Author Topic: Grenfell Tower Fire  (Read 139792 times)

Offline puroresu_kid

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1040 on: July 1, 2017, 07:19:53 pm »
A Grenfell tower victim had their rent taken today.

A brand new low

Good grief

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1041 on: July 1, 2017, 07:40:43 pm »


It's a sorry state of affairs where you actually start to hope there's a riot.  Because you know a lot of people will get hurt, and it will get hijacked by people just looking for a fight.  But you honestly feel like you're out of options when it comes to protest because you're so fucking angry and the establishment is basically just laughing right in front of your face and snapping its fingers right underneath your nose.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1042 on: July 3, 2017, 05:34:04 am »
Heroic firefighters have been gagged from talking about the full horror at Grenfell Tower amid fears the true death toll will top 100.

The order from bosses has been revealed by several Fire Brigade sources who grimly insisted the official figure of 80 dead will soar.

They spoke as authorities were accused of masking the total of those who perished in the inferno.

One firefighter, who did not want to be named, told the Sunday Mirror: “We’ve been told by our management don’t speak, ideally. The coroner has said it could obstruct the investigation. I don’t know how it can – what’s happened has happened, but that’s what we’re being told.”

A union rep for the Fire Brigades Union said: “We know the death toll will be higher than the official figure – and we’re not talking about one or two higher. There’s a strong possibility we are talking about three figures.”

But the authorities say they can only release confirmed details and that it will take months to establish exactly how many people perished in the June 14 fire at North Kensington, West London.

Officials do not want to cause further upset by releasing figures until they are certain. The lack of clarity over the number of bodies still inside Grenfell has caused great distress among locals.

And David Lammy, the Labour MP for Tottenham, said survivors and loved-ones of the missing needed better ­information.

He said: “I am very concerned the Government and the Metropolitan Police have not allayed fears in relation to the numbers.

“Firefighters confirm larger numbers than 80. Survivors are also suggesting numbers well in excess of 100.

“And yet 17 days after the fire we have no list of survivors, the police have said we will have to wait until the end of the year for numbers.

"It’s causing huge anxiety for people who want closure as they wait for news of their loved-ones and it feeds deep mistrust amongst the victims and survivors themselves.

“Trust is at rock bottom and the community need reassuring that the police, local authority and central government are doing all they can to at least come up with an estimation of how many people were in Grenfell Tower and how many survived.”

A police spokesman said the search and rescue operation to find those who died was still ongoing and would take “a considerable period of time”.

He said: “The Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) is unable to say with certainty the final number of people who died. The MPS will provide details when we know them to be accurate.

"We have also stated that we fear the number who have died may rise as we better understand if there was anyone in Grenfell Tower that we have not yet been told about.

“We continue to support the families of those missing and are working tirelessly to provide answers. The complexity of this work should not be underestimated.

"Names of the deceased will only be published once formal identification has taken place in agreement with the coroner and with family agreement.”

So far, police say they have spoken to at least one resident from 106 of the 129 flats in the building.

But there are still 23 flats where they “presume no one survived”. Their task is more difficult because of inaccuracies in the list of tenants provided by the Tenant Management Organisation. And it would not have included visitors, many children or anyone illegally subletting.

A London Fire Brigade spokeswoman said they were unable to comment due to the ongoing police investigation.

The Tory leader and deputy leader of Kensington and Chelsea Council have both resigned and London Mayor Sadiq Khan has called for independent commissioners to run the borough.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/heroic-grenfell-tower-firefighters-gagged-10722903#ICID=sharebar_twitter
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1043 on: July 3, 2017, 07:13:20 am »
A Grenfell tower victim had their rent taken today.

A brand new low
were they direct debits? Not unfeasible they weren't all cancelled, pretty certaint they'd get a refund



It's a sorry state of affairs where you actually start to hope there's a riot.  Because you know a lot of people will get hurt, and it will get hijacked by people just looking for a fight.  But you honestly feel like you're out of options when it comes to protest because you're so fucking angry and the establishment is basically just laughing right in front of your face and snapping its fingers right underneath your nose.
It's not just a Tory issue though, and of course McDonnell's idiotic comments deserve serious censure what with the potential legal ramifications of them just so he got a cheer from some kids at glasto

Offline rob1966

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1044 on: July 3, 2017, 10:09:34 am »
were they direct debits? Not unfeasible they weren't all cancelled, pretty certaint they'd get a refund


To me it shows incompetence in the local council. It must have occured to someone that rents were being taken by DD. It would have taken a couple of minutes to get a list from the database of all active DD's for the tower and to put a freeze on claiming them.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1045 on: July 3, 2017, 10:31:51 am »
To me it shows incompetence in the local council. It must have occured to someone that rents were being taken by DD. It would have taken a couple of minutes to get a list from the database of all active DD's for the tower and to put a freeze on claiming them.

The stories I have seen have been vague. Do we even know if they rented directly from the housing association? I can easily believe that a private landlord did not cancel the direct debit.

People will screw up loads around this. This is a very high pressure situation that will be alien to the council staff who it has fallen upon. They will have had their numbers slashed over the last 7 years so there is no slack in the system. It would be shocking if they did cope.

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1046 on: July 3, 2017, 10:46:02 am »
To me it shows incompetence in the local council. It must have occured to someone that rents were being taken by DD. It would have taken a couple of minutes to get a list from the database of all active DD's for the tower and to put a freeze on claiming them.

Council's are notoriously slow on this shit.  You can wait months to squeeze a rebate out of them but the minute you own them money you flipping well know about it.

That said, you're dealing with ordinary people; these council workers are monitoring details of thousands of people and nobody knows how many have even died.  It's inevitable victims will fall through the cracks.

In terms of the death toll, it's less about nobody knowing who has died as it is the refusal to speculate.  I remember about 20 years ago, one of our infamous train crashes, and the papers were climbing all over each other trying to outshock with ever grander casualty figures.  Think it might actually have been the Rag that plastered "100 Dead" on their front page at one point - turned out it was about 35 or thereabouts.

This grim determination on the part of the authorities to not even go for a ballpark final casualty figure, to insist on sticking strictly to the official figures, shows to me that they fear a similar running away of things - a loss of control that could perhaps trigger a riot.  A desire to maintain peace and order and wait until tempers are calmer can be seen as common sense, but feel free to attach whatever motivation you choose.

It's not just a Tory issue though, and of course McDonnell's idiotic comments deserve serious censure what with the potential legal ramifications of them just so he got a cheer from some kids at glasto

You're not wrong in McDonnell being a shameless opportunistic political bastard, but he is only one man.  There's an entire system at work here and the very concept of the cost cutting that has contributed to this mess was a political act.  There's a difference between being opportunistic and having the right to ask the questions that need to be asked without being accused of dancing on the graves of the victims.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1047 on: July 3, 2017, 12:22:35 pm »
Heroic firefighters have been gagged from talking about the full horror at Grenfell Tower amid fears the true death toll will top 100.

The order from bosses has been revealed by several Fire Brigade sources who grimly insisted the official figure of 80 dead will soar.

They spoke as authorities were accused of masking the total of those who perished in the inferno.

One firefighter, who did not want to be named, told the Sunday Mirror: “We’ve been told by our management don’t speak, ideally. The coroner has said it could obstruct the investigation. I don’t know how it can – what’s happened has happened, but that’s what we’re being told.”

A union rep for the Fire Brigades Union said: “We know the death toll will be higher than the official figure – and we’re not talking about one or two higher. There’s a strong possibility we are talking about three figures.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/heroic-grenfell-tower-firefighters-gagged-10722903#ICID=sharebar_twitter

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Offline Trada

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1048 on: July 3, 2017, 12:29:36 pm »
'So I thought I'd run to a national newspaper and make some money from it'?

Where is the proof they got paid?
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1049 on: July 3, 2017, 12:32:44 pm »
Where is the proof they got paid?

I don't have any. Likewise I am assuming the source wasn't a firefighter at Grenfell, given the attribution

Offline puroresu_kid

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1050 on: July 3, 2017, 04:40:44 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/03/grenfell-survivors-issue-12-demands-to-pm-to-overhaul-response-to-tragedy

Quote
  Survivors of the Grenfell Tower fire are writing to the prime minister with 12 demands for change in the way the disaster is being handled.

At a meeting in parliament last week, about 150 survivors of the fire and BMElawyers4Grenfell, a team of black and minority ethnic lawyers who are supporting them, condemned what they described as the failures of the government and the Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea (RBKC) to deal with the tragedy appropriately. They warned that unless the terms of reference of the inquiry change significantly the trust of the community will be undermined.

The letter to the prime minister, written by lawyers on the survivors’ behalf, is based on feedback from the meeting.

The shadow home secretary, Diane Abbott, called the meeting, which was also attended by the shadow justice minister, Richard Burgon, Kensington MP Emma Dent Coad and Tottenham MP David Lammy.

The survivors say it is vital that the inquiry maintains public confidence when it begins. Their demands include:

Ensuring a properly diverse expert panel sits alongside the inquiry judge to advise on a variety of issues, including housing need, fire and safety construction;

Response team to be available to survivors 24 hours a day

Withdraw Sir Martin Moore-Bick from heading up the inquiry

Centralise all donations into one charity and produce a full record of monies collected;

The home secretary to confirm in writing within 28 days that undocumented survivors are given full UK citizenship forthwith;

Guarantee that the interim findings will be made public within four months.
 

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1051 on: July 3, 2017, 04:54:01 pm »
Council's are notoriously slow on this shit.  You can wait months to squeeze a rebate out of them but the minute you own them money you flipping well know about it.

That said, you're dealing with ordinary people; these council workers are monitoring details of thousands of people and nobody knows how many have even died.  It's inevitable victims will fall through the cracks.

In terms of the death toll, it's less about nobody knowing who has died as it is the refusal to speculate.  I remember about 20 years ago, one of our infamous train crashes, and the papers were climbing all over each other trying to outshock with ever grander casualty figures.  Think it might actually have been the Rag that plastered "100 Dead" on their front page at one point - turned out it was about 35 or thereabouts.

This grim determination on the part of the authorities to not even go for a ballpark final casualty figure, to insist on sticking strictly to the official figures, shows to me that they fear a similar running away of things - a loss of control that could perhaps trigger a riot.  A desire to maintain peace and order and wait until tempers are calmer can be seen as common sense, but feel free to attach whatever motivation you choose.

You're not wrong in McDonnell being a shameless opportunistic political bastard, but he is only one man.  There's an entire system at work here and the very concept of the cost cutting that has contributed to this mess was a political act.  There's a difference between being opportunistic and having the right to ask the questions that need to be asked without being accused of dancing on the graves of the victims.


Is right on the money. The cover-up is under way; the information flow has ground to a halt; and the survivors are beginning to feel they're already history!! Explosivity potential? You betcha!!
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Offline SP

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1052 on: July 3, 2017, 05:26:42 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/03/grenfell-survivors-issue-12-demands-to-pm-to-overhaul-response-to-tragedy

BMELawyers4Grenfell sound like they should be advertising on ITV4. "Ensuring a properly diverse expert panel sits alongside the inquiry judge" is a little insidious. The expert panel should be subject matter experts. They do not need to be diverse, they need to be the competent in their field. This is not a box ticking exercise, this is a serious inquiry to determine the causes of a catastrophic fire.

"Centralise all donations into one charity and produce a full record of monies collected" is beyond the powers of the government - different charities have collected money, there is rightfully no power available to the government to seize those monies.


Offline classycarra

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1053 on: July 3, 2017, 06:15:38 pm »
BMELawyers4Grenfell sound like they should be advertising on ITV4. "Ensuring a properly diverse expert panel sits alongside the inquiry judge" is a little insidious. The expert panel should be subject matter experts. They do not need to be diverse, they need to be the competent in their field. This is not a box ticking exercise, this is a serious inquiry to determine the causes of a catastrophic fire.

"Centralise all donations into one charity and produce a full record of monies collected" is beyond the powers of the government - different charities have collected money, there is rightfully no power available to the government to seize those monies.



Was thinking the same thing. I hope they're receiving better advice alongside the advice that group, Burgon and Abbott are offering.

There's no rationale provided for wanting to withdraw Moore-Bick either.

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« Reply #1054 on: July 4, 2017, 11:52:45 am »
I see Labour MPs Emma Dent Coad and (major Corbynista) Chris Williamson have coordinately called for Moore-Bick not to head the inquiry. This before the terms of reference have even been announced.

Dent Coad criticised him as a "technocrat". I would have thought all parties should want a technically skilled judge heading the inquiry. Depressing hearing Labour MPs talking like Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove about experts.

MP in Derby, Williamson said "I think it's important that we listen to the survivors... local people are saying they don't have faith in him"

source http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40491449

Offline TALBERT

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1055 on: July 4, 2017, 06:20:44 pm »
How can there possibility be an enquiry that will blame the Government?

Surely everyone else is to blame? This has cover up written all over it.

Long, drawn out cover up!
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1056 on: July 4, 2017, 08:19:51 pm »
How can there possibility be an enquiry that will blame the Government?

Surely everyone else is to blame? This has cover up written all over it.

Long, drawn out cover up!

There is no human involvement in the physical causes of the spread of the fire. I don't see how the causes will be fudged. So given an accurate assessment of the causes of the fire, the room for suppressing how those circumstances arose is tiny. There is no one to pin the blame on. They can hardly accuse the residents of dowsing the cladding in kerosene.

The blame will be pinned on mid ranking bureaucrats. But enough will be exposed to allow very difficult questions to be asked of previous governments.

It is not like Orgreave or Hillsborough with a convenient set of people to demonise. The Bradford fire is probably the closest analogue.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1057 on: July 5, 2017, 10:20:53 am »
This is a disturbing read, in the sense that it seems more like investigative journalism than a conspiracy theory:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/05/grenfell-fire-public-inquiry-stitch-up-red-tape-regulation-policy-exchange

(click on the link for the fully referenced version)

The Grenfell inquiry will be a stitch-up. Here’s why

George Monbiot

A public inquiry where the government chooses charges, judge and jury puts the bonfire of regulations outside the frame. An independent commission is needed.

We don’t allow defendants in court cases to select the charges on which they will be tried. So why should the government set the terms of a public inquiry into its own failings? We don’t allow criminal suspects to vet the trial judge. Why should the government approve the inquiry’s chair?

Even before the public inquiry into the Grenfell Tower disaster has begun, it looks like a stitch-up, its initial terms of reference set so narrowly that government policy remains outside the frame. An inquiry that honours the dead would investigate the wider causes of this crime. It would examine a governing ideology that sees torching public protections as a sacred duty.

Let me give you an example. On the morning of 14 June, as the tower blazed, an organisation called the Red Tape Initiative convened for its prearranged discussion about building regulations. One of the organisation’s tasks was to consider whether rules determining the fire resistance of cladding materials should be removed for the sake of construction industry profits.

Please bear with me while I explain what this initiative is and who runs it, as it’s a perfect cameo of British politics. It’s a government-backed body, established “to grasp the opportunities” that Brexit offers to cut “red tape” – a disparaging term for public protections. It’s chaired by the Conservative MP Sir Oliver Letwin, who has claimed that “the call to minimise risk is a call for a cowardly society”. It is a forum in which exceedingly wealthy people help decide which protections should be stripped away from lesser beings.

Among the members of its advisory panel are Charles Moore, who was editor of the Daily Telegraph and the chair of an organisation called Policy Exchange. He was also best man at Letwin’s wedding. Sitting beside him is Archie Norman, the former chief executive of Asda and the founder of Policy Exchange. He was once Conservative MP for Tunbridge Wells – and was succeeded in that seat by Greg Clark, the minister who now provides government support for the Red Tape Initiative.

Until he became environment secretary, Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove was also a member of the Red Tape Initiative panel. Oh, and he was appointed by Norman as the first chairman of Policy Exchange. (He was replaced by Moore.) Policy Exchange also supplied two of Letwin’s staff in the Conservative policy unit that he used to run. Policy Exchange is a neoliberal lobby group funded by dark money, that seeks to tear down regulations.

The Red Tape Initiative’s management board consists of Letwin, Baroness Rock and Lord Marland. Baroness Rock is a childhood friend of the former Tory chancellor George Gideon Oliver Osborne, son of Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon and Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock, educated at St. Paul's and Magdalen College, Oxford, and is married to the wealthy financier Caspar Rock. Marland is a multimillionaire businessman who owns a house and four flats in London, “various properties in Salisbury”, three apartments in France and two apartments in Switzerland.

In other words, the Red Tape Initiative is a representative cross-section of the British public. In no sense is it a self-serving clique of old chums, insulated from hazard by their extreme wealth, whose role is to decide whether other people (colloquially known as “cowards”) should be exposed to risk.

Letwin’s initiative appointed a panel to investigate housing regulations. It includes representatives of trade unions and NGOs, though they are outnumbered by executives and lobbyists from the industry. And there – surprise, surprise – is a man, called Richard Blakeway, from Policy Exchange.

The panel’s task on 14 June was to consider a report that the Red Tape Initiative had commissioned whose purpose was to identify building rules that could be cut. Among those it listed as “burdensome” was the EU Construction Products Regulation, which seeks to protect people from fire, and restricts the kind of cladding that can be used.

What was the source of the report’s assertion that this regulation was unnecessary? One of the sources was a column in the Sunday Telegraph by Christopher Booker. He has a fair claim to being more wrong more often than any other British journalist – quite an achievement, given the field. While Grenfell Tower was smouldering, the panel members decided that on this occasion they would not recommend the removal of the regulation.

But the Red Tape Initiative, gruesome spectre that it is, continues its work. It is one of many such schemes set up in recent decades, by Conservatives and New Labour. Recent examples are David Cameron’s Star Chamber (yes, that really was the name he gave it), in which ministers were interrogated by a panel of corporate executives; and the Cutting Red Tape programme, which boasts that “businesses with good records have had fire safety inspections reduced from six hours to 45 minutes”.

One of the results of this bonfire of regulation is the government’s repeal in 2012 of the fire prevention measures in the London Building Act. Had they remained in place, the Grenfell fire is unlikely to have risen up the tower. This assault on public protections is just one element of the compound disaster that neoliberalism –promoted by opaquely funded groups such as Policy Exchange –has imposed on Britain since 1979. Its central purpose is not just to empower corporations and the very rich, but actively to disempower everyone else, through austerity, outsourcing and privatisation.

An inquiry that failed to investigate such possible causes would be a farce. It would do nothing to prevent any similar catastrophes from recurring. It would do nothing to stop the rich from destroying other people’s protections, as the Red Tape Initiative threatens to do.

But this is what we have been offered so far by a government that can choose charges, judge and jury. There’s an urgent need for an independent commission whose purpose is to decide when inquiries should be called, what their terms should be, and who should chair them. Governments should have no influence over any of these decisions.

On 14 June a facade caught fire, in more senses than one. A blinkered inquiry threatens to clad the origins of this great crime, shielding their embarrassing ugliness from public view. We cannot, and must not, accept it.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1058 on: July 5, 2017, 10:46:16 am »
I don't think we are seeing a classic "cover up" in the way we saw with Hillsborough or Orgreave.  What I think we are seeing is a deliberate attempt to inhibit the flow of information until such time as the authorities think the general public "can handle it", so to speak.

This is about controlling and limited the public's response, waiting for heads to cool.  As I said earlier, you can argue about the motives behind such actions; whether it is for the public good so that cool heads can make arguments in a structured setting, or whether it is simply an attempt to prevent the kind of backlash against years of mistreatment that could trigger the sort of riots that could topple a weak and vulnerable government.

Either way I don't think they can keep a lid on what they know in the medium term.  The story will be told.  It's simply a question of when it is told, by whom, and how.  If the right sort of investigative journalists can get to this before the authorities are ready to release it, then the manner of it getting into the public domain will certainly make it look like a cover up.  The stakes are high.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1059 on: July 5, 2017, 03:26:57 pm »
Grenfall survivors to be given a 12-month immigration amnesty. How nice of the government.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1060 on: July 5, 2017, 04:16:36 pm »
The immigration minister said: “This period of leave to remain for those directly affected by the fire will provide survivors with the time to deal with the extremely difficult circumstances in which they find themselves and start to rebuild their lives while considering their future options, as well as to assist the police and other authorities with their inquiries about the fire.”

So basically - 'do us a favour, and cooperate. But if you could also consider leaving please, that'd be great'

Anyone else read it that way?

If this is supposed to entice those otherwise lacking in trust to openly communicate with authorities, 12 months seems unlikely to me to be worth it.

Offline whiteboots

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1061 on: July 5, 2017, 04:20:25 pm »
We don’t allow defendants in court cases to select the charges on which they will be tried. So why should the government set the terms of a public inquiry into its own failings? We don’t allow criminal suspects to vet the trial judge. Why should the government approve the inquiry’s chair?

Even before the public inquiry into the Grenfell Tower disaster has begun, it looks like a stitch-up, its initial terms of reference set so narrowly that government policy remains outside the frame. An inquiry that honours the dead would investigate the wider causes of this crime. It would examine a governing ideology that sees torching public protections as a sacred duty.

The wider the terms of reference of any enquiry, the longer it takes, and the more diluted it becomes.

The need to quickly establish the material risks to occupants in similar tower blocks ( around 30,000) and associated buildings ( thousands more) is paramount.

The Public Enquiry need not be the end of the matter, the Judge is free to make any further recommendations he or she chooses.

It should be possible to establish the pivotal facts quickly. To what specification was the Greenfell refurb commissioned? Did these meet building regs? Were substitute materials used? ( If so by whom and why?) Was the refurb work done to specification? Was it checked and by whom? Are current building regs adequate? Is the inspection regime adequate? What are the procedural checks and balances between cost saving/value for money and safety? These are all matters of fact and record. It should not take long to establish them.

Beyond that there are policy questions behind the Labour deregulation of fire regulation controls and the Tory resistance to a building regs review seemingly both driven by a desire to reduce "red tape".

Beyond that there is the impact of Council cuts over the years and the impact they have had on Social Housing. Has the line been crossed where safety has been compromised?

A major concern for me is the seeming failure of all cladding on all tower blocks. These will have been installed by different companies by different councils using different materials. That smacks of systemic failure.

The challenge here is going to be ensuring that those directly accountable for what has gone wrong at Greenfell are quickly charged ( within twelve months) and ensuring that wider, and probably different broader issues are dealt with quickly.

The legacy of Hillsborough, the rebuilding of most football grounds with no subsequent crowd related deaths as a consequence, came about quickly, in advance of Governmental dictat. The same decisive action is  required on tower block safety.




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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1062 on: July 5, 2017, 04:21:54 pm »
The immigration minister said: “This period of leave to remain for those directly affected by the fire will provide survivors with the time to deal with the extremely difficult circumstances in which they find themselves and start to rebuild their lives while considering their future options, as well as to assist the police and other authorities with their inquiries about the fire.”

So basically - 'do us a favour, and cooperate. But if you could also consider leaving please, that'd be great'

Anyone else read it that way?

If this is supposed to entice those otherwise lacking in trust to openly communicate with authorities, 12 months seems unlikely to me to be worth it.

Its not worth it in reality.

Offline 12C

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1063 on: July 5, 2017, 04:36:55 pm »
Grenfall survivors to be given a 12-month immigration amnesty. How nice of the government.

I notice the right wing commentators (inc. Hartley Brewer on LBC)  are already pushing the "sub letting" agenda implying that subletting of flats was rife. Nice bit of blaming. Saying they should not get 'amnesty' from prosecution, the usual one law for 'us' one rule for 'them' shite. These people were put in harms way for a variety of reasons, most of it to do with making money, but they could at least show some concern for the dead and missing
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1064 on: July 5, 2017, 04:41:38 pm »

A major concern for me is the seeming failure of all cladding on all tower blocks. These will have been installed by different companies by different councils using different materials. That smacks of systemic failure.



Nope,it smacks of them (developers/architects/local councils) not giving a flying fuck,you will notice that no high end towers have failed the tests & the Scots didn't even have to test because they gave a fuck back in the 90s.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1065 on: July 5, 2017, 04:44:26 pm »
Grenfall survivors to be given a 12-month immigration amnesty. How nice of the government.

But I thought the government said a couple of weeks ago, that anyone who came forward their immigration status would not be check or even cared about. 
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1066 on: July 5, 2017, 04:50:28 pm »
But I thought the government said a couple of weeks ago, that anyone who came forward their immigration status would not be check or even cared about. 

Its operation immigrant removal and reduction at the moment so for the Tories this is another opportunity.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1067 on: July 5, 2017, 05:08:09 pm »
I think the differentiation is the contact with the police concerning who was there was announced as ignoring immigration status. They want to find who died and who got out.

In reference to the rehousing and recovery efforts, I don't think a similar pledge was made before now. The council were too bloody disorganised to make any such pledge.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1068 on: July 5, 2017, 07:30:26 pm »
Nope,it smacks of them (developers/architects/local councils) not giving a flying fuck,you will notice that no high end towers have failed the tests & the Scots didn't even have to test because they gave a fuck back in the 90s.
The new building regs in Scotland followed a fire in 1999, and were not implemented until the 21st Century.

It is unclear whether the Grenfell  fire was affected by sub standard materials, substitute materials, or fitting issues. Judge the Scottish response as you will.

The current English building regs affect public and private housing. The incentive to cut costs in the private sector is even greater as the developer pockets the savings.

How many high end private towers have the cladding- and been tested?


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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1069 on: July 5, 2017, 08:07:38 pm »


It is unclear whether the Grenfell  fire was affected by sub standard materials, substitute materials, or fitting issues. Judge the Scottish response as you will.



No,it is pretty clear that the tower went up how it did because of a combination of both subpar cladding and the absoloute mental decision to use  the more expensive and highly flammable Celotex as insulation.

The Scots acted where as our 'leaders' ignored expert advice,loosened regulations and sat on reports.Had our politicians got up off their arses after the Knowsley Heights fire there would be at least 80 people still alive today.
« Last Edit: July 5, 2017, 08:13:13 pm by WhereAngelsPlay »
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1070 on: July 5, 2017, 10:58:01 pm »
No,it is pretty clear that the tower went up how it did because of a combination of both subpar cladding and the absoloute mental decision to use  the more expensive and highly flammable Celotex as insulation.

Are you claiming that the materials met building regs? Are you claiming that no substitute materials were used? Did the insulation material meet building regs? Was it and the cladding properly installed? Was it properly inspected?

I do not think that any of the above, at this stage, is clear.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1071 on: July 6, 2017, 12:13:56 am »
Read my posts or better still how about reading the thread.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1072 on: July 6, 2017, 07:59:12 am »
Read my posts or better still how about reading the thread.

I have.

Only a few, like yourself, seem happier racing to conclusions, rather than waiting to see where the facts go.

In this instance, I suspect that the facts, as they emerge, will be more damning than  barrack room judgements.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1073 on: July 6, 2017, 08:38:13 pm »
I have.

Only a few, like yourself, seem happier racing to conclusions, rather than waiting to see where the facts go.

In this instance, I suspect that the facts, as they emerge, will be more damning than  barrack room judgements.

Yeah just people like me.

Oh and various councils,countries,fire service personnel and lets not forget the actual manufacturers of the materials that were used on the damn building or I suppose that you think that they pulled said materials from sale for use on high buildings out of the goodness of their hearts.

I would ask you what experience you have in the field but you are not worth my time.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1074 on: July 6, 2017, 08:49:58 pm »
Yeah just people like me.

Oh and various councils,countries,fire service personnel and lets not forget the actual manufacturers of the materials that were used on the damn building or I suppose that you think that they pulled said materials from sale for use on high buildings out of the goodness of their hearts.

I would ask you what experience you have in the field but you are not worth my time.
None of the above have drawn any conclusions in advance of the facts. That is wise.

That you are unable to ask questions, preferring assumptions, does not surprise me.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1075 on: July 7, 2017, 11:44:58 pm »
Saw Grenfell for the first time since the fire on my way to Westfield today. Fucking hell, it's one of the most harrowing things I've ever seen. Seeing it in the dark on the way back was very disturbing too, the pitch black silhouette really stands out against the skyline. Seen it a thousand times on the TV but it still didn't prepare me for seeing it in person.

Has anything been said yet about what they're going to do with the building after the investigation is finished? Part of me thinks it should be kept up forever as a constant reminder to never ever neglect the most needy in our society again, that slowly siphoning off profit at the expense of the poor just isn't worth it. But having seen it in the flesh now, I can only imagine how traumatic it must be to see every day for people who knew any of the victims.
« Last Edit: July 7, 2017, 11:55:08 pm by Xabi Gerrard »

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1076 on: July 8, 2017, 01:04:52 am »
Surely they'll level it when all is said and done. Can't imagine what it would be like to see everyday
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1077 on: July 10, 2017, 07:07:10 pm »
From this evening's Evening Standard

Around 255 people escaped the Grenfell Tower inferno, police revealed today.

Scotland Yard said they had estimated that around 350 people should have been living in the tower but about 14 were not at home on the night.

Police still believe around 80 people died in the blaze and 32 people have been positively identified.

However, they believe up to 10 people had also escaped the blaze but, for unknown reasons, have not chosen to come forward and seek help.

Police say the intensity of the fire means that some victims may never be identified.
Officers are gathering debris from the tower by hand and sifting though the material to look for remains .

Commander Stuart Cundy said police were working to identify people as fast as possible and re-iterated an appeal for people who had fled the fire to come forward.

The home office has announced an amnesty for immigration offences and there will be no prosecution of anyone who sub-letted flats.

Officers say it is becoming increasingly harder to identify victims.
Commander Cundy said there was no evidence to support some theories that as many as 600 people were living in the tower.

It comes after Sadiq Khan ordered an urgent review of equipment for firefighters after claims crews were hampered by shortages while tackling the blaze.

The Mayor pledged firefighters will get "exactly" the equipment they need after firefighters told the BBC they experienced problems with equipment and water pressure, and a high ladder did not appear on the scene until half an hour after the first fire crews were sent.
A total of 73 people had been reported missing.

Police were taking DNA from survivors to identify some of the dead.

Anthropologists and archaeologists have been brought in to help the painstaking search of the 23-storey block which is expected to take until the end of the year to complete.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 07:11:09 pm by Alan_X »
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1078 on: July 10, 2017, 07:32:16 pm »
My priest in church said yesterday that temperatures in the tower reached 200 C hotter than in a crematorium.  It's unsurprising the authorities are struggling to even find human remains, much less identify them.  But that figure of 80 still seems way too low.  The way it's been handled has been such a botch job that many people will never believe that figure and will always be convinced the true figure has been covered up.

Was walking down towards Walton Road the other day.  Noticed a tower block being stripped of its cladding.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #1079 on: July 10, 2017, 07:42:41 pm »
So the figures of 170-350 dead were bollocks. No doubt there will be dim-witted conspiracy theorists who claim there are hundreds of bodies hidden somewhere.

What's really tragic is that the idiots like Lily Allen who peddled rumours and attacked the police for only reporting what was confirmed will have done untold damage and spread alarm for no good reason.

Still who gives a fuck about the truth? 
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