Author Topic: Match Preview: UCL Final Real Madrid v Liverpool [26 May 2018, KO 19:45 GMT]  (Read 293907 times)

Offline Dave D

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No, it hasn't cost us in the way it did in that game but we are obviously a much better team now.  There have been signs though against City in the league, Roma in the CL and going further back earlier in the season away to Sevilla or even at the start of the season against Watford.  My biggest concern is in-game management, negative football, anti football, time wasting call it what you like but we should be using this at critical times to help avoid fatigue in the 2nd half of games, but we don't.  For me our 2nd half performances have much more to do with the intensity of the game we play and less to do with fixture pile up or end of season fatigue.  After all both teams are at the end of their season and similarly fatigued.  How many games did we play to win in 05? 

Of course, we all hope that.  ;D

 

I think if anyone knew what they were talking about in relation to in-game management and how to implement it, they would be out there making big money and not talking shite on an internet forum. There are so many factors and variables involved that we wouldn't know where to start.
Real Madrid were 2-0 up the other night and they fucked it up. Man City, regarded as the best football club at the moment were 2-0 up at half time a few weeks ago and they fucked it up. It happens to all teams.
Football is changing and evolving, and it's being spearheaded by our manager. With the players we have, you have to play to their strengths, negative football isn't an option. Buying better players who are able to control the game, or buying better players to bring off the bench is an option.

Offline rocco

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Sadio Mane says: “Will we win? Why not!” ;)

Offline rocco

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Klopp content with preparations

Klopp: “It’s a very good moment for the club, for the boys.

“The way we finished the season and the time we’ve had to prepare for the final.

“We didn’t have to press everything into three sessions or rush things.

“From tomorrow on we have three more sessions.”
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 01:41:49 pm by rocco »

Offline rocco

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Klopp on Can

Klopp says 10 days ago he didn’t think Emre Can would be available but now they’ll assess where he’s at tomorrow.

As for the reports that he’s signed for Juventus for next season, he says “I really don’t know. It doesn’t matter right now.

“What matters is that he’s 100% here.”
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 01:43:11 pm by rocco »

Offline rocco

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Klopp on Real experience

Klopp: “It’s a fact that Real Madrid is more experienced. If only there was an experience market they could sell it and be more rich.

“It’s important to have experience in life, in football, but you can level it.

“We haven’t been together as long as them. As a group they are very strong, they’ve won it for the two previous years with the same team but this is football, we have a chance, let’s go there and try.”

Offline Barneylfc∗

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If Can scores a 94th minute winner on Saturday, I couldn't give a flying fuck if he joined Man Utd on Sunday.
Craig Burnley V West Ham - WEST HAM WIN - INCORRECT

Offline rocco

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Klopp hails Reds fans

Klopp says he loves how excited the fans have been.

“There have been a lot of things happened since I came in. The biggest is how much I liked the team.

“We’ve enjoyed getting to the final, the home crowd was really good. If you go on Wikipedia and Google and type in ‘European nights’ the answer should be Anfield and that’s cool.”

Offline rocco

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If Can scores a 94th minute winner on Saturday, I couldn't give a flying fuck if he joined Man Utd on Sunday.

That’s taking it a bit to far ;)

Everton will do

Offline harryc

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Amazing what the opportunity of playing in a CL final can do in terms of healing power.

Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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I love Jurgen Klopp!  How can you not? 
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Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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If Can scores a 94th minute winner on Saturday, I couldn't give a flying fuck if he joined Man Utd on Sunday.

That's how their recruitment process usually goes ---- "Disneyland" Flights to fuck all;  Its a small world after all!

Agreed Barney!  Although he is heading to his old lady, right?
THIS IS ANFIELD SIGN:
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We have everything we need - Jurgen Klopp

You need to get more wives mate, it fixes everything. Apart from then you have loads of wives, which is a nightmare.  -  Djozer

Offline Wool

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Amazing what the opportunity of playing in a CL final can do in terms of healing power.
If it wasn't for Can we most likely wouldn't have even qualified for the competition. It's shite that he's leaving, but there's been nothing to suggest that his injury wasn't genuine.

Offline thekitkatshuffler

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Watching Jurgen in that press conference, clearly as excited as a schoolboy and not trying to hide it, has got the butterflies going.

Saturday is going to be fucking immense.  :scarf
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Offline scouseman

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I love Jurgen Klopp!  How can you not? 

I just love listening to the man talk. So much positive vibes from him. Makes you want to do anything in your power to win. So proud to have him as our manager.   

Offline sms1986

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Amazing what the opportunity of playing in a CL final can do in terms of healing power.

He's been working on getting fit for weeks and he's not even guaranteed a place.

Offline deFacto please, you bastards

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His response to Dejan saying that he feels confident when he plays with Virgil, cracked me up ''Joel Matip will not be happy with that'' :D

Offline Dave D

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Can gives us another option. He also gives Real Madrid something to think about. Maybe he starts, maybe he doesn't, maybe he'll be on the bench, maybe we're fucking with them. Maybe they don't have a plan to stop him if he does play.


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He's def not starting, but good to have him on the bench.

Offline Kelvinlfc

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If it wasn't for Can we most likely wouldn't have even qualified for the competition. It's shite that he's leaving, but there's been nothing to suggest that his injury wasn't genuine.

What the fuck

Offline Wool

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What the fuck
We finished 1 point ahead of Arsenal last season. We struggled against Watford and barely created anything when Can scored that worldie which got us all 3 points. He was also pretty good in the games against Hoffenheim which got us past the qualifiers.

It's shit he's leaving, but that post read to me as if the poster was implying that his injury wasn't as bad as he made out and he's just rushing back now to get into the side since we're in the final and I think that's harsh. Maybe I read too much into it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Offline newterp

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What the fuck

probably referring to the overhead kick against watford last season.

Offline deFacto please, you bastards

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We finished 1 point ahead of Arsenal last season. We struggled against Watford and barely created anything when Can scored that worldie which got us all 3 points. He was also pretty good in the games against Hoffenheim which got us past the qualifiers.

It's shit he's leaving, but that post read to me as if the poster was implying that his injury wasn't as bad as he made out and he's just rushing back now to get into the side since we're in the final and I think that's harsh. Maybe I read too much into it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

and if we didn't beat Boro, that win against Watford wouldn't have mattered.

So you can't pin point it down to one player when it comes to 38 game season.

He played a part, as did the other players.




Offline Wool

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and if we didn't beat Boro, that win against Watford wouldn't have mattered.

So you can't pin point it down to one player when it comes to 38 game season.

He played a part, as did the other players.
Yeah that's entirely fair.

Offline stockdam

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and if we didn't beat Boro, that win against Watford wouldn't have mattered.

So you can't pin point it down to one player when it comes to 38 game season.

He played a part, as did the other players.





Agree.......you can't select one moment in a season to say that it gave us 4th place. Every goal and every tackle and every save was important.
#JFT97

Offline Linudden

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Sadio Mane says: “Will we win? Why not!” ;)

Funny guy Sadio lad ;)
Linudden.

Offline BabuYagu

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Great post mate. Added to the OP to help others find it too.

I'm actually avoiding reading much of this thread as if I start shitting it, I might struggle to finish my own preview project that I am still working on with JCB. :D It's been a happy consequence that by having to focus 24/7 on work, kid and this project that I barely have time to think about what is coming. The consequences. The scenes if we win. Does big Jurgen get the water cooler tipped over him in Kiev? Will the glasses survive the carnage?

Agh, stop, don't think about it. Focus. Okay. I'm good! As you were everyone.
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Offline BabuYagu

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Except that's not really true. 

Klopp rested his starting team for that away game against WBA, so they had 7 days to recover and prepare for the final.  An extra week would have made little difference from a tiredness point of view at this point in the season so that's a non factor.  You can't really say it was lack of preparation either as we bossed the 1st half about as much as they bossed the 2nd.

We just weren't good enough, accept it. 

There's been plenty of signs in games that we are still vulnerable to this happening to us in 2nd halves, particularly late on.
I agree. Our midfield got pinned down and couldn't sort it out. But... he is also right.

In terms of preparation, regardless of who started the game, they would only be preparing for the Sevilla game once the WBA was done. And then the first session is likely to be a rest / recovery session after the last game. Then the session before Sevilla you want a light session which will mostly be tactical stuff and focus on set pieces etc. So when you factor in travel, they probably had almost no training and prep for the actual game.

And then you have the small matter of accumulated fatigue. This is probably the thing Klopp is trying to reset with the break in Spain - it's not warm weather training, it's just R&R. Here is a good quote on it from a body building article, but the same rules apply to performance in all sports.

Quote
What’s Wrong with Cumulative Fatigue?

Cumulative fatigue interferes with training in 3 distinct ways. First of all, it lowers the athlete’s ability to perform maximally, both in force production and in technique execution. Cumulative fatigue makes the athlete less able to display good technique, less powerful, and weaker, probably in that order of onset. This is a bad deal for two reasons. Firstly, having crappy technique can lead to poor technical practice, and essentially makes the athlete learn how to do important movements wrong, as well as increasing the chance of them getting hurt. The last part is especially true if your technique breaks down under a heavy squat or with a heavy deadlift! Secondly, because fatigue weakens you, it does not allow you to present a very strong stimulus in training. If you’re training for strength, you had better be able to lift heavy, and if you are impaired due to fatigue, then you simply cannot present as much of an overload as needed to stimulate the best gains.

The second reason fatigue interferes with training is by its direct effects on hormonal and intracellular adaptive pathways. As fatigue levels rise, so does the catabolic hormone of cortisol. With its combination of lowering testosterone, fatigue-mediated cortisol rise literally interferes with growth and recovery. Additionally, rising fatigue levels tend to bias cellular signaling in favor of catabolic pathways (AMPk for example) and away from anabolic pathways (mTOR for example). This means that you might even be able to push through being tired (our first problem with cumulative fatigue), only to realize that most of your hard work did not turn on adaptive pathways nearly as much as usual, and your hard work was partially for naught.

Lastly, by summing up microtears and expanding their size over the weeks and months of hard training, cumulative fatigue increases the risk that such tears will lead to injuries. Now, I’m not gonna bullshit you into the idea that if you don’t deload every 3 weeks, your pec and quad are going to fly off the bone at the same time during a bench press. Fatigue-mediated injuries usually take much longer than several weeks of hard training to become likely, but what is almost certainly true is that many months of hard training without a chance for microtears to heal completely is going to increase injury risk.

So that we have a chance to completely 'deload' will give us the best chance to go full throttle on Saturday, maintain it for as long as possible and not have it negatively impact on other aspects of our game, as we saw towards the end of the Roma games in particular. This two weeks is perfect for us and will be absolutely hell for Madrid.
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Offline MinnyRed

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Mountains of good stuff in here, keeping me occupied through this mind numbing wait. Also, whoever thought up the advent thread should be knighted.

Question re training. When does the group leave for Kyiv? Also, isn’t the game time 2145 local time? Was expecting to see training pics in the dark given Klopps preference for training at game time to get the players acclimated (or do I have that wrong?)? Sorry if I missed.

Offline sinnermichael

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Despite recent form, I still don't see Bale starting for Real Madrid on Saturday. Be a Casmeiro, Modric, Kroos and Isco diamond with Benzema and Ronaldo upfront.

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Mountains of good stuff in here, keeping me occupied through this mind numbing wait. Also, whoever thought up the advent thread should be knighted.

Question re training. When does the group leave for Kyiv? Also, isn’t the game time 2145 local time? Was expecting to see training pics in the dark given Klopps preference for training at game time to get the players acclimated (or do I have that wrong?)? Sorry if I missed.

This isn't the only training session that they will have leading up to the game. yes he has had them trained at night to have them acclimated.

Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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I agree. Our midfield got pinned down and couldn't sort it out. But... he is also right.

In terms of preparation, regardless of who started the game, they would only be preparing for the Sevilla game once the WBA was done. And then the first session is likely to be a rest / recovery session after the last game. Then the session before Sevilla you want a light session which will mostly be tactical stuff and focus on set pieces etc. So when you factor in travel, they probably had almost no training and prep for the actual game.

And then you have the small matter of accumulated fatigue. This is probably the thing Klopp is trying to reset with the break in Spain - it's not warm weather training, it's just R&R. Here is a good quote on it from a body building article, but the same rules apply to performance in all sports.

So that we have a chance to completely 'deload' will give us the best chance to go full throttle on Saturday, maintain it for as long as possible and not have it negatively impact on other aspects of our game, as we saw towards the end of the Roma games in particular. This two weeks is perfect for us and will be absolutely hell for Madrid.

There is also another process (emotional) that affects all systems (families, communities, relationships) --- its called isomorphism.

Isomorphism is a type of parallel process, often running unconsciously, where energy is taken by the system and leaks into others.  It can be positive energy or neutral or negative.   The issue with collective fatigue is how the load is shared and expressed.

The best example I can give describing an isomorphic process is this:

Family example - follow how energy flows here
1.  Head of family gets warning at work that performance is lagging
2.  Head of family comes homes and gets in argument with spouse (1st leak)
3.  Spouse admonishes children for bothering parents during a discussion (2nd leak)
4.  Children leave the room and find the family dog, admonishing the dog (3rd leak)
5.  Dog goes outside and tries to barks at the mailman

The energy can be reversed or neutralized at any level by the Head of Family, Spouse, Children, Pet or Mailman...

The problem of negative energy is that it is contagious, largely unconscious when externalizing on another and a common pathway to express frustration.  Also, it must be recognized for what it is --- unresolved emotional residue leaking into a new system.

How this relates to Liverpool football club, Jurgen Klopp and collective group efforts in team sports is much less likely to be a problem.
Jurgen will use humor, crediting, relaxed responses to reactive stimuli and be ready to make sure every level of his team system actively leaks positivity!!!!

But this is an interesting topic --- Accumulated fatigue as it applies to a family/team system.  Players are open to one another, and their energies for the team to have success, but how one handles these kinds of systems when fatigue, and mental expenditures go past the red line is so important.

As a former family scientist, this is another reason why I am so grateful to have Kloppo as our gaffer!!!



« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 03:13:37 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
THIS IS ANFIELD SIGN:
It’s there to remind our lads who they’re playing for and to remind the opposition who they’re playing against! - Bill Shankly

We have everything we need - Jurgen Klopp

You need to get more wives mate, it fixes everything. Apart from then you have loads of wives, which is a nightmare.  -  Djozer

Offline paulrazor

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I agree. Our midfield got pinned down and couldn't sort it out. But... he is also right.

In terms of preparation, regardless of who started the game, they would only be preparing for the Sevilla game once the WBA was done. And then the first session is likely to be a rest / recovery session after the last game. Then the session before Sevilla you want a light session which will mostly be tactical stuff and focus on set pieces etc. So when you factor in travel, they probably had almost no training and prep for the actual game.

And then you have the small matter of accumulated fatigue. This is probably the thing Klopp is trying to reset with the break in Spain - it's not warm weather training, it's just R&R. Here is a good quote on it from a body building article, but the same rules apply to performance in all sports.

So that we have a chance to completely 'deload' will give us the best chance to go full throttle on Saturday, maintain it for as long as possible and not have it negatively impact on other aspects of our game, as we saw towards the end of the Roma games in particular. This two weeks is perfect for us and will be absolutely hell for Madrid.
second half was a very tired display against Sevilla

our 63rd game that season. think 37 were after christmas, could have been out of sight with a proper ref in the first half though. some things never change.

injury wise we had a few doubts going into that, dont think henderson was 100%, Origi was in great form until he got injured in april that year and this was his first game back
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Offline BabuYagu

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Despite recent form, I still don't see Bale starting for Real Madrid on Saturday. Be a Casmeiro, Modric, Kroos and Isco diamond with Benzema and Ronaldo upfront.

I agree. If you look at Madrid's results by date, it is interesting how many times this season they have lost a game, changed formation and then introduced a new, sometimes not previously used, formation a week or two later. From a coaching point of view, that isn't a good sign. It could indicate Zidane gets rattled by defeats and wants to show that he is changing things to make sure it doesn't happen again. I always remember the criticism Rodgers would get for appearing to not really have much faith in his system. Zidane looks similar in the sense that it just takes a defeat and he will be off trying a flat 4-4-2 or a 4-2-4 or 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-1-2 diamond or a 4-3-3.

The actual formation should have little impact as the system stays constant and the roles just move slightly. But psychologically, it can play it's part with players to see the formation constantly changing like that. Zidane is still a young coach who has had a relatively easy ride managing one of the best sides in the league which makes defeats a rarity. When they come though - does he question himself, his choices? To what extent? Does he have belief in his system? Do the players worry about his experience and tactical knowledge when they are losing what looks to be a LOT more games than you typically expect with Madrid? Do they worry about the fact they just scraped through against Juve & Bayern despite being in charge of the tie. Do they trust him?
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Offline BabuYagu

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There is also another process (emotional) that affects all systems (families, communities, relationships) --- its called isomorphism.

Isomorphism is a type of parallel process, often running unconsciously, where energy is taken by the system and leaks into others.  It can be positive energy or neutral or negative.   The issue with collective fatigue is how the load is shared and expressed.

The best example I can give describing an isomorphic process is this:

Family example - follow how energy flows here
1.  Head of family gets warning at work that performance is lagging
2.  Head of family comes homes and gets in argument with spouse (1st leak)
3.  Spouse admonishes children for bothering parents during a discussion (2nd leak)
4.  Children leave the room and find the family dog, admonishing the dog (3rd leak)
5.  Dog goes outside and tries to barks at the mailman

The energy can be reversed or neutralized at any level by the Head of Family, Spouse, Children, Pet or Mailman...

The problem of negative energy is that it is contagious, largely unconscious when externalizing on another and a common pathway to express frustration.  Also, it must be recognized for what it is --- unresolved emotional residue leaking into a new system.

How this relates to Liverpool football club, Jurgen Klopp and collective group efforts in team sports is much less likely to be a problem.
Jurgen will use humor, crediting, relaxed responses to reactive stimuli and be ready to make sure every level of his team system actively leaks positivity!!!!

But this is an interesting topic --- Accumulated fatigue as it applies to a family/team system.  Players are open to one another, and their energies for the team to have success, but how one handles these kinds of systems when fatigue, and mental expenditures go past the red line is so important.

As a former family scientist, this is another reason why I am so grateful to have Kloppo as our gaffer!!!
Interesting stuff mate. I knew of this, just not the term. I learned about it in management training. It was called the ***** cascade. Can't remember the first word. I told her in Belfast we simply said "shit always rolls downhill" but she didn't respond. Probably didn't understand the accent :D

I actually think it annoyed her that a working class group had identified the same occurrence and had a term that worked both as a metaphor and also perfectly described the situation to be easily understood by anybody and yet she was dedicating 30 minutes explaining this to a bunch of university grads (+ me) and making it sound as complicated as possible when it was really simple.

And yes, I agree. Klopp is great with the psychology side of things and keeping his players in the right frame of mind to maximise their thought processes and stresses on the pitch. "the defeat is my responsibility" "Karius wasn't ready, that was my fault, not his".

Mourinho, for all his praise in terms of psychology, must be an absolute nightmare for exactly this reason. The shit never stops with him, he's always looking for hills to set it in motion. The fucking c*nt.
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Just been looking at Accuweather and they Kyiv being 21 degrees and sunny all day.

Should be around the 15-16 degrees around kick off.
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Offline JackWard33

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Despite recent form, I still don't see Bale starting for Real Madrid on Saturday. Be a Casmeiro, Modric, Kroos and Isco diamond with Benzema and Ronaldo upfront.

Hope he doesn’t start but even though it’s been normalized this season it’s still a huge call to leave him out - he’s still on of the most productive attackers in the world. Don’t want to see him coming off the bench either but the fewer minutes he plays in the final the better it is for us

Offline scouseman

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How do this people get to have jobs as reporters is beyond me

reporter to Sadio & Dejan "what would you rather win the CL or the world cup"

Players both

how can you as such a stupid question in a press conference for the final of the CL. Makes no sense. 

Offline sms1986

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Just been looking at Accuweather and they Kyiv being 21 degrees and sunny all day.

Should be around the 15-16 degrees around kick off.

Probably a good thing that they've been in Spain then, although it's not too bad here!

Offline emitime

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Also, isn’t the game time 2145 local time?

Yes (same as Istanbul, where technically we ended up winning the cup on the 26th).

And while we're on that subject, the thread title is wrong, kick off is 19:45 BST, not GMT.

Offline paulrazor

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How do this people get to have jobs as reporters is beyond me

reporter to Sadio & Dejan "what would you rather win the CL or the world cup"

Players both

how can you as such a stupid question in a press conference for the final of the CL. Makes no sense. 
silly

my favorite of all time is a reporter asking gordon strachan was he the right man for the job when he took over southampton.

dead pan, quick as a light he goes "NO"
yer ma should have called you Paolo Zico Gerry Socrates HELLRAZOR