Topic: When will it be enough ?

[Snail]

There is one country that none have you have even mentioned and is probably the one that causes the biggest mayhem between the Palestinians and the Israelis and that is Iran. So, what is the world supposed to do about Iran? Even if you managed to remove Netanyahu and put in someone else and persuade the fanatical part of Hamas to come to the table, you will still get Iran sneakily creating havoc elsewhere, and enticing other anti Israeli groups into the conflict. This is probably why the west has got itself into this mess, as they know whatever they do, it will not stop Iran from meddling and then causing future mayhem, between Israel and Palestine. It's why I just don't know what the world can do anymore. It's horrible as innocents are suffering but until the issue of Iran is solved I am not even sure where the Middle East goes politically.

Okay, but it’s not Iran who are currently blowing ambulances and 6 year old kids to pieces.

[RedGuy]

Even most peace-wanting Israelis have lost their empathy for Gazans after October 7. There won't be peace for the Palestinians until there is security for Israel (and Netanyahu is no longer in power, which will hopefully happen soon).

The Palestinians have proven exactly why they don't have a proper state yet in October. Israel just won't allow a radical muslim state to form basically inside their own borders. I don't think you people actually realize what Islam in the middle east is like.

Hamas needs to put down their arms and release the hostages, it's the only way to stop the current fighting. However, they are an Islamist cult which prefers death to life, in their own words. Belief in fairy tales can be a powerful thing.

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

We're talking about ethnic cleansing here. Israel are forcing the Palestinians towards and over the border into Egypt. It's obvious at this point. Where else do over a million people go with Israel having closed the roads, bombed the rest of Gaza into oblivion?

You can go on about Israel's security all you like. This is horrific, how can anyone support what they are doing to children, to women, to innocent people? Bombing ambulances, young children screaming for help - bombed to death instead of being given that help. In their thousands, in their thousands and thousands. It's an atrocity.

[Hazell]

We're talking about ethnic cleansing here. Israel are forcing the Palestinians towards and over the border into Egypt. It's obvious at this point. Where else do over a million people go with Israel having closed the roads, bombed the rest of Gaza into oblivion?

You can go on about Israel's security all you like. This is horrific, how can anyone support what they are doing to children, to women, to innocent people? Bombing ambulances, young children screaming for help - bombed to death instead of being given that help. In their thousands, in their thousands and thousands. It's an atrocity.

Yeah, it's absolutely horrific what Netanyahu and his government are doing.

[jambutty]

Hamas needs to do what the IRA did and divest themselves from violence, begin mutual recognition of each other's rights, then get on with their non military programs.

[RedDeadRejection]

My heart breaks for them. No person more thrilled that October 7th attack happened than Netanyahu himself. Gave him the excuse.

[Red-Soldier]

Even most peace-wanting Israelis have lost their empathy for Gazans after October 7. There won't be peace for the Palestinians until there is security for Israel (and Netanyahu is no longer in power, which will hopefully happen soon).

The Palestinians have proven exactly why they don't have a proper state yet in October. Israel just won't allow a radical muslim state to form basically inside their own borders. I don't think you people actually realize what Islam in the middle east is like.

Hamas needs to put down their arms and release the hostages, it's the only way to stop the current fighting. However, they are an Islamist cult which prefers death to life, in their own words. Belief in fairy tales can be a powerful thing.

You're post illustrates what we all know, in that Israel, currently, cannot police itself.  It is hellbent on bloodthirsty revenge and ethnic cleansing.

This is why we need a strong third-party (the US), to tell them in no uncertain terms, that what they are doing is wrong, and will not be tolerated.

However, that is not happening, thus, we see (and read) about all the terrible things happening, each day.

[Red-Soldier]

We're talking about ethnic cleansing here. Israel are forcing the Palestinians towards and over the border into Egypt. It's obvious at this point. Where else do over a million people go with Israel having closed the roads, bombed the rest of Gaza into oblivion?

You can go on about Israel's security all you like. This is horrific, how can anyone support what they are doing to children, to women, to innocent people? Bombing ambulances, young children screaming for help - bombed to death instead of being given that help. In their thousands, in their thousands and thousands. It's an atrocity.

Agree.  It's shocking what is happening!

[TSC]

You're post illustrates what we all know, in that Israel, currently, cannot police itself.  It is hellbent on bloodthirsty revenge and ethnic cleansing.

This is why we need a strong third-party (the US), to tell them in no uncertain terms, that what they are doing is wrong, and will not be tolerated.

However, that is not happening, thus, we see (and read) about all the terrible things happening, each day.

Netanyahu ignores the US anyway

https://www.thedailybeast.com/netanyahu-ignores-biden-doubles-down-on-opposition-to-two-state-solution

[Red-Soldier]

Netanyahu ignores the US anyway

https://www.thedailybeast.com/netanyahu-ignores-biden-doubles-down-on-opposition-to-two-state-solution

If the will was there, the US could put a fair amount of leverage on him, I would guess.  He is a terrible man (and leader), though.

[jillcwhomever]

If the will was there, the US could put a fair amount of leverage on him, I would guess.  He is a terrible man (and leader), though.

It should be the Israeli's themselves that do that. He is losing support both among his allies and the Israeli people who are unhappy on his leadership both before and during this conflict. The best solution for everyone would be a Middle East backed ceasefire with the support of the United Nations. The UN should be looking to do more as well.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

It should be the Israeli's themselves that do that. He is losing support both among his allies and the Israeli people who are unhappy on his leadership both before and during this conflict. The best solution for everyone would be a Middle East backed ceasefire with the support of the United Nations. The UN should be looking to do more as well.

Nobody & I do mean nobody trusts the Israelis Netanyahu to stick to a ceasefire, they gave the ambulance workers the green light to go and rescue Hibi & then once they arrived, murdered them and finished off the 6yr old child, a child that they KNEW was in the vehicle.

There's also the fact that Netanyahu has refused to even contemplate one.

Pressure needs putting onto the Israelis from all sides, because the only thing that matters at this moment in time is that they're attempting to cleanse over 1m people & do not care how many innocent humans they murder in the process.

[jillcwhomever]

Nobody & I do mean nobody trusts the Israelis Netanyahu to stick to a ceasefire, they gave the ambulance workers the green light to go and rescue Hibi & then once they arrived, murdered them and finished off the 6yr old child, a child that they KNEW was in the vehicle.

There's also the fact that Netanyahu has refused to even contemplate one.

Pressure needs putting onto the Israelis from all sides, because the only thing that matters at this moment in time is that they're attempting to cleanse over 1m people & do not care how many innocent humans they murder in the process.

You obviously missed the bit were I said they need to replace him.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

You obviously missed the bit were I said they need to replace him.

I didn't jill, was just saying what I feel.

[jillcwhomever]

I didn't jill, was just saying what I feel.

He is ignoring everyone which is why someone has to act and forcibly replace him, he's not going to stand aside as you and I both know.

[Too early for flapjacks?]

Netanyahu is pure evil. Always has been. Even before he became prime minister. The Israelis who have voted him in to power 6 times are an absolute disgrace.

[Wool]

“Never again” until it happens again and no one does anything to stop it. History will not be kind to those enacting this genocide and to those enabling it.

[jambutty]

 


I heard they also sank the Titanic.

Or was that an iceberg?

[classycarra]

When the killing eventually stops, and the rubble is removed, the true horrors are revealed and theres only silence left. I hope the thirst for blood is quenched in the human rights, freedom, and peace loving west.

Are you genuinely saying you hope more civilians are killed in the UK (and elsewhere)?

[Sangria]

When the killing eventually stops, and the rubble is removed, the true horrors are revealed and theres only silence left. I hope the thirst for blood is quenched in the human rights, freedom, and peace loving west.

Do you think that the west, if it really does purport to support human rights, freedom, and peace, should act to remove a cruel, genocidal regime?

[classycarra]

Okay, but it’s not Iran who are currently blowing ambulances and 6 year old kids to pieces.

I'm sorry, what? Had to double take reading this shocking comment. Have you had your head in the sand for the last ten plus years?!

Literally just in the last month of years-long campaign deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure: https://reliefweb.int/report/syrian-arab-republic/most-notable-human-rights-violations-syria-january-2024-enar

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

Are you genuinely saying you hope more civilians are killed in the UK (and elsewhere)?

Eh, where does he say that in what you quoted?

[Mumm-Ra]

In the interest of finding some common ground, here are a few statements.

1) Israel has a right to exist as a country in that region (agreeing to this doesn’t mean you agree with how the borders are drawn up). Palestine also has a right to exist as a country.

2) Israel is surrounded by very real threats to its safety. The threats are not fake or overblown, 10/7 proved that

3) There can never be peace with an organization like Hamas. Hamas is a death cult that can give Gazans no positive future, and needs to be eradicated.

4) Both sides have very aggressive ‘wings’ that are bloodthirsty, want war and the destruction of the other side. These wings don’t speak for the entire population of their respective side

I could go on with a few more but I’ll just leave it there. Do people agree with those statements? I get there’s a lot of nuance - for instance I’ve learned that the Israeli government has played a big role in Hamas being the main party of Gaza. That it was in Netanyahu’s interest for Palestinians to be viewed as volatile and unreasonable, impossible to find peace with. And so on, there’s nuance all over the place. But if we can agree on some basic tenets then there could be some decent conversation where people actually learn things from the other side. Otherwise it’s just pointless

[classycarra]

Eh, where does he say that in what you quoted?

I'm hoping it doesn't, it could mean one of two things (maybe more) by my reckoning.

I'm hopeful he's not suggesting retaliatory letting of blood in the west (to quench the thirst) - and your interpretation adds to that hope

[Wool]

Are you genuinely saying you hope more civilians are killed in the UK (and elsewhere)?

How on earth did you get that from his post? Incredible interpretation of that post. Honestly says more about you than anything else.

[classycarra]

How on earth did you get that from his post? Incredible interpretation of that post.

Thank you?

Would you prefer I didn't ask him to clarify, and assumed the worst?

Honestly says more about you than anything else.

just caught your edit. don't know what you think you've interpreted (I recomend asking clarifying questions rather than jumping to conclusions).

But it sounds like you've had better luck than me online, where I've sadly seen a lot of views like the one I was wary of shared. as someone who wants peace, I find anyone with a desire to blood let has incompatible values with me and isn't an ally

[Sangria]

In the interest of finding some common ground, here are a few statements.

1) Israel has a right to exist as a country in that region (agreeing to this doesn’t mean you agree with how the borders are drawn up). Palestine also has a right to exist as a country.

2) Israel is surrounded by very real threats to its safety. The threats are not fake or overblown, 10/7 proved that

3) There can never be peace with an organization like Hamas. Hamas is a death cult that can give Gazans no positive future, and needs to be eradicated.

4) Both sides have very aggressive ‘wings’ that are bloodthirsty, want war and the destruction of the other side. These wings don’t speak for the entire population of their respective side

I could go on with a few more but I’ll just leave it there. Do people agree with those statements? I get there’s a lot of nuance - for instance I’ve learned that the Israeli government has played a big role in Hamas being the main party of Gaza. That it was in Netanyahu’s interest for Palestinians to be viewed as volatile and unreasonable, impossible to find peace with. And so on, there’s nuance all over the place. But if we can agree on some basic tenets then there could be some decent conversation where people actually learn things from the other side. Otherwise it’s just pointless

What I don't get is how the pro-Palestinian/anti-Israeli side piles on the emotive rhetoric about blood, genocide, innocents dying, etc. and how Israel needs a regime change, yet those same people hate on Blair for enacting regime change on someone with an even worse record. If they really do hate how a foreign regime kills innocents as freely as Israel does, and want a change of regime, then surely they must support someone who did actually change a regime that was even worse? Or does that rhetoric only apply to some but not others?

Personally, I think we have no business involving ourselves in middle eastern disputes. Thought the same in 2003 too.

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

I'm hoping it doesn't, it could mean one of two things (maybe more) by my reckoning.

I'm hopeful he's not suggesting retaliatory letting of blood in the west (to quench the thirst) - and your interpretation adds to that hope

No, I don't think he means that at all. I think he is saying, rather, that when Gaza is reduced to rubble and silence by the Israeli assault, when the Gazans are all either dead or driven from their lands, perhaps that horrible scene will finally be enough blood-letting for the hypocritical west (as he frames it).

I'd reply that there are many many millions in the west that disagree in the strongest terms possible with Israel's actions in Gaza. Our leaders, as so often, do not represent the diversity of opinion in the public they serve.

[classycarra]

No, I don't think he means that at all. I think he is saying, rather, that when Gaza is reduced to rubble and silence by the Israeli assault, when the Gazans are all either dead or driven from their lands, perhaps that horrible scene will finally be enough blood-letting for the hypocritical west (as he frames it).

that's increasingly my interpretation too. i'm glad i didn't make an assumption based on my first more concerning interpretation

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

In the interest of finding some common ground, here are a few statements.

1) Israel has a right to exist as a country in that region (agreeing to this doesn’t mean you agree with how the borders are drawn up). Palestine also has a right to exist as a country.

2) Israel is surrounded by very real threats to its safety. The threats are not fake or overblown, 10/7 proved that

3) There can never be peace with an organization like Hamas. Hamas is a death cult that can give Gazans no positive future, and needs to be eradicated.

4) Both sides have very aggressive ‘wings’ that are bloodthirsty, want war and the destruction of the other side. These wings don’t speak for the entire population of their respective side

Of course, to all of those. But Hamas won't be eradicated by military action (unless Israel are allowed to kill every single man, woman and child in Palestine). Hamas would have been weakened a long time ago if there had been any movement at all towards a Palestinian state. Instead, successive Israeli governments continued to facilitate the theft of Palestinian land by ultra-nationalist settlers, undermined the more moderate voices within Fatah, and imposed its version of apartheid on Palestinians.

Give people something to live for, a promise of a better future, and Hamas loses much of its power. Until then, it will remain as a desperate, hate-filled movement recruiting from a population with little left to lose.

[TipTopKop]

Give people something to live for, a promise of a better future, and Hamas loses much of its power. Until then, it will remain as a desperate, hate-filled movement recruiting from a population with little left to lose.

Yep.

[Sangria]

No, I don't think he means that at all. I think he is saying, rather, that when Gaza is reduced to rubble and silence by the Israeli assault, when the Gazans are all either dead or driven from their lands, perhaps that horrible scene will finally be enough blood-letting for the hypocritical west (as he frames it).

I'd reply that there are many many millions in the west that disagree in the strongest terms possible with Israel's actions in Gaza. Our leaders, as so often, do not represent the diversity of opinion in the public they serve.

The thing is, if people really are upset by all the bloodletting, and want the regime pushing all this to go, do they support the actions of the Labour government who did exactly this in 2003 to a far worse regime? And it's not whataboutery, as that section of the left that's most vocal about Israel's bloodletting and wanting Netanyahu to go are also the most vocal about Blair doing exactly that to Saddam, using the same emotive rhetoric about Israel that's far more accurately used to describe Saddam.

And if they have changed over the years, and opposed Blair in 2003 but have changed since then for this rhetoric to chime so much more re: Israel, does this mean that they've thought about what happened in Iraq, and changed their views about that too? And if they weren't old enough to remember 2003, does this mean that they support what Blair did in Iraq, and wish that the same would happen with Israel?

I note that Red-Soldier has used the bad faith argument accusation, and wonder if they apply the same to me. Personally, I'd only accuse someone of using bad faith arguments if they're not prepared to ask of themselves the same question that they ask of others, or not being prepared to answer questions that they ask of others.

[The North Bank]

Are you genuinely saying you hope more civilians are killed in the UK (and elsewhere)?

That take is disturbing.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Here come the squirrels. 

[Sangria]

Here come the squirrels. 

Not really. The poster I responded to said that they were done with Labour because of Gaza, and used specific terms to describe how the west sees itself in contrast with what Israel is doing. I've said that I see bad faith as people not being prepared to ask of themselves what they ask of others. So I'm asking them to apply that logic.

And BTW, Galloway is currently running a campaign on that argument.

[Red-Soldier]

Here come the squirrels. 

As night, follows day.

[Mumm-Ra]

Of course, to all of those. But Hamas won't be eradicated by military action (unless Israel are allowed to kill every single man, woman and child in Palestine). Hamas would have been weakened a long time ago if there had been any movement at all towards a Palestinian state. Instead, successive Israeli governments continued to facilitate the theft of Palestinian land by ultra-nationalist settlers, undermined the more moderate voices within Fatah, and imposed its version of apartheid on Palestinians.

Give people something to live for, a promise of a better future, and Hamas loses much of its power. Until then, it will remain as a desperate, hate-filled movement recruiting from a population with little left to lose.

Firstly, thanks for acknowledging the points. And a good, measured response.

Hamas can’t be eradicated militarily - maybe so. But Israel has the right to respond militarily to an attack on the scale of 10/7 surely? What country would not?

For your second paragraph, I agree with this. But who are you suggesting provides this alternative outlook for Palestinians? Is that up to Israel? Gaza has been given billions in aid, it could be a decent place to live, but Hamas (who were voted in) spent it on rockets and tunnels.

Sidenote, not directed at you but I feel like there’s some dissonance where pro Palestine people view Hamas as this fringe group, just a handful of angry dudes that the population want nothing to do with. Like a mob of hooligans in a football crowd.

[classycarra]

That take is disturbing.

pleased to hear

edit: i failed to apologise - sorry!

Firstly, thanks for acknowledging the points. And a good, measured response.

don't have time for a fuller post but I read yours and agreed with all four well-considered points as a baseline too

[Sangria]

Accusing others of bad faith, yet resorting to one liners and not being willing to ask of themselves the same questions that they ask of others.

[I've been a good boy]

Even most peace-wanting Israelis have lost their empathy for Gazans after October 7. There won't be peace for the Palestinians until there is security for Israel (and Netanyahu is no longer in power, which will hopefully happen soon).

The Palestinians have proven exactly why they don't have a proper state yet in October. Israel just won't allow a radical muslim state to form basically inside their own borders. I don't think you people actually realize what Islam in the middle east is like.

Hamas needs to put down their arms and release the hostages, it's the only way to stop the current fighting. However, they are an Islamist cult which prefers death to life, in their own words. Belief in fairy tales can be a powerful thing.

What's the weather like on Planet X? Do you even believe half the shit you say? Coming from a person who said the below, not sure why anyone anyone would take you seriously on here.

Maybe the fact that Israel is in the right 

Your precious little state is losing support by the day. Social media has exposed all your dirty crimes. But if spewing bullshit online is what helps you sleep at night then go ahead, sweet prince.