might come good makes no sense once you've been on the forum for a while and you realize how many hyped youngsters turn out not good enough before you find one who is. So what you're basically arguing is that we should play a player who's not good enough most of the time, in the hope that he might come good, instead of buying a player that is good enough.

Obviously playing helps development but the risk/reward is ridiculously skewed. Bajcetic might come good, but there's at least ten Pacheco's for every Trent. At least.

[Coolie High]

The argument that we shouldn't sign good players because a youngster might come good makes no sense once you've been on the forum for a while and you realize how many hyped youngsters turn out not good enough before you find one who is. So what you're basically arguing is that we should play a player who's not good enough most of the time, in the hope that he might come good, instead of buying a player that is good enough.

Obviously playing helps development but the risk/reward is ridiculously skewed. Bajcetic might come good, but there's at least ten Pacheco's for every Trent. At least.

The argument doesn’t really make sense in regards to Lavia and Bajcetic who are both relatively unproven, I think a lot of people would prefer a more senior DM than the both of them if given the chance, also it was Klopp himself who mentioned about not blocking the pathway of his most talented youngsters.

[Knight]

The argument doesn’t really make sense in regards to Lavia and Bajcetic who are both relatively unproven, I think a lot of people would prefer a more senior DM than the both of them if given the chance, also it was Klopp himself who mentioned about not blocking the pathway of his most talented youngsters.

Thing is we've sold 2 players who could play as a DM so in reality Bacjetic's path is no more blocked than it was when Fab and Henderson were here. In some ways it's easier for him. Most likely if he's better than Lavia he'll play as our 6. There is the long term question and obviously if Lavia turns out to be worse than Bacjetic there are questions about the wisdom of buying him but if I'm Bacjetic I think I'm pretty happy with how this summer has turned out in terms of getting to play as many minutes as possible.

[farawayred]

Baj has to be given time but you can’t stop buying top talent from the fear it will block his progress. Liverpool number one objective is success, not whether Baj develops or not.

I went to bed last night and didn't see your response. Absolutely agree with this.

[exiledintheUSA]

Equal parts terrified and excited about the midfield this season. It needed a shake up but instead it's gotten an overhaul. Lots of experience lost and at least 1 of the first names on the team sheet in midfield gone (Fabinho).

Bajcetic has looked good but still clearly in a development phase.
Elliott has yet to convince me.
Mac Allister new to the team but looks the most likely first choice in midfield.
Dom new to the league but have high hopes he'll be great.
Lavia potentially new to the team and expectation on him will be huge.
Thiago in and out of the team and can't be relied on to play every, or consecutive weeks.

Regarding TAAs position i think offensively its great - we'll score for fun but can't see how 3 at the back doesn't leave us even more exposed and easy to play through than before. I think this could improve with another really good CB or DM thrown into the mix but i can't see how Konate and TAAs side isn't exposed against teams with wide / pacey forwards. Even with a DM its assumed he'll play on the left side with Trent and Konate still guarding the right.

I guess even when Trent was in there it still got exploited. Going to be an interesting season but the lack of solidity we seen  has me worried we're looking at Rodgers-esque 'you score 3 we'll score 4' type games.

Don't forget Curtis Jones

[dutchkop]

There won’t be a clear pathway for either Bajcetic or Clark if we sign Lavia, that would be five first team midfielders who are 24 or under, we need to start being realistic there isn’t enough room for everyone to thrive.

how come. sorry BS and misguided, we have just lost 6 Snr midfielders from our first team (Milner, Fab, Hendo, Keita, Ox, "Melo") in this transfer window plus Carvalho and Firmino (Plus we also had Thiago, Elliott, Bajcetic, Jones, Clarke) plius we loaned out Sepp vd B, Ramsay, Carvalho, and probably selling Natt Phillips 

 I disagree - by clearing out 5 senior midfielders that were all match squad members when fit to what we have now,

the question will we have enough depth with only Szabo, Mac Allister, Thiago, Elliott, Jones, Bajcetic, Clarke & only Lavia??

we have the smallest squad in the Premier league with 22  .. last year we had 32

we have cleared huge salaries from our books and our squad does not reflect that we have over invested with signing Lavia to our midfield..   I would have expected `1/2 more and maybe some Bosman  or English HG players. Finding first team players with value is becoming very difficult for us.

yes we cannot go out an splash 40, 50, 60M for every talented footballer. But we are very light this season as our recruitment stands.

[David in Edinburgh]

I don't think we should go back to the ankle tappers with a bigger offer. I've hardly seen this lad but I doubt he is significantly better than our  own young midfielders. I'd rather we spent money on established midfielders in their mid twenties. We've lost a lot of experience in midfield and replacing it with youth might be a huge risk.

[dutchkop]

Equal parts terrified and excited about the midfield this season. It needed a shake up but instead it's gotten an overhaul. Lots of experience lost and at least 1 of the first names on the team sheet in midfield gone (Fabinho).

Bajcetic has looked good but still clearly in a development phase.
Elliott has yet to convince me.
Mac Allister new to the team but looks the most likely first choice in midfield.
Dom new to the league but have high hopes he'll be great.
Lavia potentially new to the team and expectation on him will be huge.
Thiago in and out of the team and can't be relied on to play every, or consecutive weeks.

Regarding TAAs position i think offensively its great - we'll score for fun but can't see how 3 at the back doesn't leave us even more exposed and easy to play through than before. I think this could improve with another really good CB or DM thrown into the mix but i can't see how Konate and TAAs side isn't exposed against teams with wide / pacey forwards. Even with a DM its assumed he'll play on the left side with Trent and Konate still guarding the right.

I guess even when Trent was in there it still got exploited. Going to be an interesting season but the lack of solidity we seen  has me worried we're looking at Rodgers-esque 'you score 3 we'll score 4' type games.

Curtis to be included in list above.

Plus I think Henderson was close behind Fabinho as first choice Midfield

Midfield stats from last season - matches played &  mins played last season.
Fabinho      49      3.538' Sold
Harvey Elliott      46      2.265' - probably selected a lot more as RW than in midfield role
Curtis Jones     23      1.169'
Fábio Carvalho   21      638'  Loan
Thiago    28      1.963'
Arthur Melo   1      13' released after loan
Stefan Bajcetic  19      931'
Naby Keïta   13      486' released end of contract
Jordan Henderson   43      2.558'[/s] aols
Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain    13   491' released end of contract
James Milner   43      1.284'      Milner's 31 subs in must be a prem record?  - released end of contract

Mins and games Fabinho nearly 1000 mins more than the closest which was Henderson

I think if anyone may have concern for game time and minutes it maybe Harvey Elliott, Szabo and Mac Allister and Jones plus Thiago are all ahead of him in no 8 role and I think as a RW ifSalah stays fit he may not get as much minutes as last season, I hope I am wrong and he has a stormer of a season, scores & assists, and defensive role and is undroppable

[Coolie High]

how come. sorry BS and misguided, we have just lost 6 Snr midfielders from our first team (Milner, Fab, Hendo, Keita, Ox, "Melo") in this transfer window plus Carvalho and Firmino (Plus we also had Thiago, Elliott, Bajcetic, Jones, Clarke) plius we loaned out Sepp vd B, Ramsay, Carvalho, and probably selling Natt Phillips 

 I disagree - by clearing out 5 senior midfielders that were all match squad members when fit to what we have now,

the question will we have enough depth with only Szabo, Mac Allister, Thiago, Elliott, Jones, Bajcetic, Clarke & only Lavia??

we have the smallest squad in the Premier league with 22  .. last year we had 32

we have cleared huge salaries from our books and our squad does not reflect that we have over invested with signing Lavia to our midfield..   I would have expected `1/2 more and maybe some Bosman  or English HG players. Finding first team players with value is becoming very difficult for us.

yes we cannot go out an splash 40, 50, 60M for every talented footballer. But we are very light this season as our recruitment stands.

We have enough depth in midfield if we sign Lavia the numbers aren’t the problem, Keita and Chmaberlain barely played last year and Milner barely played in midfield at all.

You’ve just named 8 midfielders for 3 positions that’s a good amount of depth, especially when only one of them is injury prone (Thiago).

[dutchkop]

We have enough depth in midfield if we sign Lavia the numbers aren’t the problem, Keita and Chmaberlain barely played last year and Milner barely played in midfield at all.

You’ve just named 8 midfielders for 3 positions that’s a good amount of depth, especially when only one of them is injury prone (Thiago).

3 of those are Thiago (injury prone - hardly available for 40+ games - I hope he proves me wrong this season), Clarke and Lavia (of whoever we actually go for). and a lot of inexperience in the 5 other players.

Harvey Elliott the most minutes and the 2 new guys with a little more experience, mac Allister an important cog in the World Champions, and Szabo an up and coming.

 If Saints are messing us around and wanting upwards of 50M ... I saw someone quote a 60M .. we may as well go and buy someone at the top of the market -for 50-60M
Challenge is to find someone at that level that could transition straight into our first team as Defensive Midfield and compete with Jones and Bajcetic for starting position.

the other factor is our DM play was shocking for 3/4 of the season and we were conceding for fun.

for me it will be interesting to see how Curtis plays the no 6 tomorrow vs Bayern and next week vs Darmstadt  and most importantly how Curtis or our new #6 plays against CHelsea .

I still hope that Klopp and medical staff surprise us and Bajcetic rolls out and plays 45 mins vs Darmstadt and is fit to start vs Chelseas or at least on hte bench if need to sub Curtis at Chelsea. Unless we buy someone world Class I can see Trent, Bajcetic, Jones and Thiago competiting & sharing for the #6 role for us

Trent can play inverted RB and CM for us against teams outside the top 6..like I said I have no idea how Klopp & coaches select players with what we currently have for the next 3 games.

We are indeed running out of time.  The Saudi's have really messed up our prep for the start of this season.

[Knight]

We didn’t have to sell Fabinho and Henderson. We sold them because they’re both crap now and wouldn’t have helped us. We also really needed a 6 even before selling them, because they’re both crap now. If the Saudis have messed us up it’s our fault.

[Schmidt]

A lot of focus on signing a #6 but I'm a little curious how it'll impact us defensively in this setup? If one of our key concerns is the right back area, but Trent will be playing inverted, doesn't that naturally place the #6 too far from the right back area to be effective at mopping up any counterattacks? Or are we just thinking that we'll still be a bit exposed but the odds of a counterattack leading to a goal will decrease?

[Stan.]

I’ve seen little of Lavia to suggest he is far more ready than Bajcetic.

Hmm I dunno.  One of them carried a shocking side last season. 


The other is Lavia.

[mullyred94]

A lot of focus on signing a #6 but I'm a little curious how it'll impact us defensively in this setup? If one of our key concerns is the right back area, but Trent will be playing inverted, doesn't that naturally place the #6 too far from the right back area to be effective at mopping up any counterattacks? Or are we just thinking that we'll still be a bit exposed but the odds of a counterattack leading to a goal will decrease?

RCB job to cover RB and then either the DM or Trent comes back to slot in where the RCB would be.

I'd rather Gomez be 3rd CB than Matip as both CBs either side of the ' sweeper ' will need pace

[Samie]

[wemmick]

Wow. Our current midfielders with Caicedo have more talent and a higher ceiling than any in Klopp's tenure here. Might rival that 2012 Dortmund side.

[amir87]

And the best thing is they’re all not even in their prime yet.

[LifelongRed, Sussex]

This seems overly gloomy.  If someone's good enough, they'll make it.

Would the rest of our budget be better spent on defenders?

[Knight]

Caicedo is an incredible buy. He’s such an athlete that he will cover gaps that Fabinho was nowhere close to being able to cover. Plus no midfield with him in it is going to get bullied physically. Absolutely brilliant.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Woah, woah, woah, We've got the best midfield in the world (again).