Topic: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance

[gemofabird]

Need to bin the energy drink cup and FA cup next year if this is how it leaves at end of season

[BoRed]

Need to bin the energy drink cup and FA cup next year if this is how it leaves at end of season

Arsenal binned them off this year and they're ending the season the same way. If anything, it was the EL run that did the damage. Playing Thursday and Sunday all the time is gruelling, especially with the Sunday game typically being the tougher one, against opposition that had more time to rest. Being in the CL next year will help, even with the expanded group stage.

[Barneylfc∗]

On present form we are nowhere near overwhelming favourites for our next two games. Our league position suggests we are okay fair enough but there are so many other factors not least including the fact Fulham haven't played this week and we look absolutely devoid of energy the last few weeks.

Since the League Cup final on 25th Feb, Fulham have played 7 games.
In the same timeframe, we have played 12.

We had 14 players playing 1676 minutes over the international break.
Fulham had 12 players away playing a total of 1393 minutes.

Their league form isn't great since the break, with a draw, 2 defeats and a win last time out against West Ham.
By comparison, we've had 3 wins (including last night v Atalanta), a draw and 2 defeats in all competitions.

We're rightly favourites I think, but considering the amount of games played and form, we should not be anywhere near the bookies price of 1/2.

[Mister Flip Flop]

Since the League Cup final on 25th Feb, Fulham have played 7 games.
In the same timeframe, we have played 12.

We had 14 players playing 1676 minutes over the international break.
Fulham had 12 players away playing a total of 1393 minutes.

Their league form isn't great since the break, with a draw, 2 defeats and a win last time out against West Ham.
By comparison, we've had 3 wins (including last night v Atalanta), a draw and 2 defeats in all competitions.

We're rightly favourites I think, but considering the amount of games played and form, we should not be anywhere near the bookies price of 1/2.

i'd agree we are favourites but i was making the point overwhelming favorites is stretching it. Fulham will be treating the game as their cup final also let's not forget as all these smaller clubs do.

[Fromola]

I mean, the wheels looked well and truly off last season in the first half against Arsenal (H), and then we got a result and things turned around. Much of the support had basically given up then, too.

Again, like in that Arsenal game, I think Trent will determine how things go - whether we have a sign of life or we're done. If he's fit and can get into form, there is hope.

We just need to dog a win against Fulham and take it from there.

Key after the Arsenal game was our schedule was favourable. Out of Europe, out the cups, most games at home and the away games were against the teams who went down. We played City/Chelsea/Arsenal in a week and then had a good run of fixtures. We only got 2 points out of City/Chelsea/Arsenal though and it left us too far behind.

I'm therefore not so concerned about the last 3 because the schedule eases. It's the scheduling of the next 3 and that was already an issue before we lost the plot.

[Fitzy.]

The odd thing about this is that Klopp’s set such high standards that this dip in form is taken so badly by the fan base. We operate at such a high level that there’s apparently no tolerance for anything other than fillet steak. Kind of odd how Klopp’s being judged against such cripplingly high expectations.

[palimpsest]

I understand the disappointment, but I think some perspective is badly needed. This is a brand new team. Nobody expected us to be challenging this year. The fact that we ended up doing so and were in the run for four trophies changed the narrative and the expectations. Klopp's announcement also raised the stakes. If we finish the season with top four and a trophy, I will be more than happy. It's a fantastic place to build from.
I also think that as we bid farewell to the most influential Liverpool manager of our generation, it is disrespectful to renege on the one thing he's ever asked from us: to turn from doubters into believers. The players look tired and shot, but we owe it to Klopp to believe until the very end and try to infuse some energy into the team, instead of passively await trophies and entertainment. There's so little Klopp time left. Why would we waste it on being miserable?

Onwards and upwards.

[Jm55]

The odd thing about this is that Klopp’s set such high standards that this dip in form is taken so badly by the fan base. We operate at such a high level that there’s apparently no tolerance for anything other than fillet steak. Kind of odd how Klopp’s being judged against such cripplingly high expectations.

To be fair, to continue with your analogy there’s an element of, if someone told you for 9 months that it was likely you were getting fillet steak and you ended up with a burger you’d not be as appreciative of the burger as you might have been had your expectations not been so set in the first place.

That’s obviously also testament to the manager but after Wembley I was convinced that we’d win at least one more, it was only 2 weeks ago we were favourites for the title and it all feels a bit like it’s imploded within a few days. That’s always going to be a hard to take and I’m sure when people settle down and the dust settle the attitude of the fanbase will move with it.

A win on Sunday and it all changes again, especially if Wolves can get something.

[Eeyore]

i'd agree we are favourites but i was making the point overwhelming favorites is stretching it. Fulham will be treating the game as their cup final also let's not forget as all these smaller clubs do.

According to the exchanges then Liverpool have a 62.5% chance of winning the game, 20% chance of draw and a 17.5% chance of a Fulham win. A Liverpool win is overwhelmingly the most likely outcome of the possible outcomes.

[Yorkykopite]

The odd thing about this is that Klopp’s set such high standards that this dip in form is taken so badly by the fan base. We operate at such a high level that there’s apparently no tolerance for anything other than fillet steak. Kind of odd how Klopp’s being judged against such cripplingly high expectations.

That's true. We have fantastic expectations. It's also true that it is Jurgen's own creative brilliance that has helped inflate those expectations. But I don't find it odd - as opposed to unfair - that our tolerance for failure has consequently become lower. Every Title chase against a financially doped and - yes - superb football team like Man City involves extraordinarily high levels of hysteria. And each campaign becomes yet more hysterical. We all recognise the madness of what Liverpool are trying to do and the levels of perfection that are required merely in order to keep in the race. Practically all of us are now hysterics. It's inevitable.

Add in the fact that this is Jurgen's last season and we are faced with the awful possibility that this season might therefore be our last chance for a long time and the hysteria becomes ten-times worse. I panic at the thought of failure myself, no matter how calm I try to be. I absolutely understand why Anfield was so nasty v Palace. It was unfair, it was demented, it was unkind. But it wasn't odd. People were surely howling against the cosmos (as it were) and not Jurgen and the lads.

The only thing to say is that if we do win the Title the celebrations and the outpourings of love will be unprecedented. There'd be a level of euphoria that would surpass Rome, Istanbul and Madrid. And none of it will be hypocritical.

And win, or lose, when the dust settles the love for Jurgen Klopp will be forever. I hope he knows that in the frantic weeks ahead.

[Guz-kop]

The odd thing about this is that Klopp’s set such high standards that this dip in form is taken so badly by the fan base. We operate at such a high level that there’s apparently no tolerance for anything other than fillet steak. Kind of odd how Klopp’s being judged against such cripplingly high expectations.

I think if we knew klopp was staying and had faith we would enhance the squad again, we would be happy with this season if we finished on 89 points, 2nd/3rd with league cup. We'd be very confident for next year

[Hij]

That's true. We have fantastic expectations. It's also true that it is Jurgen's own creative brilliance that has helped inflate those expectations. But I don't find it odd - as opposed to unfair - that our tolerance for failure has consequently become lower. Every Title chase against a financially doped and - yes - superb football team like Man City involves extraordinarily high levels of hysteria. And each campaign becomes yet more hysterical. We all recognise the madness of what Liverpool are trying to do and the levels of perfection that are required merely in order to keep in the race. Practically all of us are now hysterics. It's inevitable.

Add in the fact that this is Jurgen's last season and we are faced with the awful possibility that this season might therefore be our last chance for a long time and the hysteria becomes ten-times worse. I panic at the thought of failure myself, no matter how calm I try to be. I absolutely understand why Anfield was so nasty v Palace. It was unfair, it was demented, it was unkind. But it wasn't odd. People were surely howling against the cosmos (as it were) and not Jurgen and the lads.

The only thing to say is that if we do win the Title the celebrations and the outpourings of love will be unprecedented. There'd be a level of euphoria that would surpass Rome, Istanbul and Madrid. And none of it will be hypocritical.

And win, or lose, when the dust settles the love for Jurgen Klopp will be forever. I hope he knows that in the frantic weeks ahead.

In one.

[Fromola]

The odd thing about this is that Klopp’s set such high standards that this dip in form is taken so badly by the fan base. We operate at such a high level that there’s apparently no tolerance for anything other than fillet steak. Kind of odd how Klopp’s being judged against such cripplingly high expectations.

We were woeful pretty much all last season but there was no real discontent. Any club that are losing games there's moans, but there's been more discontent over a ticket price hike than anything on the pitch.

The disappointment over the Atalanta tie is blowing Klopp's chance to sign off with a European trophy, in what would have been his last match, and over the last two league games, a likelyhood we've blown a great chance to sign off with a league title in his last match at Anfield.

[alonsoisared]

That's true. We have fantastic expectations. It's also true that it is Jurgen's own creative brilliance that has helped inflate those expectations. But I don't find it odd - as opposed to unfair - that our tolerance for failure has consequently become lower. Every Title chase against a financially doped and - yes - superb football team like Man City involves extraordinarily high levels of hysteria. And each campaign becomes yet more hysterical. We all recognise the madness of what Liverpool are trying to do and the levels of perfection that are required merely in order to keep in the race. Practically all of us are now hysterics. It's inevitable.

Add in the fact that this is Jurgen's last season and we are faced with the awful possibility that this season might therefore be our last chance for a long time and the hysteria becomes ten-times worse. I panic at the thought of failure myself, no matter how calm I try to be. I absolutely understand why Anfield was so nasty v Palace. It was unfair, it was demented, it was unkind. But it wasn't odd. People were surely howling against the cosmos (as it were) and not Jurgen and the lads.

The only thing to say is that if we do win the Title the celebrations and the outpourings of love will be unprecedented. There'd be a level of euphoria that would surpass Rome, Istanbul and Madrid. And none of it will be hypocritical.

And win, or lose, when the dust settles the love for Jurgen Klopp will be forever. I hope he knows that in the frantic weeks ahead.

Lovely post Yorky. God I hope we find a way to do it.

[Egyptian36]

The odd thing about this is that Klopp’s set such high standards that this dip in form is taken so badly by the fan base. We operate at such a high level that there’s apparently no tolerance for anything other than fillet steak. Kind of odd how Klopp’s being judged against such cripplingly high expectations.

Shows how genius Klopp is and how much he overachived. Such a shame he is against cheats and the corrupted PGMOL.

[GreatEx]

According to the exchanges then Liverpool have a 62.5% chance of winning the game, 20% chance of draw and a 17.5% chance of a Fulham win. A Liverpool win is overwhelmingly the most likely outcome of the possible outcomes.

Those are crazy odds, and if I was a gambler I'd be all over it.

Remember how well they'd played at Anfield, we had to blam in 4 thunderbastards to scrape out a narrow win. Now consider how much better they tend to play at home, our present form and that we played in Italy on Thursday while Fulham trained and planned for Sunday, and I think it's at best a 33% each way proposition. Someone on the last page rated our chances on this three game stretch as 60%, 60% and 50% respectively, but I would have Fulham as the hardest of the set, and that's taking into consideration our penchant for drawing at Woodison.

[BobPaisley3]

Was listening to a discussion last night and one of the contributors was saying we intentionally expended minimal energy against Atalanta in the second half because even if we’d gone hell for leather, the chances of going through were so minimal that it would have messed us up totally for the run in had the lads completely tired themselves out, lost anyway and then gone to Fulham with no legs. The point being that at least this way, there’s something in the tank for this next three games and we aren’t starting any of them 3-0 down.

[God's Left Peg]

On present form we are nowhere near overwhelming favourites for our next two games. Our league position suggests we are okay fair enough but there are so many other factors not least including the fact Fulham haven't played this week and we look absolutely devoid of energy the last few weeks.

Absolute nail on head there. Out of steam and out of ideas.

I'd like to see some of the younger members squad get a run out, for their energy, but suspect that our rhythm may have gone at this point.

[Fromola]

Was listening to a discussion last night and one of the contributors was saying we intentionally expended minimal energy against Atalanta in the second half because even if we’d gone hell for leather, the chances of going through were so minimal that it would have messed us up totally for the run in had the lads completely tired themselves out, lost anyway and then gone to Fulham with no legs. The point being that at least this way, there’s something in the tank for this next three games and we aren’t staring any of them 3-0 down.

Subconsciously, if anything.

In reality, we're a bit of a one half team these days. It's just usually the second half we come out firing after an insipid first half.

[Fitzy.]

We were woeful pretty much all last season but there was no real discontent. Any club that are losing games there's moans, but there's been more discontent over a ticket price hike than anything on the pitch.

The disappointment over the Atalanta tie is blowing Klopp's chance to sign off with a European trophy, in what would have been his last match, and over the last two league games, a likelyhood we've blown a great chance to sign off with a league title in his last match at Anfield.

This is all true and disappointing. However, I’m seeing such vitriol online and things like “Klopp’s time to go…” as if he’s presiding over a side bumbling about in 9th. There is an overreaction taking place.

[meady1981]

Well I’ve given up completely, hate football and didn’t renew my Now subscription.



Win at Fulham and I’ll be giddy again and straight on the Now app.

[Demo]

Just a general question if/when we win the league! 
In comparison to any of the previous 19 how would it rate in your opinion?
My first game was in 82 so i've seen us win quite a few and i have my own favourites obviously. 

[thejbs]

At this point, it would feel as miraculous as Istanbul. Especially if we’re behind going into the last game.

[Eeyore]

This is all true and disappointing. However, I’m seeing such vitriol online and things like “Klopp’s time to go…” as if he’s presiding over a side bumbling about in 9th. There is an overreaction taking place.

Maybe you shouldn't base your life and expectations on what you read on the internet. An example would be a poster on here called Al you should read some of the shit he has posted.

Being serious for a moment. If you look at a couple of the topics you have started the corruption fallacy and the twitter whoppery ones. You do seem to base a lot of your opinions on what in essence is the demented ramblings of idiots, trolls and whoppers. For me a huge proportion of what is posted online is done anonymously by people without genuine intentions.

[Fitzy.]

Just a general question if/when we win the league! 
In comparison to any of the previous 19 how would it rate in your opinion?
My first game was in 82 so i've seen us win quite a few and i have my own favourites obviously. 

It would be the best given the odds and the nature of the baddie we’re up against

[lionel_messias]

There is nothing worth speculating on:

Just beat Fulham.

A week's work from Sunday from this team can make all the difference.

Some form from Darwin, Jota, Dom, Trent can transform the mood of everyone
on this forum.

Just. Beat. Fulham.

[spider-neil]

Just concentrate on finishing the season strongly. Anything beyond that is a bonus. Our strong finish to last season really helped us build momentum even though we finished 5th.

[Fitzy.]

Maybe you shouldn't base your life and expectations on what you read on the internet. An example would be a poster on here called Al you should read some of the shit he has posted.

Being serious for a moment. If you look at a couple of the topics you have started the corruption fallacy and the twitter whoppery ones. You do seem to base a lot of your opinions on what in essence is the demented ramblings of idiots, trolls and whoppers. For me a huge proportion of what is posted online is done anonymously by people without genuine intentions.

Don’t be so hard on yourself, you’ve got a lot to offer.

[kaesarsosei]

Now that the season is nearly over there's a few things that we can look back on and see why things panned out.

Bajcetic & Thiago - did anyone think last August that we would get absolutely nothing from them all season? I didn't, and that combined with Fabinho and Henderson leaving abruptly means it was a miracle we are here at all especially since the remaining MF'ers have all had injuries at some point too AND been overplayed when they are available (Macca)

Gravenberch - likewise I thought we would get more but despite occasional glimpses, he really hasn't contributed and that has made the load on our 4 primary MF's even worse. I think Klopp has completely given up on him for the remainder and it will be down to the next manager to decide if he has a future here

TAA & Robbo long term injuries - we've never missed one of them before for such an extended period, never mind both and at overlapping times (and with Tsimikas too at one point). Bradley was an incredible stroke of luck that stopped it being even worse together with the fortune that Gomez has been available and rock-solid in any position all season

Alisson injury - Kelleher is a great nbr 2 for an occasional game in the cups (as good as any nbr 2 in the league) but no backup keeper by definition is good enough to play the amount of top-priority games he has, and it has cost us

Matip - he would 100% have racked up more minutes than Konate this season if not for his ACL. Konate's form has been very mixed all season. Quanseh was another stroke of good fortune that saved us from worse and have us where we are. And VVD being back to his very best was not something everyone predicted either

Jota injury - the timing of this could have been worse since he carried us through the AFCON, but it was still a massive blow and at this point it looks like basically the rest of his season is about getting his form and fitness back and he won't be a major asset

Salah - he's dropped off a cliff with his first major injury since joining us, no other way to put it. To the extent where it's a major questionmark about extending him

Diaz/Gakpo - Diaz especially has looked good a lot of the time, and he has scored a few crucial goals, but ultimately these two aren't getting enough numbers

Nunez - still on the fence. His numbers are reasonable, and some days he looks the best forward in the world, but he literally should have double the amount of goals and only so much of that can be down to bad luck.

[Peabee]

According to the exchanges then Liverpool have a 62.5% chance of winning the game, 20% chance of draw and a 17.5% chance of a Fulham win. A Liverpool win is overwhelmingly the most likely outcome of the possible outcomes.

That's just based on where the money is being laid/backed, not probability but bettors predictions.

[Nick110581]

Just focus on beating Fulham.

Imagine if Wolves take points off Arsenal too?

[Eeyore]

Don’t be so hard on yourself, you’ve got a lot to offer.

 

[Eeyore]

That's just based on where the money is being laid/backed, not probability but bettors predictions.

It's far more nuanced than that.

On the exchanges, people actually have to offer you that price. The margins are that wafer thin that it isn't like a traditional bookmaker that has a significant margin baked in to their prices. For instance currently you can back Liverpool at 1.59 and the lay is 1.6. Take into account 2-5% commission on Betfair and that means you cant just rely on the margins.

Here is an example the probabilities on the exchange over the last 7 days for the Fulham game.



The price is influenced far more by actual events than the weight of money. In real terms the price has altered very little over a week. Football is completely different to say horse racing. In horse racing for instance people back horses based on price movements. People assume that if a horse comes in significantly then they think it is because someone knows something or there is a betting coup. So they lump on and the price shortens even further. Add in the fact that you are talking about relatively small amounts of money over a lot of horses then weight of money does have a massive effect.

That doesn't really happen in Football. You don't back a team because you think someone knows something or that there is an attempt to fix the game. Weight of money is pretty negligible

[Jookie]

Need to bin the energy drink cup and FA cup next year if this is how it leaves at end of season

If it’s Amorim as manager then I’d expect he’ll take the domestic cups seriously. It’s what he’s done in Portugal.

The flip is that style of play is likely to be less intense. The number of games we’ve played is a factor but so is our style of play. In terms of how demanding it is but also how it likely increase the chance of injury (high contact for all outfield players, physically demanding).

This style of play is hugely successful in putting us in positions to challenge for trophies. Other styles of play with the same squad may not get us close to this level. But it does seem to leave us knackered at parts of the season. 2016/17 we ran out of steam, arguably 21/22 we did and this season too. One of the keys in the 18-20 period was having a team of physical machines throughout the team. The midfield in particular.

It’s an exciting brand of football that has been brilliant to watch in the last 8-9 years. But it’s not without its flaws given the almost unparalleled standards that City have set in this period.

The big Q is whether a new manager with a less demanding style can put us in positions to challenge but still have more energy in the tank come Easter onwards. It’ll be a lot more boring to watch but in theory has the potential to overcome some of the challenges we had at times.

[Clint Eastwood]

It's all just injuries for me. We lost Salah, Trent, Jota, Jones, Szoboszlai to pretty significant injuries just as they were each in good form, and they've come back too late and too slowly. In particular, I think without Trent and Salah in poor form, we've lost the majority of our creativity. The injuries to Alisson and Matip were far from ideal, but at least you can say they were replaced sufficiently by Kelleher and Quansah respectively.

It's a stark contrast to Arsenal who have cruised through the season relatively unscathed (aside from Timber). An injury list even remotely similar to ours would have killed them ages ago.

It has to be said though, I'm not convinced we can put it all down to luck. Wee have an injury crisis half way through the season almost every year, and we're signing players who have a spotless injury history just to see them sidelined for months once they get here.

[jillcwhomever]

The odd thing about this is that Klopp’s set such high standards that this dip in form is taken so badly by the fan base. We operate at such a high level that there’s apparently no tolerance for anything other than fillet steak. Kind of odd how Klopp’s being judged against such cripplingly high expectations.

Absolutely agree Fitzy, it's insane.

[Eeyore]

It's all just injuries for me. We lost Salah, Trent, Jota, Jones, Szoboszlai to pretty significant injuries just as they were each in good form, and they've come back too late and too slowly. In particular, I think without Trent and Salah in poor form, we've lost the majority of our creativity. The injuries to Alisson and Matip were far from ideal, but at least you can say they were replaced sufficiently by Kelleher and Quansah respectively.

It's a stark contrast to Arsenal who have cruised through the season relatively unscathed (aside from Timber). An injury list even remotely similar to ours would have killed them ages ago.

It has to be said though, I'm not convinced we can put it all down to luck. Wee have an injury crisis half way through the season almost every year, and we're signing players who have a spotless injury history just to see them sidelined for months once they get here.

It's not just that. Look at Thiago and Bajcetic who have basically missed a full season. In their absence both Macca and Endo have been massively overplayed.

[kloppismydad]

There's no other option now than to vociferously back this brilliant team and manager.

Last 6 matches with Jurgen at the helm. Let's fucking make some noise and push for a miracle.

If any club can pull it off, it's us.

[keeby]

As disappointing as the last few results have been, (i've been guilty of a good moan myself post match win over Atalanta, who were excellent) with many of the old hands alluding to the highs we are so use to, its situations like this that reminds me of how lucky we have been to see such riches...  So i'm going to be positive for tomorrows game and just enjoy where we are, as a line in the James song goes, "if i hadn't seen such riches i could live with being poor"

Up the Mighty Redmen lets fucking get at fulham tomorrow, then lets see what the remaining games hold.

[Macc77]

There's no other option now than to vociferously back this brilliant team and manager.

Amidst all the chat and reflections on the last week or two, this is the reality IMO. No point being anything other than positive. Things can change, momentum can shift, things can click, football is like that sometimes. We don't have to be brilliant to win the next 6, we just have to have moments in each of them, and take advantage of them.