Author Topic: Islamism  (Read 197268 times)

Offline GREGtheRED

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #80 on: October 9, 2013, 06:24:31 pm »
I honestly think you're misinterpreting the thrust of their arguments. They don't, to my reading at least, suggest that the west is a root cause of Islamic extremism, but rather that their actions do not help. It is pretty much generally accepted, for instance, that the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and also US drone attacks in Pakistan, have been a dream recruitment campaign for AQ. Milne's language is certainly emotive, at times up helpfully so, but if you asked him "Is the west responsible for AQ terrorism", I think his response would be no. If you asked "Does the west contribute to the popularity of AQ", he would say yes.

This is just my interpretation of his pieces as a reader of the paper. I accept that the tone of his pieces doesn't necessarily help the debate any. I don't get your beef with Jenkins at all though.

AQ have been steadily ground down as a direct result of the efforts of western military and intelligence operations since 2001 in which we have sought them out and hunted them down all across the Islamic world. Now most counter terrorism experts worldwide now believe they are in nowhere near as strong a position to carry out huge attacks such as 9/11 now as they were a decade ago. Of course, the threat is nowhere near eradicated but surely we can claim our strategy has more brought success than many suggest?

Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #81 on: October 9, 2013, 06:24:42 pm »
A whole new interpretation of Rosy Palm and her five sisters....
:D

Offline thegoodfella

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #82 on: October 9, 2013, 06:27:13 pm »
:D

I will have what you're smoking mate. ;)

Offline ۩ Imperator ۩

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #83 on: October 9, 2013, 06:27:49 pm »
I respectfully beg to differ. Al Quaeda means Data Base. It was formed from the Mujahadeen from the "Freedom Fighters" on the CIA "Data Base."

Al Quaeda doesn't mean data base at all. It just means The Base. Bin Laden himself explained it at length. All that database nonsense was a load of old bollocks dreamed up by the Robin Cook, who has no working knowledge of Arabic whatsoever.

However, it is certainly the case that the CIA shot itself in the foot massively and was instrumental in giving AQ it's operational capacity.
« Last Edit: October 9, 2013, 06:31:24 pm by ۩ Imperator ۩ »
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Offline ۩ Imperator ۩

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #84 on: October 9, 2013, 06:36:41 pm »
AQ have been steadily ground down as a direct result of the efforts of western military and intelligence operations since 2001 in which we have sought them out and hunted them down all across the Islamic world. Now most counter terrorism experts worldwide now believe they are in nowhere near as strong a position to carry out huge attacks such as 9/11 now as they were a decade ago. Of course, the threat is nowhere near eradicated but surely we can claim our strategy has more brought success than many suggest?

I think Kenya puts the lie to this.  Recruitment of radical Islamists continues to thrive. Western military forces have undoubtedly dealt severe blows to AQ's command and control structure, but not to their numbers. Instead, they have splintered into a hundred and one smaller groups like Al Shabab which, if anything, are even harder to keep tabs on and even more difficult to predict.  Kenya also suggests a worrying new MO, which will cause huge fear among western interests in the Islamic world. I don't think there is any victory that can be claimed.
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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #85 on: October 9, 2013, 06:37:02 pm »
Al Quaeda doesn't mean data base at all. It just means The Base. Bin Laden himself explained it at length. All that database nonsense was a load of old bollocks dreamed up by the Robin Cook, who has no working knowledge of Arabic whatsoever.

However, it is certainly the case that the CIA shot itself in the foot massively and was instrumental in giving AQ it's operational capacity.
Yep. It does translate to The Base. It was, as I said, the CIA data base that was used to form it. As for Robin Cook, I'd love to know what he'd think of all this now.
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #86 on: October 9, 2013, 06:39:02 pm »
If we look at the "Hand of God" it will have four fingers and one thumb. (Or a Number 10 on the back of a Blue and White striped shirt )
The biggest five religions are all represented by a digit but which one is the Thumb ?
The Thumb can exert more force and friction against the fingers than a finger can against any other finger and the closer it is the more force or friction it can exert. 
We can see how much friction there is between Jews and Muslims, Christians and Muslims, Buddhist and Muslims. Hindu's and Muslims.
So I'd say the Thumb on the "Hand of God" is Islam
We can also see how much/little friction there is between the fingers of God, Jews, Christians, Buddhists and Hindus.
While the thumb may create the most friction does it make it the most dangerous ?
The finger of blame ( Index Finger ) can easily be pointed in their direction but that same finger is also known as the "Trigger finger" and pulling triggers can be very dangerous However the really big scary weapons involve pushing buttons and its the Index finger that pushes those buttons too. I'd say the Christians are the Index finger and by far the most dangerous .
The middle finger in this scenario would be the Jews just flicking this finger can cause offence.
However having said all that its not your average Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist or Hindu who causes all the grief. its the Fundamentalist/extremist who attach themselves to Religion not the Religion itself.
Ultimately these extremist are just people and they are responsible for their own actions.
Without Religion they'd just be a "Rebel without a cause" but they'd still be Rebels.       



This is a very peculiar post, but quite interesting! I'm still trying to decide if I agree with any of it! :)
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Offline ۩ Imperator ۩

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #87 on: October 9, 2013, 06:42:33 pm »
Yep. It does translate to The Base. It was, as I said, the CIA data base that was used to form it. As for Robin Cook, I'd love to know what he'd think of all this now.

Bin Laden said it was named after the base where they did their training. On this issue, I'd favour Bin Laden's analysis, since he came up with the name and did speak Arabic, as opposed to Cook, who didn't and doesn't.

As it was in 2004, Robin Cook's views are probably pretty worthless.
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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #88 on: October 9, 2013, 06:52:35 pm »
Bin Laden said it was named after the base where they did their training. On this issue, I'd favour Bin Laden's analysis, since he came up with the name and did speak Arabic, as opposed to Cook, who didn't and doesn't.

As it was in 2004, Robin Cook's views are probably pretty worthless.
Well, the thing is, I don't believe anything my own or the American government said, regarding Bin Laden. In fact, I really don't believe very much at all of what I'm told by my government or their media. And I could bang on about why, but my only real point in all of this is... saying Muslim extremism is the biggest threat to world peace is sort of like backing the Israeli tanks against the Palestinian kid with a few rocks.

Believe me, I have no love of Islamist extremists. But I'm far more worried about the hawks in western governments, their bosses in the corporatocracy and the Zionists, in Israel and worldwide.
"A peasant you are. A peasant you will remain. And we shall use all our wealth and power, to make your lot even worse and keep you exactly where you are, Bondage!"    The Boy King, Richard II, after  putting down the The Peasants Revolt in 1381.

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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #89 on: October 9, 2013, 06:54:59 pm »
Bin Laden said it was named after the base where they did their training. On this issue, I'd favour Bin Laden's analysis, since he came up with the name and did speak Arabic, as opposed to Cook, who didn't and doesn't.

As it was in 2004, Robin Cook's views are probably pretty worthless.

Watch Adam curtis', the power of nightmares. Will tell you all about how they got their name

Offline ۩ Imperator ۩

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #90 on: October 9, 2013, 07:18:51 pm »
Bin Laden told me all about how they got their name in an interview with Al Jazeera. Why bother with a second hand account?
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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #91 on: October 9, 2013, 07:25:22 pm »
Right then, I'm off. But just wanted to say... the little I've learnt from history and my own experiences, they're all bastards.
"A peasant you are. A peasant you will remain. And we shall use all our wealth and power, to make your lot even worse and keep you exactly where you are, Bondage!"    The Boy King, Richard II, after  putting down the The Peasants Revolt in 1381.

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Offline mulfella

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #92 on: October 9, 2013, 07:47:46 pm »
I respectfully beg to differ. Al Quaeda means Data Base. It was formed from the Mujahadeen from the "Freedom Fighters" on the CIA "Data Base."

Oh well, at least the price of smack came down.

Respectfully I think that's a misinterpretation of the name.

I'm no expert but 'Data base' is only one possible translation and a very modern one at that (though I accept they are a modern phenomenon)

An alternative translation would be just Base, or Foundation or the like.

EDIT: Ah sorry I see Imperator has posted similarly.

I didn't know Bin Laden had explained it, but it certainly fits.

« Last Edit: October 9, 2013, 07:49:44 pm by mulfella »
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'Grammar' and no apostrophe in 'nazis'.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #93 on: October 9, 2013, 08:20:12 pm »
Bin Laden told me all about how they got their name in an interview with Al Jazeera. Why bother with a second hand account?

Did Bin Laden use it first? You should really watch the documentary - it will help your understanding.

He didn't start using the name - he adopted it after Western intelligence services. It was used to help in the trial of terrorists under existing 'anti-mafia' laws. These required an organization name so the prosecution, working with the FBIand others, came up with the name. Osama then adopted it. 

Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #94 on: October 9, 2013, 08:40:07 pm »
The biggest threat to world peace in this day and age is not islamism or any other extremist religious doctrine. The biggest threat remains over-population and over-use of natural resources.  The next major global conflict will be fought over land and power, as always.  The islamist threat is clearly there, but I don't fear it like I fear what happens when the food starts to run out. 

But hey, that's just me.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #95 on: October 9, 2013, 08:46:53 pm »
Add fukishima to that and I agree wholeheartedly. Terror is by definition a disproportionate threat compared to the reality or frequency of it's occurance.

You're still probably going to die because of heart disease, even if them Muslims seem awful scary

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #96 on: October 9, 2013, 10:28:58 pm »
The biggest threat to world peace in this day and age is not islamism or any other extremist religious doctrine. The biggest threat remains over-population and over-use of natural resources.  The next major global conflict will be fought over land and power, as always.  The islamist threat is clearly there, but I don't fear it like I fear what happens when the food starts to run out. 

But hey, that's just me.

Hmm. Richard Dawkins was asked recently about this by Jon Stewart, or a question like it. He said the problem with science is that it's neutral so you can do the greatest evil and the greatest good. He thought it was a distinct possibility that science would end the world by putting unfathomably powerful weaponry into the hands of extremist religions, people who genuinely don't fear death and don't care what happens to the planet and everyone on it if it conflicts with their religion.

It used to be that only governments were powerful enough to have genuinely world ending weaponry, but the state of the art has moved on so much that in a few years, the guys who have car bombs now may have suitcase dirty bombs capable of taking out every mammal on a subcontinent. Can you imagine a weapon like that in the control of a stupid young man who believes he's getting 72 virgins in three, two, one....So that theory is religion + science = armageddon.

Incidentally, the current government impasse in America right now has been engineered by people who believe we are in the End Times and the Second Coming of White Jesus is at hand. The lunacy isn't confined to Islam.

The other theory Dawkins talked about it that interview, and he stressed it wasn't his, was the one that goes like this. We haven't seen any intelligent life on other planets because once a civilisation reaches the stage where it can generate radio waves (the first man made things to leave the planet's atmosphere), the technology then quickly increases exponentially to a point where the civilisation wipes itself out by some means. So you have these planets briefly (in universal terms) lighting up and then poof. Darkness.

Offline B.A. Baracus

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #97 on: October 10, 2013, 12:45:30 am »

Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #98 on: October 10, 2013, 09:22:03 am »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy9tNyp03M0

I do quite like listening to Mehdi Hasan. While I am an atheist and see religious doctrine as often dangerous and easily manipulated, his most salient point in that video is around violence being a minority problem, as it is in all religions.

I don't doubt for a second that there is a greater threat now than at any other time in history of a group of extremist gaining access to a weapon that could cause considerable devastation and even one day threaten our fragile existence. However, when you consider that such weapons have only existed for less than a century, it shouldn't be too big a surprise.

The easiest way to truly threaten all of humanity is via one of two routes. The first is through a weaponised biological agent that can spread quickly and with a high mortality rate. The second is through a cyber-terrorist attack that can spread easily across networks.  While such a threat exists now, I genuinely don't see it as big a danger as a traditional war between nations over power and resources.  Those wars may ultimately lead to the introduction of weapons like the ones above, but I think it's far more likely that the people pulling the trigger will be nation states vainly trying to protect their interests rather than a disparate group of violent radicals.

It may be a naive westerners viewpoint but I generally don't look at extremism in the terms of Islamic or Christian or any other denomination.  Ultimately, extremist viewpoints (regardless of their doctrine) are dangerous (see Hitler).

Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #99 on: October 10, 2013, 09:47:09 am »
Bin Laden told me all about how they got their name in an interview with Al Jazeera. Why bother with a second hand account?
The thing is, would you believe the BBC above Al Jazeera? I certainly wouldn't. I mistrust them all equally.  They are all controlled in some way or another. The BBC are shit scared of losing anymore money.

It's got me to the point were I really don't trust anything I'm told by the media.  There's that much duplicity in this from all sides, it's like watching Wag The Dog. But the bottom line, in my opinion, I'm far more concerned about our own side, the only side to ever Nuke anyone, than I am about 4 Lions getting hold of a dirty suitcase bomb.

We aren't even talking David and Goliath here. We are constantly fed scare mongering hysteria. When the fact is, we are destroying the planet at such a rapid rate the Muslims really don't have to bother. Some boffins reckon there won't be any fish left by 2040. Seems a bit quick, but then there's monster corporations, like Mitsubishi, litterally hoovering all life in the oceans up, and stock piling the good stuff so they'll control the price when it's gone.

Yep. Using god to justify atrocities is a terrible thing. But George Bush, Tony Blair, Bin Laden, God's warriors, Freedom Fighters, Terrorists, pay yer money, take yer choice. I just don't like our kids being sent to the middle east to defend the greed of Shell and so on. And I don't like Muslim kids being slaughtered, starved, maimed, handicapped, orphaned and left homeless in my name. And funny enough, more and more people from the armed forces are starting to say the same thing.
"A peasant you are. A peasant you will remain. And we shall use all our wealth and power, to make your lot even worse and keep you exactly where you are, Bondage!"    The Boy King, Richard II, after  putting down the The Peasants Revolt in 1381.

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Offline ۩ Imperator ۩

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #100 on: October 10, 2013, 11:23:40 am »
Yep, I concur, Fatty.
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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #101 on: October 10, 2013, 12:00:59 pm »
Yep, I concur, Fatty.
But are you sure, I'm not an Al-Queda plant.... I wish I could type the Twighlight Zone music. But I have worked out one thing, I always ask myself who profits out of any given situation. That's usually the smoking gun. And in my opinion, The Central Banks are the biggest evil we face today.

Engineered crisis and austerity is far more of a threat to me than some mad mullah. David Cameron, George Osbourne, Ian Duncan Shite and the likes, are threatening my life far more than some crazed suicide bomber. The daily fight to keep a roof over our heads and bread and potatoes on our table, is hurting me far more than any jihad. My enemies are far closer to home. No Muslim terrorist has ever tried to stop me from feeding my family.

Zealots, eh... The Tories have been told that the figures they are using to justify what they are doing is all wrong. And they've been told, Austerity isn't the way to get the country back on it's feet. IDS... "I don't care. I believe the numbers are right. And we are doing the right thing.'


Sorry for the sloganeering, but all wars are bankers wars. And what could be better than a war on terror. A war with no named enemy, is a war without end. And that's a war with no end to profit.

Turn the fucking computer off at the wall. Turn it back on. Let it reset itself without all the zeros on the end of the figures. People are committing suicide daily over money that never existed. If you're unemployed, or disabled, I reckon the biggest worry you have about Muslims, is being sent to see one that works for ATOS.
"A peasant you are. A peasant you will remain. And we shall use all our wealth and power, to make your lot even worse and keep you exactly where you are, Bondage!"    The Boy King, Richard II, after  putting down the The Peasants Revolt in 1381.

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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #102 on: October 10, 2013, 03:12:56 pm »
See, this is where you (I assume deliberately) misread hose articles. There is no suggestion that Islamic terrorism is the fault of the West.  It is that the West's reaction to and handling of militant Islamism has not helped the situation and in many cases has exacerbated it. It is not an admission of defeat to accept the notion that we might consider finding another way of working, since we have until is point completely failed to temper the surge in popularity of these organizations, particularly among disenfranchised young men in some of the world's poorest countries.

I am not a foreign policy expert, but it is madness in anyone's eyes to repeat courses of action which have failed so badly to have the desired impact. We are NOT responsible for Al Quaeda, but we must do all we can to avoid adding weight to their brand.

If you assume I "deliberately" misread the articles we can't have much of a conversation. Although I disagree with your argument I assume you're sincere. You might do me the courtesy of treating me the same way.

You say that there is no suggestion in the articles that Islamic terrorism is the fault of the West. Well I don't think you're deliberately misreading the articles, but you're sure as hell not thinking intelligently about them if you believe that.

Just go back to the original post for a moment and consider what was said about the importance of understanding the indigenous roots of Islamism - rooted as they are in the North African, Middle Eastern and south Asian scenes.

Islamism is a crisis in the Muslim world and it has tribal, ethnic, socio-economic and ideological roots - as well as religious ones. As an ideology it goes back to the 1920s - long before the state of Israel emerged. Long before America played its supposed role as 'international policeman'. In other words the movement isn't a phantom created by America or Israel - some 'data base' created, Frankenstein like, from  some misconceived CIA experiment. That view is frankly laughable. One cannot speak of Osama bin Laden purely in terms of him being a creature of America. One cannot hope to understand the rise of Islamism simply by pointing to global inequalities between North and South or West and East. And yet look at those articles, particular Seamus Milne's, which was shamefully written while the Twin Towers were still smoking and which have been repeated by him more or less ever since in his Guardian column. There is not a single hint in there that Islamism is anything but a response to American misdeeds. Hence the title, and the argument, of the piece: 'They Can't see why they are Hated'. Not Al-Qaida. But the Americans! The Americans, still counting their dead, can't see why they are hated!!

Why are they hated then? Milne is clear on this. They are hated because of their "unabashed national egotism and arrogance", because of global inequality and poverty, because the international economy has been fixed in American interests, because the US has sent troops to Bosnia and Kosovo (he calls them 'Yugoslavia'!), Somalia, and Iraq (he means Kuwait!), because of Israel and because the US (he means the United Nations!) has levied sanctions and trade embargoes on Saddam's Iraq after the Gulf War).  All this is what "drove" the 9/11 terrorists (he doesn't call them that of course) to "carry out such atrocities, sacrificing their own lives in the process".

God, they sound like great guys don't they?

But that is a travesty of what happened on 9/11. It is also an astonishingly one-sided view of what really drives Islamism. There's zero curiosity from Milne about the indigenous roots of the ideology and the bloody civil-war it is fighting in the Muslim world to capture hearts and minds, or rather intimidate whole sets of people and break the various economies in that part of the world. No, he'd rather make Osama bin Laden out to be another version of Seamus Milne. A good old pluralist, socialist, egalitarian, anti-imperialist fella who wants more "democracy" in the "global economy".  Except of course (he concedes) they're braver than Seamus because they "sacrificed their own lives" to put the world to rights. Madness!

Apart from anything else Seamus Milne never attends to what Osama himself said. He had his reasons for attacking New York and DC. He listed them. Some are for western ears - the stuff about Israel - but some seem mystifyingly obscure. Take his line on East Timor, which Osama cited as a principal reason for the attack on 9/11 (and which Islamist terrorists repeated when they attacked Australian holiday-makers in Bali in 2003). You probably remember East Timor? I do. It was one of the great left-wing causes of the 1980s against Kissinger and Ford. We wanted the Americans to stop backing the Indonesian genocide in the (non-Muslim) half of the island of Timor. Pilger and Chomsky were the most famous spokesmen for this cause. Eventually, the western governments changed course and put an end to the genocide. The UN then intervened and granted independence to East Timor. A great liberation we all thought.

Not Osama though. This is what he said in his explanation for the attack on 9/11. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/monitoring/media_reports/1636782.stm
East Timor and Somalia

Let us examine the stand of the West and the United Nations in the developments in Indonesia when they moved to divide the largest country in the Islamic world in terms of population. We should view events not as separate links, but as links in a long series of conspiracies, a war of annihilation.

This criminal, Kofi Annan, was speaking publicly and putting pressure on the Indonesian government, telling it: You have 24 hours to divide and separate East Timor from Indonesia. Otherwise, we will be forced to send in military forces to separate it by force. The crusader Australian forces were on Indonesian shores, and in fact they landed to separate East Timor, which is part of the Islamic world.

Therefore, we should view events not as separate links, but as links in a long series of conspiracies, a war of annihilation in the true sense of the word.


And nor did the Islamists forget this. You'll the remember the horrendous Islmamist attack on the UN headquarters in Bagdhad? Course you do. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3165737.stm

Then you'll also remember that they killed their main target - the Brazilian envoy to the UN, Sergio Viera de Mello. A brilliant man, a democratic socialist, and the man the UN chose to help construct a democratic Iraq in 2003. But of course he was also the man who the UN appointed to stop the genocide of Christians in East Timor and help a long-suffering and colonised people back on to its feet. That's why the Islamists killed him (and 22 other people).

What motivates the Islamists is Imperialism. It happens to be Islamic imperialism, and it also happens to be Fascistic in its politics. It is NOT a last-ditch anti-imperialist movement that is simply checking American aggression in the world, much as Seamus Milne gets his kicks from portraying it as such.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 03:16:29 pm by yorkykopite »
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #103 on: October 10, 2013, 03:22:12 pm »
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #104 on: October 10, 2013, 03:54:47 pm »
Islamism is a crisis in the Muslim world and it has tribal, ethnic, socio-economic and ideological roots - as well as religious ones. As an ideology it goes back to the 1920s - long before the state of Israel emerged.

Or earlier?

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The ambassador answered us that [their right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.

Those words were spoken to Thomas Jefferson when he was Ambassador to France in 1786 by the Tripoli Ambassador, Abdul Rahman Adja. The context was that American and European ships were being attacked by pirates in the Med by Barbary Muslims, with over a million westerners kidnapped and enslaved, according to the above source, which also notes that this was America's first overseas conflict.

The eventual outcome of that conflict is contained in the famous Treaty of Tripoli of 1797, which many right wing fundamentalist Christians now deny ever happened because...well, they're fucking stupid.

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As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext, arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

The article I got all that from (source above) makes the following point. When terrorists say their motivation is religious, people always look to other, deeper underlying causes. Maybe it is quite simply the religion.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #105 on: October 10, 2013, 04:13:43 pm »
Indeed Corky, that Jefferson assertion is deeply embarrassing to fundamentalist Christians in America (mind you they're embarrassed by the Declaration of Independence too which fails to mention any Christian God - or Jesus)

Likewise those who think Islamism is simply a brave version of anti-Americanism are also embarrassed by the example you've given from the Barbary Wars.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline the oxonian

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #106 on: October 10, 2013, 04:40:20 pm »
The context was that American and European ships were being attacked by pirates in the Med by Barbary Muslims, with over a million westerners kidnapped and enslaved, according to the above source, which also notes that this was America's first overseas conflict.

cheers, you've just made up my mind, going to get the book 'white gold' about the white slave trade

Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #107 on: October 10, 2013, 05:00:30 pm »
Yorky, you're a very clever man. Nobody disputes that. It's like having an argument with my aul fella. He used to drive me crackers. I'd come out with a perfectly reasonable opinion, even back it up with some fact sometimes. And whether he agreed or destroyed it, it was always the same m.o... Well, lad, in 19 o dot and a half, the agreement of timbucktoo was signed with red ink from the quill of King Louis the 14th's desk by The Grand old Duke of York and 10,000 men.

No doubt, you'd have loved debating him. And I'm the first to admit, I'd leave you's to it and watch the telly or go and play pool or something. But, the but is... Islamism, the most dangerous evil in our world?

Surely not. And as I've said in my own simplistic terms, the Muslim's I would most fear are the ones working for ATOS. But, even though my business has been all but destroyed by Austerity, and I'd be better off signing on than going to work, I get no assistance from the State whatsoever.

In fact, get on this... I went to sign on the dole, well, I went looking for some part time thing to pick up the slack, and they told me, and I qoute... "Go to the church." I kid you not, I sat down with my "Job Advisor" and they advised me to go the parish.

I'm not moaning. We are luckier than most. We are getting by. But in my world, I'm far more afraid of the violence on the streets caused by young people left in them with no home, food, money or hope, than I am about some crazed Muslim.

Is Islam a violent religion? Will Muslims not cease until they have created an Islamic world? I'm sure there's plenty of them that feel that way and will justify it by qouting the Koran. But it's still their bible bashing, Christian brethren that scare me more. And I worry more about my grandkids having a future of poverty put on them by the Christian right, than I am about them trotting round in Burkhas.

And I know you don't rip into me, because we get along. But that is my honest opinion, and feel free to give me gyp for it.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #108 on: October 10, 2013, 05:24:40 pm »
Fats, I ain't gonna rip into you. When it comes down to it friendship, even the stuff we call friendship over the internet, is more important than politics. And I consider you a pal. Also the older I get the more I believe that the way you conduct political arguments is as important as the opinions that are expressed in those arguments. Let's face it - there are still too many places in the world where political quarrels quickly turn violent. We're lucky in this country. It's rare indeed for disagreements to become bloody, even bitter ones over class and power.  Of course I think you're wrong on this question! If I had any hope of persuading you of that I might give it a go. But I'd rather do that over a pint than over a keyboard. I'll say one thing though. If you were living in Lahore, say, or Tripoli or Nairobi or Bagdad - you might think differently. The people who really know what a threat Islamism is to peace and any hope of prosperity are the poor bloody Muslims who are constantly terrorised by them. The Islamists are to them what the Blackshirts were to us - except far more violent and murderous. And - unfortunately - far more influential.

That won't last forever though. Fascists always get beaten in the end.
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Offline thegoodfella

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #109 on: October 10, 2013, 05:57:11 pm »
I'll say one thing though. If you were living in Lahore, say

Well yorky I live in Lahore and to be honest with you, it isn't as bad as it is in the east of the country towards the Durand Line which goes unnoticed by people living in those parts. But I agree with you, fascism always gets beaten in the end and this particular kind will be beaten with more schools, colleges and universities and less 'boots on the ground'.

Offline ۩ Imperator ۩

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #110 on: October 10, 2013, 05:57:18 pm »
Beautifully articulated post Yorky.

Indeed it is. My problem with it is that it overstates Milne's position.

For what it's worth, when you tell me you don't deliberately misread those articles, I believe you. I do believe you misread them, but likewise so do you believe I did. I guess we'll never agree, but you have given me pause for thought on some of these questions, although my overall views remain unchannged. One thing I do certainly agree with you on is that it was an editorial error by the Guardian to publish that article at the time when it did.
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Offline The Fletcher Memorial

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #111 on: October 10, 2013, 05:58:49 pm »
This is a boss thread. In context with other threads, though, it’s a fucking gem!
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it is in the minds of men where such distinctions are made, and then they believe them to be true.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #112 on: October 10, 2013, 06:24:23 pm »
I'm sure you don't but every day in your name we throw uranium tipped shells at thousands of people and melt the faces off their kids.
Any country that drops depleted uranium bombs anywhere is guilty of terrorism.
Kill the humourless

Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #113 on: October 10, 2013, 06:27:09 pm »
Bloody Hell Yorky, I didn't mean you to stone and behead me. A mild rebuke and a tut-tut would have done.

But in all seriousness, I would love my arguments to be proved wrong. Because the older I get, the more cynical my view is becoming. Mind you, I never did believe anything they told me. It's just that I didn't give a toss. But things like Grandkids change that.

Turn the telly on. The demonizing of the poor is constant. They make out we are all Shameless Phillpotts. When the fact is, 6% of the welfare budget is spent on the chronically unemployed. The last time I recieved any money from the State was in 1986. I'd be happy to never get another penny, and I probably won't, anyway. So, the biggest evil facing people like me at the moment, is coming from Westminster not West of Baghdad. And knowing that, because I face the realities of it every day, I refuse to fall for the demonizing of Islam. They need a scapegoat to keep us distracted from fighting back. Divide and Conquer.

Yep. I know holding up the peace sign and saying Salum malakum or Solidarity Brother, wouldn't stop Muslim extremists from  doing me in. But then, I'd expect even less empathy from the likes of Cameron.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #114 on: October 10, 2013, 06:36:50 pm »
Indeed it is. My problem with it is that it overstates Milne's position.

For what it's worth, when you tell me you don't deliberately misread those articles, I believe you. I do believe you misread them, but likewise so do you believe I did. I guess we'll never agree, but you have given me pause for thought on some of these questions, although my overall views remain unchannged. One thing I do certainly agree with you on is that it was an editorial error by the Guardian to publish that article at the time when it did.

But it was one they kept on making. In fact the day before, on September 12th 2001, they invited this well known nut to put his (ever venal) point of view. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/sep/12/september11.britainand9112?guni=Article:in%20body%20link.

Note too how the headline - 'Reaping the whirlwind' - continues the 'it's all blow-back' theme.

I have it in for the Guardian especially, I suppose, because it was my paper. It was the paper I chose when I was 16 because it was the only one apart from the Mirror which gave the Labour party a fair shot. Later I realised that it was also full of great journalism and some excellent writers - people like James Cameron and Martin Walker. But I've had a slow and growing disillusionment with it since 2001 and decided after the Martin Jenkins article on Nairobi I quoted earlier that I wouldn't be buying it again. I mean what the hell is that old Tory doing writing a regular column in the Guardian in the first place? But, always, his stuff is so full of western self-hatred. The piece on Al-Shabab looks like a joke, but it isn't. What it does is rehearse some of the weird obsessions of the Guardian newspaper when it comes to talking about Islamism.

I challenge you Impy! Read it again and tell me it's not a bad joke.
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Offline thegoodfella

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #115 on: October 10, 2013, 07:07:06 pm »
But it was one they kept on making. In fact the day before, on September 12th 2001, they invited this well known nut to put his (ever venal) point of view.

You do realize yorky that the words of this 'well known nut' resonate with a fair bit of people in these parts of the world, so there is a chance, albeit a small one, that he might be on to something? I don't agree with him most of the times, but he isn't a nut all of the times either.

Islamism is a crisis in the Muslim world and it has tribal, ethnic, socio-economic and ideological roots - as well as religious ones. As an ideology it goes back to the 1920s - long before the state of Israel emerged. Long before America played its supposed role as 'international policeman'. In other words the movement isn't a phantom created by America or Israel - some 'data base' created, Frankenstein like, from  some misconceived CIA experiment. That view is frankly laughable.

And I don't quite agree with it being an ideology that goes back to the 20s either, because you can keep digging and find multiple splinter ideologies with religious roots springing before this fascist one, but the peculiar thing here is this one found the oxygen it needed during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. At least that's the case with what's happening in Pakistan these days. Every name that pops up in the papers is linked to that conflict one way or the other and how they rose in prominence during their 'struggle' against the 'godless Russians'. Even their fucking narrative is based on how they defeated the mighty superpower once and how they will defeat them again.

So you can have your argument about how old the ideology is, the West made a vital mistake in arming these neanderthals and letting the Middle East set up religious schools in Pakistan. I talk with people who have seen the 50s and 60s here, and I hear stories of how they fell in love with Ava Gardner when she came to Lahore to film her movie, and how they saw Lebanese belly dancers in a bar in Karachi. It all went tits up when Zia ul Haq sent Bhutto to the gallows because he had a stench of socialist about him, and if you can put two and two together, I'm sure you will be able to see which nation didn't mind it much.

Offline ۩ Imperator ۩

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #116 on: October 10, 2013, 07:16:42 pm »
But it was one they kept on making. In fact the day before, on September 12th 2001, they invited this well known nut to put his (ever venal) point of view. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/sep/12/september11.britainand9112?guni=Article:in%20body%20link.

Note too how the headline - 'Reaping the whirlwind' - continues the 'it's all blow-back' theme.

I have it in for the Guardian especially, I suppose, because it was my paper. It was the paper I chose when I was 16 because it was the only one apart from the Mirror which gave the Labour party a fair shot. Later I realised that it was also full of great journalism and some excellent writers - people like James Cameron and Martin Walker. But I've had a slow and growing disillusionment with it since 2001 and decided after the Martin Jenkins article on Nairobi I quoted earlier that I wouldn't be buying it again. I mean what the hell is that old Tory doing writing a regular column in the Guardian in the first place? But, always, his stuff is so full of western self-hatred. The piece on Al-Shabab looks like a joke, but it isn't. What it does is rehearse some of the weird obsessions of the Guardian newspaper when it comes to talking about Islamism.

I challenge you Impy! Read it again and tell me it's not a bad joke.

Just checking, I assume you mean the Simon Jenkins piece and that Martin Jenkins was a slip of the mind? Just checking you don't want me to read another piece.  I am about to re-read the Simon Jenkins one and will get back to you.
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Offline armchair-fan

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #117 on: October 10, 2013, 07:21:56 pm »
But it was one they kept on making. In fact the day before, on September 12th 2001, they invited this well known nut to put his (ever venal) point of view. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/sep/12/september11.britainand9112?guni=Article:in%20body%20link.

Note too how the headline - 'Reaping the whirlwind' - continues the 'it's all blow-back' theme.

I have it in for the Guardian especially, I suppose, because it was my paper. It was the paper I chose when I was 16 because it was the only one apart from the Mirror which gave the Labour party a fair shot. Later I realised that it was also full of great journalism and some excellent writers - people like James Cameron and Martin Walker. But I've had a slow and growing disillusionment with it since 2001 and decided after the Martin Jenkins article on Nairobi I quoted earlier that I wouldn't be buying it again. I mean what the hell is that old Tory doing writing a regular column in the Guardian in the first place? But, always, his stuff is so full of western self-hatred. The piece on Al-Shabab looks like a joke, but it isn't. What it does is rehearse some of the weird obsessions of the Guardian newspaper when it comes to talking about Islamism.

I challenge you Impy! Read it again and tell me it's not a bad joke.

Blimey, they actually published that bile from Galloway on 12th September 2001?  Nobody has ever pointed that out to me before.  Presumably Gorgeous George must have been typing that up the day before?

It is extremely difficult to comprehend the mentality of people who covertly hire a shop in a mall, slowly sneak in an arsenal of weaponry and then decide to kill a random selection of people who happen to be in the mall that day.  And for what, because they were decadent capitalist pigs, because there were unveiled women there, in order to draw attention to their cause, to gain concessions from the Kenyan or Somali authorities?  What did they think was going to happen?

It's all a bit pop psychology, but is latching on to this bizarre death cult, just something that gives young lads (and it generally is young lads) some feeling of belonging (the way some of us latch on to Liverpool FC?) some way to simplify a horribly complicated world, some way to feel powerful and important?  I can (almost) see the appeal.

Because none of the other explanations fit, not poverty, I mean look at bin Laden's background, not growing up without political representation, the four lads who blew themselves and all those others up on 7/7 grew up just down the road from me.  It's hard to imagine that those lads who stabbed the soldier in Woolwich weren't just mentally deranged, had they been growing up in the 70s might it have been radical socialism they embraced, or perhaps some violent nationalism in the 30s?

It's hard to believe that solving the plight of the Palestinians or undermining the cabal of Zionists and big business that control the US (in their view) would have changed the course of Michael Adebolajo's life dramatically, to use just one example.

As has been mentioned, I believe the Muslim Brotherhood, very much the inspiration for al-Zawahiri (and I presume countless other bigots) has it's roots in 1920s Egypt, long before Israel, or promiscuous Western women or many of the other justifications offered.

Sorry, I'm rambling now, but hats off for the thread Yorkykopite, from an admirer of your posts (if that doesn't sound too creepy).


Offline ۩ Imperator ۩

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #118 on: October 10, 2013, 07:23:06 pm »
Was wondering why the name Martin Jenkins was familiar to me, and of course it's because of Test Match Special!

I just re-read Simon Jenkins' Nairobi piece, and have to confess I agree with every word if it. He criticizes the West's response to a succession of terrorist atrocities, and contends that their actions have been counter-productive, "refreshing rather than diminishing extremism". You may not agree that that is the case, but it is a perfectly reasonable way of examining the evidence in my view.
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Offline ۩ Imperator ۩

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #119 on: October 10, 2013, 07:26:52 pm »
As a point of fact to several contributors, while it is true to state that the modern State of Israel was formed in 1948, it is daft to suggest that Israel has only been an influence in the region since then. The history of Israel dates back at least 3200 years.

It is also worth noting that the Israelites' documented history of conflict with everyone around them dates back to over 1500 years before the institution of Islam.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 07:31:16 pm by ۩ Imperator ۩ »
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In a free state there should be freedom of speech and thought.
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