Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!

[Knight]

What has Neville got to do with this? Who has mentioned Neville? The strawmaning is silly. If Taylor is bias then why would he toe the line on the big calls?

[Fitzy.]

On the first half Joelinton non-yellow.

IFAB have clarified the rule which a little bit complicated but Taylor was correct rather than corrupt.

https://x.com/mish_leady/status/1741946784120029455?s=46&t=XPvTQoAZugppw4anOfg19Q

[naYoRHa2b]

Taylor is clearly bias and always has been.

The fact some on here are following rat boys comments is truly pathetic.

Both pens have clear contact and both fall the next time that leg hits the ground. VAR or the ref aren’t doing us any favours  they are just toeing the line.

Yet no yellows for Joelinton first half are not reffing by the book and clearly against what should be done. That’s the difference it’s not that hard to grasp for fucks sake. Well unless people are swallowing agendas from rat boy that is.

If VAR are toeing the line then why does Taylor who is clearly biased award both pens in the first place? They aren't clear enough where a corrupt referee couldn't decide to wave them away. Surely he just ignores them in the same way he ignores giving Joelinton a yellow? We know VAR aren't supposed to over rule clear and obvious and they wouldn't over rule Taylor not giving either of them and we know that as they've not over ruled more obvious things in the past.

[Knight]

Basically if calls go against us which we don’t understand - referees are corrupt/ bias/ cheating.

If calls go against which we disagree with or are wrong - refs are corrupt/ bias/ cheating.

If calls go for us which are right - refs are just ‘toeing the line’ and don’t mean anything as to whether refs are corrupt/ cheating/ bias.

If calls go for us which are disputable - there’s no dispute, they were clearly right to go for us and don’t mean anything as to whether refs are corrupt/ cheating/ bias.

If your point of view is unfalsifiable you’re welcome to keep believing fairy tales but maybe don’t clog up the forum with them.

[smicer07]

On the first half Joelinton non-yellow.

IFAB have clarified the rule which a little bit complicated but Taylor was correct rather than corrupt.

https://x.com/mish_leady/status/1741946784120029455?s=46&t=XPvTQoAZugppw4anOfg19Q

Think you're misreading it. The first part is the part you need to look at.

[MonsLibpool]

On the first half Joelinton non-yellow.

IFAB have clarified the rule which a little bit complicated but Taylor was correct rather than corrupt.

https://x.com/mish_leady/status/1741946784120029455?s=46&t=XPvTQoAZugppw4anOfg19Q

He committed two professional fouls in the first half LOL. Endo's yellow was a joke compared to what Joelinton was doing.

[Baby Huey]

Just got back from the game. I've never been so wound up by a ref's performance. Every little decision went against us, he booked Trent for kicking the ball away, yet let Joelinton skate on his dragging Szoboszlai back in an attempt to stop an attack. People will say he gave us two pens...he had no choice. Every other little decision went against us.

I see people saying there's no bias, they can only be from somewhere that's not Liverpool. Scousers are hated in Manchester, anyone who say's the likes of Taylor are incompetent, nothing more, are nothing more than enablers,useful idiots as Stalin once said.

[Fitzy.]

Think you're misreading it. The first part is the part you need to look at.

The highlighted bit is literally what happened. It wasn’t DOGSO.

[Andy82lfc]

On the first half Joelinton non-yellow.

IFAB have clarified the rule which a little bit complicated but Taylor was correct rather than corrupt.

https://x.com/mish_leady/status/1741946784120029455?s=46&t=XPvTQoAZugppw4anOfg19Q

That’s garbage for me. Hundreds of times the ref has dished out a yellow next time the game is stopped after advantage is played. Even Dean went back on what he originally said first half and completely contradicted himself, confirming they all don’t have a clue.

That aside I don’t believe there was necessarily anything massively out of place in this game. Taylor for me never gives us many 50/50s etc but he thankfully didn’t pull out any whoppers today that changed the game.

[wige]

If he's biased, he's shit at that as well.

[MonsLibpool]

The highlighted bit is literally what happened. It wasn’t DOGSO.

He stopped a counter. It's a yellow.

[Fitzy.]

He stopped a counter. It's a yellow.

He interfered with a promising attack. It’s literally what happened so no yellow.

Either way, given the complicated nature of the law, it’s definitely not evidence of bias.

[Bastion Of Invincibility]

If you can't see it at this point, I'm just going to assume you never will and there's not much point having a debate.

[naYoRHa2b]

Just got back from the game. I've never been so wound up by a ref's performance. Every little decision went against us, he booked Trent for kicking the ball away, yet let Joelinton skate on his dragging Szoboszlai back in an attempt to stop an attack. People will say he gave us two pens...he had no choice. Every other little decision went against us.

I see people saying there's no bias, they can only be from somewhere that's not Liverpool. Scousers are hated in Manchester, anyone who say's the likes of Taylor are incompetent, nothing more, are nothing more than enablers,useful idiots as Stalin once said.

Moron.

Sound like the kind of idiot that worships Kevin Hilton's leccy boxes.

[Skeeve]

Taylor is clearly bias and always has been.

The fact some on here are following rat boys comments is truly pathetic.

Both pens have clear contact and both fall the next time that leg hits the ground. VAR or the ref aren’t doing us any favours  they are just toeing the line.

Yet no yellows for Joelinton first half are not reffing by the book and clearly against what should be done. That’s the difference it’s not that hard to grasp for fucks sake. Well unless people are swallowing agendas from rat boy that is.

The idea that just because they don't cheat us out of every single decision in every game is somehow evidence of them merely being incompetent just seems flawed, simple incompetence would average out at both sides suffering somewhat similarly, but we have so much evidence from just this season to show that isn't the case.

[Redley]

You guys are busy raging about yellow cards not given whilst ignoring the major decisions which made a demonstrable impact on the game both going for us. It’s very odd.

I think people are a bit pissed (not raging, bit odd) because we played a yard dog of a side who had a game plan of fouling, diving and time wasting and a referee who helped massively. That we won the game was despite the referee. Considering Mac is only just back from a game against a similar team, I think it’s pretty justified to be fucked off with a performance like that from a referee.

We won because we played fantastically. I imagine if we’d miraculously beaten Spurs you’d have been on here telling everyone to just ignore the Diaz debacle because we won anyway, and if the officials had actually been dodgy we wouldn’t have.

[JP!]

If you can't see it at this point, I'm just going to assume you never will and there's not much point having a debate.

Yeah to be honest I don't see the point of this thread.  Those who think it's corrupt still will, those who won't will continue to mock those who do, and it'll achieve nothing.

[Knight]

Yeah to be honest I don't see the point of this thread.  Those who think it's corrupt still will, those who won't will continue to mock those who do, and it'll achieve nothing.

And those who think it’s corrupt will continue to mock those who don’t. They’re useful idiots and enablers.

[Baby Huey]

Moron.

Sound like the kind of idiot that worships Kevin Hilton's leccy boxes.

That's constructive. Wildean drollery at it's finest.

[The Final Third]

This is why people need to shutup about corruption. People bleating about refs being against us all game... when we've been given 2 penalties. It's just bizarre. Yes some yellows were annoying but honestly. Be quiet.

No!

[Red Beret]

Funny how it's now a complicated rule that Taylor got right in this instance. Watch him get it wrong in other games.

That said it's not like the game wasn't in our own hands. We battered them.

[Pistolero]

Bent as fuck.

[KevLFC]

Bent as fuck.

Its not. Wouldn't a bent one not give us a pen as both looked soft? If the pens where the other way around and say it was Gordon we be on page 20 now calling for Taylor to be sacked.

[Red Wanderer]

He stopped a counter. It's a yellow.

It’s not, they changed it last season (I think?). Basically, you can’t book a player for stopping a dangerous attack anymore, if the ref plays on (as they haven’t then stopped the attack).

More frustrating that he played quite marginal advantages twice, when we’d have rather had the free-kick and the player booked. The second time, we should have been taking a free-kick around the time they were scoring from a corner.

[Schmidt]

Its not. Wouldn't a bent one not give us a pen as both looked soft? If the pens where the other way around and say it was Gordon we be on page 20 now calling for Taylor to be sacked.

Not saying it's bent or not but neither penalty was soft, both had very clear contact.

[MonsLibpool]

It’s not, they changed it last season (I think?). Basically, you can’t book a player for stopping a dangerous attack anymore, if the ref plays on (as they haven’t then stopped the attack).

More frustrating that he played quite marginal advantages twice, when we’d have rather had the free-kick and the player booked. The second time, we should have been taking a free-kick around the time they were scoring from a corner.

One of them wasn't really an advantage.  We clearly stopped for the foul but Taylor was determined to not book Joelinton. I don't know how a player can commit so many fouls without being booked.

A Liverpool player certainly can't do that. Can't you remember when Thiago used to get booked by the same refs after 2 minutes?

[KevLFC]

Not saying it's bent or not but neither penalty was soft, both had very clear contact.

There was contact but a bent ref could easily have overturned it. I see both pens similar to the one Quansah gave away at Palace. I just don't think refs are consistent. Trent gets booked for booting the ball away but Nunez did something similar and I even thought Nunez showed more dissent than any of our players that where booked!

[decosabute]

The idea that just because they don't cheat us out of every single decision in every game is somehow evidence of them merely being incompetent just seems flawed, simple incompetence would average out at both sides suffering somewhat similarly, but we have so much evidence from just this season to show that isn't the case.

Agree wholeheartedly.

I don't think Taylor is corrupt. But he definitely has some conscious or unconscious biases, and his decisions this evening were appalling and mostly against us.

He gave the pens because he couldn't not give them. Any other chance he got it, he fucked with us and tried to help Newcastle.

That new rule (which I'd never heard of until his evening) about not booking someone when you wave advantage is absolute shite. Unless you're in on goal if play continues, most teams in most situations would prefer to just get the FK and have the guy be booked.

[Schmidt]

There was contact but a bent ref could easily have overturned it. I see both pens similar to the one Quansah gave away at Palace. I just don't think refs are consistent. Trent gets booked for booting the ball away but Nunez did something similar and I even thought Nunez showed more dissent than any of our players that where booked!

Nobody's overturning either of those, there was solid contact on both and it's only the delayed reaction that has led to any debate (from very biased sources).

[kavah]

This is why people need to shutup about corruption. People bleating about refs being against us all game... when we've been given 2 penalties. It's just bizarre. Yes some yellows were annoying but honestly. Be quiet.

that's a mad shout mate, this thread is more nuanced than that, it's about bias, and how hard it is for human nature to overcome that, like the refs being paid by Man City's owners, or the TV companies hammering us with the 12:30s, or the VAR refs not wanting to undermine their colleagues. And yet you think 2 stonewall legit pens being given and not overruled is proof there isn't bias. as I said mad shout 

[WhereAngelsPlay]

that's a mad shout mate, this thread is more nuanced than that, it's about bias, and how hard it is for human nature to overcome that, like the refs being paid by Man City's owners, or the TV companies hammering us with the 12:30s, or the VAR refs not wanting to undermine their colleagues. And yet you think 2 stonewall legit pens being given and not overruled is proof there isn't bias. as I said mad shout 

That's because he is mad.

[Gili Gulu]

This is the second time we've played Newcastle and in both games Joelinton has just run around clogging people with complete impunity. I think in the away game he set a PL record for the most fouls in a game without getting a card, it was completely ridiculous then and it was the same tonight.

It's almost like Refs deliberately choose whether to be strict or let things go deliberately to hinder us, because there was only one way Newcastle were getting anything from that game and that was by kicking us off the park.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far in this thread is I think it's considered a badge of honour amongst the PGMOL to referee a game at Anfield and to not "let the crowd referee the game". There are certain referees who definitely take this attitude in our home games. Martin Atkinson and Tierney are prime examples

The problem is that they don't take the same attitude to Old Trafford, the Etihad or Stamford Bridge. Referees get stick for being a "homer" at Anfield, but they don't at other grounds, so while not actually consisting of bias against us, it's a lack of a home effect on referees for us that other teams do get.

I think I've seen somewhere stats whereby we get more penalties per action in the box away from home than we get at  Anfield.

Edit: Here's an article in the Independent quoting Paul Tomkins from five years ago:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/liverpool-latest-news-jurgen-klopp-penalty-record-anfield-stoke-highlights-champions-league-a8328116.html

"Paul Tomkins is a Liverpool supporter. He also analyses statistics and writes about his findings on his own website. He thinks the pattern runs deeper. Since 2003, Liverpool have won only half of their penalties at Anfield. Meanwhile, every other club that has been in the Premier League in that period have won between sixty and seventy-five per-cent of their penalties at home."

Another stat in which Liverpool are such an outlier that there's really only one conclusion to be drawn.

[newterp]

One of them wasn't really an advantage.  We clearly stopped for the foul but Taylor was determined to not book Joelinton. I don't know how a player can commit so many fouls without being booked.

A Liverpool player certainly can't do that. Can't you remember when Thiago used to get booked by the same refs after 2 minutes?

That was wild. All our players stopped because we had a great free kick coming. Taylor insisted we play on.

[kavah]

This is the second time we've played Newcastle and in both games Joelinton has just run around clogging people with complete impunity. I think in the away game he set a PL record for the most fouls in a game without getting a card, it was completely ridiculous then and it was the same tonight.

It's almost like Refs deliberately choose whether to be strict or let things go deliberately to hinder us, because there was only one way Newcastle were getting anything from that game and that was by kicking us off the park.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far in this thread is I think it's considered a badge of honour amongst the PGMOL to referee a game at Anfield and to not "let the crowd referee the game". There are certain referees who definitely take this attitude in our home games. Martin Atkinson and Tierney are prime examples

The problem is that they don't take the same attitude to Old Trafford, the Etihad or Stamford Bridge. Referees get stick for being a "homer" at Anfield, but they don't at other grounds, so while not actually consisting of bias against us, it's a lack of a home effect on referees for us that other teams do get.

I think I've seen somewhere stats whereby we get more penalties per action in the box away from home than we get at  Anfield.

Edit: Here's an article in the Independent quoting Paul Tomkins from five years ago:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/liverpool-latest-news-jurgen-klopp-penalty-record-anfield-stoke-highlights-champions-league-a8328116.html

"Paul Tomkins is a Liverpool supporter. He also analyses statistics and writes about his findings on his own website. He thinks the pattern runs deeper. Since 2003, Liverpool have won only half of their penalties at Anfield. Meanwhile, every other club that has been in the Premier League in that period have won between sixty and seventy-five per-cent of their penalties at home."

Another stat in which Liverpool are such an outlier that there's really only one conclusion to be drawn.

Great point. Neil Atkinson (TAW), has mentioned it tonight:

[they] rock up to Anfield and feel like they need to show they aren't swayed by the crowd. That is making them make incorrect mundane decisions. It is a problem. I wish I had a solutio

[Knight]

that's a mad shout mate, this thread is more nuanced than that, it's about bias, and how hard it is for human nature to overcome that, like the refs being paid by Man City's owners, or the TV companies hammering us with the 12:30s, or the VAR refs not wanting to undermine their colleagues. And yet you think 2 stonewall legit pens being given and not overruled is proof there isn't bias. as I said mad shout 

In this game specifically, one where the most important calls went our way, has met with post after post of people calling the refs bent or some variation. It’s just fans venting their frustration but it’s silly. We’ve even had seeming proof that the ref was entirely right not to penalise Joelinton with a yellow because we were able to play on - and it was a very good advantage to play. So one of the main pieces of evidence ‘showing’ the refs are corrupt turns out to be fans not understanding the rules - as per Fitzy’s OP. If a game like this has post after post of guff about corruption/ cheating/ bias when is a game not going to have it? It’s a classic eg of the problem, which is posters jumping to corruption claims on the basis of very little. I wouldn’t have posted what I did after some of the awful calls we’ve had against us this season but last night was just ridiculous.

[Knight]

That's because he is mad.

Poster after poster thinks it’s blatant that the ref was cheating last night but it’s those who don’t think he was who are mad. Reminds me of the HG Wells story the country of the blind.

[Knight]

This is the second time we've played Newcastle and in both games Joelinton has just run around clogging people with complete impunity. I think in the away game he set a PL record for the most fouls in a game without getting a card, it was completely ridiculous then and it was the same tonight.

It's almost like Refs deliberately choose whether to be strict or let things go deliberately to hinder us, because there was only one way Newcastle were getting anything from that game and that was by kicking us off the park.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far in this thread is I think it's considered a badge of honour amongst the PGMOL to referee a game at Anfield and to not "let the crowd referee the game". There are certain referees who definitely take this attitude in our home games. Martin Atkinson and Tierney are prime examples

The problem is that they don't take the same attitude to Old Trafford, the Etihad or Stamford Bridge. Referees get stick for being a "homer" at Anfield, but they don't at other grounds, so while not actually consisting of bias against us, it's a lack of a home effect on referees for us that other teams do get.

I think I've seen somewhere stats whereby we get more penalties per action in the box away from home than we get at  Anfield.

Edit: Here's an article in the Independent quoting Paul Tomkins from five years ago:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/liverpool-latest-news-jurgen-klopp-penalty-record-anfield-stoke-highlights-champions-league-a8328116.html

"Paul Tomkins is a Liverpool supporter. He also analyses statistics and writes about his findings on his own website. He thinks the pattern runs deeper. Since 2003, Liverpool have won only half of their penalties at Anfield. Meanwhile, every other club that has been in the Premier League in that period have won between sixty and seventy-five per-cent of their penalties at home."

Another stat in which Liverpool are such an outlier that there's really only one conclusion to be drawn.

Thank goodness for the reffing last night then where the referee refused to allow this attitude to dominate his decision making and gave 2 penalties. Right?

[Historical Fool]

Yeah to be honest I don't see the point of this thread.  Those who think it's corrupt still will, those who won't will continue to mock those who do, and it'll achieve nothing.

It’s important though. Maybe some will change their minds?

The reaction by some people to referees is in my opinion not healthy and not safe. You had posters calling for what he or she perceived as corrupt referees to be ‘sent to Gaza’ - what’s that about? Also see the abuse that the poor bloke Simon Hooper received on Instagram. If behaviour like that can be avoided by moving the needle even one poster at a time, Fitzy’s OP might be worth it.

Just my view, it’s looking like it’ll hopefully be a nice morning today, we should all just enjoy the weather and not think of the negativity …

[Avens]

Those who are arguing against Knight by saying Taylor had to give those penalties are talking nonsense. He really didn't. They both look like penalties to me and they were correctly given, but there are plenty who think otherwise and just that fact by its nature means he could have got away with not giving it. I think he had a weird game where he got the major calls right, but got lots of marginal things wrong.

I hate the grand conspiracy chat, but acknowledge that subconscious bias can have an impact on refereeing. It's one reason I think referees should swap countries. It massively reduces the potential for that kind of subconscious bias.

[Historical Fool]

Those who are arguing against Knight by saying Taylor had to give those penalties are talking nonsense. He really didn't. They both look like penalties to me and they were correctly given, but there are plenty who think otherwise and just that fact by its nature means he could have got away with not giving it. I think he had a weird game where he got the major calls right, but got lots of marginal things wrong.

I hate the grand conspiracy chat, but acknowledge that subconscious bias can have an impact on refereeing. It's one reason I think referees should swap countries. It massively reduces the potential for that kind of subconscious bias.

Swapping countries is in my view impractical for two main reasons. We all acknowledge that communication with players is key to having games flow and preventing ridiculous outcomes. How many foreign referees are fluent in English, and how many English referees are fluent in Italian or Spanish just to name a few? Yes, the CL has cross-border teams but these are one-offs, can they do it week on week? Who will pay for increased costs of travel, visa apps, etc?

The other thing is subconscious bias. Maybe it won’t be possible to pinpoint it to a discernible degree like with the doubts over allegiance based on if a certain referee comes from the greater Manchester area. But referees of a certain age will no doubt have grown up watching and supporting Liverpool as a second team when Liverpool won everything. Or Everton. Or Arsenals, romanced by the Invincibles. Or United, for many referees now in their late 30s. Or Chelsea or City for those even younger. It is also highly unlikely that many of them would have even heard of Sheffield United, Luton, or Portsmouth to name a few. Meaning subconsciously, there will always be a bias towards teams they’ve heard of rather than not, meaning big clubs will get more decisions in their favour - a trend we see now in any case.

I don’t think the infrastructure is in place for referee exchanges, at least not in the short to medium term …